Opening marriage or breaking up?

polygone said:
I am not going to enter into details, but when you say that her 'good sex' might not be wrong is simply not true. There are some absolutes in all fields, and it's not simply a question of 'compatibility'. When it gets to the point where
- her body is like a minefield where the slightest deviation to the permitted 'route' is a complete turn-off for her (oral sex either way is simply off-limits, so when I start kissing her on the stomach I can already hear red alerts ringing)
- she demands complete darkness to have sex
- she's alwasy cold, so she needs everything to happen under the blankets, even if it's 90 degrees there
- she will never want to have sex unless I've had a shower less than a few hours ago
- she will mostly always make it so that we have sex right before going to sleep rather than in the middle of the afternoon or even early evening
- she does everything to keep herself quiet during sex, all I get as feedback of her climax is a big sigh when she comes


If a forum member was complaining about their partner offering a very narrow part of their heart / their feelings, I doubt anyone would say that the partner is not 'compatible'. They would just say that the partner is cold and not committed to attend to the happiness of that member. And for some reason when it comes to sex, the assumption is automatically that there is no 'compatibility'?
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Her good sex is absolutely not wrong, even with all the details provided. You want something else - but that is what she is willing to offer you. Her willingness is all hers, her body, her choice.

And yes, there is something called "emotional incompatibility", too. On these forums it is often discussed. Many times in the terms of "love languages" and such. And yes, I have read on these forums advice of leaving a relationship with incompatibility in other areas than sex.
 
FeatherFool said:
I believe that we can choose to be more than the products of our histories......I was referring to his apparent behaviours as a whole, not to the cheating in specific.
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I absolutely agree with you that we can choose to be more than the products of our histories. I'm older than the OP and did choose a different route in my marriage, despite very little social support.

I was referring to the judging of "cheaters" in general in this community and the vilification that usually is assumed. I apologize for zeroing in on your comment, for it's a much larger discussion than one between you and me.

The question about whether the OP's wife or anyone's spouse owes the other effort to please in bed: No. I was married to someone with whom I'm sexually incompatible (read: don't find him sexually attractive in the least) and I can find all manner of ways that he does it "wrong," but the truth is, I have to take responsibility for having chosen him in the first place. No partner owes the other "effort" to see to the sexual pleasure of the other. It should always be a mutual pleasure and when it consistently is not, it's incompatibility - plain and simple. Many couples soldier on with this issue until death do us part. A very few open their relationship to allow for others. Most eventually part ways and it certainly doesn't have to be the end of the world, but in fact can be the start of a wonderful new one. The key is to not blame one's spouse for lacking sexually, but to take responsibility for finding one's own sexual and emotional fulfillment.
 
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FallenAngelina said:
The question about whether the OP's wife or anyone's spouse owes the other effort to please in bed: No. I was married to someone with whom I'm sexually incompatible (read: don't find him sexually attractive in the least) and I can find all manner of ways that he does it "wrong," but the truth is, I have to take responsibility for having chosen him in the first place. No partner owes the other "effort" to see to the sexual pleasure of the other. It should always be a mutual pleasure and when it consistently is not, it's incompatibility - plain and simple. Many couples soldier on with this issue until death do us part. A very few open their relationship to allow for others. Most eventually part ways and it certainly doesn't have to be the end of the world, but in fact can be the start of a wonderful new one. The key is to not blame one's spouse for lacking sexually, but to take responsibility for finding one's own sexual and emotional fulfillment.
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Yes, this. I tried to find words to explain my thoughts but you put it all much better than I ever could. Thus, the OP's words:
Cheaters deserve as much compassion as people not generous with their partners in the bedroom, and the latter are as guilty about the situation as the former.
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are simply false. No one is "guilty" of the sexual incompatibility when it happens - it just is. The cheater has willfully chosen to react to that incompatibility by - well, cheating. It is the cheater's choice. And every one of us is responsible for our own life choices. There is no legitimate way to push the responsibility to the partner who kept their side of agreements.
 
polygone, you may want to dedicate some introspective time to considering where you stand on personal responsibility for your choices and actions. It sounds to me like you are handing off a lot of that responsibility to other people.

You may also want to think hard on the issue of sexual entitlement. Just because you want something, doesn't mean anyone has to give it to you. Even if you are married. It seems to me to be unfair to stay in a relationship where you are not getting what you need, then complain about the fact you are not getting it from someone who was clear that they had no intention of fulfilling that need in the first place.
 
How can it be that people promess each other to be faithful to each other forever, and at the same time there is no promess of 'I will make everything I can to make you happy in bed'.
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You didn't write your own vows to include the things that matter to you? :confused:

Cheaters deserve as much compassion as people not generous with their partners in the bedroom, and the latter are as guilty about the situation as the former.
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I think all parties in an unstable marriage need help/support. Neither partner here seems to be participating in the health of the marriage or in disbanding it cleanly. I view marriage maintenance as a shared responsibility. In this situation neither seems to be holding up their end of the stick.

It is possible to be sexually incompatible, intellectually incompatible, emotional incompatible, all kinds of things. These things may be small and easily overlooked or solved and the partners can still be able to participate in marriage and be happy there. Or they may be too great. But rather than ignoring the elephant in the room the couple could be brave and address the issues even if the best solution is to part ways.

  • A person who is not interested in sex could choose to say "I see you want something I am not able to give. We have to renegotiate agreements or part ways so you can be free to seek what you want, and I can be free from requests I am not willing/able to do." Not submit themselves to sex in a way that sounds like "grin and bear it" or something. That's not sexy to the other partner and it sounds ugh to the partner "bearing it." That's not healthy sounding marriage.

  • A person could choose to say "I cannot keep these agreements any more. We have to renegotiate or we have to agree to part ways" rather than choosing to cheat. That's not healthy sounding marriage either.

Rather than get too hung up on who did what, it might be easier to agree that both have a hand in how the marriage is today. And if it isn't going well and neither seem really happy being there? Nobody has interest or energy for repair?

Maybe it's time to let it end as peacefully as possible. :(

It's not fun, but at least it's cleaner than just going through the motions or living with an elephant in the room.

I think marriage is something to participate in because both really want to be there. It's not something to be "endured."

You seem to be accepting that in the long run it may be best for you to part ways. I hope your partner is able to accept it also so both can get through a quick, clean parting. Then move on to the healing space.

GL!
Galagirl
 
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GalaGirl said:
A person who is not interested in sex could choose to say "I see you want something I am not able to give. We have to renegotiate agreements or part ways so you can be free to seek what you want, and I can be free from requests I am not willing/able to do." Not submit themselves to sex in a way that sounds like "grin and bear it" or something. That's not sexy to the other partner and it sounds ugh to the partner "bearing it." That's not healthy sounding marriage.
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If she was clear that sex is not important to her, at least it would make it easier for me to make the point that she can not possibly expect me to be sexually faithful.

But where I lost a lot of time is that she has always been very ambiguous about her stance. For years it was very difficult to even bring up the subject. If I raised it with clothes on she'd just dodge the discussion or wonder why I am bringing it up when there's no sex going on. And when I raised it during or after sex she would complain that it ruins the atmosphere. When at some point I started confronting her about it, asking if sex is important for her or not, insisting that for me it is very important, then she would claim it is, and yet she wouldn't try to loosen up or do the efforts it takes.

I know from the outside it looks unbelievable that people would waste so much time not fixing issues, but the thing is that there are other good sides to the marriage, that we've had all kind of external issues that have kept us very busy for many years (and helped uniting us).

The thing is that all these things are now over, so I can focus on fixing the issue once and for all...
 
But sex can be important to her without her "loosening up." Or it can be important to her because it's clear that it's important to you. Or it can be important to her because she sees it as a requirement of staying married even though if that weren't at issue, she might have different feelings. This is a subject that takes a careful approach, and the ability to hear your partner out even when you're feeling hurt. Marriage counseling is not a crazy thing, there.

I guess the other thing I would want you to keep in mind is that the decisions are not all yours. She also gets to decide whether she wants to stay married, whether she wants to have the kind of sex you want, whether she is willing to be in an open relationship.
 
polygone said:
....she has always been very ambiguous about her stance. ...... I can focus on fixing the issue once and for all...
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People in our lives only and always reflect exactly what's active inside of us, so her ambiguity is not about her, it's about why you are so laser focused on it and why you are blaming her for blocking you from the kind of sexual relationship that you desire. If you were totally aligned and at peace about the sexual relationship you want, you would not be having this problem, I guarantee it on a stack of Bibles and Korans.

You will never fix this issue in marriage counseling, in endless talks with her, in expressing your needs, in anything but taking an honest look within yourself. You have a deep conflict about what you want in a sexual relationship and your wife and the other sexual partners in your life are just showing you what that conflict is. Trying to fix them and even trying to fix your marriage won't work. This is what I brought up in my earlier posts in this and your other thread. You're focusing on what these women are doing that appears wrong to you, that impacts you in a negative way. You are not going to get anywhere trying to fix them or mentor them or "help" them. You must dig deep and look at the conflicts in you. Only when you've made more peace within yourself about what you want sexually and emotionally will you see it happening in your relationships.

This is where most affairs (and most divorces) go off the rails - each ends up blaming the other for wrong and hurtful behavior and things spiral dramatically downward to a painful split. Things don't have to go this way when each takes responsibility for himself and sees the situation as good information about himself, something to learn from. There is a lot for you to learn about yourself here, polygone. In your heart, thank your wife for helping you to discover what this is and go upward from there.
 
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Before I speak anything to the heart of this matter, I have a very important question to ask the OP, and if it is too personal he need not share, but I'll say why I am asking. It may be pertinent.

What form of birth control, if any, is being used by your wife?

Hormones? Especially extended release ones, such as the Depo shot?

I ask, because when I was taking Depo Provera (and the same progestin hormone birth control in different forms) the following happened to me:

- Lost interest in sex to the point where being touched by my husband made me unhappy and uncomfortable. Did not have interest in sex with others, either.
- Lost interest in warm friendships and human connections (I am a raging extrovert, this is abnormal for me.)
- Became highly motivated to be the best at things...was an amazing mother, kept a perfect house, was an overachiever in work and college. And yes. I was an absolute control freak over my perfect domain.
- Lost my interest in big, exciting spontaneous joy. Concerts, rollercoasters, things I used to love...I tried, but I just didn't care.

I thought that all of this was just becoming a responsible grown up. This is what happens when you mature and become an adult and a Mom with important shit to deal with.

I was WRONG. And when my ex got a vasectomy so that I could stop taking the drugs, as we realized they were having an effect on me (internet research at the time suggested it)... I kind of lost it. I had to know that I could still flex my sexiness and I was on fire for new connection. I did not physically cheat (I didn't want to be a cheater.) But I started talking to people online, and I found a young man of limited means who lived on an island far away, one with no danger of anything "real" happening...and I had a sort of emotional affair with him. I say "sort of" because I was not very emotionally attached to him. I felt like I was playing a game. Unfortunately he was a lot younger and he did feel real things. It was very unfair to my ex, and to him, and it ended quite badly.

Not only did that strike a rather serious blow to my ex being able to trust me...but I lost any sense of safety with him in how he reacted. He replaced all of my carefully crafted Myspace formatting with a large font red message that I was a cheating whore, and forced me to call every one of my family and friends and confess my sins to them while he sat and watched and listened.

After that, I never really wanted him again. I walled myself up in a fortress and got on with "what had to be done" to keep our marriage "working." For the kids.

So that is how NOT to handle some shit like that, and that is my cautionary tale. If she is on birth control, hormone meds like that can have VERY SERIOUS effects on her personality. If she used to be different, and she changed, ask yourself when and consider that as a reason if applicable. And if you do anything to get her off the stuff, be VERY CAREFUL how you both handle the aftermath as her system normalizes. She may be very surprised with what she suddenly wants and she might not know quite how to explore it.

If this information is not helpful to you, OP...maybe it will be to someone. I don't think that doctors do enough to warn people about the potential side effects with these drugs.
 
In addition to Spork's excellent post... there are other meds that can do the same, especially many of the medicines used for treating depression and other mental health issues. Not sure if this is of any use for OP but maybe for someone out there.
 
Hi polygone,

I am just curious, have you (and your wife) considered seeing a sex therapist? Perhaps it would help.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
Spork said:
Before I speak anything to the heart of this matter, I have a very important question to ask the OP, and if it is too personal he need not share, but I'll say why I am asking. It may be pertinent.

What form of birth control, if any, is being used by your wife?
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Thanks for the suggestion but this does not apply here.
 
kdt26417 said:
I am just curious, have you (and your wife) considered seeing a sex therapist? Perhaps it would help.
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We have seen a couples therapist, and we did learn some tricks, but overall the therapist was way too passive and did not help much.

Not sure if it was before or after that, but on a couple of occasions I suggested either seeing a therapist, or going to some kind of sex workshop, my wife was terrified. For her, the idea of discussing sex with a stranger was simply not conceivable.

It's all kind of blurry now, and when you state it the way you do I feel like 'how can I possibly not have done the most obvious steps to help our relationship', but I do remember doing a variety of efforts to improve things, some of which did help. Had nothing worked, I would probably have taken more drastic steps earlier. Add to that that time passes, you're busy with work, raising kids, dealing with parents/in-laws, and before you know, a decade has passed and you have not really addressed some key issues.
 
Nadya said:
In addition to Spork's excellent post... there are other meds that can do the same, especially many of the medicines used for treating depression and other mental health issues. Not sure if this is of any use for OP but maybe for someone out there.
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When I took Wellbutrin years ago, it had the effect of making it so I couldn't climax, which pretty much killed my sex drive. My doctor questioned whether I was sure it was Wellbutrin, because usually it ups people's sex drive. Since it was literally the only medicine I had been put on newly in 6 months, I knew it was. So some medicines may react differently with one person's system than with the majority of people on the medicine also, which is important to keep in mind.
 
Hannahfluke said:
it had the effect of making it so I couldn't climax, which pretty much killed my sex drive.
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If she had no sex drive I would have given up a very long time ago.

The thing is that she does have a sex drive. After many years together she finally admitted she sometimes masturbates, and most of the time when we have sex she comes (although it was more like 25% of the time 15y ago). The issue though is that this happens at the expense of me doing 90% of the work, and the tiniest deviation and she loses her focus and it's all gone. She never comes through intercourse, which I can accept, but that means that after 30 minutes of focussing 100% on her and making her come, all I am granted is to have a quickie.

Also - she is simply uncomfortable with her sexuality - she will never admit she's horny, as if it would make her vulnerable. Or the rare times she would is when she'd call me at work telling me to come over coz she feels horny. But telling me face to face that she wants to have sex simply never happens.
 
Where is your thinking at this point in time?

Are you ending the marriage? Trying to repair? Still trying to decide?

What is your desired outcome and how can people best help you?

Galagirl
 
Well, yes. Admitting she feels horny face to face would probably make her feel vulnerable. That's not a feeling she generated all by herself. Women receive strong societal messages opposing sexual expression from a very early age.

I find what you've said about your wife's sexuality incredibly understandable, although I doubt I could explain it. She's female, you're male, and you've been having different experiences with each other. I'm feeling uncomfortable discussing your wife's sexuality without her input.

What about *your* sexuality? Do you still feel desire for your wife? Is this a satisfying connection for you?

(I really do not want more detail. I feel like I already know too much. Just yes or no, please: do you desire sex with your wife? Do you enjoy that sex when you have it?)
 
BlueShoes said:
What about *your* sexuality? Do you still feel desire for your wife? Is this a satisfying connection for you?
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Yes - I feel a strong desire for her, stronger than for other girls who may be prettier / skinnier / younger.

But the connection is not satisfying because the actual sexual act is simply too frustrating. And there is no eroticism outside of the bedroom.
 
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