New to poly, gay, need some advice

[Drummerboy74]

Hey everyone,

I'm new to this site, and this subject in general. This post is gonna be pretty lengthy. I am just looking for some general advice. Here goes:

I am a 39-year old gay male, legally married to my 37-year old husband. We have been together for 15 years now, married for 7 of those. We own a great little house on the water in Southeastern MA, and we have a great life. We get along really well most of the time, and love each other very much. We still have sex about once a week (on average -- sometimes more, sometimes less), which I hear is pretty decent for a couple that has been together this long. Ha.

Our families/friends are a huge part of our lives, and we are the luckiest people alive, as they have fully accepted us and love us. As a matter of fact, we've never had one issue with being gay from anyone. We're just a couple of regular guys, really.

He and I know with 100% certainty that neither of us has cheated on the other. Our relationship is not "open," but we do have a third over sometimes. We only play together. Over the last 5 years, we've had quite a few, maybe every 2 to 3 months (though we have done this as far back as 13 years ago). We've never really had a bad experience, or at least never had any crazies. Most of these guy were younger (20-28, generally) and most ended up spending the night, usually having breakfast the following morning. We both feel that the "screw and leave" thing was a bit too informal to us and generally enjoyed the company of this new person. There were a few of these young men that stood out above the rest, and were people we could see being friendly with.

Well, we recently met this very cute 23-year old guy that lives about an hour away from us. Ted has a good new job. He's not out yet. He had only been with one guy before meeting my hubby and me. He had every opportunity to meet people, but had never gone through with it. He wanted to meet us because we actually had a conversation with him, instead of the "You looking??" responses you get from a lot of the guys online (which is how we met). Also, he found us both very attractive, and got a good vibe from us.

We've since had Ted over 3 out of the past 5 weekends, and will again in a couple of weeks. We've gone out to sports bars, had beers, took our small boat out, and went hiking, all together.

Lying in bed with these two handsome guys is unbelievably hot to me. We've had some pretty passionate sex together, to be honest. There is something about the dynamic of the 3 of us that is really exciting to me.

I love hanging out as a trio. I love seeing my hubby interacting with Ted, and the goofing around between the 3 of us. I know there is an age difference here, but it truly doesn't seem like it when we hang out, in any way. He's a mature 23. (Or maybe we are immature. Ha) I know he likes us, and loves hanging out with us. It just kinda clicks well.

All of this (finally) brings me to my question. Is this normal?

I know my hubby has little to no interest in having a "boyfriend." He's called this more of a "friend with benefits" kind of relationship. He has a much easier time with keeping sex and emotions separate than I do. He doesn't want to lead Ted on at all. I know that this young man is really new to this whole thing anyway.

But the thought of the 3 of us together, even once in a while, is very exciting to me. I think I've come to realize after hanging out with our new friend that I wasn't necessarily looking for random hookups when we played with a third, but a potential "boyfriend" of sorts, or some one person that we could have a sort of relationship with, as strange and illogical as that seems to me.

Am I a jerk for feeling this way?
Am I poly? I've always found monogamy to be unnatural and not all that realistic (though I know it works for some).
Should I just kinda let this play out for a while?
Is this completely ridiculous?

I feel almost guilty for feeling this way. I'm not sure how I would even discuss this with my hubby.

Any advice or input on this, without judgement? Thank you for reading.

 

[GalaGirl]

Yes, you are normal. There is nothing new under the sun.

To me, in my vocabulary, you are married, and also have a BF you and your husband hang out with and share sex with.

• Your hubby is happiest calling Ted a "friend with benefits," and doesn't seem to want to make any further commitment. He could be polysexual and monoamorous, i.e., shares sex with more than one, but loves only one (you).
• You seem to want to call Ted your boyfriend, and possibly have more commitment, even if it's just the change in name for how you refer to him.
• You are also dealing with your emotional management around practicing an open relationship model and the fact that you find you can love both these people and share sex with both, i.e., polysexual and polyamorous, sharing sex with more than one, loving more than one. I don't know if love theory helps give you more "love words" to describe what love you have for each.
• What does Ted want to be called and be recognized as? Does he want to date other people at some point, or is he happy with you two? How does he describe himself? For certain, he's polysexual, since he's sharing sex with both of you. What is his "amory" -- monoamory or polyamory?
• Last, are all 3 okay with however it is each of the 3 identify as at this time?

It's time to talk to both of your lovers about what's on your mind, and on their minds, to sort out the stuff above, so that you can relax about Ted's place in your life, and relax knowing that all is out in the open, and everyone understands each other, and where each one is at.

Sit down and talk to yourself about your emotions over discovering that you can love more than one. Ask either or both of the others for support as you do that internal work.

But other than that, it seems like this is working out fine. You are normal.

Galagirl

 

[london]

The only problem I see is if your husband and/or Ted aren't happy with Ted in a boyfriend role with you. I think you need to see how Ted feels, and if he feels the same as you, see how your husband feels about you taking this to the next level. I think it's super-important you don't put any pressure on your husband's relationship with Ted to change.

 

[Magdlyn]

So, I understand it's pretty common for gay men in committed relationships (even when married) to have casual NSA sex with others from time to time. Do you have any gay male friends who also play like this? Have you talked to them about what happens when you fall in love with your fuck buddy?

Here in poly land, where we can be male, female, trans, non-binary, poly, mono partnered with a poly, bi, gay, straight, pansexual, we usually call having casual NSA sex close to "swinging." In that configuration, steps are taken to not become emotionally attached, and love is a bad word.

You and your husband did not take steps to prevent emotional attachment to another. Spending the night, having breakfast, lunch, dinner, snacks, drinks, hanging out, cuddling, and enjoying friendly non-sexual time of chatting and going out on boating and hiking dates easily leads to love.

Love is not a dirty word! Love is beautiful. Now, some couples who "share" a "third" seem to think this love should be equal between all 3, as if both members of the couple are clones of each other. Of course, this is not the case. Ted might be more interested in you emotionally, but just kinda like and lust for your husband.

Think long and hard how this will work out. Will your husband be jealous? Will Ted be jealous? Jealousy is not something to be avoided in poly relationships, but faced and worked through until "compersion" (happiness for your partner when they are in love with another) hopefully develops.

Keep in mind, in triads, there are several relationships. You and Ted, you and husband, husband and Ted, and all 3 of you together. Agreements need to be made. Is 2-way sex allowed? Are you allowed to go out on a date with just Ted? Is your h allowed to go out with Ted, just the 2 of them? All these things need to be discussed and worked out. This takes time, and patience, and courage.

It is important to stop thinking of you and your husband as "we," in this case, since you and he both have different views of what Ted means to you. To your hubs, he's a friend with benefits. To you, he's boyfriend material. And that's OK! You're individuals, with your own tastes and preferences. There's no need to force yourself to think like your husband, or for him to share your views exactly.

 

[Drummerboy74]

Thanks for your replies!

I really have no interest in having Ted as a separate "boyfriend." My interest lies only with us, as a three-person unit of some sort.

I am under no illusions. I know Ted is young, has very limited experience, etc. Still, when the 3 of us have spent time together, it has been very, very enjoyable.

I am also aware that my hubby isn't really interested in having a "boyfriend." He has problems with "labels," I think. Ha. He def wants to limit emotional attachment, because I think he's both not very interested in it, and also feels it's odd and not "right."

So I guess I am just seeking some advice, maybe an outside person to tell me what is going on here.

I'm ok with just letting things go where they go. It's way too early to call Ted anything, anyway.

Thanks again for listening.

 

[GalaGirl]

He def wants to limit emotional attachment, because I think he's both not very interested in it, and also feels it's odd and not "right."

So why is hubby engaging in this behavior and going against his own grain?

You "think" is not you "KNOW." Have you asked him if he's going against his own grain?

So I guess I am just seeking some advice, maybe an outside person to tell me what is going on here.

• Ted -- no data given.
• DH -- possibly going against his own limits, engaging in behavior he's not really into, and does not think is "right."
• You -- Crushing on Ted hard, wanting more clarity and reassurance this is ok with the other players in the group, and you aren't weird for being in a 3-person triad thing.

Could your crush be coloring your POV? If hubby is going against his own grain, it doesn't sound as if everything is as awesome as you first described.

That still points to the same advice I gave before-- you all could talk, and get on the same page about what it is you have here, what you can expect from each other, and what it is you each want/need/have as boundaries. Internet strangers can guess 'til the cows come home, but the answers are within your group. You could go talk to your people and sort it out. I am sorry you feel confused, but it's on you to sort it out, and ask your people for the clarity/reassurance you seem to need.

 

[Drummerboy74]

Okay, let me clarify a bit.

Ted truly likes both of us equally. There is no favoritism at all. I think he likes the fact that we're a committed married couple. He met us because he was attracted to us both. He keeps in touch with us regularly by text. Nothing deep or personal, just "shooting the shit" and what not. I don't know what his expectations are in this, but I do know he loves being with us.

As for my hubby, he is def not having Ted over against his will. He enjoys spending time with Ted. He's said so. I just don't think that he wants an emotional relationship. He said (at one point) "Ted is a friend with benefits that we have over and hang out with."

So maybe I should be cool with this?

Ted wants to go skiing with us in January. He wants to take us up to a lodge in NH for a weekend. I would love this! I think my hubby wants to, as well, but will probably say, "I think he's getting too attached to us," which I like, but he is afraid of.

 

[Magdlyn]

Well with this added info, it seems you're heading for trouble with your husband, if you don't sort things out.

I, personally, think fucking without emotions is way less fun that fucking someone you are deeply fond of, or love. Why keep another divine human being at arm's length? Why feel one's own emotions are "wrong?" Feelings are feelings. I know many men will do almost anything to avoid acknowledging their feelings though! Feelings are for girls and sissies. Fucking is what MEN do!

This is the 21st century. I think men are allowed to feel now.

Labels aren't important.

I don't get the whole "couple dating a single" thing. From either end. But that's just me. My bf would love to have a deeper sexual relationship with my gf, but she's resistant to the idea, and keeps him as just a friend. (We had 3way sex a few times over a year ago, but it hasn't happened again.) I'd be down with more 3way sex, but I'm not seeking it. So, each of us in this V have slightly different views, and we are fine with it.

BTW, the age difference doesn't bother me. My gf is 22 years younger than me. We have a ton in common, and on the other hand, love learning about each others' age-group's culture.

I know queers of any gender can be very anti-polyamory, and I always find that a strange wall to hit. You're already queer/gay. Why be against the other alternative sex/love culture of polyamory? Why all the pearl clutching and judgment?

 

[GalaGirl]

You seem hesitant to have the conversations with hubby and Ted, but you could bring it up, and start with something like this:

I want to talk about what we have and what it could be. I would love to build toward a poly relationship with 3 people, either a triad, or a "V," with me as the shared hinge person. I'd be interested in exploring what other love there could be here -- romantic love, consummate love, etc.

What do you guys want it to be? Are you willing and able to explore that conversation with me?

Or are you happy with what it is -- friends who sometimes share sex, but nothing beyond companion/friend-type love? I would like to know, so I can let go of my want for it to be more than that, if necessary. Are you willing and able to tell me where you stand?

What stops you from up-front communication with your people so you can gain the clarity you seek?

 

[Drummerboy74]

Thanks again, everyone, for giving your 2 cents and opinions. It is greatly appreciated.

The thing that is really stopping me from asking both of them these questions (especially my hubby) is that I think it may be too early for it. Like I said, we have only had Ted overnight 3 times (with a 4th time coming up in a couple of weeks). Maybe after that it'd be something to consider. I also feel that I'd be convincing my hubby to give this a try, when I know that it isn't what he wants. Obviously there's an issue there.

The things I do know, however, are that he is attracted to Ted and he def does like hanging and spending time with him. He does feel affection towards him when we have sex, too.

My hubby and I have always kinda differed on our views of monogamy. I personally think it is unnatural. He agrees to a point, but is much more close-minded when it comes to thinking "outside the box." My best bet at the point is to prob just see how it goes from here on out, naturally and organically.

Thoughts?

 

[opalescent]

So normal

Well, we recently met this cute 23 year old guy that lives about an hour away from us. Ted is not out yet. He has a good new job,e is very cute. He had only been with one guy before meeting my hubby and me. He had every opportunity to meet people, but had never gone through with it. He wanted to meet us because we actually had a conversation with him instead of the "you looking??" responses you get from a lot of the guys online (which is how we met). Also, he found us both very attractive, and got a good vibe from us.

We've since had Ted over 3 out of the past 5 weekends, and again in a couple of weeks. We've gone out to sports bars, had beers, took our small boat out, went hiking -- all together. Lying in bed with these two handsome guys is unbelievably hot to me. We've had some pretty passionate sex together, to be honest. There is something about the dynamic of the 3 of us that is really exciting to me. I love hanging out as a trio, I love seeing my hubby interacting with Ted, and the goofing around between the 3 of us. I know there is an age difference here, but it truly doesn't seem like it when we hang out... I know he likes us, and loves hanging out with us. It just kinda clicks well.

All of this (finally) brings me to my question. Is this normal? I know my hubby has really little to no interest in having a "boyfriend". He's called this friends with benefits. He has a much easier time with keeping sex and emotions separate than I do. He doesn't want to lead Ted on at all, and I know that Ted is really new to this whole thing. But the thought of the 3 of us together, even once in a while, is very exciting to me. I think I've come to realize after hanging out with Ted that I wasn't necessarily looking for random hookups when we played with a third, but a potential "boyfriend" of sorts...

Congrats! You are a very normal gay man! And so is your husband and your FWB (for lack of a better term). It is quite common for committed gay men to have some sort of an open relationship, NSA sex, FWBs, some configuration of ethical non-monogamy. There are studies about this out there somewhere.

Here in poly land, where we can be male, female, trans, non-binary poly, mono partnered with a poly, bi, gay, straight, pansexual, we usually call having casual NSA sex akin to "swinging." In that configuration, steps are taken to not become emotionally attached, and love is a bad word.

I have to disagree with Mags here. I don't consider all casual, FWB, NSA etc. sex to be like swinging. I don't consider all sex where an emotional component is not wanted to be swinging. Open relationships, swinging, casual sex, NSA, FWB can all be subsets of ethical non-monogamy.

Swinging, to me, is more of a subculture of ethical non-monogamy, one that often does emphasize physical and friendly connections over emotional and romantic connections. But there are many swingers who only swing with others that they have developed an intimate connection with.

For me, the line between swinging and poly is a fine one. They can shade into each other. Many poly folks are not into casual connections at all, but some are. Some swing as well as have multiple romantic relationships. Also swinging tends to be rather hetero-centric, if not outright homophobic. I hear this is slowly changing. But not all poly folks think of casual sex and swinging as the same.

That said, I think Mags has a point, and others who have commented too, that there is a potential mismatch or difference between what you personally may want: a romantic triad with three men, or some variation of polyamory, where love and romance are part of the relationship, and what your husband wants. He seems to prefer a more casual open relationship model, where love and commitment to outside partners is not allowed. Your expectations and dreams regarding outside partners may be very different.

It is definitely time to start a conversation with your husband, not in particular about Ted, but about what you may want down the line. Is he ok with outside committed relationships? Do both of you need to be involved with a third man?

Triads are the hardest relationship structure to form and maintain. Search 'triads' 'unicorn' 'third' 'couple privilege' and similar words here to learn more about triads and get a sense of the pitfalls. What about each of you being involved with another? That's called a V.

If falling in love happens, how to handle it? On this forum, we see a lot of pain and drama caused by people who expect their partners to walk away from a lover. Personally, I believe it is best to remain more on the casual side of things than inflict that kind of damage on all involved.

It is difficult to control who falls in love with whom, especially if there is cuddling, doin activities together, getting to know each other. That is indeed a recipe for falling in love. It's generally not possible to control feelings. We feel what we feel.

There is lots to mull over here, lots to learn and sort out what you and hubs (and maybe Ted too) believe, and where you want to go. This is not a conversation that will wrap up quickly. It could take years. But now is a good time to start it with your husband, regardless of how things shake out with Ted.

It is probably a bit early to start this kind of conversation with Ted. It is early days yet. And he sounds relatively new to being out, being gay, having gay connections, etc. If things progress emotionally? Well, then yes, conversations with all three of you would be necessary. But if he is ok with being the occasional third in your marital bed? I would hold off until you and your husband have begun talking.

 

[Drummerboy74]

All of these points are very valid. Makes sense.

To answer one question though-- there would be no relationship other than with both my hubby and me together. It would be a triad of sorts, if it were to ever go anywhere, not a V-type relationship. No emotional relationship for either of us separately outside our marriage. That is something I know we would both agree on. And I agree that it is way too early to speak with Ted about any of this. My hubby and I would def talk first.

 

[GalaGirl]

The thing that is really stopping me from asking these questions to both of them (especially my hubby) is that I think it may be too early for it.

You already have shared passionate sex with Ted. You are now confused as to how to proceed because you find you have soft loving feelings toward him. But you are not going to have conversations with DH and Ted to clarify, because it is "too early" to ask what each of you expects from this/these relationship/s? That sounds like you are talking yourself out of doing what needs to be done, imo.

I would have had those kinds of conversations with hubby before opening the marriage and sharing sex with others. To me, this is catching up on conversations that could have been had before.

But that's me. *shrug*

I also feel that I'd be convincing my hubby to give this a try, when I know that it isn't what he wants. Obviously, there's an issue there.

When did you ask your husband to consider his willingness for polyshipping with Ted, so that you know for a fact that he's not willing, because he said "No"?

You seem to dance around answering that point blank. Did you or did not not actually ask your husband?

Is it that you do not want to actually ask at this time, because you fear his response is going to be "No, thank you. I'm not interested in more than casual-sex fun"? And then hubby may no longer even want to hang out with Ted, much less share sex with him, because now he knows you have loving feelings for Ted? I'm wondering if that is a reason for your reticence/avoiding.

My best bet at the point is to prob just see how it goes from here on out, naturally and organically. Thoughts?

If that is what you prefer, so be it.

But I disagree. I think your best bet is having this conversation with hubby and Ted, each in turn, and all 3 in the same room, so you all know where you stand on what each one wants, and can proceed to enjoy the relationship without this cloud over your head. Either as friends only, FWBs, or something more. But at least all on the same page here. If your hope is to someday be in a triad... then you could practice having these kinds of talks and sharpen your communication skills. You have to start somewhere, sooner or later.

 

[opalescent]

There would be no relationship other than with both my hubby and me together. It would be a triad of sorts, if it were to ever go anywhere, not a V-type relationship. No emotional relationship for either of us separately outside our marriage. That is something I know we would both agree on. And I agree that it is way too early to speak with Ted about any of this. My hubby and I would def talk first.

A lot of people want what you want, and there is nothing wrong with that at all. But... it is freakin' hard and full of pitfalls. (Ethical non-monogamy is full of pitfalls in general.)

Amble about this forum. There are lots and lots of threads on various aspects of triads. And while there will be some differences, because you are all gay men, the general points on unicorn hunting and couple privilege still generally apply. Do searches for both here. Lots to read!

I also find Solo Poly blog interesting - http://solopoly.net/. You do not need to agree with her point of view to get information out of her posts. She does a better job than most of explaining the implications of couple privilege and the 'escalator' in relationship.

There are some books that may be useful to you. I like both the Ethical Slut and Opening Up. Both are on Amazon. Neither are exclusively polyamory-focused. Opening Up in particular describes a bunch of different ways to be ethically non-monogamous.

 

[Drummerboy74]

I def want to talk with my hubby about this, no question. I know he feels this way because he has said in the past that he does not want a boyfriend or a three-person relationship. This has been stated. However it's a Catch 22, in a way. Total monogamy is not ever going to happen. That's a fact. Threesomes will continue, and chances are that at some point feelings will develop again (with someone else). So it's kind of a lose-lose situation in some ways. I am not overly interested in casual sex. I find it cold and unfulfilling. But maybe that's the way it should be with us.

 

[GalaGirl]

I def want to talk with my hubby about this, no question.

Good.

If these are the limits you have to work within:

He has said in the past that he does not want a boyfriend or a 3-person relationship.

I am not overly interested in casual sex. I find it cold and unfulfilling.

1) You could stay monogamous as a couple, and stop engaging in "lose-lose" behavior.

2) You could open so that hubby can have casual sex elsewhere, while you do not.

3) You could open open so that you can have meaningful love relationships with others, and hubby does not.

4) Or both 2 and 3.

I'm sure it is hard to feel and process, but the behaviors are pretty straight up. Talk to him.

 

[Drummerboy74]

Thank you all. Your responses have been awesome and have helped a lot.

One other thing to mention -- this desired "triad" of sorts wouldn't really be a true full-time relationship, at least not for quite a while. We both have busy lives, and family and friends we see often, events, holidays, etc. This would almost be a continuation of what it is now, with maybe the added knowledge that it is "something," not just a trick we have over sometimes. Maybe I should stop trying to find a label for it? Ha.

Oh, and I did just buy Opening Up and Ethical Slut on Amazon.

 

[london]

You need to start thinking about Ted. So far, you want him to have sex with you both, stop his/your feelings from going too far, and plough the lines in your marriage.

What about Ted?
What can you offer him?
You say you don't like casual sex, but any sort of romantic attachment is forbidden in your relationship?
Doesn't that automatically make the sex casual?
You have feelings for Ted, and hubby doesn't?
Why can't you acknowledge that you are individuals that feel differently, so a blanket ruling isn't going to work very effectively?

What makes sense, to me, is you carry on as you are, with some progression of the relationship with you and Ted, which reflects your feelings for him, and his for you.

 

[JaneQSmythe]

My best bet at the point is to prob just see how it goes from here on out, naturally and organically. Thoughts?

I'm going to go against the general grain of responses here and say that, at this point, this is what I would do.

You go on to say:

One other thing to mention -- this desired-after "triad" of sorts wouldn't really be a true full-time relationship. ... This would almost be a continuation of what it is now - with maybe the added knowledge that it is "something" - not just a trick we have over sometimes. Maybe I should stop trying to find a label for it?

I know the poly mantra is "Communicate, communicate, communicate," but I have never understood the need to determine ahead of time what the "goals" of a relationship are; what it is "supposed to look like" down the road.

If the three of you are enjoying yourselves and appreciating what you have now, then why try to shape it into something different, or label and define it? It is what it is.

Sure, deeper feelings may develop over time, or one of the three of you may decide that you are no longer happy participating in this three-way thing the way you are now.

On another note, I agree with Opal here:

I don't consider all casual, FWB, NSA etc. sex to be swinging. I don't consider all sex where an emotional component is not wanted to be swinging. Open relationships, swinging, casual sex, NSA, FWB can all be subsets of ethical non-monogamy. Swinging to me is more of a subculture of ethical non-monogamy, one that often does emphasize physical and friendly connections over emotional and romantic connections. ... Also swinging tends to be rather hetero-centric, if not outright homophobic.

Not all relationships have to be deep and growing deeper. For me, it is possible to have "casual sex" with my friends. We do have a "relationship," that of friendship, as opposed to say, random sex with anonymous strangers or one-night-stands. Not all "casual sex" is the same.

It is difficult to control who falls in love with who, especially if there is cuddling, doing activities together, getting to know each other. That is indeed a recipe for falling in love. It's generally not possible to control feelings. We feel what we feel.

This may be specific to the individual. For me, these are activities that are a recipe for creating bonds between people, but not necessarily romantic bonds (even if you throw sex into the list). Maybe it is because I am not someone who "falls in love" easily. It's happened exactly twice for me. Or maybe my definition of "love" is much more narrow. Maybe it's because my "friendships" are all very close. (I don't have "casual" friends. I call those "acquaintances.") My friendships share a lot of qualities that people associate with "love."

**********

Just an alternative perspective...

Jane ("If-it-ain't-broke-don't-fix-it") Q

 

[Drummerboy74]

Just wanted to post a quick update of this situation. Our new friend spent the entire weekend here with us last weekend, and the three of us get along really, really well. Went to see a hockey game on Sun, stayed over Sat & Sun nights, and went to work from here on Mon morning. We are gonna see him again for a couple nights in two weeks, and prob late Dec as well -- and we are going away together for a weekend in Jan to a ski area. We all "group text" pretty much every day. He has told us that he def has feelings for us. But I still think my hubby is either hesitant or even mostly against the idea of a triad. I DO know that he likes him, and is absolutely attracted to him. I think he's just a bit more "traditional" than I am. So I still don't know where this is going, but it's been pretty damn enjoyable so far. Thoughts?