Objectification (sexual, etc.)

River

Well-known member
As a bi man, I've been often rather astonished at how little discussion one can find, or participate in, anywhere, about sexual objectification in the gay/bi/queer male milieu. One can find plenty -- from feminists and feminism -- about this problem in the het milieu. In the gay/bi/queer male milieu objectification of persons not only tends (it seems to me) to be regarded as "normal" for that milieu, but quite expectedly so. "That's just they way men/guys are" we are generally encouraged to believe.

In modern capitalist industrial 'cultures' (societies) the objectivization of of persons is more and more accepted as "normal," generally. Those who have a problem with it are regarded as the "abnormal ones" consequentially. Our problem with such objectification is held in suspicion, as if we had some kind of mental or emotional disorder.

Do I exaggerate? I wish I were. I really do. But in my experience the objectification of persons is becoming -- rather rapidly -- culturally normalized while its alternatives are becoming regarded as a silly relic of a forgone epoch.
 
Gods know Donald J. Trump objectifies.
 
Gods know Donald J. Trump objectifies.

And that from an atheist!

Yes, Trump is a bit of slime mold that the world would be happier to be free of.
 
Becoming the cultural norm? It's been normal for as long as I can remember.

This.

Where and when in all of history has the cultural norm been otherwise? Any time you get out of small towns, small tribes and into larger populations, you are going to run into all kinds of objectification, sexual and otherwise. Women objectify men according to their status and power to provide. Objectification has always been prevalent once you go beyond the small group and you don't know everyone personally.

Also, what do you mean by objectification and what is the opposite that you say is reviled? I think of the opposite of objectification as being kind to individuals just because they are individuals. Is this considered a mental disorder? :eek:
 
LOL, I'm deformed by my local community,...

...at first I thought this is going to be a thread about kink ;)
 
…. Also, what do you mean by objectification and what is the opposite that you say is reviled? I think of the opposite of objectification as being kind to individuals just because they are individuals. Is this considered a mental disorder? :eek:

I think Wikipedia's definition for sexual objectification is plenty adequate as a definition.:

"Sexual objectification is the act of treating a person as a mere object of sexual desire. Objectification more broadly means treating a person as a commodity or an object without regard to their personality or dignity. Objectification is most commonly examined at the level of a society, but can also refer to the behavior of individuals and is a type of dehumanization."

excerpted from - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_objectification

Sexual objectification is just one of many ways people can objectify persons, and this thread is titled in such a way as to invite discussion not only of sexual objectification but objectification generally.

I didn't go quite so far as to say that pointing out the reprehensive nature of sexual objectification in the gay/bi male milieu was "reviled". What I did say is that "Our problem with such objectification is held in suspicion, as if we had some kind of mental or emotional disorder." What I was trying to point out is that in various (many, not all) places where gay/bi/queer men might be found talking amongst themselves sexual objectification will be considered normal, and questioning it will be considered dubious or dismissible out of hand.

Because the word "normal" has so many various and conflicting definitions, I should be clear that the sense of "normal" I'm employing here akin to its traditional and historical usage in medical discourse -- "his heart is normal," "his lungs are normal".... That is, these organs function as they should, as expected, on account of their not having pathology or "abnormality". I'm not medicalizing sexual objectification, however. I'm simply using the term in a kindred fashion with the medical term.

To my mind, sexual objectification is pathological -- whether culturally or individually manifest. So it really bothers me that it has been "normalized" -- taken for granted as expected while also not regarded as pathological.

I suspect pornography is partly to blame for the cultural "normalization" of sexual objectification. I have absolutely nothing against erotic films, mind you! But explicit, erotic films need not contribute to the cultural normalization of sexual objectification. But it seems that almost all explicit erotic films (porn) do tend to perpetuate sexual objectification (whatever the sexual orientation of the "actors").

To call something which mainstream culture "normalizes" "pathological" is to be marginalized, generally -- at least.
 
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There are a very many ways in which sexual objectification can show up. In my observation, one of the most common ways it shows up is in the gay/bi male milieu is in the various apps and websites men use to attempt to find others with whom some intimacy might be shared. These venues often become hypersexualized in precisely an objectifying way -- of a particular kind. That is, attributes of personality, interests (outside the bedroom), etc., are seldom mentioned in many of these venues. These guys routinely want to know "stats" (data involving height, weight and various details about genitalia, etc.). And that's fine, I suppose, but these venues tend to be saturated exclusively in the language of bodies, body parts and sexual acts -- with little mention of … well, of anything else. No one seems to care what kind of music we enjoy, whether or not we're into outdoor activities, whether we read novels and poetry.... All of the so-called "interior" aspects of a person, which once was called "soul" is disregarded and only a hunk of flesh remains. This is not simply a matter of casual sex, you see! It's a complete erasure of the interior dimension of "soul," of feelings, needs (beyond sexual pleasure), … of the person himself.

Would you prefer to meet a prospective massage exchange partner for coffee or tea before having him come to your home and get naked on your massage table? "Sorry, I don't have time for tea or coffee, but I'd like a massage please."
 
Is it pathological or simply natural? After all, in the end, we are just animals. Our main purpose is to breed. We are driven to have sex (with obvious exceptions). It's a fine line between attraction and objectification.
 
Is it pathological or simply natural? After all, in the end, we are just animals. Our main purpose is to breed. We are driven to have sex (with obvious exceptions). It's a fine line between attraction and objectification.

Yes, we are animals all right. Not sure what the word "just" is supposed to do here? Is the word "just" meant to say that values and ethics and aesthetics are to be disregarded?

Purpose? Our purpose is to breed? That makes us a very strange animal, since we do so many things that have little or nothing to do with breeding, such as making music and art, cultivating the father reaches of human potential. I guess these are just not necessary since we are just animals?

I think treating people--and ourselves--as if they/we are 'just' hunks of animal flesh is pathological and pathogenic. That is, it is both an expression and a cause of pathology. It is not the kind of animal we are. We are better than that.

I disagree that there is but a fine line between attraction and objectification. There is a freaking Grand Canyon of wide open space between these two.
 
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I said, "I think treating people--and ourselves--as if they/we are 'just' hunks of animal flesh is pathological and pathogenic."

And I realize this may be very misleading. And I likewise realized that explaining what I mean is not going to be easy.

I could start with analogous examples, perhaps.:

"A Stradivarius is just a hunk of wood with some strings attached."

"The Bach Cello Suites are just a bunch of markings on paper and/or, perhaps, some vibrations in the air."

"The Louvre in Paris is just a building holding a bunch of pigmented pieces of canvas and carved rocks."


There may be those who think because we're animals and not weightless spiritual angels in the sky that there can be nothing (nothing material on Earth) sacred. But I certainly do not hold that opinion.

To treat sacred things as just a hunk of material stuff, with no meaning or value, is to desacralize what shows up as sacred -- even if we are secularist non-theists (such as myself). The sacred did not disappear when we learned modern science. It's still here! But now it's on a different plane of existence which some philosophers call "the immanent plane" -- meaning within this very world, not descending from Heaven and arising out of the dictates of a distant sky god.

If we have no appreciation for the sacred, we are in the thrall of pathology. It's all well and good to pluck the angel wings from humankind, but why then toss him / her in the sewer?

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A bit of cultural history from my perspective...

I'm thinking of traditional religions of all kind as having been engaged in gilding the lily. The original lily was beautiful without such gilding, but formalized religions took it upon themselves to appropriate all ungilt lilies to themselves, whereupon every lily that could be found was covered in gold leaf. Natural lilies became practically extinct, as the very definition of "the sacred" became defined as the gilded lily of religion. That is, religion decided that there was the lower world of "mere" stuff (just animals) and a "higher" world of ultimate transcendence way up and above us and quite invisible -- not of this world.

Along come Enlightenment philosophers and, with these (in a dance of enfolded inspirations), modern science, which showed that in fact angels are not needed to move the stars across the sky. Modern naturalism was born. And with that it seemed to so very many that all of the "true sacred" was stripped away, revealing mere (just) lilies. After all, "the sacred" was defined as the Great Distance between The Above and Far Away Not Here, which sometimes graces the merely here with its magical fairy dust, rendering some things or places (such as churches and priests) "sacred".

But all along the lily (this very world, our animal flesh) has been sacred, and no gold leaf was ever necessary in the least for the sacred to be dazzlingly present to all who have eyes with which to see, ears with which to hear and 'hearts' with which to feel. (Here, I'm not referring to the blood-pumping organ.) The sacred is not Beyond and Far Away, but right here. It's been here all the while. Nothing of it has been lost in stripping the lilies of their gold patina.

So, as you see, I do think of the human (sexual or otherwise) objectification process as a rather extreme form of desacralization of the sacred, resulting in a pathetic diminishment of the dignity of the human beings caught up in this diminishment. It's actually, to my mind, a pathological incapacity to see, hear, taste and touch … all very animal / bodily things, right? But, along with myriad poets (Blake, Whitman, Ginsberg et al) I regard human flesh as holy, divine.... Only these words (holy, divine) are not for me really theological terms. For me, the natural world (including its human bodies) and cosmos must either be sacred or … not. When we treat it as anything other than sacred and holy we tend to spit on it, blow it up with explosives, poison it, or otherwise mistreat it. So I'll go with "It's all holy / sacred".
 
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Yes, we are animals all right. Not sure what the word "just" is supposed to do here? Is the word "just" meant to say that values and ethics and aesthetics are to be disregarded?

Believe it or not, there are plenty of people out there who deny that human beings are animals.

Values, ethics, and aesthetics are social constructs.

Purpose? Our purpose is to breed? That makes us a very strange animal, since we do so many things that have little or nothing to do with breeding, such as making music and art, cultivating the father reaches of human potential. I guess these are just not necessary since we are just animals?
You are correct that none of that is necessary for the propagation of our species, though we do incorporate sex into music and art quite a bit.

It doesn't make us strange. It makes us like every other form of life on this planet.

I think treating people--and ourselves--as if they/we are 'just' hunks of animal flesh is pathological and pathogenic. That is, it is both an expression and a cause of pathology. It is not the kind of animal we are. We are better than that.

I disagree that there is but a fine line between attraction and objectification. There is a freaking Grand Canyon of wide open space between these two.

So which is it? Are we animals or are we not? We can't be an animal and be better than an animal at the.same time.

You are making this too complicated. Just because we have evolved with a complicated brain doesn't mean our biological purpose has changed.
 
Values, ethics, and aesthetics are social constructs.

Do you mean to say they are "just" (as in 'merely') social constructs?

Have you thought clearly and in depth into what it means--what is implicit and not--for something to be a social construct?

Let us be clear, your correct observation that humans are animals (mammals, primates) is itself a social construct, as are all of the best theories in science. Does this mean that gravity is a "social construct"? When are beliefs, theories and the sort NOT social constructs?

I'll address your other comments and questions once we've met this particular statement of yours square on.

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Like many or most neopragmatists, I subscribe to antidualism about "facts" and "values". I combine this tendency with an appreciation for ethico-aesthetic value thinking, which is to say that, for me, value is such that its ethical and aesthetic dimensions are of the same terrain, not two entirely discrete terrains or domains. Simply put, good and beauty are of one warp and woof cloth. Mean acts are ugly. Ugly acts are mean.
 
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Now you are just spiraling into woowoo-ism.

Gravity is gravity, whether we understand it or not. It doesn't just exist because we thought of it. We observe it.

Get me high enough and I'll agree everything is a social construct...lol
 
Now you are just spiraling into woowoo-ism.

No, actually, I was wondering if you knew--precisely, technically--the difference between a social construction and those beliefs and assumptions which are not social constructions.

You said, "Values, ethics, and aesthetics are social constructs," which I took to mean (speculating here) that they are not based on actual knowledge and facts (?), or merely a matter of "taste" or preference. But you didn't actually say that, did you? I was trying to basically ask, "Well, so what? What's the significance of saying so? How does it all parse out?"

But you don't "believe" in philosophy, you once said. You only believe in "science". Am I right? So, since ethics and aesthetics are not hard sciences, one would presume, you can't put much importance on them.

What this ultimately does, it seems to me, is to toss out the baby with the bath water. I guess that's a fine way to treat a baby?

---edit---

It is as impossible to function in the world without value reasoning (e.g., ethics, aesthetics) as without the kind of logico-rational reasoning employed by science, and even this type of reasoning as employed by science requires and demands -- necessitates -- value reasoning. The idea that science is a realm of "pure logic" apart from value-thinking is an imaginary fantasy which the purest, soundest logical thinking can (if it be willing) discover by employing its own logical resources. One only has to look at the miserably failed project of the logical positivists to discover this! It is well known that this fantasy of a purely rational/logical "science" apart from the messy real world is, in fact, self contradictory.
 
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"The man’s body is sacred and the woman’s body is sacred,
No matter who it is, it is sacred—is it the meanest one in the laborers’ gang?
Is it one of the dull-faced immigrants just landed on the wharf?
Each belongs here or anywhere just as much as the well-off, just as much as you, Each has his or her place in the procession."

- Walt Whitman

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/45472/i-sing-the-body-electric

"Man has no Body distinct from his Soul; for that called Body is a portion of Soul discerned by the five Senses, the chief inlets of Soul in this age."

- William Blake

And if the body (yours and mine, all of ours, and also of the Earth) is not sacred, what will become of us and our "science"? What will become of Earth?

Scientific knowledge, per se, is incomplete. We must also KNOW what the poets know. And we can use their own methods to inquire.
 
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I found this quote while reading online this morning. It seems to speak to the question of what is "normal" (and what isn't) quite well, and interestingly.

"When a cultural body normalizes symptoms of trauma—anxiety, aggression, and disconnection from both other people and the more-than-human world—it invites and even compels people to assert power over their social and environmental landscapes with little regard for the consequences. The workings of a deeply traumatized cultural body are, I believe, what we witness when we read about the many challenges we face in today’s world. This cultural body rose to prominence over a long span of time, pushing less aggressive and ultimately less-traumatized cultural bodies to marginal areas or, in some cases, simply exterminating them. Its dominance now stands largely unchallenged except from the margins, and it remains oblivious to the fact it threatens its own existence."

Excerpted from - http://ericgarza.info/essays/awakening-to-the-traumacene/

An individual loses his/her "connection" (a sense of relational interbeing) as a consequence of certain kinds of trauma. Enough individuals experience this trauma and it contributes to the "trauma field" of the culture of which they are a part, thus creating the conditions in which yet more trauma is likely to occur, until the whole cultural "body" is traumatized.

This widespread disconnection manifests in myriad ways, including in the various forms of objectification of other humans, animals, etc....

Objectification is not "normal" or "natural" (to be expected on account of the kind of animal we are). It's a symptom of a disease process, or a disorder. It is pathology.
 
...
Purpose? Our purpose is to breed? That makes us a very strange animal, since we do so many things that have little or nothing to do with breeding, such as making music and art, cultivating the father reaches of human potential. I guess these are just not necessary since we are just animals? ...

I would say that our "biological" purpose is to breed, and even our human achievements have these roots in their nascent urges.

Music and art are the, human/thinking animal's version of the mating song, the bower bird's nest, the mating dances and rituals of many species. It is being sentient that adds the layer where these activities are meaningful outside of mating rituals.

I would also argue that advances in science and technology are of the same ilk. The tribal leaders who were smart enough to figure out the use of tools and fire and novel ways to obtain food and shelter, would have a greater chance of having their tribe survive and flourish. The fact that we now use these brains to pursue knowledge for it's own sake (sometimes to the detriment of our human "tribe's" survival - i.e. global warming) differentiates it, in degree, from a pure biological imperative.
 
It is being sentient that adds the layer where these activities are meaningful outside of mating rituals.

Worms are sentient.

So are knats.

Few organisms lack sentience.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/sentient

Sapience, on the other hand, appears to be much less common among Earth species.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/sapience?s=t

By their common usage in most dictionaries, though, sapience and sentience exist within myriad Earth species. Sapience, by the usual dictionary definition, is probably best understood as a spectrum of degree rather than a distinction of kinds. Most mammals and many birds, for example, exhibit some degree of sapience -- whereas Donald Trump, ostensibly a human, seems to have less sapience than many ravens I know.

Sometimes the word sapience has a more restrictive sense as employed, at times, in philosophy of mind and cognitive science (and related fields). Sometimes it has been used to refer to "having self awareness" (or awareness of one's own awareness) -- in addition to other properties of certain kinds of minds. Perhaps most complex organisms even have sapience as so defined. We can only speculate on this, so far as I can tell, as there is really no way to test for it -- or to ask the creature directly.

All of my life I've had both sentience and some level of sapience, as most humans do (Trump aside). I know, because I'm the only one who has direct access to my own experience/s.

However, I also know from my experience that human awareness can awaken to its own mysterious, inexplicable nature. Or awareness of awareness squared, or something. At least from time to time, in glimpses. I doubt many humans have dwelled in this "enlightened" … "awake" state for extended periods of time, such as months or years. It tends to be passing, sometimes lasting only a short moment. Sometimes for days. I can say that this state is something quite more than mere sapience, however defined. But it's really quite impossible to explain or define it! It's like a great big Aha! But you can't tell your friends what the Aha! is all about and be understood! They'll prolly shrug their shoulders and change the subject, or recommend a visit to a psychiatrist for a checkup. ;):p
 
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Hey!

Great that you are raising this topic. I am also bi but I do not circulate in the LGBTQI+ community where I live exactly because we have no shared values (I think as a woman it is a bit different, I guess). I believe this objectification is a part of capitalism and pinkwashing very relevant struggles and replacing them with glibness and shiny products.
We are experiencing the rise of narcissism and the decay of capitalism. We deal with people as if they are really commodities. No wonder objectification is there. It is what neoliberalism has turned feminism into also - hey, let's have women act like men and be managers and be bossy and heartless if they want to succeed!
It is normal to feel sexual attraction - like, I have these men that when I see them my body just screams "procreate!" or these women who are so so so beautiful I get all wet when I think about them. Not all the time, but it happens (I currently cringe at the thought of sex or somebody touching me). Sexuality should be expressed in sexual situations, which I think are private. Not when somebody is going to the store to buy bread. You do not objectify them or make them feel uncomfortable. Objectification should not be a cultural norm or be so publicly praised.
 
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