Not Feeling the Connectivity

Wow, that's a lot to take in, eklctc. Hopefully some sleep will be beneficial. It's hard when people hide stuff. I guess it's good that it comes out, but it can be pretty difficult.

For the longest time, there have been things I've been wanting to say, but couldn't, and this morning we finally had that conversation. I feel relieved (among other things). But it was a really rough conversation.

I wonder if triads are easier to form when there is no established couple. Darn those couples and their established communication patterns. ;) It's like its own culture.

I hope that you can find some clarity about the future possibilities of the relationship(s). I know I'm having a hard time with the inconsistency of everyone's desires/possibilities/structures. I hope you can find an answer that makes you happy.
 
All I have to say is that when the baby comes, things will be OMG DIFFERENT. If you think you're in a "secondary" position/role NOW, don't expect to be up-graded when the baby comes.

I know it's easy for me to say from where I sit, but I think you should let them go and do their baby-thing together and cut your losses and find someone(s) who are able to give you what YOU need out of a relationship. I'm probably gonna get shot down for saying this: I don't think you will find what you say you want by "joining" an existing couple (unless it's a couple that is very experienced with having a "third" AND is adept in dealing with the issues that come up in such a situation).

THis whole thing with couples and "thirds" freaks me out a bit because it seems that often the couple is viewed by themselves AND the prospective "third" as "one unit", when they are NOT, no matter how you try. They are TWO PEOPLE with TWO SEPARATE sets of needs, TWO SEPARATE personalities, TWO SEPARATE sets of expectations, etc., and nothing anyone can say or do will change that.
 
eklctc said:
I managed to have my discussion with my partners, and a very interesting and vital revelation has come out of it. While Grant understood and agree with me on my viewpoints, and acknowledged they were things he needed to work on, Carrie told me that she was not as physically attracted to me as, she believes, I am to her. She said could probably take or leave our relationship, because her focus is on personal goals (which is understandable). She basically stated that she would be interested in continuing to hang out with me and being friends, but she does not desire the sexual aspect of the relationship.

I'm glad that information came out, though, I am upset to find out that (1) both partners had kept this knowledge hidden from me, (2) Carrie had basically subjected herself to interactions that she really didn't want with me, and (3) we really are not working towards what was originally discussed and I'm the last one to find out.
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Hey Eklctc,

Okay, no surprises here for me. Why? Because this is probably one of the most common difficulties surrounding potential triads, quads, whatever. It's hard enough for two people to connect on various levels (sexual, emotional, philosophical, political, etc.). It's even more difficult to get three to agree on the same level. Where this leads to problems and disillusionment is when it's set up from day one as "The Goal." Once you frame it that way, it can close up your mind towards other possibilities. It can become an all or nothing thing. The result? Nothing! Because it's quite unrealistic, given human nature.

Don't take it personally that Carrie is not as attracted physically to you as Grant is. That's human nature. It doesn't mean she doesn't care for you on a number of different planes, but just that sexually, you're not connecting. That's fine. Matter of fact, it's pretty common. I bet you know all sorts of people you either do, or could, care a lot about, but don't feel sexual chemistry with. Or maybe you respect them, and care about them, but have various philosophical differences. That's fine.

Assuming Carrie cares enough about you to allow you and Grant to continue along and explore the depth, I say, go for it. Just keep in mind her role, be kind and respectful, and try to meld with both on other levels. It really can work fine.

Is that your "ideal" situation? Seems not. But things are seldom ideal. So we learn to make the best we can, all the while keeping an eye open for situations that may be closer, or an alternative to, that ideal. It's just how it is.

Make lemonade. ;)
 
@ray- I'm glad you managed to have your conversation and it didn't completely change your stance in your current relationship.

Mine is a different story. I already knew that there was something going on with Carrie, but no one had shared anything with me. They both continued to do and say other things that followed the original expectations. However, the mixed signals were what brought me to this point.

It seems like you and your partners are still at least in it together.
 
I'm pretty much with Neon Kaos. Keep your options wide open, because a baby will change a lot.

Consider the possible mindset of a new mother-- her body has changed, so she is possibly feeling less attractive, more possessive of the co-provider for the child, resenting being the "babysitter" while her husband enjoys fun and sex with his girlfriend. Based on her attitude towards you, I'd say she is already sending a message that this is more about what he wants, for sure. Protect your heart, my friend.

And remember, as always, I could be completely full of shit. ;)
 
@Neon- I did realize things would be different once the baby was introduced. However, with all three of us involved in the relationship, and me already being a mother, it seemed that we could work through that fine, and build a family. Prior to this point, she had already been pregnant. We all bonded well through that period, but she lost that baby. :cry:


Now there is no pregnancy, but they are actively trying. (I think it's not the best time, because of other stresses she is dealing with, but my opinion was not asked.) However, it took them forever to conceive the child she lost (due to schedules, physical/emotional stresses), so, since the circumstances haven't changed in that aspect, I believe it is something that won't happen immediately. That's just my untrained analysis, though.

You may be right, Neon, about seeking non-attached people for a multi-partner relationship. I know there are people out there, already coupled, who do operate more individually, and can really embrace an additional partner in the way I seek (an ex and I were really good at this), but I also believe they are few and far between. Additionally, I've lived in Denver almost two years as of next month and, in those two years, my couple (who I met in June) are the only compatible relationship prospects I have had.

I totally agree with you regarding couples still being individual people. I have had to tell Grant that twice in this relationship, because he tended to divert to what "we" think, or say, "I think we should not go into anymore detail until we can involve Carrie." Mind you, I have always equally inquired and discussed things with both of them. I realize that they both have their own viewpoints, and then they have "their" viewpoint, and I was interested in all of them.
 
@GS- At this point, I can't help but take it personally that Carrie is not physically attracted to me (even though what she said was, she wasn't as physically attracted to me as I was to her-- whatever the fuck that means). I take it personally because I feel they have both led me on. Carrie has been sexual with me, solo, knowing she really didn't want to. She has participated with Grant and me together, knowing she really didn't want to have sex with me. She has consistently made comments that made me think she was attracted to me, while knowing that was not true.

Another thing that has gotten under my skin is-- on what has she based her statement of me being more physically attracted to her? What has been her measure in coming to that conclusion? Whatever the case, she would be wrong. Solely based on physical attraction, she would not be my pick. However, I view people from the inside out. She has many traits that I admire, and she and I have many of the same characteristics. The beauty I find within her fuels the attraction without. Plus, when I got to the point to where I allowed myself to be completely emotionally open to them, my inward attraction increased, adding again to my outward attraction.

Her statement, for me, also implies that she has never opened herself up to connecting with me emotionally, though, that is not what her mouth said in the relationship. I mean, maybe I just operate differently, but I can be attracted to someone for various reasons. When it comes to someone I am looking for something more with, their physical attractiveness doesn't play a big role in my decision, because that is an attribute that can change if one only has the desire to do so. I have to be attracted to someone facially, but on a deeper level, the lack of total physical attraction would not deter me if there were other aspects of the person I was attracted to.

And... this is kind of shallow, but we have met up over the last two weekends with a couple they have been swinging with, sporadically, for 5-6 years. I don't mean to judge, but it raises a point for me. The woman of the couple is pretty, but not physically appealing, yet Carrie doesn't have an issue with having sex with her. Grant voiced that he was not physically attracted to the woman, but she has other attributes that he likes, thereby allowing him to interact with her sexually. That point just makes me wonder if Carrie has been completely forthcoming about her stance.

During our discussion, Carrie did say that she didn't know what to tell me. She didn't know if I should look for something that would fulfill my needs better, or if Grant and I should continue without her. He expressed that he loves me, and he doesn't want it to end, but he knows I do not desire a secondary role, nor a far-spread V relationship. Then we kind of reflected on the things we wanted in the future, like my moving into the house in 2012, and this all-inclusive emotional bond we wanted, etc.

Grant and I also pondered, with the change, what the future would look like, because I can not totally invest myself emotionally in him when I know he cannot provide the same level of emotional interaction. Since we are not all together, how long will Carrie be okay with our in-depth, individual relationship at the current level and building? Or if she finds other people more to her liking to introduce into the relationship, will she want our relationship to end so that they can have the all-inclusive relationship under one roof?

Another issue that I have to deal with internally is my detachment. I am very good at completely shutting off my emotional/physical interaction with people when I have decided I have reached my threshold in that situation and/or when I feel they have hurt/betrayed me. As I told them last night, with the revelation, the detachment from Carrie has already begun. I allowed myself to open up and become vulnerable to her, but she intentionally hid an important aspect of our relationship from me. That hurts, and it's hard for me to take that lightly.

This makes me question what else has been kept from me and what, that has been shared, is genuine. So, that equals hurt and doubt. With that said, my desire to build a relationship with Carrie, on any level, will quickly become non-existent, which, as I mentioned to them last night, concerns me, because I don't know how that will affect things with Grant.

Thanks for your feedback. I'm all too familiar with life's circumstances, so I'll definitely continue to move forward, and attempt to find a happy medium in the meantime.
 
@Mono- You are funny. 😁 I provided detailed information about the whole situation regarding a baby in my response to Neon that you can refer to. I am well aware of those possibilities. It was actually a concern that I brought up to both of them during the first pregnancy. I know the dynamics will be completely different now that Carrie and I are not involved, so that is another major-decision crossroads that I will have to prepare for when another baby comes into the picture (gods willing).
 
@Neon- Thanks for your response. 😁

Unfortunately, I've never experienced a relationship strain during my successful pregnancies, or after the addition so, no, I can't relate to that or say I know what you're talking about. Then again, I've never been a codependent type and I've always had the mindset that, regardless of what happens and who's involved, I have to always remember my sense of responsibility for myself, my children, etc., so my relationships during pregnancy/child-rearing were pretty free of stresses. I did endure a lot of stress during one due, to outside interference, that resulted in losing a child at 7 months pregnant, but that is not related to the topic at hand, really.

Then too, I don't have little children anymore, so maybe I've missed out on this new dynamic of complications in those life changes that I take to be naturally flowing and no big deal. My kids are 17 and 11. Stepchildren that I still deal with are 22, 19, and 14.

Who knows? I might be content being the side piece of "on-call ass" when they successfully bring in a new addition. I never know where the Universe will take me. ;)
 
I deleted the post that you're referring to because I felt it was just re-iterating the obvious.

It sounds like you're better equipped to deal with the stressors of every-day life than many people out there. Therefore it's no wonder that you're finding your dating-pool to be somewhat limited.
 
@Neon- thanks for the vote of confidence. Sheesh. :D j/k Yeah, I've been told throughout my years that I have a limited people base to work with in various aspects. It's okay. I know I am destined for happiness, success, and love, so I will continue to live through the trials, learn, influence, and hopefully be magnificent when I do find the right circumstances for me!
 
ray said:
. I wonder if triads are easier to form when there is no established couples. Darn those couples and their established communication patterns. ;) It's like its own culture.
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Ray, too funny!

Eklctc, you are a strong lady. I admire you! Keep us posted on how it's panning out.
 
Hi again, Eklctc,

eklctc said:
@GS- At this point, I can't help but take it personally that she is not physically attracted to me (even though what she said was, she wasn't as physically attracted to me as I was to her-- whatever the fuck that means). I take it personally because I feel they have both led me on. She has been sexual with me, solo, knowing she really didn't want to. She has participated with Grant and me together, knowing she really didn't want to have sex with me...
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I can see your frustration, seriously. It makes me wonder whether she in particular has ever gotten beyond the phase of keeping her real feelings, etc., beyond the superficial level that always exists between people at first. I think you are alluding to as much when you say it's apparent she hasn't allowed herself to open fully to you on an emotional level. Maybe we are saying the same thing.

And it's common, and desirable in some cases, to go with the flow for a bit, even though we don't initially have/feel the real desire with the idea that first impressions may be wrong, things can grow over time, etc. You get the idea. If this is the way she operates internally, it may be that she's only coming to a realization after some time that the connection just isn't going to be there. But she gave it an honest try, I guess, sexually and whatever else.

And the crazy thing is that a lot of times, it's simple, stupid little things! Maybe she doesn't like your perfume, how much makeup you wear, your laugh, etc., etc.

Which makes me wonder again if you guys have ever progressed to the place where you can be totally honest with each other and all understand its importance, and that anything that needs saying won't be taken as hurtful. It's not easy for a lot of people, especially those who have had to live a life in the "politically correct" stream. Wouldn't it be a shame to find out is was just a preference in body oil fragrance? Not likely the case, but who knows?

So, are you there yet? Is she? Are you all as a group?

It's not natural in modern society. Takes a lot of retraining.
 
I feel for you. I would take it personally too, in light of the swinging thing and the secrecy. I would be mighty confused and hurt.

I think that a V could work, no? I am the hinge of a V, and we are working just fine as a unit of three. A triad indicates sex and connection that comes with it, to me. But my two guys have connection and a strong bond. That is why it works so well. I think that it's ideal, really, and could be for you, too. After all, you know your new metamour more that most would at this stage, which might be a good thing. An adjustment would have to occur though. It's hard to go from girlfriend to metamour.
 
@GS- Thanks again for your feedback. You know, I don't know what I know, at this point, as far as Carrie is concerned. I did have my regular meet-up with Grant last night, and we are on the same page. But he has to sit down and speak with her so they can figure out where she truly is and, in turn, where they are, before he and I will know what options he and I have.

Personally, I have always been a brutally honest person (though I do try to exercise some tact at least 50% of the time) with myself and with others. I don't put up my hologram for anyone. (Well, I may turn her on just a bit in Corporate America. :D) I have been a "This is me. Yake me as I am or move the hell over," type of person for at least 15 years. I know this is not the norm for many. It is hard for people to allow themselves to connect with a person like that, because it forces them to take a long, hard look at themselves.

Well, that Look is not as bad as people think. It's refreshing, revealing, and liberating. But I understand that many are not ready for that type of scrutiny of self.

I don't have an issue with being totally honest. I operate that way in my daily life, regardless of the relationship type it is applied to. I don't know any other way to live. Then again, I began straying from the viewpoints and bandwagon of modern society as a teenager, and have never looked back, so there is much about my experiences and viewpoints that do not get approval. :D

You are right, GS. Maybe she did take the "go with the flow" approach, so I wouldn't fault her for that. However, where does her verbal and physical expressions of emotional connection, interests in my sexual satisfaction, and attraction fall under that "go with the flow" approach? Where does the line cease at giving an honest effort, hoping your original perspective can broaden along the way, and turn into leading someone on by intentionally acting in a way that doesn't support that perspective?
 
@redpepper- Thanks for stopping by. A V could work at some point, but I know I have to sort through my emotions around her. I don't take being hurt and misled lightly, so it is something I have to work on. You are absolutely right. It is definitely a hard blow when your relationship role changes so drastically, so quickly. They are very new to polyamory (as opposed to swinging), and it was really Grant's desire and ideal setting, so we'll have to see what comes out of their conversation before we will know if a V is something Carrie could consider comfortably.
 
eklctc said:
Maybe she did take the "go with the flow" approach, so I wouldn't fault her for that. However, where does her verbal and physical expressions of emotional connection, interests in my sexual satisfaction, and attraction fall under that approach? Where does the line cease at giving an honest effort, hoping your original perspective can broaden along the way, and turn into leading someone on by intentionally acting in a way that doesn't support that perspective?
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Yeah, it seems you and I are cut from much the same cloth. I've always tried to just be real in all circumstances possible, too, and have paid the penalty on more than one occasion.

The reason I mention this is that I think it makes it harder (less tolerable) when we find ourselves dealing with someone with a different outlook/approach.

Was she lying to herself, expressing what she hoped for, and thought it would appear via verbalizing it (before she tested it for validity)?

Was she saying what she thought you others wanted to hear, again in hopes it might take that direction?

Or was it genuine in the beginning, and something changed? It IS possible. Maybe some quirk she discovered about you that wasn't apparent in the beginning? Did you fart at a bad moment? ;)

Who knows? Humans are such funny creatures. Maybe if you ask nicely you can find the truth. And maybe... never.
 
@GS- You are funny. 😁 Just FYI, I have yet to fart. I don't wear make-up in general. I don't wear perfume, though I do wear essential oils, but not around them, since they have allergies and sensitive skin issues. I do understand your point, though.

You are right, it could be anything, but I can only go off of what she said the issue was, and what she said, verbatim, was "I am less physically attracted to you than you are to me," to be followed by her desire to cease sexual interaction. Now, we are both thicker women (size 16-20) and I have done nothing but drop weight and inches since we've been seeing each other. (I've been working on that for myself.) I'm kind of OCD about hygiene in general, so I'm up to par in that area. I don't get it.

But figuring out what her real deal is doesn't really matter to me anymore. Ultimately, it's for her to figure out. I've been reassigned. ;) I will sift through my emotions about it and come out on top, whatever the outcome. :D
 
@eklctc, you know a thread is good when it reads a bit like a soap opera! Thanks to everyone for helping me learn more about polyamory, since I'm new to the concept. I agree with both GS and Neon about your options.

But I say go for what you truly want, because second choices aren't as satisfying. I know from personal exp. I thought getting with a couple would make a triad easier. But I'm thinking a couple of friends would be better for me. But I suggest looking wherever you feel you can find your ideal partners. Leave no stone unturned and you'll find each other when/where you least expect it.

That's my 2 cents. Hope it helps. Thanks again, all!
 
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