Opening marriage or breaking up?

PolyGone,

Thanks for commenting on my thread. I think you and I are in similar situations. We have a committed partner, but want more than we are getting the in the relationship.

My first comment is you have to repair your relationship with your wife if you ever want to move forward with an open relationship. Otherwise it will never work. It takes time and efforts by both parties. If she isn't willing to put in the work, you can't do it alone.

On the other hand, what would she get out of you having an open relationship. There has to be something there for her of value for her to put the energy and time necessary to fix your marriage or make it better.

I am fighting for our relationship right now. Its pretty dicey right now, we may fail, or succeed. The story remains unfinished.

I am so thankful I found this community, lots of good caring people here who want to help.

Good luck.
 
PolyGone,

Thanks for commenting on my thread. I think you and I are in similar situations. We have a committed partner, but want more than we are getting the in the relationship.

I am flattered by the comparison, but unlike me, you have taken the high road. I wish I had the rigor, guts, honesty to have chosen that path, but I didn't.

And to be honest, from the very little you described your situation in your thread, your relationship does not seem to have issues besides you feeling the need to go poly. It is an important issue in itself, but it may be worth fighting for.

In my case there are a couple of things that drive me nuts in our relationship, and the only slightly positive thing about sexual incompatibility, is that cheating, albeit dishonest, is a very good way to overcome the frustration it causes. Other types of incompatibility (for instance, disagreement on how to raise kids or how to spend money) are such that there simply is no way to overcome them on your own, you do need both partners to resolve them, which may simply be impossible in some cases.

That may be what led me to cheating, and by extension drawn poly, and I think I admire the values of poly (compersion above else, which applies to other fields in life), but in all honesty, I can not swear that I will remain poly forever if for instance I divorce and meet someone with whom I am totally happy on all fronts (and who perhaps demands monogamy).

Like you I am very grateful to the community for offering such thoughtful advice and opinions.
 
Follow up - 3 months later

So recently we've had a big argument which led to me telling my wife how I've seriously considered separation. The previous times, whenever breaking up was mentionned, it was always considered as a shallow threat by her, but this time I made it clear I've been researching the subject in details, thinking about logistics, speaking with some close friends so she really took it seriously.

Even though her initial reaction was anger, she quickly made herself as sweet as possible, trying to talk me out of the idea, saying that perhaps I have a depression or I am going through a midlife crisis. She may be right about all that, but it doesn't take away the fact that she admitted herself how she got away with a couple of massive decisions (w.r.t. financial stuff, religious education of the kids) during our marriage, that I was not happy about, and that to this day I feel have led me to a situation I don't like at all. Not to mention our mediocre sex life.

She's insisting on all the beautiful things we have in our marriage, and that I shouldn't focus on the few issues, but I just feel this is yet more manipulation. I realize I've been way too easy going during all these years, and I simply feel that if I give her the benefit of the doubt about her fixing these things that have made me so unhappy (knowing that sex-wise there is no way she can become as I expect her to), I am just going to waste another five years before deciding again that I've had enough.

We've had to deal with some old business together which have made it difficult to carry on with the dialogue, but my plan is that as soon as these things are behind us (which they nearly are), I am going to be more firm and let her know that I want to move out for real.
 
Hi polygone,

Thanks for that update. It sounds like you have decided to break up for sure, which is probably a good thing under the circumstances.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
I know it isn't fun, but I think you are doing the right thing in separating. It's more than the mediocre sex -- it's not getting along in other areas too.

I realize I've been way too easy going during all these years, and I simply feel that if I give her the benefit of the doubt about her fixing these things that have made me so unhappy (knowing that sex-wise there is no way she can become as I expect her to), I am just going to waste another five years before deciding again that I've had enough.

I say... great! She can fix those things in her behaviors. You both can have decisions be more like shared decisions and not just her getting away with whatever. You both can continue as peaceful co-parents without those things hanging over your heads any more... maybe it will help make you more effective coparents. Who knows?

But the marriage? If you are done, you are done. Follow through. Don't waste another 5 years trying to fly a kite you seem to know doesn't fly any more.

my plan is that as soon as these things are behind us (which they nearly are), I am going to be more firm and let her know that I want to move out for real.

Stick with your plan.

Galagirl
 
I say... great! She can fix those things in her behaviors.

This is spot on Galagirl - I have the tendency to want the cake and eat it. Let me explain.

I remember how I once left a job because we were all underpaid, and got a raise elsewhere - and how colleagues told me that after I'd left, they raised people's wages because of my departure. Of course, ideally, you'd like to both get the raise AND stay at the same job.

This is what's happening here: I need to understand that she may be able to change (including sexually, btw), but it's 100x more likely to happen once I've left her, and good for her and her future partner(s). I am clearly not intimidating enough to cause her to change while I am still with her, and I need to realize that.

Stick with your plan.

That is going to be the tricky part. I think the reason I am seeking support from this support (as well as from my secondary partner who's been giving me a lot of advice) is that by documenting my thoughts it will force me better to stick to a plan than just to complain about things and not do anything about it.

It may look pathetic, but this is my way of making myself a bit more accountable for my decisions
 
Re:
"It may look pathetic, but this is my way of making myself a bit more accountable for my decisions."

I have no problem with that.
 
I am clearly not intimidating enough to cause her to change while I am still with her, and I need to realize that.

It is not your job or anyone else's job to be "intimidating enough" to control her.

She needs to step up and control her own self. She can't act all willy nilly. She needs to know when to exercise SELF control.
Nobody will make her do that but her.

What you could do is become more assertive in your behavior and look out for your well being more. Be ok saying "No, thank you. I am not up for that."


It may look pathetic, but this is my way of making myself a bit more accountable for my decisions

I don't think it is pathetic to tell people your intentions so you can hold your own self accountable to your own Word.

I think you could stop calling yourself names like "pathetic." Why be your own bully? That just ADDS to the load. You have enough going on without making the load heavier.

Move forward with divorce and peaceful coparenting. If she has skills she's offering to work on, say "Great! That will help with the coparenting" but stay the course. She could work on them anyway even if the plan for the marriage is to disband.

GL!
Galagirl
 
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Second update - 1 months passed

my plan is that as soon as these things are behind us (which they nearly are), I am going to be more firm and let her know that I want to move out for real.

So over the last couple of weeks my wife has been making amazing efforts. Our sex life has massively improved, however it's still nothing out of the ordinary, and nowhere near the excitement I've had with most other girls I've seen during or before my marriage. This has been making the situation more tricky than expected, but I still stuck to my plan, told my wife this time that, in spite of all her efforts (on sex and on other fronts), I still want to separate. The only reason I got the guts to do that was that she dug out old pictures and letters and the nostalgia I felt made me feel that I need to get out of the trap.

Again she first reacted by anger, reiterating the fact that I am immature, I don't care about the kids, and only about my own interests. But I told her how I felt during our marriage her numerous priorities and needs were met, and mine weren't. And the fact that things have improved recently don't prove that she now has the ability to listen to my needs as she should have. It just shows that she will listen to them only when it threatens her cozy lifestyle. So again she softened after that.

About sex, I asked how come she's now been able to relax a bit, and let herself go, she said she needed an electrochoc and/or she was stalling, trying to let herself go for all these years because she was afraid that if it didn't improve things then she'd have to face the fact our sex life is a failure.

I've had very good support from my (unofficial) secondary, who has a much more pragmatic (perhaps cold) approach than me (she didn't treat you well, you feel castrated in your relationship, you need to get out no matter what effort she does now to try to fix things), but I still feel awful. I felt horrible when my wife asked if I could really live without her, and I said that's what I want for now, and she said she could not live without me.

I know some people have interpreted my first post as if my wife's a horrible person, but I insisted that she's really great. I told my wife how I still love her and feel she's a wonderful person, but that her inability to listen to me, her tendency to always assume she knows what's best for me, has made me feel my life slipped through my fingers during all these years. That she's set the kids and the cleanliness of the house or her religious practices to be her key objectives, thereby neglecting her relationship with me (which for me was the key point of a marriage). And that the very least I deserve, is a break, to be able to figure stuff out on my own.

Has anyone had a similar situation where they really felt the person could have changed, but they're too afraid to take the chance once more?

I feel sad of course, but so grateful for the community to have opened my eyes on the fact that even if breakups are painful, they can be so good in the long run. I would not have had these discussions w my wife had I not gotten all the support and advice from you guys.
 
I can't say that I've been in your situation, but I certainly think that it's reasonable to not be willing to give something yet 1 more try after a long line of tries. She might change, but also, the change might only be temporary while the threat of separation is imminent and she might slip back into old ways. You just really can never know.

Only you can decide if you've hit "the last straw" no matter what. If nothing else, the period of separation can at least allow you to focus on yourself and what you want and figure things out. Plus, even if she was willing to change, are you able to get over all of that history? Some people can forgive and move on, some people can't (I don't think one way is more right than the other, just a personal decision).

I'm curious though, if you separated and divorced... does your unofficial secondary expect you to then be mono with her? might need to have that conversation in advance if you want to be openly poly.
 
Glad to hear that while painful, you are following through and taking steps to separate. I hope you get that break to be able to figure stuff out on your own like you want.

I also hope you and your STBX will be able to create a more harmonious relationship as divorced co-parents since being spouses wasn't the right fit for you both.

Hang in there!
Galagirl
 
If nothing else, the period of separation can at least allow you to focus on yourself and what you want and figure things out. Plus, even if she was willing to change, are you able to get over all of that history? Some people can forgive and move on, some people can't (I don't think one way is more right than the other, just a personal decision).

I'm curious though, if you separated and divorced... does your unofficial secondary expect you to then be mono with her? might need to have that conversation in advance if you want to be openly poly.

Thanks for the insightful questions breathemusic.

About my secondary the issue is more the other way round. I feel I want her to be my primary and have the openness of our relationship just be an outlet rather than having both of us constantly chasing new experiences. I guess she's a bit confused herself about all that because she says she's a relational anarchist, but at the same time she's always available to meet whenever I am, and we have had long discussions about planning to move in together. Her rationale is that she's too incompatible with her current primary (a.k.a. roommate), but at the same time she could not stand the idea of living alone.

I guess we'll see how that works out if and when we move in together. It may be that she settles and stops chasing (mostly sexual) experiences, or on the contrary, that she just uses our common appartment as a hotel, spending whatever free time she has with other people. I am happy to experiment and see what comes out of it. She claims (very callously IMHO) that she will of course spend a lot of time with me, because she will never be able to find enough people to fully fit her schedule. Given how young and attractive she is, how she's happy to sleep with pretty much anyone who wants, and given that we live in a major city in the day and age of Tinder, I don't see how she can be so sure about that, but we'll see. The main reason she has not yet managed to 'fully fit her schedule' is that her current partner is making her life a hell everytime she goes out, mostly because he does not support her being poly.

OK - I guess I've said enough showing that I am going from one dysfunctional relationship to another one, but anyway - as much as she has given me the motivation and the strength to break up my marriage, and as much as I wish our relationship can go to the next level if I separate, I think whatever can happen with her should not be a driver for my decision to separate.
 
Um. No.

Your decision to separate should be, because likely there is not a fix for the serious incompatibilities in your marriage. Not only are you unhappy, I am betting your wife is, too. The difference is, she thinks it's totally worth the sacrifice, and you don't.

What I get from your posts is that the only reason she is trying to hold this together is that she believes VERY STRONGLY in the Family (kids, household) as the Mission. Like her love life, her sex life, her personal happiness is not the priority, making a happy happy home is the priority. She is likely seeing that when the two of you part ways and the sum total of possible income now needs must support two households, it's going to be maybe difficult. But even if not, the dream of the kids growing up ignorant of their parents' troubles is gonna get shattered. Likely she isn't remotely in love with you in a "happy romantic couples sexytime" way but she likely loves you in a "father of my kids" family sort of way.

She could probably paste a smile on her face and make with the domestic harmony until the kids were grown, and then she would have left. She probably felt like she was holding the whole show together through sheer force of will. She's not trying to keep you around because SHE wants YOU but because she doesn't want the castle walls to start crumbling.

You on the other hand feel (not uncommon with the male half of a couple from what I've seen) that if you're not getting your needs met, then screw it. No purpose in you putting your resources into this ship.

Is your position selfish? Maybe.

Alright though, where do you go from here...?

Your secondary is not primary material. Do not try and force her into that role. It will end badly. Very, very badly. She wants her freedom, and if you take it from her then she's only going to end up resenting you.

Can you be without a primary? Can you be a single male? Can you be ok with that for a time?

Have you talked to the wife about poly, tried to open ethically? I suspect with her moral beliefs she might be very upset about it, but here's the deal, the way I see this...

You can either be roommates with you getting your relationship needs elsewhere, or else you can separate. If the wife is absolutely determined to keep the Castle standing, then maybe she could deal with you having a side relationship if the kids and community did not know.

Could you do that until kids are grown?

And as for wife making decisions about stuff like religious education of the kids, is that going to change if you separate? Is she going to get custody? What do you expect to happen there? If it's not going to change, with or without separation, maybe you should both go open but live together as a team to get the family mission of raising kids done.

I know it's a weird suggestion, but I just want to make sure you are seeing every POSSIBLE option. This is an option.

But have no delusions about your secondary. A woman who says and does what she says and does...she isn't going to be happy being your next wifey type, living together and playing house and tending your needs.
 
Have you talked to the wife about poly, tried to open ethically? I suspect with her moral beliefs she might be very upset about it, but here's the deal, the way I see this...

You can either be roommates with you getting your relationship needs elsewhere, or else you can separate. If the wife is absolutely determined to keep the Castle standing, then maybe she could deal with you having a side relationship if the kids and community did not know.

I think the religious hurdles are too high. But I am considering it.

Um. No.

Your secondary is not primary material. Do not try and force her into that role. It will end badly. Very, very badly. She wants her freedom, and if you take it from her then she's only going to end up resenting you.

But have no delusions about your secondary. A woman who says and does what she says and does...she isn't going to be happy being your next wifey type, living together and playing house and tending your needs.


About my secondary yeah I am mixed. At face value, when I hear what she says and does, it seems like she's totally out of control and super bad primary material.

But over the summer we managed to get away together for a full 2-3 days a few times, and she really felt 100% mine. She wanted to stay until the last moment, she would be nearly weeping when we parted. And when we meet over the week, she's never in a rush for any of our meetings to end, she'll accompany me to my train track, sometimes even do part of the commute with me even if she then needs to go in reverse to go back home. But when I have to leave (because I can not come home to late), she may go party afterwards and end up in someone else's bed. I think she's desperately in need of being with someone, whoever that is, as long as it's not her main partner, who is a total loser, pothead, relying on her financially. She's very cerebral, and we have strong common interests in that field and joint artistic activities. So I just hope that if we live together, she will be seeking these adventures a bit less.

I am not going to try and force anything, and I definitely do not want to break up with her pre-emptively. She is THE person on earth with whom I have had the largest and most intense amount of fun. Maybe I didn't know how to have fun before meeting her, but I am definitely not going let go of her too soon. I know fun isn't the only thing in life (+ as mentionned we have joint hobbies that do not require undressing and/or drinking booze) but I've worked hard for many years providing for my family in the most conventional settings, so I can really use some fun right now.
 
She is THE person on earth with whom I have had the largest and most intense amount of fun. Maybe I didn't know how to have fun before meeting her, but I am definitely not going let go of her too soon. I know fun isn't the only thing in life (+ as mentionned we have joint hobbies that do not require undressing and/or drinking booze) but I've worked hard for many years providing for my family in the most conventional settings, so I can really use some fun right now.

Well, I think there is a lot to be said for fun. There is much more wisdom and guidance in fun & joy than most of us allow ourselves to recognize.
 
Well, I think there is a lot to be said for fun. There is much more wisdom and guidance in fun & joy than most of us allow ourselves to recognize.

I agree. Fun is awesome!

I just caution to not try and shoehorn something that is fun now, into a structure you expect relationships to fit or you think you need, polygone. Are you familiar with the term, "relationship escalator?" It's this thinking that in order for a relationship to be legit, you have to be stepping up, up, up this set of milestones, with a goal of building a shared life in a shared home, maybe with kids or marriage or whatever. Well, it's not a requirement for a happy relationship. Especially if you're not needing to reproduce with someone. If that's not part of your goals, then really rethink this "I must have a Primary and she must live with me" thing you seem to be contemplating.

And make DAMN sure you communicate your intentions clearly and honestly with her as you go. I had a boyfriend for a while, where we talked about a bajillion times about how easy-peasy voluntary everything was, how I didn't feel hierarchical about my relationships or want to see them like that, how I was solo poly, etc etc etc... And then eventually I find out that he assumed I was his primary all along. I didn't consent to be anyone's primary! And despite being told that there weren't...there were a LOT of expectations going on there.

Consent is not only about sex. It should be about every facet of a relationship. You don't just proceed and assume your partner is on the same page or will get onboard in time. And informed consent means knowing thoroughly what it is you're getting into, and being given a chance to say, "No...this isn't really what I want."

So by all means have fun. But don't let fun drag you into a situation that will turn very NOT-fun. Be careful.

(EDIT: I have to follow my own advice, too. Though I think my guy is probably a very good candidate in many ways and we could be happy living together, I'm trying to remember not to rush things. I often feel like "Yay this is awesome, let's escalate!!" and then my gut is like "hey whoa, hang on a minute. Just relax. You're having fun, why mess with it?")
 
Well, I think there is a lot to be said for fun. There is much more wisdom and guidance in fun & joy than most of us allow ourselves to recognize.

Well said. Fun in itself may be shallow, but I pride myself to have studied hard, worked hard and got myself to a decent position. So I feel that as an addition to all that, some fun and excess can really be a fulfilling and deeper than people think.
 
I agree. Fun is awesome!

I just caution to not try and shoehorn something that is fun now, into a structure you expect relationships to fit or you think you need, polygone. Are you familiar with the term, "relationship escalator?" It's this thinking that in order for a relationship to be legit, you have to be stepping up, up, up this set of milestones, with a goal of building a shared life in a shared home, maybe with kids or marriage or whatever. Well, it's not a requirement for a happy relationship. Especially if you're not needing to reproduce with someone. If that's not part of your goals, then really rethink this "I must have a Primary and she must live with me" thing you seem to be contemplating.

On both sides we've had kids and not looking for more of them. As for the escalator, the aim is really to escalate on our common interests (art / science / career), and on the relationship avoid creating entanglements for purely 'sentimental' reasons. As much as I am not used to it, I appreciate my gf's approach to relationships as hanging out with people because you want to and feel like it rather than having a commitment which at some point you wonder why you got into it.

Of course, living together is de facto creating a bond / commitment, but she sees us as great friends who enjoy many things together, including in the bedroom, and she likes the idea of living with me more than with anyone else.

As it is, I don't like the idea of living on my own, I have this need to have someone at home, and I have the need to sleep in a bed with a woman I am attracted to. That's why being totally single is not something I've considered so far, even if I live in a big city where middle aged single guys are spoilt because of the male/female imbalance.

However, I should definitely give a go at what you're suggested, once I have separated, I will see how things go instead of hopping straight into co-living with my gf. She's miserable with her current partner, but she's got this ability to cope which makes her not in a such a rush to move on, so she's fine being patient. And financially this is not at all an issue for me to live on my own, so that removes the bias there would be otherwise. Thx for the advice :)
 
Again, um, no. Actually: warning klaxons.

You "have a need" to sleep with someone sexy on the regular. She wants her participation in any relationship to be totally optional, a product of her untrammeled free choice in the moment. You are not long-term comparible. And the long-term is like a month. She's not a body pillow. She says so over and over. You want a sexy body pillow, not this complicated, thrill-seeking woman.

Live alone, man. Get your own space. Invite your SO as freely as you like, and keep in mind that she reacts badly to commitments. Make your own space and build your new life with care and deliberation.

Also, where are your kids in this? What are your custody agreements? Moving a girlfriend into a new space you also share sometimes with your children should also be approached with concern for the kids.

I know living alone is not fun for everyone - I really, massively, know. But you've already experienced living with the wrong partner. Do the living alone. Let yourself hate it, but compare it extensively to what you had, and think carefully about what you actually want.
 
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