New-ish to Open/Poly, and My First Relationship

A

atalanta

New member
Opinion/guidance/support appreciated! =) Apologies for length!

My husband "R" and I decided to open up our marriage about four years ago; he has had a consistent partner (kinky) for about three years, "J" but it's only the past four months that I've done it.

I wanted him to be comfortable, and I was sort of discouraged by his first bad experience, (she was a sociopath), and also initially looking in the kink community. I'm more sexually experienced than he is, too, which was a factor. I wanted him to be able to get some 'catchup'. =)

Anyway, I finally went to OKCupid and started chatting with a nice guy, "O". He was just leaving on a trip, but we chatted by text every day he was gone, (despite him being in France with the time difference!). He knew I was married, he was just finishing up a divorce after a 15 year relationship, and he said he didn't want to get serious.

The problem (not really), is we really clicked; I didn't expect my first open adventure to happen like that. I expected feelings would/could develop at some point, but I didn't anticipate it happening so quickly or deeply.

We connect very well in a lot of ways. He is one of the best lovers I have had, and from an affection standpoint, he is about perfect. We also share a number of interests (dancing, electronic music, cooking, etc), and often when I would go over there, we would dance close, staring into each other's eyes. Really powerful.

R is fine with this; we had chatted about the possibility of deep connexions before this happened. Unfortunately, O has 'decided' he is monogamous and wants to end the romantic part. (He says he has turned off those feelings for me.) Unfortunately he also doesn't disagree he never REALLY tried to do non-monogamy with me. He said he sort of expected to be a sex toy I would discard and did not anticipate we would develop feelings, and wants to end things before they got too far. Except they did.

There's a lot of contradictions - he doesn't think FWB is a good idea, because that might make it harder, although we've slipped once. I was really upset because he decided this unilaterally, without chatting with me, although he did chat a little with some friends. (One was supportive of us if it worked or felt good to him, but others seem to have a typical anti-poly reaction).

He admits there are things tied up in this - losing his marriage (she wanted the divorce), has made him feel he wants more control in relationships, he knows he can't marry me, which is what he ultimately wants. I am trying very hard to be friends with him still, although the various contradictions, (he was away with his kids and would text me messages calling me sweetie, then somewhat ignore me when he came back), and his adamant desire that I still be part of his life are frustrating.

I sympathise with his ultimate goal to marry (I was traditionally non-monogamous for a long time), but I am at the point in life where I realise deep, real connexions with people are rare, and they should not be lightly tossed aside. He married the first woman he had sex with (he was a shy, but cute guy in his 20's - he's almost 40 now), so a lot of his ideas come from a very limited, very romanticized view of marriage. He admits the type of deep, 'affectionate friendship' he wants with me is something he hasn't wanted with any ex since his separation, he wants to have me in his life forever, and even admits the love he was beginning to feel wasn't something he had felt with any of them either. But... if I ever wanted to marry you I couldn't. But yes, he still is sexually attracted to me, but he's turned off romance, but sex is also part of romance, but the desire is still there...

I am sort of a drill down kind of gal, I like to understand, and the contradictions are sort of making me crazy - ironically (or not, I sort of think this is the way it should be), R - the husband - has been my biggest supporter, trying to give me advice. But he is also close to the problem because he loves me so much, is upset that I am hurt, and doesn't have a lot of poly relationship experience.

I am not sure what to do. Being friends with someone you desire sexually and who admits to wanting you but thinks you shouldn't have each other... doesn't sound like a picnic and in my limited experience, it fucking sucks. (Sorry.) But there is also this great, easy way we have together and yes, a part of me hopes he will see the value is in the relationship, not the word. I feel so strongly he is throwing away something magical between us and I resent it with every fibre of me. I got cross with him when he tried a little revisionism claiming the friendship was what was there the most, and I said, "You don't spend half an hour dancing and looking into someone's eyes", and then kissing them and making love to them while keeping eye contact. Some time things were so intense I was shocked.

He's also on anti-d's that diminish his libido but last time we were together, the 'slip' after our breakup, he had NO problems with that. I really REALLY miss the intimate connexion with him, but he also thinks we can just have that as friends, not getting it when I said a lot of that came from our ability to be vulnerable sexually in front of one another. He was also surprised by my reaction that he 'didn't just want me for sex' (and cared so much he wants us to be close friends). He said he's never had a close female friend like me, and was sure I would be one he would have for the rest of his life. Again, a bit of that (I feel), came from the way we started things, the acceptance we found in each other outside AND inside the bedroom, the ease with which both of those happened, how natural it feels.

I know you can't lead a horse to water, but I'm not sure how/if I can keep him as friends (arm's length) or just cut him off for a while, or try to get him to clarify some of his confusion (which I fear might only make both of us frustrated), or if there are other options. R says at this point for now he's dug in his heels on this, even though there are no new partners on his horizon apparently.

I am a fan of Alan Watts, who lamented how we malign the present with a preoccupation of the past and future. Life is a gift, this moment is unique, and there are no guarantees for the future. If two people find comfort, love and acceptance with each other, what does it fucking matter what it is called, where it might go? Tomorrow is only a possibility, today is truth.

Thoughts would be appreciated!
 
I am pretty new to polyamory myself, so take my input for what it is worth. I was wondering if you have had a discussion with him on what the word friends means to each of you? In the aftermath of our first failure at parallel polyamory, my wife and I figured out we we're talking past each other because a number of words we we're using, including friends, meant different things to each of us. For me, the goal of friendship is a deep meaningful and hopefully lifelong relationship. For her, it was someone she connected with who would be in her life for a season. There were other words for us too, but possibly the definitions of words is part of your divide?
 
Hello atalanta,

To be honest, I don't think O is going to change his mind, he wants a platonic friendship, and that is that. If you can truly enjoy a platonic friendship with him, without getting frustrated out of wanting more, then go ahead and do that, but otherwise, I would consider putting some distance between you and him. No contact, to be exact. Otherwise you are just torturing yourself ...

There's always a chance I could be wrong. Although even if I am, I at least don't think O is going to change his mind for a very long time.

I hope you'll find someone that's really willing to be a romantic partner, in addition of course to your very fine husband.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
Hello atalanta, welcome to the board.

Just a quick etiquette note, we strongly suggest you choose a nickname instead of a letter. Makes your relationships more clear and reader friendly.

So I'll just use Oscar, but of course you can pick another name.

Sounds to me like you and Oscar are drunk on NRE. It's great you connect in hobbies and tastes! But I bet Oscar is still at sea about his divorce. You may be a rebound girl. His feelings are raw and he's soaking up the attention from you.

But I see him trying to pull back and fight his NRE. Which is probably what is best for him, since he really feels right now he can't do poly.

Taking the romance out of your relating might feel sad if you cant be romantic before and during sex after already having had it. That eye contact you speak of is SUPER bonding. It makes the hormones really ramp up, for bonding, for needing to be close.

But as bad as it may feel, I think you could, for your own heart's safety, draw back while Oscar gets some of internal issues about dating sorted out.
 
You’re the only one that knows if you can do it. SO has been in my life sometimes as a lover and sometimes as the very best more than friend but not lover since we were teens. For us it wasn’t hard but we both naturally allowed our relationship to flow as needed that moment. I agree with your Alan Watts quote. But not everyone can do it. SO and I know that matter what we’ll always be more than friends.

Good luck
 
For me, I need a good while of no contact to even think of friendship when a romance ends, otherwise I get tangled up in desire and hurt. Some people don't have that issue but in this case it sounds to me as though you do.

Unless you really want to moon around applying subtle pressure to get him to change his mind I would say you should probably give yourself and O some space to let the NRE die down. It is not so good emotionally to spend time being told "Maybe I thought it was amazing at the time but I don't want that any more". At least it wasn't for me.

I hope things improve soon.

Leetah
 
Magdlyn said:
Hello atalanta, welcome to the board.

Just a quick etiquette note, we strongly suggest you choose a nickname instead of a letter. Makes your relationships more clear and reader friendly.

So I'll just use Oscar, but of course you can pick another name.

Sounds to me like you and Oscar are drunk on NRE. It's great you connect in hobbies and tastes! But I bet Oscar is still at sea about his divorce. You may be a rebound girl. His feelings are raw and he's soaking up the attention from you.

But I see him trying to pull back and fight his NRE. Which is probably what is best for him, since he really feels right now he can't do poly.

Taking the romance out of your relating might feel sad if you cant be romantic before and during sex after already having had it. That eye contact you speak of is SUPER bonding. It makes the hormones really ramp up, for bonding, for needing to be close.

But as bad as it may feel, I think you could, for your own heart's safety, draw back while Oscar gets some of internal issues about dating sorted out.
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Thanks for your thoughts, (as well as others!). You mentioned something that came up when "Oscar" and I went to play pool yesterday, so I am responding to your post.

I knew he was going to have his kids for a few days and then go away, and I didn't want the rawness and pain to be the last thing we had before that, so I suggested a neutral situation and promised myself I was going to be my normal self, the one that met him, and try to just have a nice time, no mention of anything.

And we had a great time, a little flirty, very fun, and he walked me to my car and I drove him to his, and we ended up chatting - he brought it up.

He did say directly this time, Magdlyn, that he was trying to protect himself. After being so pained by the divorce, (he said he's not sure the 15+ years of being, 'the happiest man alive' makes up for the last year of hell), that he doesn't know if he can ever trust enough to marry again, and he is so afraid of being hurt that he will 'do almost anything' (paraphrase but close), to protect himself.

He is also on antidepressants that make him feel 'numb' and semi-emotionless, and sex, which used to be so important, is not any longer, he has no real drive. Some of his other behaviour now makes more sense. When he was away for his weekend and he texted me sweetly, he told me when he came back he had missed his pills one day, and apologised for 'any sad tweets' (amongst the sweet ones were lonely ones). I did see other glimpses of more emotion peeking through during various times over the months when he forgot his pill or was making them last because he needed to renew his prescription.

I once, in an outburst I apologised for, said "I couldn't turn feelings on and off, like a robot". He mentioned that last night, said that the pills have made him that way, they are supposed to suppress emotion, but that he wasn't normally like that.

We had a good talk - we both teared up, and I explained more personally why his no sex/sexual intimacy is so difficult. He also kissed me several times, tenderly and romantically and nearly cried but wouldn't tell me why, he just said he would be alright, it was okay.

He said he is not ready for a relationship, that he needs to work on himself. He also was very complimentary, (as he has been before), about my positiveness, how he made good changes in his life, at least partly due to me. How even friendships can be very, very intense.

He also said at first the relationship was fine, but then he started to worry and it bothered him, so that's why he did what he did. (I do not know how much, if at all, any of his friends might have influenced this.) We ended the night with him saying even though he'd be gone, we should text and keep in touch.

I think it's good he find himself - during one of our heart to hearts I told him that before he jumps into marriage again, (he misses the routines), he needs to be healthy and whole himself, and good spending time alone. He repeated something similar last night and said I was right about a lot of things. He also brought up some points/questions which I didn't have a good answer for.

He said a problem is at 6-8 months he wants to introduce a SO to his kids, but they would never understand the situation and I said it's not really anything they or anyone else HAS to know.

So that begs the question, and I didn't drill down on this at the time, what do you tell? In thinking about it since last night, I believe you should tell the kids that "This is my friend; we sometimes spend time together." (His youngest child is 8). I also think that since even at the 8 month mark there is no guarantee that even a traditionally single person will go the distance, it is left there. We don't have circles that seem to intersect, so I don't believe his kids would have to worry about any chatter... or is that naive? What are thoughts about this? How to handle it all when kids are involved?

The other thing he mentioned (and has before), is he would have liked to send flowers, but 'you're husband probably wouldn't like that'. I said no, he wouldn't mind, and in fact I had mentioned 'Oscar's' comment to him before, and 'Rob' (husband), said "You like flowers, he can send them I don't mind." Then Oscar paused and said, "But I do."

So I had no response to that. He freely admits when we were together he never felt short changed, like I was distracted, or I gave him less than everything. How do you handle questions or concerns about this really new experience and dynamic, because I am sure the flower problem isn't the only one of its kind, and here is where my inexperience in being poly probably shows. It isn't unreasonable to ask how to navigate traditional waters from a poly PoV. There are some things I can't fix, like he wishes he had someone to come home to (a marriage pattern), although one off week I spent nearly every night there (he has his kids alternating weeks on and off).

Regardless of how things eventually evolve for us, there are definitely some points here that will come up, and knowing how to discuss/handle them going forward is probably a good idea.

Thanks in advance for your patience with this noob!
 
I am a fan of Alan Watts, who lamented how we malign the present with a preoccupation of the past and future. Life is a gift, this moment is unique, and there are no guarantees for the future. If two people find comfort, love and acceptance with each other, what does it fucking matter what it is called, where it might go? Tomorrow is only a possibility, today is tru
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The two people here do not. Oscar is finding "discomfort and weird" dating you in a poly model. It's not his cup of tea and he is doing his best to tell you that.

I think he's basically telling you that he wants to break up. He's not into poly and prefers monogamy, he expected a sex thing and did not expect to get all into "feelings" so now he's trying to protect himself from that and back off from something he knows is not for him, etc. Like this experience made him realize that with this divorce thing... he's just not ready to date at all, much less in a poly thing.

None of that sounds like "Joyous, ethusiastic yes! I really would LOVE to practice poly with you!" to me.

I think maybe he jumped the gun a bit on offering himself as a dating partner during a divorce. And unfortunately you were the one he dated and helped him realize that.

I agree with Magdlyn -- back off and let it be broken up.

Don't be friends for now if it is too hard on your side. Go no contact. Let him sort his side out.

If somewhere down the line he wants to give you a call and you are up for that? Could tell him he could do that. But have a clean break with no contact in the meanwhile. And view it like "Nice if it happens one day, but not gonna wait around on him holding my breath either."

Part of successful poly is dating people who want to be there. Oscar doesn't sound like he really wants to be there. YOU want him to be... but HE doesn't. I'm not sure you are hearing him over your disappointment because you don't want to put this down just yet. Like... you want to keep hoping. Is that it?

It's a bummer when things don't work out. You have my sympathies.

Galagirl
 
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This reminds me of something I went through a couple years ago. You're right it does fucking suck. It was a shame because we really did love each other. She just could not accept poly. The experience has made me leery of dating people who identify as mono.

You can answer all the questions the right way, but it doesn't matter if they don't want to accept it.
 
So Oscar was married 15 years, ecstatic for 14, blindsided and miserable for the last year.

First of all, he's rusty at dating. If he didn't want anything more than casual sex, he shouldn't have done all the romance, the dancing, the eye contact, in the first place.

Second, he's thinking of remarrying already? He wants "someone to come home to?" He's really jumping the gun. He needs to get his shit together. Does he think he can casually fuck around for a year or so and then find Ms Right to become the Mrs? Um, what was he doing for 14 years that he could've been so blindsided that his wife was miserable and wanted a divorce? Or maybe there was some kind of life crisis that ended things, that he has to process...

These are the issues he needs to sort out. It is unkind to distract him with your missing dancing, and whether he can give you flowers, and how to tell his kids his partner is poly, etc.

You may think you can "just text" and advise him now, on his divorce aftermath. But it's gonna kill you. You want him to heal, fast, and get back to being in a romantic relationship with you. You're not a disinterested platonic friend. You want him as a romantic love and sex partner.

Last year, a guy I was dating lost his mother. She died of multiple health problems including cancer; she was only in her 50s. My bf had been in a bad love/hate codependent relationship with her all his life. Suddenly at her death, he lost all desire for me, sexual and romantic. But he was fine being friends!! He had started therapy when she was failing, knowing their relationship was unhealthy, knowing the death would be very hard on him. However, neither of us predicted he'd lose interest in sex/romance. But he did. He doesn't want to be touched (I think because his mother crossed his boundaries over and over [not sexually, just emotional abuse]). He doesn't even like his cat on his lap!

I was NOT fine being platonic friends!! I wanted him really bad. I took about 8 months of not speaking to him at all. Then I began infrequent contact. In fact, it's been about 15 months and I still want to jump his bones. He wants my friendship, and the friendship of my nesting partner, my son, our other friends, that he'd gotten used to. But I find it really really hard to just hang out with him as platonic friends. He kinda broke my heart. So, I see him very seldom. I rarely text. I sometimes "like" his FB and Instagram posts. Once in a while I comment on one. I need to see him when other are around, I can't be alone with him. And even then, it's hard. So I only see him once every month or two. And when I do I just want to touch him and look at his hands that used to do such wonderful things to my body. I'd be better off still staying no contact, but he's basically begged me not to cut him out of my life completely.
 
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GalaGirl said:
The two people here do not. Oscar is finding "discomfort and weird" dating you in a poly model. It's not his cup of tea and he is doing his best to tell you that.

I think he's basically telling you that he wants to break up. He's not into poly and prefers monogamy, he expected a sex thing and did not expect to get all into "feelings" so now he's trying to protect himself from that and back off from something he knows is not for him, etc. Like this experience made him realize that with this divorce thing... he's just not ready to date at all, much less in a poly thing.

None of that sounds like "Joyous, ethusiastic yes! I really would LOVE to practice poly with you!" to me.

I think maybe he jumped the gun a bit on offering himself as a dating partner during a divorce. And unfortunately you were the one he dated and helped him realize that.

I agree with Magdlyn -- back off and let it be broken up.

Don't be friends for now if it is too hard on your side. Go no contact. Let him sort his side out.

If somewhere down the line he wants to give you a call and you are up for that? Could tell him he could do that. But have a clean break with no contact in the meanwhile. And view it like "Nice if it happens one day, but not gonna wait around on him holding my breath either."

Part of successful poly is dating people who want to be there. Oscar doesn't sound like he really wants to be there. YOU want him to be... but HE doesn't. I'm not sure you are hearing him over your disappointment because you don't want to put this down just yet. Like... you want to keep hoping. Is that it?

It's a bummer when things don't work out. You have my sympathies.

Galagirl
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Thanks for the post and good question, Galagirl!

Last night was D&D and I am battling the onset of a cold, so apologies for the late response.

There is definitely some hope there, yes. To go through all the conversations would take a while but I feel that he has definitely sent out mixed signals. When he thought I was breaking off contact, he said FWB wasn't off the table. When I first talked about open and poly at the beginning, he said he could see some benefits, but when we broke up, he admitted he hadn't REALLY tried, and he missed the patterns of marriage; on Monday he admitted trying to just blindly go back to them is a bad idea. He mentioned most people he talked with were echoing traditional sentiments, yet on Monday he said he's not sure he could ever do marriage again, and I was right about a lot of things I said. (I said he needed to find out what was really important, not just resort to old habits because they gave the familiarity of comfort, be okay being alone, etc). He also has stressed several times now that he is afraid of being hurt, that is his primary worry; he also has asked those questions about 'what do I tell the kids?', seems concerned he doesn't know how to answer many of those questions.

And of course he has also said he is very, very confused, and the medicine affects his feelings.

Part of it is in a prior relationship, I later discovered that after we broke up my ex-SO was interested, but because of my aloofness didn't know how to approach possible reconciliation. Deep down I suspected he wanted to know if there was a way, or at least keep it open, (he would approach me at parties, things he said), but I really was quite standoffish, thinking that best. It was a while later I found out, too late. I do get some of those vibes a bit from Oscar.

I am also not the only woman he has dated since he separation; they all end around the three month time but he said I am different because there is nothing wrong with us, and when he broke it off, he started going off on a tangent about around this time he would think about moving in. Again, this is very confusing when someone then tells you they wanted to break it off before emotions got really far, but they already had. He told his therapist about me, and said he raved to her how positive an influence I am for him, how I helped him get his shit together at work, etc.

I feel confused too, to be honest, because this was far deeper and quicker than I imagined it and sometimes I am thinking, 'how does this move forward, what do I do here?' and I already spent dozens and dozens of hours over a year chatting with 'Rob' (husband), before we opened up, and dozens more since. It can be a bit overwhelming, and of course, no battle plan survives first contact with the enemy, as they say. ;-)

It may be that he truly isn't open to poly, but I get a 'I don't know how to handle this new paradigm and everyone I know is traditional' vibe too. I DO support him working through his issues, becoming healthier, because that is good for him, absolutely and anyone who is involved with him, friendship or otherwise.

I am not pressuring him - he needs to work on some things and will either decide what we had was intriguing enough for him to REALLY try this non-traditional path or not.

Magdlyn drilled down on some other stuff you also mentioned, so I am going to respond to her and you there too on other bits. =)
 
Magdlyn said:
So Oscar was married 15 years, ecstatic for 14, blindsided and miserable for the last year.

First of all, he's rusty at dating. If he didn't want anything more than casual sex, he shouldn't have done all the romance, the dancing, the eye contact, in the first place.

Second, he's thinking of remarrying already? He wants "someone to come home to?" He's really jumping the gun. He needs to get his shit together. Does he think he can casually fuck around for a year or so and then find Ms Right to become the Mrs? Um, what was he doing for 14 years that he could've been so blindsided that his wife was miserable and wanted a divorce? Or maybe there was some kind of life crisis that ended things, that he has to process...

These are the issues he needs to sort out. It is unkind to distract him with your missing dancing, and whether he can give you flowers, and how to tell his kids his partner is poly, etc.

You may think you can "just text" and advise him now, on his divorce aftermath. But it's gonna kill you. You want him to heal, fast, and get back to being in a romantic relationship with you. You're not a disinterested platonic friend. You want him as a romantic love and sex partner.

Last year, a guy I was dating lost his mother. She died of multiple health problems including cancer; she was only in her 50s. My bf had been in a bad love/hate codependent relationship with her all his life. Suddenly at her death, he lost all desire for me, sexual and romantic. But he was fine being friends!! He had started therapy when she was failing, knowing their relationship was unhealthy, knowing the death would be very hard on him. However, neither of us predicted he'd lose interest in sex/romance. But he did. He doesn't want to be touched (I think because his mother crossed his boundaries over and over [not sexually, just emotional abuse]). He doesn't even like his cat on his lap!

I was NOT fine being platonic friends!! I wanted him really bad. I took about 8 months of not speaking to him at all. Then I began infrequent contact. In fact, it's been about 15 months and I still want to jump his bones. He wants my friendship, and the friendship of my nesting partner, my son, our other friends, that he'd gotten used to. But I find it really really hard to just hang out with him as platonic friends. He kinda broke my heart. So, I see him very seldom. I rarely text. I sometimes "like" his FB and Instagram posts. Once in a while I comment on one. I need to see him when other are around, I can't be alone with him. And even then, it's hard. So I only see him once every month or two. And when I do I just want to touch him and look at his hands that used to do such wonderful things to my body. I'd be better off still staying no contact, but he's basically begged me not to cut him out of my life completely.
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First off, thanks for sharing your story Magdlyn; I'm sorry my post brought up memories of your relationship and how you still miss your partner! =(

I feel some of my pain in what you describe. It is so VERY hard to stay away, yet Monday was also excruciating. It was a real joy to see his face, hear him joke, play pool with him and banter back and forth but it killed me to restrain myself, not touch him the way I used to. And at the end of the night, before he walked me to my car, he pulled me into a hug and started stroking my hair in the middle of the bar by the pool tables, the way he always used to that kills me (he has the most amazing embrace, it's magic, I feel like it's just us in the world). I wanted to cry because I was happy but also because I was so sad because I wanted more and more...

And that's why no contact sounds great, but is so hard; I get the endorphin squirt AND the pain. When we chatted in my car, he opened up a bit and not in the cautious way he has before, although I could still feel him holding a little back. He honestly talked about being afraid, how more than anything after his divorce he doesn't want to be hurt. And then of course when he reached over to hug me and then began to kiss me, I could just feel everything rise up again, the love, the connexion, the desire. I honestly can't believe how badly I want him, TBH.

So if I cut it all off, as 'Rob' (husband) points out, we won't get these talks and the chance to work through our stuff. Oscar has begun to realise he needs to focus on himself before he thinks of marriage, although an ex-gf he still chats with seems to keep reminding him of all the 'missed things of marriage' (she's dating a new guy and hoping it will turn to marriage soon). But as you point out I don't want to be a distraction because I want him healed and whole, to see him without the meds and stress. Rob thinks backing off some is good, but being able to remind him of our connexion is powerful to men.

Plus, Oscar has also asked me, (like your story), to not cut off all contact. He wants to text, he called me yesterday, has said several times he wants me in his life for the REST of his life. He is out of town on a nature tour and then hockey tournament next week, (I drive him to the airport Sunday), so we will have a forced separation next week, and then he has his kids the following, (another break), except he's already said he wants to do lunch then.

I've been thinking about this, and taking in advice here and from Rob and decided after Sunday that I will do my best to NOT initiate contact with him whilst he's gone, try to give us both some room. I still have all this pent up desire and momentum that means my feelings can be all over the place (the Saturday he broke up with me was at the end of a nearly full week of us spending evenings and nights together and they were amazing, so we were even on a real upward trend). Then, as on Monday, he talked about the fear of being hurt.

You are so right I am not some platonic friend and disinterested party. I also feel badly for him, and wish I could continue to support him and provide him with the acceptance and encouragement that he says I offer. He was blindsided by the divorce because he's naive in a lot of ways (like I said, first woman he had sex with was the one he married), with a super-romantic unrealistic (tweeinish) notion of relationships, but that is slowly unraveling. She seems to not be great at communicating, (from my limited experience; he's shared some of their communication with me) and I think he was walking through with his head in the clouds whilst she was unhappy and didn't chat. He missed any signals, she said little. Part of me also worries if I just go dark he's going to feel like a reminder of his marriage, what she did, because after a while he says she just 'shut down', and I know he felt abandoned. So I don't want to compound that, but I need to take care of myself; I haven't been the same since this. =|

Sorry I am so rambling! Next week is a good time to try and dial it back, definitely an opportunity. I'm scared, if I'm honest.
 
I mean all this kindly, ok? It may not be what you want to hear. :eek:

I could be wrong but I think you are rushing to form attachments with Oscar. So doing all these acts of service hoping that he will return in kind and BOOM! Inta-relationship. Rather than letting it develop in a slower (and possibly healthier) way.

Like caught up in NRE stuff, and then the "drama" of the divorce stuff almost makes it sound like you want to be Oscar's knight in shining armor and rescue him from his murky waters.

What for? :confused:

Unfortunately, O has 'decided' he is monogamous and wants to end the romantic part.
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He doesn't want to date. You do. So you may have to accept that at this time? He's not the dating partner you hoped he'd be. And move on.

If you are being honest with yourself and him? You could say "Dude, I wanted to date. You don't. It's a break up. Let's not go through the motions spinning angst while calling it "friends" when we both know it's not plain friends here. I need healing time alone before I can try being your friend."

Put taking care of YOU first, not taking care of him.

And that's why no contact sounds great, but is so hard; I get the endorphin squirt AND the pain. When we chatted in my car...
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To me this is not "no contact." You stopped sharing sex with Oscar but are still trying to hang out. I'm not sure that's even "low contact."

To me "no contact" means NOTHING. Cut it all off. Might be good exes and friends in the future, but you guys basically broke up and are trying to be friends without a break in between to reset/reboot boundaries/achieve some healing and closure first.

So if I cut it all off, as 'Rob' (husband) points out, we won't get these talks and the chance to work through our stuff.
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He can work on his stuff over there. You can work on your stuff over here .Do your things separately.

This can be "his stuff" and "your stuff." They do not have to be talking with each other like "our stuff" in some "shared process."

Since contact right now brings you pain? You could skip it and not keep picking at the scab. Put you first. Heal you first, THEN figure out how to be friends. Say NO if he strokes your hair or hugs intimately like a lover. He can't tell you he wants to not date and have access to your body like that.

I don't want to be a distraction because I want him healed and whole, to see him without the meds and stress.
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And what would you like for yourself?

You do not exist to be his life raft. He could see a therapist to get professional divorce/rebuild support from someone who is trained to have strong personal boundaries.

You personally do not have to escort him through his process. I get that he's having a hard time right now, but it's not appropriate if he's sucking you in/under and distracting YOU from attending to your own healing process.

Plus, Oscar has also asked me, (like your story), to not cut off all contact.
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What Oscar wants supersedes your need to be pain free right now? :confused:

He wants to text, he called me yesterday....
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You could ask him to stop texting and calling. Give it a rest for at least X months so you both can heal separately from the break up. THEN figure out how to be friends.

has said several times he wants me in his life for the REST of his life.
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Respecting your boundaries is a good way to help bring that about. Heal separately first, then see what can be.

It also a way for you to see if this will become a mutually respectful reciprocal relationship or not.

I've been thinking about this, and taking in advice here and from Rob and decided after Sunday that I will do my best to NOT initiate contact with him whilst he's gone, try to give us both some room. I still have all this pent up desire and momentum that means my feelings can be all over the place
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To me feelings ensue after action behavior or thinking behavior. If after hanging around with Oscar your feelings keep getting discombobulated ? You have to stop hanging around with Oscar if you want to feel something new. Like really no contact and endure through the "withdrawal" thing of wanting another Oscar hit.

Attraction makes the body do all this chemistry stuff... adrenaline, dopamine, serotonin. It's the NRE "feeling high" thing. You keep wanting the high. And then comes the crash.

So if you really want to build something here (dating or friendship) I suggest you pay the price of admission and take a time out so he can get it together post divorce to become a healthy, fit dating partner FIRST. And you work on better boundaries. Both people being healthy and fit helps increase the odds of success later. I don't think you have that right now with this combo.

You are so right I am not some platonic friend and disinterested party. I also feel badly for him, and wish I could continue to support him and provide him with the acceptance and encouragement that he says I offer.
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Not your job. He can seek elsewhere. There are other people in the world. Esp counselors. Divorce and healing from it can be rough.

He was blindsided by the divorce because he's naive in a lot of ways ...
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Not your job to advise him on picking out better dating/sex partners and help him learn not to be naive.

Part of me also worries if I just go dark he's going to feel like a reminder of his marriage what she did, because after a while he says she just 'shut down', and I know he felt abandoned.
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Not your job to fix his thinking or spare him from experiencing upset. Not your job to teach him you are not his wife. It's not your job to cushion the world for him. When we experience yuck, we LEARN from the experience. So we avoid doing the behavior that led to the yuck.

If he has abandonment issues to resolve that's a job for him to do with a therapist.

You guys don't sound like you've been together all that long, yet you are doing all this emotional labor. What for?

I need to take care of myself; I haven't been the same since this. =|
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THIS. I find it interesting that you have this last and so brief when you write SO MUCH about Oscar and his problems (which are not yours to attend to.) Almost like you don't want to attend to your own self and your own jobs much. :(

You don't sound like you are taking care of YOU first and then gifting your help to others appropriately. Put your own oxygen mask on first, fill your own gas tank first. Not like selfish... but like self care and guarding against burning out.

If you were going to list "your stuff" and only that like

  • I wish to take better care of myself. I will do this by doing...

What would you put?

Next week is a good time to try and dial it back, definitely an opportunity. I'm scared, if I'm honest.
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What are you scared of?

He is out of town on a nature tour and then hockey tournament next week, (I drive him to the airport Sunday), so we will have a forced separation next week, and then he has his kids the following, (another break), except he's already said he wants to do lunch then.
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This is not a forced separation to me. To me this is just living regular ol' life. There's things to be doing. So... where's the scary in him doing a nature tour and going to see hockey?

I don't get why you keep doing him favors like listening to all his problems or driving to the airport... how long have you known this guy? He doesn't want to date. You are not some disinterested party. Yet you keep investing time and energy flitting around your crush which later leaves you feeling BLAH. Where's the pleasure in scab picking? :confused:

I think you need to sort out what your priorities are and what your personal boundaries are.

I could be wrong but I get the vibe that he wants you around for acts of service/help prop him up. And he sometimes takes liberties with your body. Touching you intimately is a privilege. He's not your lover or BF any more so tell him to cut it out if he's getting handsy and fresh.

If he's going to offer himself as your dating partner or your friend? You deserve for it to be on the up and up.

1) Healthy person -- past divorce and healed and not on meds that "mess with his feelings."

2) Stop with the mixed messages and huggies and whatever.

3)Respect your limits. Not intimate touching, and not hanging out with him right now.

Because if hanging around him stirs up feelings you want to calm down? You have to stop hanging around him for a while til you can see straight and not be all twitterpated.

Because if you tell him you prefer no contact til he's past all this divorce stuff and is actually healthy, but he ignores that and comes around trying to dump all his stuff on you or touching you and stuff? Rather than hiring an actual therapist and behaving appropriately? That's not being respectful. Who wants to be someone's free therapist? I thought you wanted a dating partner or a friend. Not a patient case load.

I'm not trying to be mean. Just saying that to me it sounds like you are WAY too invested in something that's not even at the starting gate properly yet for friendship. And you already know romance is off the table. :(

You could spend the time and energy clarifying your personal standards for what you want in a healthy dating partner and what you want in a healthy friend and if he makes the cut or not for friend. You do your jobs.

Let him do his.

Like "Get it together, Oscar. SHOW me you are friend worthy first. Become healthy, fit, no longer stressed to the max, not all mixed messages, handsy, or messy like this."

My 2 cents.

Galagirl
 
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Or, briefly, as I keep up with this thread, Oscar is somewhere between Waffle and Weasel.

He may not be intentionally stringing you along, but he is certainly taking advantage of opportunities to avoid even TRYING to be a 100% rational responsible adult-type person.

You can accept that this is How It Will Always Go & accept that dealing with this moment-by-moment vagueness will certainly damage you for every subsequent relationship in your life... or you can walk away NOW while you are still fully sane, & apply the same energy for someone who starts out believing you're worth working for... or you can set down a clear ultimatum NOW & only stick around so long as Oscar works the program (& you leave immediately when he fucks it up the first time to "test your boundaries").
 
Going no contact means, you CHOOSE to not be with him in any way. Not "forced" into it by his need to do some other things.

He is rebuilding his entire persona (and hopefully growing some communication and other interpersonal skills). That is him taking care of his own business. Good. Healthy.

Go no contact. Be strong and refuse his crumbs. They just upset you. Your hormones are driving you to him. You can say no to your hormones. This isn't love, it's still infatuation. In poly, we learn the difference.

No texts, no calls, no in person meetings (no driving to airport). No Facebook (unfriend). No Instagram or Twitter or whatever other social media. No talking and NO stalking.

Often 40 days is the minimum time you need to calm down and see things with your upper rational brain and not your animal instinct hormone driven brain.

In your case, I think you should wait longer. Tell him 3 months. Tell him you need to take care of yourself, and he needs to heal and grow. And you're too emotional to be his "friend," or his counselor, right now.

You'll feel differently after 3 months, I promise. But then again, if you're like what I am dealing with, you might still desire him, and be unable to do one on one dates, even "friend" dates. Although, i was with my ex for 7 months, so I had more invested, we got to know each other much better. My ex needs to grow too. He tells me he doesn't have many friends (only 3), and misses the fun he used to have with me and my nesting partner and our friends.

I did go out with him last month, to a brew pub to play trivia as we used to do, but we had my gf along as well as 2 of our platonic friends. That was... OK. Not great. Bearable. But then, I ended up pressed up against him in my friend's car's back seat after we left the bar to smoke some weed. Ugh. Felt so good and felt so bad. (He was in between my gf and me. I should have made sure she was in the middle!) I have avoided him since. Except for the FB and Instagram... I can handle that OK. He is probably hurt that I have not asked to hang out again. Too bad. His problem, not mine.
 
Thanks for all the responses! There are definitely some good points you all have made I need to think about.

I hear what everyone is saying about, 'if it causes you pain, pull out, he doesn't get priority'. This is difficult for me; at various times in my life, people close to me have pulled away (including my mom), when I was going through a difficult time, because they didn't want to invest the energy. (A boyfriend broke up with me at one point because even though my mom didn't live in the same state, the fact that we didn't have a good relationship bothered him, and he worried it would be too much of a drag dating someone without a good support system like he had.) So I have a really strong tendency to NOT abandon friends/lovers who are going through a bad time because that was done to me (I've been supporting myself since I was 18, my dad died suddenly when I was 12). My husband was still going through his divorce when we were dating, so part of me also feels, 'I have handled something like this', and I saw how difficult it was on him. I have always been very empathetic, but that's not always great for me. =|

I also do love Oscar, although it's not the crazy love at this point; sounds like infatuation, but Oscar and I have clicked really fast, almost as well as my husband Rob and I did, and Oscar admitted when he broke it off that he was feeling romantic love for me. Again, it feeds into what I said in the previous paragraph, a desire to be there for people I care about.

But it's true he does get something from being with me; he's admitted that and I get a little something from him too, but also the pain and not the romantic part, which I really want. You're all right, that imbalance is there. I am just not sure how to deal with the guilt, etc that I felt with when I tried to break it off. It feels so unnatural and cruel in a way, because spending time together feels absolutely natural and right - both the romantic bit and just the sharing company bit.

He does have a counselor, but about a month ago backed off to once a month from twice a month (he didn't go the weeks he has the kids). I have encouraged him to see her more, and what I have said seems to have made him realise that he still has a lot to work on, and he told me she's out of town but is going to schedule more appointments. I think his meds were giving him a false sense of, 'I feel good so I must be well adjusted now', so he felt he could just dial it back.


Galagirl, you said: "Both people being healthy and fit helps increase the odds of success later. I don't think you have that right now with this combo." Yes, you're right! And however we got here, neither of us are in a completely healthy state. He thought he was more healed, I thought he was ready for a 'real relationship' and when he realised he wasn't whole and decided to split, I wasn't really prepared for that because of the confusion around the whole thing.

You also asked, 'What's scary...?' It's not the hockey thing and nature tour stuff... it's because things seem like so much of a see-saw. In person there's clear romantic desire, need, affection on his part, also sometimes when we're not together, and then inevitably there's this pulling back. So part of me is nervous about what this 'we can't see each other because I will be in a different state' time will mean. Last time there was a situation like this, he texted me calling me sweet, sweetie, and using a French sentiment that means 'I have affection and I am giving you kisses', and texts of 'I miss you'. Part of me is also worried about walking away from something that was so powerful, (like I said in one of my previous posts, an ex wanted to get back together and didn't know how because I was keeping my distance). But I know if it was really that powerful and he becomes healthy and is honest, perhaps he will see things in a new light and respect what we had more. Another part of it is frustrated that maybe I didn't do a good enough job representing what poly could be and mean, and that in some respects I fucked that up and I am concerned I left a poor/incorrect impression; and then thoughts of peers can be powerful. So there's a lot in that 'I'm scared' sentence that I used! =)

Ravenscroft, you said: "...or you can set down a clear ultimatum NOW & only stick around so long as Oscar works the program (& you leave immediately when he fucks it up the first time to "test your boundaries")." What do you mean, like Galagirl's/Magdlyn's suggestion of a no-contact time period? Something else?

Magdlyn: "Going no contact means, you CHOOSE to not be with him in any way. Not "forced" into it by his need to do some other things." I sort of feel like I have been forced though, by his confusion, etc. Unless I am missing your point, (I probably am!)

Thanks again, everyone! I REALLY appreciate it! I need to work on wrapping my head around, 'not being there for him doesn't make me a terrible person who isn't loyal'. =|
 
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I need to work on wrapping my head around, 'not being there for him doesn't make me a terrible person who isn't loyal'. =|
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Are you basing your self esteem on your "being there for people" because you have unresolved abandonment issues from the past?

You believe people in your past ditched you because you stink or something?

So now you bend over backwards overdoing things to prove to yourself to new people how valuable a person you are? And that you don't stink?

It's almost like you hang around for Oscar scraps hoping he will validate you so you can hold yourself in high esteem.

But this kinda of behavior is not dignified or self respecting. :(

  • You go chasing around a dude you has TOLD you that he does not want to be your BF.

  • When he gets kinda fresh and touches you in non-friend ways you do not call him into account and tell him to stop touching you like that.

And then you sign up to do more work -- like driving him to the airport or listening to his problems.

I am concerned you are becoming Oscar's emotional dumpster. Where he unloads all his crap so he can feel better. And you end up feeling all yucky.


And like you hope if you do this service enough he will finally come to appreciate or respect you and value you. When really he just uses you. Tosses a few crumbs to keep you on the string once in a while.

This doesn't sound like very "friendly" dynamic to me. It sounds like sunk cost fallacy.

Galagirl
 
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