BoringGuy
Banned
You stop. I WAS just talking. It was absolutely on-topic and not fight-picking. If you don't like it don't look.
Need help with son hitting puberty
- Thread starter nondy2
- Start date
You stop. I WAS just talking. It was absolutely on-topic and not fight-picking. If you don't like it don't look.
nycindie
Active member
Helo, who said anything about obligation? Your posts never quite fit the conversation; they're always a little off. I never quite understand what the hell you are talking about, and it seems you don't understand what I wrote. At all. But I am not going to repeat myself. Just know that, once again, you don't get it.
BoringGuy
Banned
What kind of statement is that? Where has anyone said there's that "obligation"? NYCindie said it doesn't make sense. But since you brought it up, I think there is sort of an "obligation" to explain where you stand on an issue when you start a thread and put your views out there for the public consumption. Yes, of course, the public can't force a person to explain themselves if they decline to do so, but I fail to see what is beneficial or productive about this statement of yours I have quoted. It's like, "Thank you, Captain Obvious."
nycindie
Active member
And his response doesn't even have anything to do with what I wrote.
BoringGuy:
Thank you. As usual, your comments are kind, relevant and helpful.
A few things: I did ask the boy if he knew what abortion is -- he does. But I have to say I feel a little on the hot stop here, which, as a liberal parent, is odd. How many people in the discussion have pre-teen children? And since you are encouraging (pushing) me to be liberal, have you spoke openly about abortion, porn, transgender, gay marriage, cross-dressing and prostitution? BoringGuy, you have kids, don't you? I assume you've discussed all that with your youngsters, haven't you?
NYCindie, I do not believe abortions are like "any other medical procedure." I am entitled to label and think whatever I want, but I will explain.
1. My son is ten. He wouldn't have to make that choice for quite a few years, and feminists would say (perhaps) he can never can make that choice, only participate/advise, as a man. So the discussion is a bit premature.
2. I am anti-abortion/pro-choice (that's what I call it). I think it TOTALLY SHOULD BE LEGAL. I think every woman must make her own decision.
And... maybe I'm not pro-choice! Because I cannot sympathize with abortion in all cases. I believe that a true pro-choice person would say a women has a right to chose ANY TIME. I would say YES, theoretically, and YES, legally. However, it is not something I would always agree with. My primary issue is that women routinely abort fetuses with disabilities (even minor ones, very minor ones) because they do not want to have a disabled child. This has been particularly problematic with Downs Syndrome, as now 80% or more of people with Downs are not born. It reduces the support, financial and otherwise, for people living with Downs.
I totally understand how hard it would be to have a disabled child. However, many of these choices are ableist and based on a cosmetic want for an uber-baby. Andrew Solomon likens it to if people knew their child would be gay, many many people would abort. Although abled folks (like BoringGuy) don't get it, many disabled folks see themselves as a minority (like gay people) who deserve to be cherished and have full lives.
That's one reason why I don't like abortion. Would I say it should be illegal? No. But I do think sometimes those decisions really fucking suck, and it this case, are used to make a more homogeneous society.
Note: Before others attack, my very best friend did abort a disabled fetus. I have never harbored anger at her... but it's not something I like.
Thank you. As usual, your comments are kind, relevant and helpful.
A few things: I did ask the boy if he knew what abortion is -- he does. But I have to say I feel a little on the hot stop here, which, as a liberal parent, is odd. How many people in the discussion have pre-teen children? And since you are encouraging (pushing) me to be liberal, have you spoke openly about abortion, porn, transgender, gay marriage, cross-dressing and prostitution? BoringGuy, you have kids, don't you? I assume you've discussed all that with your youngsters, haven't you?
NYCindie, I do not believe abortions are like "any other medical procedure." I am entitled to label and think whatever I want, but I will explain.
1. My son is ten. He wouldn't have to make that choice for quite a few years, and feminists would say (perhaps) he can never can make that choice, only participate/advise, as a man. So the discussion is a bit premature.
2. I am anti-abortion/pro-choice (that's what I call it). I think it TOTALLY SHOULD BE LEGAL. I think every woman must make her own decision.
And... maybe I'm not pro-choice! Because I cannot sympathize with abortion in all cases. I believe that a true pro-choice person would say a women has a right to chose ANY TIME. I would say YES, theoretically, and YES, legally. However, it is not something I would always agree with. My primary issue is that women routinely abort fetuses with disabilities (even minor ones, very minor ones) because they do not want to have a disabled child. This has been particularly problematic with Downs Syndrome, as now 80% or more of people with Downs are not born. It reduces the support, financial and otherwise, for people living with Downs.
I totally understand how hard it would be to have a disabled child. However, many of these choices are ableist and based on a cosmetic want for an uber-baby. Andrew Solomon likens it to if people knew their child would be gay, many many people would abort. Although abled folks (like BoringGuy) don't get it, many disabled folks see themselves as a minority (like gay people) who deserve to be cherished and have full lives.
That's one reason why I don't like abortion. Would I say it should be illegal? No. But I do think sometimes those decisions really fucking suck, and it this case, are used to make a more homogeneous society.
Note: Before others attack, my very best friend did abort a disabled fetus. I have never harbored anger at her... but it's not something I like.
BoringGuy
Banned
Not having our own children has ZERO to do with us pointing out that a literate 10-year-old in modern Western society has their own resources for finding information (accurate and otherwise) that their parents do not provide or want to share in a discussion.
I'm "pushing you to be liberal"? That's just silly.
Yes, I've spoken openly about all those things. So?
No, I don't have kids. Don't like them, don't want them, didn't have them. Child-free by um, CHOICE.
Yes, I've discussed all that with my [imaginary] youngsters.
Helo
New member
Fair enough, but to me "you should be able to talk about it" with regards to a personal opinion implies that someone has an obligation to explain why they stand where they do.
BoringGuy
Banned
I understood that to mean that NYCindie thinks the OP "should be able to talk about [abortion]" with their SON, not that NYCindie was insisting that the OP has an "obligation" to justify their opinion about abortion to us.
I think you didn't read it right in context.
Helo
New member
Mmm... I take your point, but even in that context, unless you're asking someone else to accept your point of view, you have no obligation to express why you have that point of view, or why someone else should share it. That goes if the audience is us or offspring.
BoringGuy, thanks again for your intellectual, kind, and helpful insight. You bring great ideas and support to the forum. Even though you "don't like children" you must interact with a lot of them, because you are so much more knowledgeable about 10-year olds, even more knowledgeable than me (who is around them all day). It's like Virginia Woolf (who was child-free) writing about mothering in To The Lighthouse. Like her, you, Boring, have amazing knowledge and insight.
Of all the people in the forum, you have helped me that most and made me feel really good about myself. Particularly your insight to how people with disabilities should be treated (condescendingly) is so true.
Thank you!
Of all the people in the forum, you have helped me that most and made me feel really good about myself. Particularly your insight to how people with disabilities should be treated (condescendingly) is so true.
Thank you!
saintvlas22
New member
I'm "pushing you to be liberal"? That's just silly.
Yes, I've spoken openly about all those things. So?
No, I don't have kids. Don't like them, don't want them, didn't have them. Child-free by um, CHOICE.
Yes, I've discussed all that with my [imaginary] youngsters.
Not picking a fight, huh?
saintvlas22
New member
How about you not look? Follow your own advice, hypocrite.
ThatGirlInGray
New member
Which part? About ableist abortions? I agree with you that it's a horrible reason. I also understood what you meant when you said you were pro-choice but anti-abortion. I believe abortions should be legal, safe, available, and RARE. My take on when a life that deserves protection under the law starts is different from some peoples.'
If you're curious, for me, it's when the heart starts beating. No use arguing with me about it. If you're a biologist or a law-maker I MIGHT be willing to discuss it with you, but otherwise I don't care whether you agree with me or not. So, for me, by the time disability can be determined, at least, remembering when my tests were done, it's far too late for an ethical abortion, unless there's reason to believe that the baby would only endure pain and trauma after birth due to the disability. Or if the mother's life were endangered.
ThatGirl, thank you so much. So few people agree. So few people even know what ableist means.
Ironically, when my best friend had her abortion of her fetus that could have been born with a disability, her husband's Bible-toting, anti-choice family was totally for the abortion!
Ironically, when my best friend had her abortion of her fetus that could have been born with a disability, her husband's Bible-toting, anti-choice family was totally for the abortion!
nycindie
Active member
Exactly. My point was that, as I see it, being pro-choice means that one is, first and foremost, invested in people knowing what all their choices are. When one is an advocate for choice, it doesn't make sense, to me, to be tight-lipped about what options are available. So, because of that, it didn't quite compute for me that a person is pro-choice and finds it painful to talk about with her son.
In no way was I saying that the OP was "obligated" to explain her stance to us. That's ridiculous.
Again, you are off. I did not say that the OP should or should not do anything, nor that she agree with me. I was simply stating an opinion in relation to my not understanding a statement the OP made. That is all. I simply said that, in my opinion, I would think someone who is pro-choice should be able to explain what the choices are to people who need to know. Furthermore, I have never understood why it has to be an emotional thing to discuss. To me, it's just: "Here are the options."
Nondy, I do understand you better now. What you said in response to my post does make sense and now I get what you meant.
I am also child-free by choice. I do like kids, though, and kids like me. But I don't really want to be around them for long periods. I never wanted to pop any out myself. I have very strong ideas about parenting and always knew that such an enormous responsibility was not for me. I don't really think one needs to interact with many ten-year olds to know that they have access to an awful lot of info these days, or to remember what it was like to be ten-years old myself.
I do not see anyone picking a fight in this thread except you. When you first posted your "Stop" message, I had to read backwards to try and find the post where someone was picking a fight to figure out who you were scolding. I could not see what could possibly have triggered what you wrote. Nobody here was picking a fight. It's odd that you think that.
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Telling someone "Here are the options" absolutely doesn't mean you have to follow with "... and this one is the option I believe to be the right one." So no, NYCindie never said anyone had to explain, justify or even mention their opinion. Talking about abortion does not mean sharing your opinion on it.
About aborting disabled children, I remember thinking about this issue when I was looking into adoption. They ask you if you'd be willing to adopt a child with disabilities. Many people say "No."
At first I thought, "Well, that sucks." Then I thought about it, and I thought... while it does suck, the people saying "no" are being better towards the child than if they said "yes" to a responsibility they didn't understand and were not ready for, and made the child miserable. I believe no parents is better than abusive parents (whether they're abusive on purpose or not), and this way the people who say "yes" say so on an informed basis.
About abortion, I have a similar view. I think having an abortion because you are too poor to support a child, for instance, is a valid reason. Even more so when you are unable to support a child with disabilities due to your emotional state, or a lack of time and resources, because in that case you can't even decide to give up the child to adoption: as I said above, they pretty much never get adopted. So before the child even exists, while it's an embryo without the ability to suffer, you decide to end the pregnancy because you know it wouldn't be fair to them to have you as a parent.
And even if your reasoning is "I don't want a baby like that. I want a perfect baby," you're still sparing the kid from having you as a parent, and I still think that's a good thing.
Well, this is where we just have to disagree. I try to predict how another person feels about something, unless I have been through it. I would speak to people about disability or death or parenting because I have been through these. I would try not to give opinions as, say, someone other-gendered or black would do. To me, there is a difference between empathy and knowledge. I don't think you should speak to sitting down a child whom you want to love and protect, and speak to them about stuff you think has a brutality. Pro-choice is not multiple choice. Yes, I can be "pro-choice," and think abortion is harsh, and I do.
Tonberry, I totally understand where you are coming from, and it's a complex issue. By the way, there is an adoption agency specifically for infants with Downs. The issue, for example, with Downs is that abortion is now the knee-jerk reaction. Women are expected by their doctors to abort and the doctors rarely discuss the options at all.
I can see wanting to abort a child with a severe disability, but a child who is Deaf? Who has an extra finger? Who is missing half an arm? Why? Because society does not accept these folks, just like society doesn't accept homosexuality. I guarantee if there were a gay test, there would be a lot more abortions.
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