New relationship destroying my life and unable to make sense of it

[LostMask28]

So, I decided I wanted to post on hear in hopes to get some outsider opinions on my current situation. The whole story is nuts and long so bare with it.

I've been in what seemed like a very healthy relationship for 4.5 years. We've had our share of disagreements and a few rare break up scares, but our relationship has always felt very stable to me.

Two months ago, my fiance (now wife, which I'll get into), spontaneously fell madly in love with a coworker. Despite neither of us having had a serious poly relationship ( I tried dating somebody for a week), we've always self-identified as poly and it was always assumed we'd be open to new relationships. So, when my fiance told me she had a crush and they just confessed with each other, I was fine with it.

Two days later, I have barely seen my own fiance because she's so caught up in NRE and just gets obsessive about people. I finally do get to see her with her new gf, and they're acting like they've been dating 3 months and can't seem to handle being more than two seconds apart.

Naturally, this kind of freaks me out. I recognize it's NRE, but it's making me insecure. I ask if they can try to slow down. They do their best by avoiding anything sexual or saying anything serious like "I love you".

After week or two, I'm still feeling very insecure and neglected and my head is spinning from how fast and out of control the relationship seems. My fiance and her new gf are spending every moment together and when they're not they are always on the phone, or I get to hear my fiance talk nonstop about the new gf.

I start trying to spend time with my fiance and the new gf together. I am instantly hit with feelings of insecurity as I watch my fiance spend the whole evening wrapped around the new gf, being very lovey dovey. I find myself in tears that evening, because my comfort zone has been so heavily pushed and I'm already stressed from other problems in my life (fiance having increased issues with her mental illness, upcoming wedding, and various random drama).

We then spend hours talking about the new relationship trying to figure out how to make things work and trying to make sense of my insecurities. Out of insecurity, I try to start making very large boundaries about what I'm okay with and severely limit what they can do together. This, understandably, makes my fiance very insecure as she feels like I'm trying to control her, and she proceeds to establish that it's better if she has no rules and I'm just kept in the dark about what happens. Stupidly, I agree to this.

Less than a handful of days later, my fiance, who is a terrible keeper of secrets let's it spill that she's already slept with her gf. I try to brush it aside, because I'm already drowning in stress and can't handle more with the wedding around the corner, and we decide we're going to just do our best to make me secure and then tackle the big problems after the wedding. We've always been amazing at problem-solving so I didn't think this as an issue.

Time passes, and my fiance continually breaks more and more boundaries. She doesn't seem to feel really guilty, because in her mind we agreed to poly and I shouldn't have control over how she manages her relationships. Finally, she does feel guilty when she starts to get more physical and develop feelings for the new gf's husband, and she starts to feel like she just cheated on me.

Throughout all of this, I continually feel insecure, and I keep trying to convince my fiance to break up with the new gf or at least take a break until we have our shit together and can actually make this work in a healthy fashion. My fiance responds with a very strange argument about how the new gf is fulfilling some deep unexplainable emotional need I've never fulfilled, and how she longer feels a deep pain inside her. I also observe that my fiance's depression and anxiety seem significantly better since new gf, and thus, partly believe this.

So things continue, getting worse and worse. My friend visits me and sees the situation and calls me out saying I need to stand up for myself and figure out if I can marry my fiance if I'm continually insecure like this and can't seem to do poly. This motivates me to confront my fiance, and eventually throw down an ultimatum of that either the new gf has to go or I can't marry. This causes my fiance to have a massive hysteric breakdown, she begs me not to leave and she'll do whatever I want and that she's sorry but if she breaks up with new gf she needs to go to the ER because she'll be suicidal. This feels very fucked up to me, and she's basically surrendering everything to me to avoid losing me. I eventually back up and say she can keep dating the new gf for now, but we're seeing a marriage counselor and she needs to be prepared to break up if that's what's required to save our soon to be marriage. She agrees. I'm also called out on the fact that I threw out an ultimatum to basically bully her into doing what I want and that I always try to control her (there is some truth to this, I don't know how much, and I'm actively doing everything I can to become better)

After the dust settles, we realize my fiance and I have fallen into a pattern. My fiance spend time with gf, I get insecure and try to demand or control the situation. This scares my fiance who then avoids me, spends more time with gf, and creates a cycle. Being aware of this we start to fix it and things get a little better, but the new gf and her husband are still a thing.

The wedding finally happens. It's actually fantastic, we're all very happy, and I get a honeymoon with my new wife which feels awesome. I feel secure for once and actually get quality time without fear of it being taken by somebody else. I do also notice my wife is more anxious and depressed though without the new gf.

Coming back, I let my wife immediately see her new gf, because I recognize how sad she was without her and I actually felt damn secure for once. I then recognize that night how heart wrenching it is, even when I felt very secure to sleep in a bed alone.

Finally, we see a marriage counselor and their first goal is to just do some meditation exercises that make me feel emotionally stable and safe regardless of outside issues. Surprisingly it works! I feel a lot better, and my wife is basically clinging to me afterward because she feels so safe seeing me sane and she's kind of obsessed with clinging to stable people.

Despite misunderstandings with my wife's lovers and constant stress arguing with them, I think things with my wife are actually good for once. Sadly, I'm mistaken. The Monday after therapy, my wife tells me she wants a break, because my stability made her instantly become codependent, she felt a need to try and satisfy my every want/need and keep me happy so I'd never leave, and that scared her.

So now, I'm with my parents, trying to figure out what to do with this and trying to parse who needs to do what to make things better.

Thanks for sitting through that. So I have several questions I'm trying to solve with all this.

The first is who is at fault for what? I'm not looking to blame, I just need to figure out what is my fault and I need to work through and what is her fault and her responsibility.

Second, what should I being doing about my wife's gf. To me, it's a huge cause of everything going wrong while also just being a spot light for issues we apparently didn't know we had. Many of my friends think the gf might be emotionally manipulating my wife because the gf has an abusive past and my wife is insanely impressionable.

Third, what needs to happen to make this relationship work? We plan to keep seeing the marriage counselor in hopes it will help.

Fourth, when do I walk away? This woman is the love of my life, I have for better or for worse built my whole life around her (I am trying to create my own life for me now), and I really don't want to throw away a new marriage and 4.5 years of amazing love over 2 months of chaos. I love her and I don't want to throw this away after all the relationship has given me, but I know I need a line in the sand. I keep letting her do what she wants in this new relationship and and it's killing me.

Thanks for taking the time to read this long ass post. Any advice is appreciated.

 

[AlwaysGrowing]

Honestly, I'd walk away now. There's no way I would have the energy to deal with someone that flighty. Asking for a break because you're secure? No, thanks.

I'm a big fan of the "relationship broke, don't add more people" concept. And your relationship was broken before gf entered the picture. You two may not have realized it, but if you're feeling that insecure and she's willing to abandon you that quickly... Something's wrong. Add in mental health issues, and your wife needs to decide if she wants to fix your relationship or focus on another. Right now, she seems determined to focus elsewhere, so in your shoes, I'd walk away.

 

[PinkPig]

I second AlwaysGrowing. It's not unusual for the hinge to get a bit carried away with NRE, especially an unexperienced hinge like your wife. It's also not unusual for you to feel insecure. However, in your case, it seems like your wife just wants to do what she wants to do, without any regard or consideration of her relationship with you. I think she's shown you where her priorities are...and sadly, you're not one of them. I'd walk away now. Divorce or annul the marriage, continue therapy on your own, become the best, most secure person you can be, and you'll naturally attract the same.

If you choose to stay, work with your therapist on boundary setting. A boundary isn't about controlling other people, it's about defining what you will/won't accept and how you will act if your boundary is trespassed. (So, for example, if your boundary is that you won't accept someone yelling at you, if wife starts yelling at you, you ask her to speak in a reasonable manner. If she does not, then you leave the room.)

 

[Tinwen]

Oh wow. This should be bookmarked as an example for anyone thinking about poly to imagine how strong NRE can be. Sorry you have to deal with all this.

Finally, we see a marriage counselor and their first goal is to just do some meditation exercises that make me feel emotionally stable and safe regardless of outside issues. Surprisingly it works! I feel a lot better, and my wife is basically clinging to me afterward because she feels so safe seeing me sane and she's kind of obsessed with clinging to stable people.

Despite misunderstandings with my wife's lovers and constant stress arguing with them, I think things with my wife are actually good for once. Sadly, I'm mistaken. The Monday after therapy, my wife tells me she wants a break, because my stability made her instantly become codependent, she felt a need to try and satisfy my every want/need and keep me happy so I'd never leave, and that scared her.

That's so......ridiculous you can't think it out, only life can create such a situation I am so sorry. What are your wife's mental health issues? Is this impulzivity part of them?
She's been 'codependent' for less then a week. She's scared by a new emotion! If you are as stable as you say, you can point out to her that her claim is extremely premature. You two can work with that, if she wants too and if that is the real reason for the break, which I am not convinced of.

The first is who is at fault for what? I'm not looking to blame, I just need to figure out what is my fault and I need to work through and what is her fault and her responsibility.

Forget fault. Responsibility is indeed a much better word. You are responsible for your own well-being, which may mean managing your feelings, speaking up about your needs in the relationship, and walking away if needed.

Second, what should I being doing about my wife's gf. To me, it's a huge cause of everything going wrong while also just being a spot light for issues we apparently didn't know we had. Many of my friends think the gf might be emotionally manipulating my wife because the gf has an abusive past and my wife is insanely impressionable.

This is not yours. You cannot "do anything" about your wife's new gf. You can only withdraw your consent to poly under her terms and walk away if that's what you need. I don't see in your writing anything about the gf being abusive, I think it's just the highlighted part.

Third, what needs to happen to make this relationship work? We plan to keep seeing the marriage counselor in hopes it will help.

I don't know. Glad the counselor is of some use.

Fourth, when do I walk away? This woman is the love of my life, I have for better or for worse built my whole life around her (I am trying to create my own life for me now), and I really don't want to throw away a new marriage and 4.5 years of amazing love over 2 months of chaos.

She's showing little effort to work on your relationship, you could go now. Or maybe you can set a time limit for yourself? Like, give her 1-2 more months to start being a reasonable hinge?

 

[LostMask28]

That's so......ridiculous you can't think it out, only life can create such a situation I am so sorry. What are your wife's mental health issues? Is this impulzivity part of them?

I appreciate the empathy. This has all been weighing on me hard, and it's just good to hear people recognizing my struggle. My wife has not been diagnosed with anything related to impulsivity, but she has always had a very addictive, impulsive, and obsessive personality. Her mental conditions are generalized anxiety, depression, and social anxiety.

I am definitely seeing that some assertiveness is needed at this point. I need to explain that the relationship can't go on as it is, and if it won't change I have to leave.

I'm still trying to figure out though what my boundaries should be though. Does she need to pause this other relationship immediately? If so, that leaves almost nobody to support her until we sort out our own issues. Do I give her a month to sort out her stuff and then leave them? I do know I am willing to allow her to try the relationship again someday down the road, but it has to be once our relationship is fully in order, and we have all the skills and boundaries established to make poly healthy, and she has to be prepared that I may pull the plug again if history starts to repeat itself.

 

[PinkPig]

I'm still trying to figure out though what my boundaries should be though. Does she need to pause this other relationship immediately? If so, that leaves almost nobody to support her until we sort out our own issues. Do I give her a month to sort out her stuff and then leave them? I do know I am willing to allow her to try the relationship again someday down the road, but it has to be once our relationship is fully in order, and we have all the skills and boundaries established to make poly healthy, and she has to be prepared that I may pull the plug again if history starts to repeat itself.

A boundary isn't really about you telling the other person what to do or trying to control their behavior (because such ultimatums almost always backfire in my experience.) Even if they work in the short term, they can damage the relationship and build resentment. A healthier approach, to me, would be defining what you want. Some examples could be: x amount of time reconnecting with wife per day/week/whatever time period, limited or no calls with gf or others during "your time", more affection, less or no talking about gf in your presence, a relationship check-in each week/month/whatever time period, etc. Then, if wife keeps texting or calling gf during your date time you could leave and go do something else. You're not controlling her...she can continue to text and call gf, you just aren't stuck waiting for her to throw a little attention and affection your way.

 

[LostMask28]

A boundary isn't really about you telling the other person what to do or trying to control their behavior (because such ultimatums almost always backfire in my experience.) Even if they work in the short term, they can damage the relationship and build resentment. A healthier approach, to me, would be defining what you want. Some examples could be: x amount of time reconnecting with wife per day/week/whatever time period, limited or no calls with gf or others during "your time", more affection, less or no talking about gf in your presence, a relationship check-in each week/month/whatever time period, etc. Then, if wife keeps texting or calling gf during your date time you could leave and go do something else. You're not controlling her...she can continue to text and call gf, you just aren't stuck waiting for her to throw a little attention and affection your way.

I appreciate this clarification. I'm horribly prone to ultimatums and it does in fact end badly for me. The problem is I can't cope in this poly situation at all, and the only way my wife seems like she'd be capable of respecting boundaries now is if it were a non-issue. So how do I establish a boundary with that?

I feel like the other couple has to go, or I can't really participate in the relationship. This is partly because I feel constantly insecure dealing with this runaway freight train of a new relationship, but also because the new relationship constantly pours gasoline on already present issues between me and my wife. In addition, my wife seems utterly incapable of juggling multiple relationships. I'm sure she could learn how to juggle in time, but right now she's got a full-time job, which is over 40 hours a week plus she's doing intensive therapy for another 8 hours, and she has no time-management skills or experience in poly. To me the whole situation literally does not work, and needs to change.

So, to summarize, I have no idea how to set a boundary on this that will in fact give me my emotional needs without going idiotic ultimatum. How do I do that? Maybe the answer is obvious, but I'm not seeing it, and I feel like the situation is very all or nothing for me.

 

[Emm]

So, to summarize, I have no idea how to set a boundary on this that will in fact give me my emotional needs without going idiotic ultimatum. How do I do that? Maybe the answer is obvious, but I'm not seeing it, and I feel like the situation is very all or nothing for me.

First up, you need to stop getting "boundary" mixed up with "rule".

A boundary is about what you will do in response to a situation. A rule is about what you want another person to do.

Going back to your OP:

Out of insecurity, I try to start making very large boundaries about what I'm okay with and severely limit what they can do together. This, understandably, makes my fiance very insecure as she feels like I'm trying to control her, and she proceeds to establish that it's better if she has no rules and I'm just kept in the dark about what happens. Stupidly, I agree to this.

No, you made very large rules which were an attempt to control her. The best you can do with a boundary is ask her to respect it and make her aware of what you will do as a natural consequence if it is broken, ie "I will not spend hours watching WWF wrestling. If you want to watch it I'll go for a walk instead", or "I will not be in a relationship with someone who eats peanut butter, if you do I'll need to leave".

Time passes, and my fiance continually breaks more and more boundaries. She doesn't seem to feel really guilty, because in her mind we agreed to poly and I shouldn't have control over how she manages her relationships.

She may have broken rules, but your boundaries are yours, not hers. How did you react?

This motivates me to confront my fiance, and eventually throw down an ultimatum of that either the new gf has to go or I can't marry. This causes my fiance to have a massive hysteric breakdown, she begs me not to leave and she'll do whatever I want and that she's sorry but if she breaks up with new gf she needs to go to the ER because she'll be suicidal.

If she had threatened to kill the bagger at the supermarket you'd probably call the police rather than agree she could keep her gf. Why should a threat to her own life be treated any differently? It's just a more socially acceptable version of the same thing.

I'm also called out on the fact that I threw out an ultimatum to basically bully her into doing what I want and that I always try to control her (there is some truth to this, I don't know how much, and I'm actively doing everything I can to become better)

"If you do x I will leave you" is subtly different from "I won't be in a relationship with someone who does x". The first seeks to control the behaviour of another person with a threat. The second states what your behaviour will be in response to another's behaviour, but leaves the choice to engage in that behaviour up to them. Again, a boundary is about what you will do.

 

[PinkPig]

Ditto what Emm said. It's perfectly acceptable for you to tell your wife that you are no longer up for a poly relationship and that you prefer a monogamous relationship. That is setting your boundary. ..no poly relationships. If she prefers to continue the relationship with the couple (and it appears that she will, from what you've said), then you choose to leave. If she wants to stay with you, then you'd agree to close the relationship. The differnce is that you don't tell her what to do, or issue ultimatums, you just tell her that you no longer want to be in a poly relationship and SHE chooses what she wants. No expectations of what you think she should do....

 

[kdt26417]

Hi LostMask28,

Your wife has certainly over-obsessed about her girlfriend, but I am also concerned about your high levels of insecurity. It sounds like your counselor is helping you get that somewhat under control so that's good.

You may or may not have a choice about whether you break up with your wife, as she seems to be already in the early stages of breaking up with you. This break she's taking, does it have a fixed duration? How long do you have to live with your parents?

You mentioned that your wife isn't ready for a poly relationship. What should she do to get ready? Is there a certain book she needs to read? Would it help if she joined this forum and participated? Can your counselor help?

Sorry things are so messed up for you right now. I hope the feedback here will help.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[GalaGirl]

TLTR

Ugh. That hurt to READ. I can only imagine what roller coaster it is for you. I am sorry for you struggles.

This may be hard to hear. I mean this kindly but firmly, ok?

You had many ample warnings all along that this person behaves wacky. Being here is destroying/killing you. You seem to know it is not healthy. And you keeping buying a ticket for another spin on her wacky merry-go-round.

If you sign up for crazy ride and you don't like it? You could STOP BUYING A TICKET. End it and move on. Get some counseling to help you with your own self care and help you learn how to HEED the red flags you see instead of ignoring them.

LONG VERSION

she proceeds to establish that it's better if she has no rules and I'm just kept in the dark about what happens. Stupidly, I agree to this.

That IS stupid.

Don't ever do that any more. You need to be looking out for your best health. Nobody else will do it better than you.

You could have said

"Ok. You can have no rules in your relationships. I need boundaries in mine. I also don't like being kept in the dark in my relationships. That does not allow me the ability for informed consent.

So... No, thanks. Not a good enough offer for me. We cannot be in relationship together. "​

Then could have walked away.

Less than a handful of days later, my fiance, who is a terrible keeper of secrets let's it spill that she's already slept with her gf.

Ugh. Up and down drama. Did you get your STD screenings?

Time passes, and my fiance continually breaks more and more boundaries. She doesn't seem to feel really guilty, because in her mind we agreed to poly and I shouldn't have control over how she manages her relationships.

She lacks respect for you.

She is right. You cannot control her relationships. You do have control over YOUR relationships. Your willingness to participate in things belongs to YOU.

If you are choosing to participate with a chaos manufacture drama person? Who does not respect your personal boundaries and does not care when she tramples them?

It is YOU choosing to be with a person like this. Do you like it? No. Could stop picking her out. Break up with her.

It's like you see all the red flags but you don't heed them. How is that you taking good care of you?

My friend visits me and sees the situation and calls me out saying I need to stand up for myself and figure out if I can marry my fiance if I'm continually insecure like this and can't seem to do poly.

Friend was correct. If you want to poly, you can do it with less chaotic people!

This motivates me to confront my fiance, and eventually throw down an ultimatum of that either the new gf has to go or I can't marry.

And the GF didn't really go away and you didn't cancel the wedding. Why do you not keep your Word?

When you do not follow through on your Word? All you teach is that you are ignorable. You might fuss some, but basically she can do anything she wants and you take it.

I would have said "You behave chaotic. I cannot marry you and live like that. I am done. " There is no ultimatum like "do this or else." I am just DONE.

This has nothing to do with the GF's behaviors. Your fiancee/wife is doing chaotic behavior, lacks self control, and lacks respect/dignity. This is not healthy poly. This is poor behaviors. Not acceptable.

You seem to want to be free of it, so let it GO. Choose to be DONE. You are not approaching limit of tolerance. You sound well PAST it if this is killing you. So stop killing yourself and GET OUT.

This causes my fiance to have a massive hysteric breakdown, she begs me not to leave and she'll do whatever I want and that she's sorry but if she breaks up with new gf she needs to go to the ER because she'll be suicidal.

New chaos and drama talk. And she's the star of the show. Know what?

If she's suicidal? You call 911. Let the professionals sort it out. That is the appropriate and correct thing to do. Take every suicide threat SERIOUSLY. Then she gets help she needs.

Did you notice what happened? Nothing. You did not call 911. She just played on your soft feelings for her and got her way. I hope you wake up to that fact. She uses threats of suicide for emotional blackmail to get her way

That is not kind or loving behavior toward you. That is emotional hostage taking.

This feels very fucked up to me

WAY too much drama.

You are correct. It IS fucked up. It IS way too much drama. How is keeping yourself in the drama stew you taking good care of yourself and your health?

The first is who is at fault for what? I'm not looking to blame, I just need to figure out what is my fault and I need to work through and what is her fault and her responsibility.

YOU are at fault for marrying a chaos person rather than calling it off when you saw all the red flags. If you can see that it is fucked up and drama crazy? You could NOT go there into marriage. You could have put on the brakes.

Second, what should I being doing about my wife's gf.

Nothing.

To me, it's a huge cause of everything going wrong while also just being a spot light for issues we apparently didn't know we had. Many of my friends think the gf might be emotionally manipulating my wife because the gf has an abusive past and my wife is insanely impressionable.

You knew you had them. See?

she has always had a very addictive, impulsive, and obsessive personality. Her mental conditions are generalized anxiety, depression, and social anxiety.

She has always been this way? And this made you think "wow! This is an awesome healthy person for me to date ... HOW?

Don't put your energies on sorting out the GF.

Or even sorting out the wife. (Who is the one who is emotionally manipulating YOU.)

Take time to sort YOU out.

Why do you pick this wife out when you see all these red flags? When in this whole story you are staying how fucked up it all is, why do you proceed into marriage rather than canceling the wedding?

Clearly you have eyes to see. Why do you choose to jump deeper into the hole rather than stay out of it?

Are you well? Do you have white knight syndrome? You think you can "save her" or something?

Third, what needs to happen to make this relationship work? We plan to keep seeing the marriage counselor in hopes it will help.

I wouldn't make it work.

If I value stability? Feeling secure? I wouldn't not take up with a chaos person that offers me insecure situations, crazy making behaviors, up and down drama and fucked up-ness. That is draining, exhausting, and I don't need it. I also don't want a lifetime of marriage filled up with behavior like that. So I would not want marry them. Or continue with marriage to them.

Fourth, when do I walk away?

NOW. You say this is DESTROYING and KILLING you. That means you are well past your limit of tolerance. You seem to recognize that staying here is NOT healthy for you. So be assertive and get you out.

Mere moments of peace do not make up for destroying and killing you. Price of admission is much too high. Get out.

I am definitely seeing that some assertiveness is needed at this point. I need to explain that the relationship can't go on as it is, and if it won't change I have to leave.

No. You already did that ultimatum and nothing changed. Do not repeat what you know does not work already.

Do not JADE. She doesn't care to respect you boundaries and "explaining" some more to someone who does not care won't help you get better. Leaving this crazy making situation will. Move on.

This woman is the love of my life, I have for better or for worse built my whole life around her (I am trying to create my own life for me now), and I really don't want to throw away a new marriage and 4.5 years of amazing love over 2 months of chaos.

She is *A* love of your life. Your life is not over. You cannot say she is THE love of your life til you are at end of life.

It is possible to love her from a distance, in memory. Because she's not safe to love up close. You could choose to move on with your life without her so YOU can feel healthier and less chaotic and more calm and stable.

I know I need a line in the sand. I keep letting her do what she wants in this new relationship and and it's killing me.

Then you STOP doing that behavior so you can stop being killed by your own doing. Make a line in the sand for YOU to follow, not for her to follow.

If you sign up for crazy ride? And you do not like it? That's the line in the sand. You do not like it. So you stop buying more tickets for more crazy ride. You do something different. You GET OFF the ride.

If you choose to keep yourself in a situation that you already KNOW is too much drama and fucked up? You are the one doing it to you. And you could stop. You could treat yourself better than that. Apply for divorce or annulment. If you need help and support getting out? You could talk to your friends and family for that help. See counselor for just you.

You have dignity, worth, and value. And you could treat yourself so even if she treats you poorly and all drama chaos wacko.

Galagirl

 

[Ravenscroft]

Wow. Much good advice here -- for once I've nothing to add.

Well, except that GalaGirl has totally rocked it. One of the best examples of "tough love" I've seen in recent years.

Seriously, LostMask28: READ THAT POST AGAIN, like about another twenty times. Take it to heart.

 

[LostMask28]

Thanks everybody for the insights and comments. I especially liked the clarification on how to set boundaries as opposed to try to control. The difference is very nuanced for me, and I'm definitely still learning it. I definitely agree that I should have put my foot down a long time ago in this situation, but I struggle because of the time and energy that has been put into this relationship.

I also struggle because for the past 4.5 years, this relationship has actually been amazingly good to me. If it wasn't for this relationship I would never learned how to open up emotionally or be able to ask for help from others. It honestly gave me a lot. It's actually amazing how many good friends I have stepping up to help me through all this.

It might be a bad decision, but I've decided I'm taking a wait and see approach right now. I will absolutely not live or have a romantic relationship with my wife until a lot of things change (presuming they actually can). If my wife makes it clear she has no desire to grow as a person where she can manage her impulses, I will walk away, and if she does decide to grow into a person I can continue to love, I will not be close to her until she's actually achieved that growth. I also know this process may take months.

I'm hoping one way or another, the marriage counseling will help. Either they will help me become a person who can have the relationship I want with my wife or become the person who can have that relationship with somebody else.

It breaks my heart to imagine a future without her, but I know have to be prepared for that. I also just want to make sure I'm not throwing the baby out with the bath water. If there is anyway that this can be salvaged in a safe, healthy way, I want to pursue that, because this relationship is very valuable to me.

 

[GalaGirl]

It might be a bad decision, but I've decided I'm taking a wait and see approach right now.

It is your decision to make. Not what I would do at this point, but I am not you. You are you.

So since you want to take that approach? And list a bit of a plan? I think you have a good start but are missing some things. Kinda like... (and I quote just to visually block it off.)

I've decided these things:

• I will not live with my wife at this time.
• I will not have a romantic relationship with my wife at this time.
• I will not share sex with my wife at this time.
  

Not until a lot of things change (presuming they actually can).

WILLINGNESS

I will ask her what she is willing to do.

1) If she says she is not willing to change her behaviors, especially manage her impulsive behavior?

• Then we cannot be together. I will file for divorce now and walk away.

2) If she says she is willing to try to bring these objectionable behaviors under management? I will ask if she is willing to see a marriage counselor.

No. Not willing to see a marriage counselor.

• That's a deal breaker then.
• I will not keep trying to solve this with her by ourselves. That does NOT work.
• I file for divorce.

Yes. She is willing to see a marriage counselor to help us set up a strategy for dealing with all the issues.

• Then I am willing to do same.
• I am willing to give time/space for her to change her behaviors following that strategy.

PLAN

When we see a marriage counselor...

She has to list her things this strategy must address.

Some of my things this strategy must address are...

• I know this process may take months. My upper limit is _____ months. (Because it is ok to give it time but you are not going to spend 50 years on this right?)
  
  
• These are the objectionable behaviors I would like her to change and address. (List them)
  
• These behavior changes are measurable in terms of ______. (Ex: she shows she's working on her impulse control in good faith because she's made X doc appointments and she has attended Y of them so far. Or she is taking a class. Or whatever it is. But MEASURABLE. )
  
  • When X behavior changes have been achieved? Then I am willing to try dating her again. (romance)
    
  • When Y behavior changes have been achieved? Then I am willing to try to share sex again. (sex)
    • STD screenings will happen like ____.
    • We will use ___ for birth control because having babies right now is NOT the time.
  • When Z behavior changes have been achieved? Then I am willing to try to live together again. (cohabitation)

If we hit the upper limit time frame and it is not even close?

• I file for divorce. We gave it a fair shake but it is not even close.

If we hit the upper limit time frame and it is not there, but really close?

• We will consider extending it by (6 mos? a year?) and then reassess at the end of the extension.

MY SELF CARE

I will be attending individual counseling to strengthen my own skills.

• I need to learn to set and enforce my personal boundaries.
• This individual counseling will help me become a person who can have the relationship I want with my wife or become the person who can have that relationship with somebody else.

I know I'm filling in some gaps I think I am seeing there.

But is that something along the lines of what you are thinking?

If so? Then I think that sounds fair and you can finish fleshing it out with your marriage counselor and your individual counselor.

I definitely agree that I should have put my foot down a long time ago in this situation, but I struggle because of the time and energy that has been put into this relationship.

You seem to acknowledge you can trend that way sometimes. That you sometimes fall into "weak boundaries" stuff or "sunk cost fallacy" stuff. Good for you on owning that.

I think there could be some "checks and balances" in your plan. So you cannot let things slide because she pulls on your heart strings again or uses you soft feelings for her to get her way.

Feel whatever it is you feel... but boundaries are boundaries. Plan actions are plan actions. This is her set to do, this is your set to do. Measurable things are measurable. They either get done or not. And measure up to standards or don't.

Nothing to do with feelings. That keeps BOTH of you accountable.

It breaks my heart to imagine a future without her, but I know have to be prepared for that

Yes. It's tough to think about. Even so? I am glad to see you are being realistic and preparing for whatever outcome.

I hope things get better for you -- whether or not you continue with wife.

Galagirl

 

[Spork]

Yes, I've been thinking, "sunk cost fallacy" several times, too.

Stuff I personally believe, maybe it helps, maybe not:

It really is about the journey, not the destination. Quality over quantity. A relationship is not a failure because it ends. If it needs to end, end it. And then walk forward, with open eyes and heart, in your Journey. This thing our culture has where each significant relationship is supposed to be The One that we grow old and die with, and if you don't accomplish that goal, then you failed or wasted the years in the relationship, that is NONSENSE to me.

Wasted time? Really? Did you learn? Did you grow? Did you gain? Were there stories lived that you can tell and memories recorded that you can keep? Or was it years of misery and a total loss? If you had some joy, then you haven't wasted a damn thing. When you're in a relationship, you should be living every moment a loving your partner and journeying together.

People act as though all the moments of the life are a continuous gamble to reach the Payoff Goal of...what? Dying together? This is your LIFE, man! You could die tomorrow. So could she. Stop worrying about whether your time-stock has taken a tumble and go breathe the air and feel the sun on your face. Wasted time. Psh. NO. Did you invest that time for the end goal of owning this person? Some concrete and unshakable bond of property?

You think about that. What was this payoff you're not going to get that you have WASTED the time working for? If it was a lifetime partner, well, you're thinking wrong in that too, because you cannot own people.

You seem kind of hung up on the notion that you need her to belong to you. You don't. Her life is hers. If she wants to make it obsessive and crazy and full of drama, then well, that is her business. Your life is yours. If you don't want crazy and full of drama, then like others have said...you're with the wrong woman, dude. You are casting her in a role constructed of your needs without considering the reality of Her Truth (who she is.) That is a mistake.

Also, I'd ask you to stop using phrases like "let her" or "make her" or "put my foot down" as well as words, "fault" and "blame." And quit letting your longing for things to be other than what they are, shape your decision making. You're not hearing the message, because it's not what you want to hear. But you don't have the power to force her reality to conform to your wishes.

I'm sensing a cycle of her placating you, then doing whatever she wants, then you feel disrespected and devalued, diminished, so you latch onto this "I need to man up and be a man!" and behave...well...badly. She either withdraws or (more likely) placates you again, rinse and repeat. Hint: Being A Man isn't controlling a woman. It's being badass enough to walk away and stand alone for a while if need be, rather than hang on to her skirts for feeding your emotional needs even at the price of dealing with crazy drama stuff. Needy/clingy/demanding is not Being A Man.

I get a weird sense that BOTH of you play mental health cards in attempts to be manipulative to one another. And I get a sense that you sometimes try to force her, or throw your authority at her, to make her do what you believe she should do. In which case, her refusal of letting your insecurity shut down her happiness is her making a choice FOR HERSELF. I would honestly choose my own happiness over service to an insecure person, too, and I think she let obligation confuse her into not taking ownership of her own life. A mix of obligation pressure from you, and social pressure from other sources, if I had to guess.

Do you have kids?
How long have you been married? Can you still annul? If you can annul the marriage, do it NOW before it's too late. A divorce will be much more expensive later.

Stop thinking of ways to control, convince, coerce, or manipulate her into being what you want/need her to be. You're screaming at an apple to change into an orange because goddamnit you're gonna get the scurvy...when you need to leave the apple alone and go find yourself a freakin' orange. Capisce?

You keep saying, "if things change"...if what changes? If you change her mind? If she suddenly has a change of heart? It sounds more like, "if I succeed in changing her." No bueno, amigo. You postpone the inevitable this way.

And I'd strongly advise you to think through what made you so insecure before you try to relationship with anyone new. Some of your issues are specific to this set of circumstances, some you will probably carry with you into future relationships if you don't resolve them. She didn't MAKE YOU insecure or manipulative. She may have done things to trigger that response from you, but it was living in there ready to go all along, and you need to figure out why.

Oh, and don't let anyone hold you hostage with suicide threats. "I do not negotiate with terrorists" is a perfectly acceptable answer...but really what she was saying to you is, "The gf relationship is something I do not want to end, it means a great deal to me and I need to over-emphasize that fact so you understand." I'm guessing that what she's feeling is, if you really loved her, you'd want her to be happy, and since it seems more important to you to own her than to see her be happy with another, then the love is false. If she can believe this, it's easy to choose gf over you. It's justified.

Another question to ask yourself is: "How much do I need all of my beloved's happiness to come from interaction with me?" If you require that their emotions feed your ego, that may be a block in the insecurity to work on.

Notice...I'm a bit hard on you, and a bit hard on her, because neither is the "right/aggrieved/entitled" party and neither is the "wrong/to blame/at fault" party unilaterally in my opinion. Ya'll both have stuff to deconstruct and deal with.

Best luck to you!! I don't think that this is going to be easy.

 

[LostMask28]

So, I thought I'd update you guys. Thank you all for the advice and input, it really helped having a bunch of unbiased voices helping me make sense of all this. I went to counseling to meet my wife and talk things out this morning only to discover she got lost and never made it to the session.

After talking with the counselor and thinking some on my own, I decided that I would take a 6 month break from all relationships and focus on getting myself into a healthier space where I can be less codependent and in turn less controlling of a person. I decided to also offer the possibility to my wife that if she were willing to take the same steps in her own life to get healthy and independent, I'd be willing to reevaluate our relationship in 6 months and maybe see if we could start talking and try to make it work.

When I called my wife, I was kind of sad to discover she really didn't care. She seems very confident in her choice to stay with the gf, and she seemed perfectly fine having me cut out of her life. So this kind of affirmed to me that walking away is definitely the right choice.

So anyway, now I'm going to start rebuilding my life. Focus on friends, having a career, and overcoming my need to rescue others and be in a controlling, dominant space in relationships.

Since you guys have been so helpful, I was wondering if you could suggest steps moving forward. I recently joined codependents anonymous, and if I can afford it, I intend to keep seeing the marriage counselor as a personal therapist. Do you have any recommendations for groups, books, or other things I can participate for my personal growth? I want to be able to start having better relationships, but that means I need to find things that will help me on that path.

 

[GalaGirl]

I am glad you saw the counselor and things are solid now in the sense that you know leaving wife is the right decision. No more dragging stuff out.

I think your counselor would be best in pointing you to resources to help you improve your skills. But just off the top of my head?

Here's one hub page with many links to recovering from a bad relationship.

http://speakoutloud.net/men especially the "respect links" at the bottom of the left hand column. Maybe look through those for anything helpful to you.

You seem to see the unhealthy behaviors. You simply did not take heed. Why not? Too much FOG blown at you? Maybe the toolbox here helps you.

http://outofthefog.website/toolbox-intro/

Are you conflict avoidant? You could learn about conflict resolution types and how to improve yours. Here is one link. http://online.creighton.edu/msncr/m...ict-resolution/tackle-conflict-in-any-setting

Did you need to see bad behaviors like a list? Here on this article the first link is the PDF listing them all.

That's written with the female as the hurt person but it could work either way. Could highlight the ones that happened to you in this or any other romances in the past. Then could count and put the number on the side. Do that in each "block." Then find the "big number" ones. Those are you blind spots. You could work on that so you don't get snowed again like that in those blind spots. Become more resilient.

You don't have to wall yourself off from people. Just learn to set and keep better boundaries for yourself.

Perhaps look up Marshall Rosenberg and learn about non-violent communication.
Here's just one example of that kind of work:

http://www.schooltransformation.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Kendrick_NVC_Materials.pdf

Galagirl

 

[kdt26417]

Hi LostMask28,

I think you're taking the right steps and doing the right things. Stick with the codependents group, and with your counselor if you can. Check out the links GalaGirl suggested. You have a hard road ahead of you but I think you can make it.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[Spork]

Hi LostMask28,

I think you're taking the right steps and doing the right things. Stick with the codependents group, and with your counselor if you can. Check out the links GalaGirl suggested. You have a hard road ahead of you but I think you can make it.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

Your road could be a whole lot harder. I applaud you for seeking to recognize parts of your unhappy outcomes that your own behavior helped to build.

Letting this woman go is not the end of the world. You might even wind up back with her under healthier conditions one day. Or not. But it is best to not look for outcomes but rather focus on -you, here, now- grow and heal, be your best self for and to yourself. No, you don't have to be alone. But don't try to force things. Walk your road with an open mind and see what other travelers cross your path. Sometimes life is beautiful even if you don't have total control of stuff, or even more so because of letting go of it for a while.

Most people I've known who have made some of the mistakes you have, are dead set against seeking truth about themselves, or if forced to confront it they only beat themselves up about it, so from the way you talk I think there's a lot more hope for positive growth for you than for some.

Just my 2 cents.

I'm gonna read some of those links too. Love how abundant are the resources here that have helped me be more functional on my path...

 

[LostMask28]

This thread is ancient and I don't know how many of you are still here, but I thought it might be nice to tell you how everything panned out.

It was very hard for me at the time, but I put my foot down, and broke up with my s/o. After I was absolutely devastated, but my life rapidly turned around. I had friends come out of the woodwork to support me, and I had no idea I had so many people willing to drop things at a moments notice and help me.

I then spent the next several months focusing on personal growth and regaining my emotional independence. I joined a group called Mankind Project (can't recommend them enough if you need support and personal growth), and they helped a lot. I have strong personal boundaries now, and I've been so emotionally whole, I haven't really felt compelled to date. I'm now working for a digital marketing company and living my life to its fullest. Thank you all for your advice back then, it really helped.