Need advice on the dreaded OPP (her idea).

Mbalmr71

New member
My wife (37 bi) and I (49 str) have been married 9 years. We are rock solid, ride or die, so not looking for anyone to tell me to get out. That won't happen. We were best friends first and she told me about her bi-sexuality well before we got in a relationship. I have always been enthusiastically supportive of this. We discussed being open to her having relationships with women and about 4 years ago she took the plunge. When she started I did a great deal of research and introspection. In the beginning it was easy for me to be supportive because she had needs and desires that I simply could not meet and I was 100% behind her having those needs met. Initially she said she was reluctant to try because she was afraid I would use it as an excuse to see other women. I did not think much of it at the time and had not yet read anything about the One Penis Policy. The other thing she told me that was a bit odd was that she just wanted to have sex with women but not a romantic relationship. She also has said many times that she can't have sex with someone without feeling a connection.
As I mentioned, I did a lot of reading and forum surfing with regard to Polyamory, ENM and swinging. I did a lot of introspection and a bit of a self inventory about what I was open to and what I wanted with regard to my own sexuality. What really helped me understand myself was taking gender out of the equation, My current feeling is that having sex with other people is having sex with other people regardless of gender. Also, I am 100% fine if she catches feelings for someone. I personally believe that there is not enough love in the world and the heart wants what it wants. I have told her this. When she has dates and relationships with other women I feel a great deal of compersion. When she is seeing other women it also boosts our own sex life. However, what I began to understand was that my eagerness to support her had eclipsed my ability to consider my own needs and desires.
Like many, she took a COVID break but we got the jab and she has been more active in seeking out partners. She has a second date tonight as a matter of fact. Things are a little different now. I still support her in this and in no way want her to stop. Most of her bi experience before us had always been threesomes and being able to experience this one on one without a male contingency has been a game changer. I would never want to take that away from her. However, this has gotten a bit harder for me since I have begun to accept my own needs and desires. In a nutshell, I would love to be more sexually open but with her. I don't have a great desire to engage in an outside relationship on my own. I would enjoy swinging, we have dipped a toe but she wrinkles her nose because she does not want to interact with other men. I reminded her that there are all kinds of play styles in swinger communities and ours is not that odd she still is pretty dismissive about it. I would enjoy having MFF with her, without becoming "unicorn hunters" of course. She is quick to dismiss this because, in her mind, it's too hard to find. I would also be open to a poly triad, or longer term FWB for us both. In the end there is not much I am not open to.
The bottom line is I am feeling the disequity and unfairness of her using an OPP to keep me Mono. The other issue is that I have a much higher libido than she does. By her own description she is only horny 2-4 days a month and that's not weekly, that's days in a row. I did tell her recently that if she only wants to have sex a few days a month that it's pretty hard for me to want to share any of them. I have discussed all of this with her. I told her recently that I felt I was doing everything I could to support her meeting a need that I could not while she knew I had needs that were not being met that she could meet but chose not to. She did tell me her therapist had recently told her that she needed to come to a place where she could accept me having other partners. Dating on my own is not my first second or third choice but it seeming like it may be my only one. I don't think she could handle it well.
What I really want is to explore other partners with her but I am having trouble getting her to be truly honest about how she feels. She says she is open to having MFF interaction but she is dismissive of any of the ways that could actually happen. She also has said that she has no issue with me having sex with another woman but feels jealous of my time and attention being spent elsewhere. The only time a possibility of that happening was discussed it was regarding a mutual friend and she low key freaked out. I just don't really know where to go from here. There is zero chance of me ending the relationship over this. Do I just keep the status quo and continue to ignore my own needs or is there a better way forward. WWYD?
 
The bottom line is I am feeling the disequity and unfairness of her using an OPP to keep me Mono.

This is not really what OPP means. This is more like half-open, or one-sided open. One Penis Policy would be like if she wanted to date guys but you didn't "allow" it. A One Vagina Policy or OVP would be like if you both agreed to only date guys, and she was the "only vagina" involved. If you dated only women and she dated only women, you would still be the only penis involved.

Personally, I find this kind of terminology gross and dehumanizing, as it reduces people to a set of genitalia, but I realize that people use it a lot to describe certain situations.
 
Do I just keep the status quo and continue to ignore my own needs or is there a better way forward. WWYD?

I do not think it is a good idea to give up your freedom to advocate for yourself. If she needs time, and you are okay with giving her time, than by all means. If at some point she gives you an ultimatum, and says "you must stop advocating for yourself, or else I will break up with you". You can then decide to give up your freedom to advocate for yourself and live with the pain, to whatever degree it persists. Once you have vehimately corned yourself into a relationship, I don't see any better options...
 
Do you mean that she wants a poly relationship for herself but not for you? Sorry, I'm having trouble understanding who wants what here.
Yes that about sums it up. Sorry for the word vomit but had to get a lot out. The TLDR is that she wants to be able to see women but does not want me to. Her reasoning is that it's not the same because I am not bi. I truly do not think its about gender. At this point I am not really sure what I want for me but I feel like I need to defend my freedom to find out.
 
I do not think it is a good idea to give up your freedom to advocate for yourself. If she needs time, and you are okay with giving her time, than by all means. If at some point she gives you an ultimatum, and says "you must stop advocating for yourself, or else I will break up with you". You can then decide to give up your freedom to advocate for yourself and live with the pain, to whatever degree it persists. Once you have vehimately corned yourself into a relationship, I don't see any better options...
Thank you for that. Using the term advocate really resonated with me. I'm cool with giving it some time. I am not even sure what my end would look like. However, I feel like I do need to plant my flag in this and at least protect my own needs and freedom.
 
This will be dependant on where you live in the world and the exact needs but would legal sex work be an option for your needs to be met with your partner with the MFF dynamic? It isn't swinging or unicorn hunting as you put it and would be all above the board and negotiated up front.
 
This will be dependant on where you live in the world and the exact needs but would legal sex work be an option for your needs to be met with your partner with the MFF dynamic? It isn't swinging or unicorn hunting as you put it and would be all above the board and negotiated up front.
Not legal here. While the option has some logic and I know that it is legal, ethical and acceptable elsewhere. That being said, it carries a lot of stigma and association with human trafficking which my wife and I have substantial feelings about. With her, just about everything sounds like fun. Without, not nearly as much. I do find myself daydreaming about oneday having a ploy triad but she will have to grow to the point she accepts having feelings about her female partners. It will be interesting to see what happens.
 
Let me repeat what I understand in my own words. Correct me if I get anything wrong. Maybe it helps you to see it like bullet list. I make it blue just to visually block it off.

Limit

You and wife and committed and won't break up.

Wife stuff

  • She wanted to have sex with women but not a romantic relationship.
  • She can't have sex with someone without feeling a connection.
    • You talked and opened up the marriage so she could explore.
      • She's been exploring on her own with your support.
      • Before COVID, she was exploring her bi side in threesomes
      • After COVID shots, she's now dating just women without it being in a threesome thing
Your stuff

  • You continnue to be supportive of wife exploring.
  • But you realized you were so busy supporting wife wanting to explore her bisexual things that you forgot about your own sex life.
  • You have been neglecting you.
    • You'd to address that now.
    • Willing to go slow, but want to know it IS a work in progress and not just on the shelf forever.
Problems
  • You have a high libido.
    • Wife only wants to share sex 2-4 days a month, and those are a window of connected days. Not like weekly.
  • Communication is a challenge.
    • Now that you are thinking about your sex life, you are frustrated that wife won't give you plain answers.
    • You are also feeling like she's been keeping you in an One Vagina Policy thing. (<--- To me it seems like she hasn't been but it just ends up feeling that way. Because you haven't been advocating for your side well, and she says nothing and doesn't bring it up because the personal work around that is maybe daunting to her. )
Considering New Ideas
  • Wife shared that her therapist had recently told her that she needed to come to a place where she could accept you having other partners.
  • Dating on your own is not you first, second, or third choice.
  • You had wanted to do swing, poly triad, or shared FWB with wife.
  • But you seem willing to start considering dating on your own more seriously now.
    • You worry wife won't handle it well. You expect her to....work on that with therapist?
    • You expect yourself to... go slow? But get on with it? Something else?
Wife's Position Today
  • Says she is ok with you sharing sex with other women. (What's stopping you then?)
  • She struggles with jealousy thinking about you spending time and attention in a more "boyfriend, girlfriend, romantic" kind of way with someone else. (So she feels jealousy sometimes. And? Why does this stop you from seeking a long term poly triad to be in with two new people or long term FWB?)
  • Thinking about you dating mutual friends kinda freaks her out.
    • You are/are not willing to skip dating friends and stick to dating new people.


Is that about right? If so...

Although there's some info gaps there you might need more conversation with wife to fill in?

I think the best way forward is to advocate for yourself and let go of the desire to do stuff together with wife like swinging, being a poly triad together with a third person, or sharing an FWB together. She's not ready for that right now or just not wanting it. And you can't force people to do stuff they don't want to do.

I know you want to do stuff together, but if she's not really into that? You can't change that. What you can change is YOUR willingness to seek your own FWB, GF, swing partner, whatever is you like best.

I see you worry about her ability to handle more changes... could let her deal with processing things with the therapist.

And you could get one for you too if you need extra support at this next stage of opening the marriage further so you get some elbow room too.

Do I just keep the status quo and continue to ignore my own needs or is there a better way forward. WWYD?

I would not keep status quo and continue to ignore your own needs. What for? You sound like you are getting grumpy from doing that. Who wants more of that?

I wonder if you are mistakenly parking some of the grump on wife's head rather than on yourself for getting too caught up in being supportive in her stuff to the point that you neglected your own stuff. Pull that back a little so it is more balanced.

  • You think about your stuff first, THEN her stuff. Not like selfish, but like self care.
  • She can think about her stuff first, then your stuff. Again, not like selfish, but like self care.
That way both people are getting their basics covered AND asking for help from their partner on reasonable and rational requests.

It is reasonable and rational for you to say "Ok, I've been supportive. I would like to talk about what Phase Two of Open marriage looks like so I have some space to date other people too. Could you please be willing to talk?"

Maybe you both see her therapist together to help you sort out the details of "Phase 2 of Open Marriage." Sounds like "Phase 1" went ok enough. You sound in better shape that a lot of people who show up here, honestly.

In therapy you can state you would like wife to support through Phase 2. You aren't going to be reckless and too fast about it, but at the same time? Can't expect you to put your own sex life forever on pause either.

You are willing to go slow. And you are willing for wife to pick a date on the calendar where you will just start dating. But it can't be 30 years down the line. Something between X and Y. That way you get to pick the general window you can live with.

And then she can pick the specific date inside that so she has time to do her personal prep work with her therapist. So even if she picks the very last date in the window? You know you can eventually just move forward and not be stuck on the shelf.

That would be my suggestion.

GL!

Galagirl
 
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  • Says she is ok with you sharing sex with other women. (What's stopping you then?)

I got the impression it wasn't this at all. That wife only wants open to share sex with women on her side of the relationship "because she's bi" and because husband (OP) isn't bi and doesn't want to share sex with another male, that only she, wife, gets to date.

OVP.
 
I got the impression it wasn't this at all. That wife only wants open to share sex with women on her side of the relationship

OVP.


It isn't One Vagina Policy either because if the wife dates other women, there is more than one vagina (unless she dates a non or pre op trans woman, of course).

If it needs a three-letter abbreviation, it should be OSP, for One Sided Polyamory.
 
There is no need to ignore your own needs. Just as you overcame any uncomfortable feelings about your wife seeing others one-on-one, she will have to come to terms with her feelings if you find an OSO.

Bi, straight, gay does not matter. And who knows? One day she may become interested in another man, as well. So get it out on the table. You each get to date the gender(s) of your choice. In her case, she likes men and women (and maybe non-binary folk, I don't know). She gets to date other PEOPLE. You like women. You get to date women.

People get way too hung up on gender. An open relationship is an open relationship. Fair is fair. Either way, when you're poly noobs, there may be struggles with jealousy, envy, time-sharing, quality-time needs, money, me-time, NRE, etc. Get on with that work.

BTW, she is right that just because she wants to date women does not mean y'all must seek a (unicorn... come on, that's the word here), woman to "share." That almost never works out.
 
If it needs a three-letter abbreviation, it should be OSP, for One Sided Polyamory.


That was my thought as well. This smacks of being terribly one sided. The wife must do her own internal work just as her husband has done.
 
There is no need to ignore your own needs. Just as you overcame any uncomfortable feelings about your wife seeing others one-on-one, she will have to come to terms with her feelings if you find an OSO.

Bi, straight, gay does not matter. And who knows? One day she may become interested in another man, as well. So get it out on the table. You each get to date the gender(s) of your choice. In her case, she likes men and women (and maybe non-binary folk, I don't know). She gets to date other PEOPLE. You like women. You get to date women.

People get way too hung up on gender. An open relationship is an open relationship. Fair is fair. Either way, when you're poly noobs, there may be struggles with jealousy, envy, time-sharing, quality-time needs, money, me-time, NRE, etc. Get on with that work.

BTW, she is right that just because she wants to date women does not mean y'all must seek a (unicorn... come on, that's the word here), woman to "share." That almost never works out.
Thanks for that! I agree 100% about gender. In my own work on this I had to come to a place where I ignored gender as well. I am fine if one day she has interest in other males. She says she does not have interest in men but I know that has not always been the case. For me it's about being free to explore your sexuality. I have boundaries but I do not put rules on how she interacts with the women she dates.

Also I totally get the issues and such around finding us a third. It is way easier for her to find potential partners on her own and I certainly understand that there is a remarkable difference between a threesome and a one on one interaction. Part of what brings me joy about this is that she has finally been able to have one on one experiences without a quid pro quo. I would never ask her to stop that. I just need to better articulate to her what I want so that we can be more open to the possibility and maybe put ourselves in situations where it becomes possible.
 
I got the impression it wasn't this at all. That wife only wants open to share sex with women on her side of the relationship "because she's bi" and because husband (OP) isn't bi and doesn't want to share sex with another male, that only she, wife, gets to date.

OVP.
This is kind of where I was stuck. Without all the other stuff in the way I was feeling like she was using this "OVP" as a bit of a crutch to keep me on the mono side. I was really having some feelings about her having her cake and eating it too. I am seeing this through a new lense at the moment and everyone here has been very helpful.
 
GL!

Galagirl
WOW!!! I cannot thank you enough. You did an amazing job not only with your advice but with reframing my own thoughts. All of this has been helpful but helping me look at it in a mirror like that.
There are really only 2 clarifications I wanted to make. She and I have only had one threesome with another female. She initiated it and it went very well. She has been seeing women solo for the last 5 or so years. She had several threesomes before our relationship. She kind of went in the hole after ours for two reasons. Our third was someone who worked for the same company we did (prob not the best thing). The main reason was that she had been involved with a friend of hers and her husband in the past on many occasions, caught feelings for him and broke the rules by seeing him one on one. She has gone back to her fear of this happening several times.
The other is when you asked if she was open to me having sex with other women but not romantic relationships why was I not. That came out of the last conversation we had. It was more along the lines of she does not have jealous feelings about me having sex with someone but does have those feelings about me sharing my time and attention. I get the feeling, or at least I internalize it, as she really does not want me interacting with anyone else at all. It feels like her opinion when it comes to us sharing is that nobody wants that and that she really does not want me seeing anyone else on any level. If I felt that having another partner for sex was truly an option, at the moment, I probably would.
That being said, your advice as well as others has helped me look at that through a different lense. You mentioning I was better off than most helped me realize a few things as well. The reality is that I have put all my energy into supporting her through this journey and not really considering or expressing my own needs. This new post COVID relationship has just gotten me thinking more about it. I do think she has a little more work to do on what she wants. Her new interest has been going slow and expressing fear about what happens if she catches feelings for my wife. I would like to ask my wife that question next. I think feelings and romantic connection are as natural as sexual connection. I hope my wife allows herself to embrace that at some point. I did tell her that if it was just about sex with zero emotional attachment than that just makes us swingers... or at least her. I'm digressing.
The main thing I have realized is that I should focus on 100% owning my own feelings and emotions and allow her to do the same. All I can really say right now is that I think I would like to have the same freedoms that she does. My next step is really just to tell her that and tell her how I would like that to look. I also know that we are each individuals but also a couple so what I want, what she wants and what we want may all be different things.
Lastly, I am not grumpy at all about it. Feeling the compersion and happiness for her after a long break has me wanting on this bandwagon. Where I messed up was that I was not being full disclosure with her about my feelings or desires out of fear that I would either simply be rejected or that it would cause her to feel like she needed to stop. I really have not given her a chance to process her own feelings or emotions. I also realized that I had been building a case until I felt it would be insurmountable. What I plan to do is talk to her and tell her that I want to have this experience as well, give her time to process it and then go about discussing what we both want it to look like. I will be interested in what I am able to provide in an update.

THANK YOU AGAIN!
 
I would like to ask my wife that question next. I think feelings and romantic connection are as natural as sexual connection.
For you they might but not for everyone. Some folks might feel romantic but be asexual or anywhere on the sexual spectrum with partners. Romance being as natural as sexual connection is not 1:1 universal truth and that has to be okay if it isn't for her but is for you.

The main thing I have realized is that I should focus on 100% owning my own feelings and emotions and allow her to do the same.
Good plan and add articulating these feelings too.

All I can really say right now is that I think I would like to have the same freedoms that she does.
To rephrase this is you want to renegotiate the relationship boundaries. Referring to it a freedoms makes her the oppressor and you the oppressed ergo causing an instant conflict. But you yourself have said the current relationship was negotiated and agreed so no one is being oppressed per say. You now know yourself better and need to have that new need acknowledged and allowed to grow in the relationship you have.

Feeling the compersion and happiness for her after a long break has me wanting on this bandwagon.
You do realize she might never feel compersion for you. This is something you have to be okay with on the path.

I also realized that I had been building a case until I felt it would be insurmountable.
Once again you are taking the victim role instead of the partner role in this tone. Not the goal I think you are going for but something to think about in your own feelings.
 
Glad it helped some.

A small request -- could you please be willing to make some extra paragraph breaks in future? Like hit the enter key a few times? Then it's easier to read and not like a wall of text and hopefully you get other readers/responders.


There are really only 2 clarifications I wanted to make. She and I have only had one threesome with another female. She initiated it and it went very well. She has been seeing women solo for the last 5 or so years. She had several threesomes before our relationship. She kind of went in the hole after ours for two reasons. Our third was someone who worked for the same company we did (prob not the best thing). The main reason was that she had been involved with a friend of hers and her husband in the past on many occasions, caught feelings for him and broke the rules by seeing him one on one. She has gone back to her fear of this happening several times.

Let me repeat what I understand. I have difficulty when things are not in chronological order and no names. I will name people generic fruits.
  • Apple the coworker had a threesome with Banana and Cherry.
  • Banana is Cherry's husband.
  • Cherry is your wife's friend
  • Well, Apple and Banana started seeing each other on the sly behind Cherry's back. This was cheating on agreements in that triangle over there.
Then you, wife, and Apple had your own threesome together.
  • You thought it went fine as a one time deal, though next time don't pick coworkers.
  • Wife thought it was upsetting for two reasons.
    • Next time don't pick coworkers.
    • And worrying you will cheat on agreements or that Apple will tempt you to cheat on them after she realized Apple's history.
Is that it?

If so, I'd tell your wife you will accept it she doesn't want to do threesomes with you any more because she found it too weird.

Remind wife you are not a cheater. You are not Apple. You are not Banana.

Let wife have some time and space to process her emotions around all that threesome stuff with Apple and lay it to rest.

The other is when you asked if she was open to me having sex with other women but not romantic relationships why was I not. That came out of the last conversation we had. It was more along the lines of she does not have jealous feelings about me having sex with someone but does have those feelings about me sharing my time and attention. I get the feeling, or at least I internalize it, as she really does not want me interacting with anyone else at all.

It feels like
her opinion when it comes to us sharing is that nobody wants that and that she really does not want me seeing anyone else on any level.

That's YOUR feelings I read about.

I am not reading anything like

"So after I felt that... I asked her clarifying questions. "Wife, do you mean that you don't want me interacting with anyone else at all? Like never ever Hard Limit? Or like not right now but over time could change like a Soft Limit?"

Because if you are TOO sensitive to her feelings, and start jumping to conclusions, without ACTUALLY CHECKING? It's your own doing that you are on the shelf because you put yourself there assuming things. Could work on not assuming.

Could also use "I feel" for actual emotions and "I think" for actual thoughts. Not use "I feel" and "I think" interchangeably for "I think" so your communication becomes clearer.

If you got carried away supporting her exploring, and forgot to say "I also eventually want to explore?" Or only came to realize that later? You can say "Wife, I'd like to renegotiate. I'd also like to explore on my side. When is a good time to talk?"

Even if wife did ask for an OVP and you agreed at first back then? You can change your mind. You can say "Wife, a heads up. I don't cheat on agreements. So I need to make you aware this OVP thing doesn't work for me any more. I won't be doing that any more. I'd like to renegotiate."

Rather than framing things like wife's not letting you this or that... how about you just OWN your stuff better?

And ask for changes and updates you want to see?

If I felt that having another partner for sex was truly an option, at the moment, I probably would.

Well, who is in charge of giving you the option? You, right? You are in an open marriage.

  • You would double check that this IS open on both sides since you seem unclear. And if so? You start dating other people.
  • If not open on both sides, you rectify that by updating agreements with wife first so it IS. You each do your personal work around that. And then you get on with dating other people.

Again... what's stopping you from being up front with your wife?

The main thing I have realized is that I should focus on 100% owning my own feelings and emotions and allow her to do the same.

Is this the #1 obstacle then? You and wife are kinda emotionally enmeshed and have to sort that first before you start dating other people?

Where I messed up was that I was not being full disclosure with her about my feelings or desires out of fear that I would either simply be rejected or that it would cause her to feel like she needed to stop.

Is this the other reason? Reason #2 is people here don't do clear, honest communication with each other even though spouses for many years?

Because both are in the enmeshed habit worrying about what the other one might feel, think, say, or do? (The #1 reason?)

If so...

  • Could do the work of disentanglement.
  • Could not be so emotionally enmeshed. Detach some.
  • Could improve communication.
  • Could ask for what you actually want, plain and up front.

Detaching some doesn't mean you don't care about your wife at all. It means you are sympathetic if she's having a hard time with something, but still expect her to figure out and DO HER OWN emotional management.

And same for you on your side. She can sympathize. But still expect YOU to do YOUR own personal work.

Like SO WHAT jealous? Where is surprise? It's part of the price of admission to doing open or poly relationships: Jealousy might pop up.

Ok, so how will one do their own jealousy management?

You will find ways to do yours. She will have to find ways to do hers. You can't do that work FOR her. She can't do your work FOR you. Each one has to deal with their OWN stuff.

I also know that we are each individuals but also a couple so what I want, what she wants and what we want may all be different things.

You seem to understand that you are not a CoupleBlob joined at the hip. You are each your own persons AND a couple. And that better communication is needed.

I also realized that I had been building a case until I felt it would be insurmountable.

I am not sure what this means. Do you mean you build things up in your head so big that they feel impossible to deal with?

What I plan to do is talk to her and tell her that I want to have this experience as well, give her time to process it and then go about discussing what we both want it to look like.

That sounds reasonable.

You both sound like thoughtful, careful people. You both have put some toes in the water for a few open experiences. But maybe just still finishing up the process so it's open on both sides and agreements better articulated. Could take it step by step.

I don't know if these help you any in your talks.


I'm glad you have decided to be more up front with your wife about what you want.

I hope the conversations go well.

GL!
Galagirl
 
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Okay, here is a suggestion for how to reframe this for your wife:

Sexuality is about more than just whether someone is gay/bi/straight. It's also about a person's sex drive/libido, kinkiness, and a lot of other things in that vein (all the things that create compatibility between sex partners).

So, in that sense, both you and your wife have sexual needs the other can't meet. Your wife desires sex with women. You desire more frequent sex. Therefore, you both get to be poly! (But dating separately, seeking your own partners).

Your wife needs to do the work on herself to get herself comfortable with you dating other women. As her own therapist told her.

I think your wife is right in that your preference for MFF threesomes/triads is not realistic. It's hard to find someone who's attracted to both of you, compatible with both of you, has equal feelings for both of you, etc. And, how would a triad solve your desire for more frequent sex? Would the new woman have sex with your wife on the 3 days of the month that she's horny, but have sex with you on the other 25 days? So she would be bi but have a preference for sex with a man most of the time? Or...?

I just mean, your MFF preference sounds very complicated. Why not just date other women on your own?
 
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