Negotiation: healthy boundaries vs manipulative ultimatums

M

MsEmotional

Member
I read all the time about how polyamory allows people to negotiate for their needs and design the relationships that they want, rather than the relationships that are pre-designed by the relationship escalator. Does anyone have any resources about how to do that? Like specific guidance about how to negotiate for what you want in an ethical way?

Ponytail and I have been growing a D/s dynamic over the last year. It has been really amazing, but it has also been really intense. I have recently come to the conclusion that I don’t know that I will ever be able to be okay with him seeing other people if he is submissive to me. It’s hard to understand — at least for other poly dominants that I have talked to — but it is impossible for me to simultaneously “own” him and allow him to seek out other partners. It just fucks with my head.

So, it seems that we need to choose one or the other. Not wanting to limit his ability to see other partners and not wanting to put him in a position where he would be tempted to cheat, I told him that I thought I should stop being dominant with him. It seemed like the ethical choice. Certainly more ethical than telling him he has to be monogamous when I am not.

But as soon as I suggested it and he said he understood, I completely regretted it. I don’t WANT to lose the D/s dynamic, I just feel like I have worked so hard to make it work with our ethics on relationships and it just....isn’t. So I immediately realized that what I had suggested as the “ethical” decision wasn’t what I wanted. I feel like what I was really doing was giving him an ultimatum — you can either have non-monogamy or you can have me as a fucking amazing mistress, but you can’t have both.

I feel like there should be a way for us to both negotiate for what we want, but I don’t know where to start.

(PS, we have communicated about all of this, of course. He understands the cognitive disssonance I feel as a dominant with a non-monogamous submissive. He has tried to explain to me that he just feels differently — that to him he can still feel owned by me even if he is in a relationship with someone else. I recognize that he feels differently than I do, but the idea just doesn’t sit right with me.)
 
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While there is often a way to healthily negotiate boundaries, that doesn't actually mean that all healthy boundaries result in a mutually agreeable solution.

While I realize that you ultimately suggested giving up your dynamic in order to be fair even though it wasn't what you wanted, I personally think you did the right thing. One could argue that it's ponytail's choice as well between the 2 options, the fact that he agreed and didn't object tells you that he really does want to be able to date others. And knowing that he eventually wants kids, etc. I think dragging out the D/s dynamic for longer when it may well lead to him wanting to break it down the road anyway so that he can live the life he wants... Well that will just be harder.

And part of being a reaponsible Dom means making sure that you are not bringing harm to your sub. So if having a D/s dynamic is doing that to either of you, then you are doing the kind thing already.

Aside: my advice would have been to see if you can work on figuring out how to balance the ownership vs poly dynamic, but you've already stated it just isn't for you so I don't see the value in trying to tell you that you should force it.
 
Like specific guidance about how to negotiate for what you want in an ethical way?
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I mean this kindly ok? :eek:

  • Some things cannot be negotiated.
  • Just because you are compatible with someone to practice poly together doesn't automatically mean that you are ALSO compatible to practice kink with them.
  • Sometimes doing the ethical thing is a pain, but one does it anyway.

It is impossible for me to simultaneously “own” him and allow him to seek out other partners. It just fucks with my head.
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For you it is IMPOSSIBLE. That means there is no negotiation to be had. Could accept your personal limitation and not try to change it.

You also sound like maybe you are mourning a loss, and perhaps in the bargaining stage of grief and still trying to make it happen. Like "If I only did this or that... then I could...."

So, it seems that we need to choose one or the other. Not wanting to limit his ability to see other partners and not wanting to put him in a position where he would be tempted to cheat, I told him that I thought I should stop being dominant with him. It seemed like the ethical choice. Certainly more ethical than telling him he has to be monogamous when I am not.
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I think this is the best choice in the circumstances. You might be disappointed with it right now. Could take the time to sit with it and grieve the loss.

So I immediately realized that what I had suggested as the “ethical” decision wasn’t what I wanted.
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Sometimes doing the most ethical thing ISN'T what you want most. You don't do the right thing only when handy, easy, or convenient. You do it because it is the correct thing to do in the situation.

I feel like what I was really doing was giving him an ultimatum — you can either have non-monogamy or you can have me as a fucking amazing mistress, but you can’t have both.
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I think what you are doing is stating your personal limitations. I think it is fair to make him aware of what you can and cannot handle or do. That's not giving him an ultimatum like "Do what I want or else we break up!"

It's accepting you are not Superman or Wonder Woman. And you don't have to be.

He understands the cognitive disssonance I feel as a dominant with a non-monogamous submissive. He has tried to explain to me that he just feels differently — that to him he can still feel owned by me even if he is in a relationship with someone else.
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That is how he feels. He still feels owned by you even if he's seeing other people.

You don't share that feeling. If he sees other people, you feel like you don't own him entirely.

Not compatible kink styles/feelings.

I'm sorry you are struggling with this right now. I still think you did the right thing though.

Galagirl
 
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I agree with what Galagirl says...

I am not compatible with Butch in the Kink department AT ALL. I wish he would go get those needs met somewhere else instead of pushing Kink on me. I am very vanilla.

It is up to Butch to figure what his next steps are.
 
I wouldn't consider what you said to be an ultimatum. Like Galagirl said, an ultimatum would be "Do this or else." You gave Ponytail a *choice* and a boundary: "If you're my submissive, I don't feel that I can allow you to see other people. Would you rather continue as my submissive and be monogamous, or end the D/s dynamic and see other people?" The choice being between the two possible dynamics, and the boundary being that you can't handle a nonmonogamous submissive.

You did what you needed to do in order to maintain a relationship with him, and I give you bonus points for wanting to make a decision that wouldn't impinge on his freedom to choose his relationship model.
 
That's a very tough realisation to come to, and I feel bad for you.

Plus, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Ponytail want a child? And you're pregnant? And the kid might be his biologically? (Even if it is Glasses' kid, might not Ponytail want to father it?)

Could it be pregnancy hormones adding to your need to keep him mono to you? Are you nesting? Do you want a guarantee he will be available to care for you and the infant/child when it is born? Not distracted by other lovers, absent literally or virtually, who are either his Dom/me or his sub, or just basically vanilla equals?

Many people give up practicing poly when their children are young, or when a female is pregnant, needing extra care. We fall in love with our infants. We are protective. We are deep in NRE with the fetus/newborn! Hard to handle 2 new love/infatuation relationships at once.

Right now you're settled with your 2 men. Adding more at this time might feel like a lack of stability needed in the nest. You're putting it down to your Domminess/ownership needs, but maybe it's the pregnancy?
 
Magdlyn said:
That's a very tough realisation to come to, and I feel bad for you.

Plus, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Ponytail want a child? And you're pregnant? And the kid might be his biologically? (Even if it is Glasses' kid, might not Ponytail want to father it?)

Could it be pregnancy hormones adding to your need to keep him mono to you? Are you nesting? Do you want a guarantee he will be available to care for you and the infant/child when it is born? Not distracted by other lovers, absent literally or virtually, who are either his Dom/me or his sub, or just basically vanilla equals?

Many people give up practicing poly when their children are young, or when a female is pregnant, needing extra care. We fall in love with our infants. We are protective. We are deep in NRE with the fetus/newborn! Hard to handle 2 new love/infatuation relationships at once.

Right now you're settled with your 2 men. Adding more at this time might feel like a lack of stability needed in the nest. You're putting it down to your Domminess/ownership needs, but maybe it's the pregnancy?
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http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showpost.php?p=393577&postcount=106
 
My reply will probably soind harsh, bit it's not meant to be.

Have you tried fixing this within yourself instead of trying to alter your environment? Nothing is impossible. When it comes to jealousy you have to work that out. You can't make people change to fit you. By quitting the kink aspect you are just running away from the problem.

I do understand. When I met Sprite she had a Master. She wore a permanent collar, the whole bit. That took some getting used to, but I respected it. What I ended up doing was treating it like a girlfriend who liked to do scenes, as opposed to the usual TPE. I don't know how deep that part of your relationship is. Technically, you could "allow" him to play with others, but only have one Mistress, which would be you. I see nothing wrong with that form of hierarchy in poly bdsm.

ETA:

I also find it helpful to concentrate on my relationship with a partner and not their other relationships.
 
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Hi MsEmotional,

I am wondering if the issue here is that you don't want Ponytail to see other people, period. Like maybe overshadowing him with the idea of you withdrawing as a Dominant wasn't done in hopes that he would be startled out of seeing other people. In other words, him "accepting" the end of your D/s dynamic wasn't the outcome you wanted, the outcome you wanted was that he would stop seeing other people. This wouldn't be a conscious phenomenon on your part, it would be subconscious or unconscious. Without the D/s factor, you may feel uncomfortable about being poly while wanting your partner/s to be mono. But for some people, that's how it is. The problem isn't changing yourself, it is finding (a) partner/s who can live with that. Who can be mono while allowing you to be poly. There is nothing wrong with that as long as it works for the people involved.

The difficult part comes in deciding whether to keep seeing Ponytail. Because it seems to be for certain that he will be seeing other people. You have to figure out if you can stand for him to do that. Whether you'll be his Dominant at the same time is really your own decision. He's already decided that he's okay with losing you as a Domme. Just so he can keep seeing other people, that seems to be his priority. How do you feel about him making that his priority? even above the D/s dynamic you had with him? Do you want to see him go out with other people, and give up your Dominant position at the same time? That sounds like a double loss for you.

Sorry you are caught in the middle of this difficult situation.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
vinsanity0 said:
My reply will probably soind harsh, bit it's not meant to be.

Have you tried fixing this within yourself instead of trying to alter your environment? Nothing is impossible. When it comes to jealousy you have to work that out. You can't make people change to fit you. By quitting the kink aspect you are just running away from the problem.

I do understand. When I met Sprite she had a Master. She wore a permanent collar, the whole bit. That took some getting used to, but I respected it. What I ended up doing was treating it like a girlfriend who liked to do scenes, as opposed to the usual TPE. I don't know how deep that part of your relationship is. Technically, you could "allow" him to play with others, but only have one Mistress, which would be you. I see nothing wrong with that form of hierarchy in poly bdsm.

ETA:

I also find it helpful to concentrate on my relationship with a partner and not their other relationships.
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Thanks. It doesn’t sound harsh at all. I have been trying to fix it internally since ~December. I have been doing a lot of reading, talking to my therapist, talking with Ponytail, asking other dominants, etc. Plus an entire book of jealousy exercises....nothing has helped me. Everyone says the same as you — that there are ways of still doing TPE and poly, I have tried to make myself think that way, rehearsing other dominant’s statements like a mantra, and it just doesn’t work in my brain. Super frustrating because obviously it would be a lot easier if I could do both.
 
kdt26417 said:
Hi MsEmotional,

I am wondering if the issue here is that you don't want Ponytail to see other people, period. Like maybe overshadowing him with the idea of you withdrawing as a Dominant wasn't done in hopes that he would be startled out of seeing other people. In other words, him "accepting" the end of your D/s dynamic wasn't the outcome you wanted, the outcome you wanted was that he would stop seeing other people. This wouldn't be a conscious phenomenon on your part, it would be subconscious or unconscious. Without the D/s factor, you may feel uncomfortable about being poly while wanting your partner/s to be mono. But for some people, that's how it is. The problem isn't changing yourself, it is finding (a) partner/s who can live with that. Who can be mono while allowing you to be poly. There is nothing wrong with that as long as it works for the people involved.

The difficult part comes in deciding whether to keep seeing Ponytail. Because it seems to be for certain that he will be seeing other people. You have to figure out if you can stand for him to do that. Whether you'll be his Dominant at the same time is really your own decision. He's already decided that he's okay with losing you as a Domme. Just so he can keep seeing other people, that seems to be his priority. How do you feel about him making that his priority? even above the D/s dynamic you had with him? Do you want to see him go out with other people, and give up your Dominant position at the same time? That sounds like a double loss for you.

Sorry you are caught in the middle of this difficult situation.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
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Kevin, I think you are right. About everything. I think I didn’t really think any of it through — I just wanted to stop the uncertainty. He isn’t even seeing anyone else. I just know he could at any moment and that made me so scared to get even more deeply involved in the power exchange. I thought it would hurt less if I pushed him away a little — made our relationship less intimate and intense by turning off the D/s component so that I could see him like a “normal” boyfriend.

But I saw him this evening and it just felt like we were broken up — like we still cared about each other but that we were essentially just friends who had once been lovers. I felt almost as much pain as losing him entirely.

He didn’t seem to feel the same at all. He seemed just happy to see me. I feel like maybe the D/s thing was more important to me than it was to him. Which is odd, because it was his initiative that drove that dynamic in the first place.
 
Perhaps not helpful, but I've always thought of poly collared folks kind of like outdoor cats. Yes, they technically belong to someone so the big stuff (vet visits, necessary grooming, etc) is up the that person - for the human side that would be whatever requirements Dom and sub agree on. That doesn't stop the cat from wandering the neighborhood and getting pets/snuggles/little treats from others - like the sub could go date and love others. The big, important owner stuff, though? Limited to one person.

That's how I reconcile the dissonance in ownership and open relationships. If that makes sense. Doesn't mean it will work for you, but perhaps worth a shot.
 
AlwaysGrowing said:
Perhaps not helpful, but I've always thought of poly collared folks kind of like outdoor cats. Yes, they technically belong to someone so the big stuff (vet visits, necessary grooming, etc) is up the that person - for the human side that would be whatever requirements Dom and sub agree on. That doesn't stop the cat from wandering the neighborhood and getting pets/snuggles/little treats from others - like the sub could go date and love others. The big, important owner stuff, though? Limited to one person.

That's how I reconcile the dissonance in ownership and open relationships. If that makes sense. Doesn't mean it will work for you, but perhaps worth a shot.
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That is a great analogy!
 
I would think about redefining the DS dynamics.
Obviously him seeing other people is a limit on that, and perhaps even on the intimacy/relationship, as you suggest later.
So maybe you can't "own" him, because sexual exclusivity is a part of ownership for you, but maybe you can still do kink. Maybe you can own him for the few hours you're together, than have a ritual to set him free. Maybe you can think of ownership differently, like owning his commitment to ___ (whatever it is he has committed himself to in your relationship), but not to exlusivity.

Just food for thought.
 
Tinwen said:
I would think about redefining the DS dynamics.
Obviously him seeing other people is a limit on that, and perhaps even on the intimacy/relationship, as you suggest later.
So maybe you can't "own" him, because sexual exclusivity is a part of ownership for you, but maybe you can still do kink. Maybe you can own him for the few hours you're together, than have a ritual to set him free. Maybe you can think of ownership differently, like owning his commitment to ___ (whatever it is he has committed himself to in your relationship), but not to exlusivity.

Just food for thought.
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Thanks. These are some good suggestions for negotiations.
 
icesong said:
You had asked for resources - I haven't read it, as I am not as deeply into D/s as this, but a book that might be of use? https://www.amazon.com/Power-Circuits-Polyamory-Dynamic/dp/0982879415
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Thanks. I bought this book and read it yesterday. Unfortunately, the only mentions that the author makes about this situation are:

“What if the dominant wants monogamy and the submissive is hoping that in time they’ll be able to talk them into polyamory? I wouldn’t stake the next few years of your life on it. Monogamous dominants are generally pretty intractable; their unwillingness to let anyone else touch their toys can be legendary. If you’re hoping for polyamory and looking at a monogamous dominant, my advice to you is to leave them to all the desperate-for-monogamy subs, and go find yourself one of the desperate-for-polyamory dominants.

This is a fairly rare situation, for obvious reasons. Still, it happens. It can also happen that a newer master or mistress starts out fully intending to be polyamorous, but the possessive joy of owning someone completely takes them by surprise and they find themselves wanting to be monogamous, or at least to not let the slave have sex with anyone else.”

So, basically he has hit the nail on the head — I intended to be poly with Ponytail, but the joy of owning him made me possessive — but he offers no advice on how to manage this situation except for Ponytail to leave me.
 
MsEmotional said:
He didn’t seem to feel the same at all. He seemed just happy to see me. I feel like maybe the D/s thing was more important to me than it was to him. Which is odd, because it was his initiative that drove that dynamic in the first place.
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I did get some insight into this as Ponytail and I have been talking over the last few days. Basically he said he didn’t want to force me to do anything that I didn’t want to do and so he was trying to cope with my decision in the best way possible — by respecting my decision and still continuing to love me and have faith that it will all work out. He said he had thought I just wanted a break and when I clarified that I had been thinking of it as a forever change he said that he really wants to find a way to negotiate for a solution that doesn’t involve losing our dynamic forever.

So we are talking.

In the meantime, I feel kind of paralyzed. I still love him but can’t feel sexual towards him without wanting to be dominant.
 
You did the ethical thing...

and IMHO in the end that is always the right choice. You guys seem suited for poly, but perhaps not kink, if I am understanding this correctly. If you cannot do both, with his ability to see other partners in the D/s dynamic, then that dynamic needs to be disbanded. JMHO.
 
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