New in mono-poly and struggling w/ comm ( & trust)

[kenneth]

I am the mono one and GF is new to poly. My meta is new to poly, as well.

Communication is not great. (She rarely initiates and feels interrogated when I do.) I agreed to meta and was supportive, welcomed her, shared advice.

Some time ago, GF shared that she would be fine without meta. (There were previous scenarios when GF told me it's only casual, wants to take it slow, not pursuing, but she proved me otherwise, without giving any heads-up that her approach had changed.) Soon thereafter they broke up (meta's request).

I mentioned many times that communication was very important to me. Right before their break-up, GF asked for us to talk even less about her and meta. I managed to give her space. I saw her pursuing meta, although meta was actively ignoring her on purpose. and I continued giving space.

I left the country for 4 days. 2 days in, she texts me saying that she and meta are back together and that all she can do is text but is open to talk more. I called her and she told me they had sex on the 1st night I was out and that the next morning meta had a fight with her partner. So meta left and joined GF for an activity outside town in response, and they decided to get back together.

Context: GF and meta started dating and kissed while meta's GF was out of town. I knew the 2 were interested in each other and highlighted to GF that I would consider it unethical to act on their feeling before meta's GF knows and agrees; they hit things off anyway and GF downplayed it by saying it's just a mistake, or even that meta's GF is not her business.

When they got back together, but also before, due to lack of communication, I feel like although I agreed with their relationship and trying poly, GF is acting in a cheating dynamic and is keeping things from me. I know this is comparing, but the fact that she is interested in fixing with meta the issues that I'd insisted on us fixing before opening up, but got ignored/denied even trying, was called needy, was gaslighted when i tried to express my needs. I generally feel taken for granted and not interesting, but still want us to be together. It's devastating.

I feel my biggest issues are with this (perceived?) cheating dynamic and her defaulting so easily to not communicating. I explicitly requested to talk less about her and meta or telling me she wants to talk, but at her own pace, not being interrogated by me, me hurting and speaking out about her not willing to speak, or she gets defensive, regardless if I spiral or not. This troubles me greatly.

If I respected her wish, I know our relationship would disintegrate and I would most likely disengage completely. On the other hand, I cannot step on this boundary and be able to live with myself. I am having a hard time living with the fact that I once read her diary and saw demeaning and hateful words addressed to me.

Any advice? AITA?

Do you people think I was being unreasonable when I told her I would have wanted her to tell me she wants to pursue/is interested in going back together? She told me they got back together 1 full day after the sex happened and a half day after they decided to get together again. Our explicit agreement is she lets me know before she starts pursuing partners. We did not cover explicitly if it was someone new, or an ex, as we had the agreement when they began dating and i tried to give space after the breakup.

I told her that all I wanted was a heads-up, and previously explained at length that giving me a heads-up about their interactions and plans helps me greatly in normalizing her new relationship and our new dynamic. Previously, she understood and gave me a heads-up. This time she told me she does not consider she owed me a heads-up for getting together again. She highlighted the fact that she still found meta attractive after they broke up, which was obvious. I do not really get why she had to highlight this.

AITA if I ask how all this makes her feel (to experience this together and bond over this, even if there might be bumps in the road) rather than what time they met, what they did and in which order-- drink and talk, or talk and drink, on dates and life, in general? Is this intrusive?

 

[GalaGirl]

I hope you feel better for the vent.

From what I understand?

You agreed to open the relationship so your GF could poly date so long as there was clear communication and it was on the level.

And your GF has...

• Said she wouldn't start a cheating affair
• Then turned right around and started a cheating affair.
  • She and Meta are keeping Meta's other partner in the dark about their relationship.
  • She has made you complicit in this cuz now you know their affair but the other partner doesn't know
  • GF doesn't take personal responsibility for her part in this.
    • Says it was a mistake
    • Or that meta's GF is not her responsibility
    • She's basically ok with cheating

In addition...

• GF will not give clear communication and hides things from you
• If you try to communicate GF feel like you are interrogating her
• GF said she just wanted to casually date meta, but it's not casual after all.
• They have broken up and then gotten back together
• GF calls you to tell you they had sex the 1st night you were gone from your trip but then can't talk any more, so GF could have just waited to update you on her risk profile once you were back from trip instead
• Meta and their other partner are now fighting
• GF is more interested in solving issues in the (GF + Meta) relationship than in the (you+GF) relationship
• To avoid dealing with you...
  • GF ignores you / She won't address things with you.
  • GF calls you names like "needy" when you simply have basic needs
  • GF gaslights you when you try to express what you need
  • GF takes you for granted
  • GF still wants you around for whatever reason

At this time...

• You feel devastated participating in this relationship.
• You sometimes spiral out
• You don't want to ignore it because you know you will disengage/lose interest/break up if you do
• You don't want to snoop in her diary again because you felt bad about doing that last time
• You worry you are the asshole.

Any advice? AITA?

To me it sounds like your GF broke the deal. You were up for ethical polyamory. You were not up for her in a cheating affair.

Peeking in her diary wasn't great behavior. You seem to know it.

I think you could go ahead and break up and disengage because she treats you poorly.

All the choices here stink. So breaking up is the least stinky option here because even though it comes with some sadness? It leads to you eventually healing and then moving past this and being free of it all.

Sticking around just means enduring MORE ugh stuff and taking more dings. And it's already dinging your mental health and well being quite a lot.

If all the choices stink? You cannot go by feelings. You have to think about your long term health instead.

AITA if i ask how all this makes her feel (to experience this together and bond over this, even if there might be bumps in the road) rather than what time they met, what did they do and in which order - drink and talk or talk and drink on dates and life, in general? Is this intrusive?

TBH? Kinda makes you sound desperate to have ANY kind of actual relating with her. You keep trying to connect. And it goes nowhere.

To me you sound like you are in anticipatory grief. You know this is no good, but not at final acceptance that it is probably best with you ending things and no longer trying any more.

Is that true? You kinda see the writing on the wall but are hoping against hope someone online might be able to tell you how to save this anyway?

This sounds hard. I feel bad for you.

Galagirl

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

Do you people think I was being unreasonable when I told her I would have wanted her to tell me she wants to pursue/is interested in going back together?

No it's not unreasonable, but you communicated this after the fact. It was something you now realise you'd have really wanted.

Just because it isn't unreasonable for you to want or need something, or for you to ask for that thing, it doesn't mean anyone is obliged to give it to you.

She told me they got back together 1 full day after the sex happened and half day after they decided to get together again. Our explicit agreement is she lets me know before she starts pursuing partners (did not cover explicitly if new ir also ex as we had the agreement when they began dating and i tried to give space after the breakup).

Exactly. You didnt have a protocol for this situation. A lot of people find it difficult to have a "you must tell me first" rule. I'd never agree to one.

I told her that all I wanted was a heads up (and previously explained at length that giving me heads up about their interactions and plans helps me greatly in normalizing her new relationship and our new dynamic. Previously, she understood and gave me heads up.

it was a new situation. Maybe she's realised that these rules don't work for her like they don't work for me.

This time she told me she does not consider she owed me a heads up for getting together again. And highlighted the fact that she still found meta attractive after they broke up, which was anyway obvious and I do not really get why she had to highlight this.

You can ask her not to share these things with you.

AITA if i ask how all this makes her feel (to experience this together and bond over this, even if there might be bumps in the road) rather than what time they met, what did they do and in which order - drink and talk or talk and drink on dates and life, in general? Is this intrusive?

It might be intrusive for her. You don't have a right to this information just because you've agreed to this non-monogamous relationship.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

@GalaGirl

Unless you're seeing something I'm not, we have no idea of the agreements between the other person and her GF. Maybe Meta is perfectly fine with her choosing when to rekindle relationships or even start them.

 

[kenneth]

I hope you feel better for the vent.

From what I understand?

You agreed to open the relationship so your GF could poly date so long as there was clear communication and it was on the level.

And your GF has...

• Said she wouldn't start a cheating affair
• Then turned right around and started a cheating affair.
  • She and Meta are keeping Meta's other partner in the dark about their relationship.
  • She has made you complicit in this cuz now you know their affair but the other partner doesn't know
  • GF doesn't take personal responsibility for her part in this.
    • Says it was a mistake
    • Or that meta's GF is not her responsibility
    • She's basically ok with cheating

In addition...

• GF will not give clear communication and hides things from you
• If you try to communicate GF feel like you are interrogating her
• GF said she just wanted to casually date meta, but it's not casual after all.
• They have broken up and then gotten back together
• GF calls you to tell you they had sex the 1st night you were gone from your trip but then can't talk any more, so GF could have just waited to update you on her risk profile once you were back from trip instead
• Meta and their other partner are now fighting
• GF is more interested in solving issues in the (GF + Meta) relationship than in the (you+GF) relationship
• To avoid dealing with you...
  • GF ignores you / She won't address things with you.
  • GF calls you names like "needy" when you simply have basic needs
  • GF gaslights you when you try to express what you need
  • GF takes you for granted
  • GF still wants you around for whatever reason

At this time...

• You feel devastated participating in this relationship.
• You sometimes spiral out
• You don't want to ignore it because you know you will disengage/lose interest/break up if you do
• You don't want to snoop in her diary again because you felt bad about doing that last time
• You worry you are the asshole.

To me it sounds like your GF broke the deal. You were up for ethical polyamory. You were not up for her in a cheating affair.

Peeking in her diary wasn't great behavior. You seem to know it.

I think you could go ahead and break up and disengage because she treats you poorly.

All the choices here stink. So breaking up is the least stinky option here because even though it comes with some sadness? It leads to you eventually healing and then moving past this and being free of it all.

Sticking around just means enduring MORE ugh stuff and taking more dings. And it's already dinging your mental health and well being quite a lot.

If all the choices stink? You cannot go by feelings. You have to think about your long term health instead.



TBH? Kinda makes you sound desperate to have ANY kind of actual relating with her. You keep trying to connect. And it goes nowhere.

To me you sound like you are in anticipatory grief. You know this is no good, but not at final acceptance that it is probably best with you ending things and no longer trying any more.

Is that true? You kinda see the writing on the wall but are hoping against hope someone online might be able to tell you how to save this anyway?

This sounds hard. I feel bad for you.

Galagirl

Clarificarion: GF and meta started dating and kissed before meta's GF was told by meta about her wanting to pursue GF. Meta's GF was told soon after (few days). I was just saying that her not communicating and hiding things (e.g. when she's out for drinks, she tells me with whom and invites me as well, but on multiple occasions she did not to that when meta is involved and then gaslights me. I am not saying I expect her to do that, i am just pointing out the difference in behavior and hiding things. Last time i pointed the difference in behavior she nodded and left to do something.) feels to me as a cheating dynamic and not polyamory.

Clarification2: When they got back together, GF texted me that they are back and cannot write more and is available to talk. When we talked, she said (and still says) she does not see what she did wrong. She says given that i agreed to then dating in the first place, that agreement still applies to them getting back together. After the break up we did not discuss about this at all.
Given that to me it was obvious GF was pursuing meta while broken up before I left country but GF did not say anything, i said i had the expectation for her to tell me she is considering going back together as a heads up. She says she did not owe me that and anyway she "just went with the flow" and did not think about getting back together. She just knew she was still attracted to meta.

Also, after the sex and getting back together, we exchanged random messages during the day (after the night they had sex) and she texted me in the evening letting me know. I mentioned that we have a boundary that i should be informed upfront and i think it took her a while to let me know and she says on one hand that it took so long to let me know because she was weighting it if to ruin or not me being out of the country (which to me means she had at least a sense that what she did was wrong), but on the other hand she still says she does not see what she did wrong and she did not owe me any heads up.
To this date, it is me who initiates talking and she says that i am important to her, she wants to grow old together, respects me, but when I point out what i see not working (mainly communication and her not considering the consequences of her action and downplaying/denying the way all this makes me feel) she says that i am way more emotionally intelligent and she cannot give me the level of communication i need and does not want to stand in my way ultimately. She also insists lately on how much she loves seeing me with other people as this is a nice way for her to rediscover me in different way. I am working on disentanglement on my own and it works (also, no, we did not really do that before her starting the relationship with meta although we talk about this for at least 2 years, when she had interest in a possible commet that did not materialise), but her repeatedly saying this sounds like pushing me away as it is not paired with direct interest in me and our relationship. Am i exaggerating?

And no, i cannot say i feel better, i am more looking for a way to give it another try and be able to measure somehow if i am beating a dead horse or not.
I am seriously considering a break up as well (after 10 years of being together), but i guess i would want to know first i am not overreacting and i did every possible thing i could to fix it. Although, right now i wouldn't be able to talk about reasons to stay beside seeing us growing closer and seeing her happy in polyamory (not sure this is healthy at this point either).

Any advice, suggestions?

 

[kenneth]

@GalaGirl

Unless you're seeing something I'm not, we have no idea of the agreements between the other person and her GF. Maybe Meta is perfectly fine with her choosing when to rekindle relationships or even start them.

Meta's GF had a meltdown ( with very spot on remarks) when she found out that GF and meta are pursuing a relationship, went on dates and kissed before she was told anything (she was out of town at the time) - i know cuz we were sort of friends, we were considering KTP and i was there and did not say anything and hate myself for it. At the time i chose to shut up at meta's GF expense about her spot on remarks and let GF and meta state theur case and not risk ruining GF and meta's chance at a relationship myself.

Meta's GF had another meltdown (reportedly by GF) when she cane back to town to hear meta and GF had sex and are back together. After this fight meta chose to rather leave and spend the day with GF instead. Furthermore, GF told me the next day she randomly saw meta's GF (she works close to our home) and meta's GF told her to leave and did not want to talk.

 

[kenneth]

No it's not unreasonable, but you communicated this after the fact. It was something you now realise you'd have really wanted.

Just because it isn't unreasonable for you to want or need something, or for you to ask for that thing, it doesn't mean anyone is obliged to give it to you.



Exactly. You didnt have a protocol for this situation. A lot of people find it difficult to have a "you must tell me first" rule. I'd never agree to one.

it was a new situation. Maybe she's realised that these rules don't work for her like they don't work for me.



You can ask her not to share these things with you.

It might be intrusive for her. You don't have a right to this information just because you've agreed to this non-monogamous relationship.

We have an agreement on "i should know before you start pursuing", she just thinks it would not apply to getting back together with an ex.

I agree that this specific situation was not discussed, but for this and all the "might" and "maybe" would you agree that we would need to talk about them to decide where we stand? At least post factum? It's the no talk and comfortably assuming that bothers me.

 

[dingedheart]

Hey Kenneth welcome to the forum.

How long had you been dating your gf before discussing opening up ?

Why or how did you decide on doing poly and particularly a poly mono dynamic ?

AND how long has your has your gf been seeking outside partners ?

I’m not sure if NRE is at play at this stage but I think people get too hung up / caught up in agreements. I look at situation and behaviors that are consistent with the bond and relationship and those that are not. And I think in your case you provide stability and or plan B.

I think you might have been too accommodating and either need to back off and or start dating yourself use her as plan B as well.

 

[kenneth]

Hey Kenneth welcome to the forum.

How long had you been dating your gf before discussing opening up ?

Why or how did you decide on doing poly and particularly a poly mono dynamic ?

AND how long has your has your gf been seeking outside partners ?

I’m not sure if NRE is at play at this stage but I think people get too hung up / caught up in agreements. I look at situation and behaviors that are consistent with the bond and relationship and those that are not. And I think in your case you provide stability and or plan B.

I think you might have been too accommodating and either need to back off and or start dating yourself use her as plan B as well.

So I am F as well. We started dating 10 years ago (GF was married back then and had previous history with non ethical romantic relationships. GF knows non ethical behaviour triggers me greatly and had recent lengthy conversation about how important it is to me to do things ethically when opening up).

We first discussed opening up 2 years ago as GF was interested in a commet.

We decided to try ENM so that we can pursue interests in other people/ for new experiences. GF had 2 love interests already. I am open to us being involved in any kind of relationships, with any level of commitment as long as they are ethical and the 2 of us have good communication. I do not exclude having other relationships myself but i did not pursue any so far (therefore i see it fair to present as mono presently). I did not pursue anyone so far as the people i clicked with are obviously not available and mono and do not want to jeopardize that. And i am completely fine with this approach - no regrets on my side. Lately i decided not to pursue anyone as I think my plate us full and i also do not want to overspill my current grief on others and have rebound-anything as i think it wouldn't be fair.

GF is with meta since ~4 months, with a break of 1 week.

And you might be spot on with the plan B. She admitted taking me for granted and how reliable I am and said she is willing to work on that. Since today, I see she starts talking about treating relationships as parallel (although she pushed a lot and agreed to KTP). This might be an attempt to close communication completely with me about meta and her to get a free ticket on being non ethical. However, i am still wondering if it is ethical from my side to expect her to respect my boundary on getting heads up on dates and developments in her relationships. Given the agreed boundary, would you still consider this intrusive? To me it is very important and i am not sure if i should reconsider this.
I am considering dating myself to find my balance and recover and yes, this would imply her being plan B, but i weigh in on cutting things off completely as i think keeping her as plan B would mean still being involved with her non ethical behavior.

 

[GalaGirl]

Thank you for more details.

Even with them? Things sound pretty rough here if you are at this point....

And no, i cannot say i feel better, i am more looking for a way to give it another try and be able to measure somehow if i am beating a dead horse or not.
I am seriously considering a break up as well (after 10 years of being together), but i guess i would want to know first i am not overreacting and i did every possible thing i could to fix it. Although, right now i wouldn't be able to talk about reasons to stay beside seeing us growing closer and seeing her happy in polyamory (not sure this is healthy at this point either).

You don't sound like you feel safe or happy participating here. Seems pretty serious.

(GF was married back then and had previous history with non ethical romantic relationships. GF knows non ethical behaviour triggers me greatly and had recent lengthy conversation about how important it is to me to do things ethically when opening up).

She had a history of non-ethical back then. Did that change when with you? Or even before this poly attempt there was still problems?

If she NEVER changes her behavior... if this is basically all you get and can expect? Would you want to stay here or end it?

Is your GF aware you are thinking about a break up?

I suppose you could suggest couple counseling and tell GF you are at this place in therapy. Ultimately you are the one who has to decide if therapy is worth doing or not.

Break ups do not have to be mutual. All it needs is one person to decide they don't want to be here any more. And all they have to say is "I don't want to be here any more. I'm breaking up."

If you are going to wait and see? I think you put a reasonable time limit on it. It can't be 2 years, 5 years. 10 years going around with this. That's not great for your mental health and your well being.

Be clear with yourself how much longer you want to hang in there. You set a time limit. Once it passes? If nothing is better by then? Be at peace that you have asked for changes enough, been patient enough, and you prefer to end it and move on rather than stick around for more unethical behavior or wacky.

And no, i cannot say i feel better, i am more looking for a way to give it another try and be able to measure somehow if i am beating a dead horse or not.

That's the thing.

YOU define your limit of tolerance.

YOU decide what you are and are not willing to put up with in a relationship.

YOU decide how much time/energy you want to give this.

YOU when you are done trying to solve a problem that keeps on repeating, is unsolvable, or has no solutions.

YOU decide when you want to quit and walk away.

So if you want to give it one more try? Could call it the last try then. Because you don't want to sit around flogging a dead horse.

Galagirl

 

[Mr Maple]

IMHO I am sorry to say but you appear to be a doormat.

GF is walking all over you and treating you like shit, no question about it.

IMHO, I think that you need to corner them both at the same time and state that its time to talk, if GF refuses, outright state that its over. You are done. I don't know your living situation, but either pack your things or tell her to pack her stuff. either way its time you force the issue and doing it in front of meta can also put GF on the spot to make sure that she tells the truth because if she has lied to you, she may have to Meta too.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

would you agree that we would need to talk about them to decide where we stand? At least post factum? It's the no talk and comfortably assuming that bothers me.

Yes I do agree that you need to talk but I also don't think you're willing to do things any other way than the way where you get to decide who and when your partner dates. I don't think she wants that. And that's okay too

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

which to me means she had at least a sense that what she did was wrong)

No it doesn't. It means that she was scared that you'd not receive what you'd perceive as bad news well. When a battered woman doesn't let her husband know she failed to follow one of his rules, it isn't because "she did wrong" and his rules are appropriate. It's because she's scared of his response as it is harmful and abusive. People lie to stay alive.

I get that meta has a toxic relationship etc, but it's your partner's decision if it's suitable for her. Use her choice as an indication of your overall compatibility.

 

[kenneth]

No it doesn't. It means that she was scared that you'd receive what you'd perceive as bad news well. When a battered woman doesn't let her husband know she failed to follow one of his rules, it isn't because "she did wrong" and his rules are appropriate. It's because she's scared of his response as it is harmful and abusive. People lie to stay alive.

I get that meta has a toxic relationship etc, but it's your partner's decision if it's suitable for her. Use her choice as an indication of your overall compatibility.

Thank you for this! Any advice on how to work on this perception or do you think it's a dead end?
This fear dynamic is what she grew up with and I can see us going into this dynamic as well and tried to addressed it. No success so far and i do not know what else to do beside trying to talk about it so we are both aware of this possibility and work on it. Any advice is much appreciated.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

Any advice on how to work on this perception

Show behaviour that is inconsistent with the belief. If she feels like she will be punished or shamed for her true feelings and desires, then the chances of her concealing them are higher.

Personally I've found that men tend to be overtly aggressive in his sense. They'll make it clear that what you want isn't going to happen if they can help it and you're a bad person for wanting it.

Women tend to be a bit more passive aggressive. They won't overtly say that what you want is bad, but they'll subtly shame you in a kind of condescending way. Almost like "when you grow up to be a better person, you'd never dream of doing something like this to someone you love". It works in the same gaslighty way and makes you reluctant to share things you think might upset them.

This fear dynamic is what she grew up with

So yes, history of trauma in this area means some people will be extra sensitive to anything that even seems like it might head this way. There is nothing much you can do other than consistently display behaviour to the contrary. They have to work on themselves to break the pattern of seeing it when it really isn't there.

 

[GalaGirl]

Any advice on how to work on this perception or do you think it's a dead end?
This fear dynamic is what she grew up with and I can see us going into this dynamic as well and tried to addressed it. No success so far and i do not know what else to do beside trying to talk about it so we are both aware of this possibility and work on it. Any advice is much appreciated.

Her perception is something only she can change.

I mean, you can behave different than whatever people did in her past. You are not them. You can be patient, you can not fly off the handle, etc. You can suggest individual counseling, couple counseling. You can try to meet her halfway in that.

But in the end? She's the one who has to do the work inside her to address her past traumas. You can't do it FOR her.

Galagirl

 

[kdt26417]

Hello kenneth,

I'm sorry that your girlfriend is cheating with your metamour, and withholding communication from you. I don't blame you for still wanting to be with your girlfriend, it seems that the two of you have a lot in common other than these two little things (that are not so little), and you have been together for ten years. I do not think you are the asshole, your girlfriend needs to be more considerate. She should have told you she was thinking of getting back together with your metamour. She thinks the breakup doesn't count because she was still attracted to your metamour. She should let you know how she feels, not just the technical details.

Sympathetically,
Kevin T.

 

[Cringe the Clown]

As a general rule it's good to not think about anyone else's relationships, and focus on yours alone. Yours is not going great, and you are probably wanting to stick up for this meta because you are not used to sticking up for yourself. You deserve to be your own advocate though. She hurts you, so drop her. You do not owe her a reason. The less you say the better.