Overnights and Uhauling

[MeeraReed]

As my time in these forums (not just polyamory.com) and podcasts grows, I see a standard theme in polyamory of rushing into overnights (even weekends)

I have not noticed this as a theme in polyamory (and I've been reading this forum for about 14 years now), so I don't quite get what you're saying.

But overnights with a partner seems like something that's pretty normal to do / to want / to expect in any type of dating.

I personally have serious sleeping problems so I don't like to sleep overnight in a bed with anyone--I simply won't get enough sleep. But this is unusual and I recognize it is something I need to explain to anyone new that I date, because it is very atypical dating behavior.

I am not sure what you mean by rushing into overnights, because sleeping overnight with a partner, even a very new partner, is pretty normal for most people (except me because of my sleep disorder, LOL).

Full weekends, hmm. I wouldn't want to spend my entire weekend with someone I just met, whether I am poly or mono. But I am not aware of a trend in which poly people do this too soon?

How would it compare to a mono person suddenly spending full weekends with a brand new partner? Mono people can do this if they want because it doesn't affect anyone else (except themselves). As a solo-oriented person who values independence and solitude, I always found it weird how in mainstream dating, it was very normal for my mono friends to meet someone new and then suddenly spend all their time with them. Like, they would have a serious partner in two weeks from their first date. Seemed weird and unhealthy to me.

But that was more common among my friends in their 20s. Now in their 40s, they don't do this. Even if mono, they now have independent lives, homes, demanding jobs, children, other commitments and would move slower in a new relationship.

I am genuinely not aware of a trend of specifically poly people spending too much time with partners too quickly?

and Uhauling (moving in together during NRE).

I am not aware of any theme in poly in which moving in together during NRE is approved of in poly forums. Quite the opposite.

I get that NRE is amazing (and horrible at the same time, with anxiety) and it's like a drug that you just want more of, but that's exactly what it is! The more you get dosed, the more you want, and the less you see the red flags and colossal mistakes you are making.

I know there are people that recommend not making any big decisions during NRE,

Yes, that is the main point of the concept of NRE in polyamory discussions.

but there are so many very experienced poly folks that support rushing in. (No overnights is a deal breaker.)

I am confused on your logic that overnights are the same as "rushing in" during NRE.

It floors me when I see people spending entire weekends with a new partner, especially when one (or both) is already nesting.

But did the nesting partners, back when they first met, spend their entire weekends together? If they did, and that's how they behave when they fall in love, then it makes sense that they would want the freedom to do the same with their new love. But obviously, they would to balance their time with their established partner--that is what being poly means.

Or, did the two nesting partners move slowly when they first met each other? But now one partner is rushing things with a new partner? Like they are trying to escape their nesting life? Is that what you mean?

I had four overnights in the first year of my partnership.

That seems unusual for how dating usually works. What was the reason for that?

The more you feed NRE, the stronger it gets, and the less faculties you have for good decision-making and partner selection. The stronger your chances of getting into an unhealthy dynamic that's hard to get out of. Shouldn't we be encouraging people to slow down during NRE?

I feel like we do advise this.

Moving too fast not only makes it impossible to spot and ignore things you normally wouldn't, it also supports bad behavior and ignoring of established partners. I hear about partners losing out on sex and connection and quality time while partner is off with the new and shiny. We accept this as what it is and say it will get better in months or a year when it wears off.

This is a good point--we do advise people struggling with a partner in NRE to just wait it out. Maybe we shouldn't? But we are also pretty clear about discussing "poly hell" situations where the partner in NRE is being horrible.

How is this okay? It should not be a standard of how it is, or an excuse. Being able to negotiate NRE without getting all lovesick and neglecting your life, responsibilities, or partners should be one of the skills that poly people have mastered, just like autonomy.

It's clear the poly community will talk badly about couples privilege or hierarchy, but not about leaving other partners in the dust during NRE. Why does NRE get a pass on treating your partners like crap or prioritizing the new and shiny over long established relationships, and if not, it's called out as hierarchy or couples privilege?

As far as I'm concerned, there should be a hierarchy and there should be couples privilege for at least the first 6 months. You JUST MET THIS PERSON. They shouldn't be entitled to equal, or worse, more time, sex, attention, or say than an established partner.

This is all true, but I feel like that is the dominant advice given in poly forums. So I don't really understand your complaint.

What are your thoughts on this? If you think I'm way off base, why?

Hmm. I think you're off base on equating overnights with rushing to move in.

I have never been in a poly relationship that restricted overnights. It seems fairly normal to me that two people who are on a date may end up spending the night together and it should not be a big deal. Certainly, having a nesting partner would complicate having overnights with other people, so poly people with nesting partners have to figure out how that will work. (And more so if they have children; but single parents also have to navigate dating and overnights with children; balancing dating and other responsibilities is just part of dating).

I feel that polyamory doesn't work when people are asked to behave in ways that are not normal for how dating works in general.

Sometimes, a poly couple will have agreements with each other that create situations where dating other partners will be difficult because it will be going against the way dating normally works. No overnights, for example--what if you fall asleep after sex, as people who are dating often do?

Moving in together quickly does not seem normal to me for any dating, poly or mono! But "rushing" into overnights seems normal and I don't see why that would be a big deal.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

But did the nesting partners, back when they first met, spend their entire weekends together? If they did, and that's how they behave when they fall in love, then it makes sense that they would want the freedom to do the same with their new love

I think this question is pretty much key to the thread, and touches on what I believe I have seen in some poly forums (less so here). It's more specific to people who are opening a monogamous relationship.

Maybe someone opening their relationship doesn't have the "ethical freedom" to build their new poly relationships in the same way they did their monogamous relationship. Perhaps the fact that they were single when they met their established partner meant that they could decide to do things like weekends early on, as the only risk was to themselves. They didn't have commitments and agreements with anyone else. Now that they've made a whole lot of life choices that encouraged a monogamous relationship, it would be an unreasonable expectation to be able to intimately bond with someone else as if you were unburdened from those choices.

So basically, maybe you just have to understand that you'll never have the freedom to do things like you would when you were single, and attempts to behave like you are single are verging on exploitative.

I think I feel like this partly through resentment. I resent that I've done a lot to challenge heteronormativity, partly due to the fact that I am queer. I've also made tough relationship choices to ensure I had the availability for the type of intimacy I want. And that's why I can do weekends whenever I want. I suppose I am resentful of people who want all the benefits of a traditional-seeming dyad while reaping the advantages of non-monogamy, often at the expense of others.

 

[MeeraReed]

Yeah, I think it is totally different if a long-established monogamous couple is opening their relationship for the first time, versus experienced poly people, especially if one partner is mono and struggling. In those cases, the poly partner should respect their mono partner's limits, and should seek out other partners who are willing to accept those limits.

 

[Bobbi]

I always found it weird how in mainstream dating, it was very normal for my mono friends to meet someone new and then suddenly spend all their time with them. Like, they would have a serious partner in two weeks from their first date. Seemed weird and unhealthy to me.

Yes, it happens in poly too. And I agree, it's weird and unhealthy.

I am confused on your logic that overnights are the same as "rushing in" during NRE.

I'm just thinking in terms of NRE being like a drug. The more time you spend (the more you take) the more you want, and the weaker your ability to see the person for who they are. The more likely you are to make poor decisions. Hence rushing into things that are a bad idea when getting to know a stranger, like moving in together. People wouldn't recommend getting drunk before making decisions, so it should be discouraged to make any during NRE.

If people slow down the getting to know a person phase, they are more likely to see the red flags and end the relationship before it becomes an emotional dumpster fire.

That seems unusual for how dating usually works. What was the reason for that?

This was not my request. I definitely wanted more. I found out later that he woke in pain whenever he slept with me. He had a full size bed. He also didn't want overnights on work nights, so I only stayed when there was a holiday. That rule still sticks, but we changed our days from Tues/Thurs/Sun to swapping Thurs and Fri so I'd get an overnight once per week. When he's out for summer we have overnights all three nights. He also got a queen bed, so things are way happier there too.

Side note: I wasn't saying people should do things the way I did. That was way too little for me. I think overnights are important. As a monogamous person, I'd see nothing wrong with weekends, but as a poly person, I think we still expect things to act as they were when we were mono. And it's not realistic to have those expectations. Maybe it's even harmful to other relationships to mindlessly put all of your energy and time into a new person using the excuse of NRE.

This is a good point-- we do advise people struggling with a partner in NRE to just wait it out.

Yes. That's my point.

But we are also pretty clear about discussing "poly hell" situations where the partner in NRE is being horrible.

Absolutely. Poly hell is a constant reference here.

I think you're off base on equating overnights with rushing to move in.

I wasn't trying to equate them, more like discussing them, as both being a possible problem that people do, and think is the way things are done, and then wonder where it all fell apart.

I guess just because that's the way things are done is the standard answer. I guess I'm the (only?) one that sees it as a big part of the problem.

 

[Albert Ross]

Everyone's mileage will vary, I suppose; I don't equate sleeping over, versus putting one's pants back on and taking an Uber home, as anywhere near the sort of escalation that you seem to be describing...?

 

[Norcal110]

As my time in these forums (not just polyamory.com) and podcasts grows, I see a standard theme in polyamory of rushing into overnights (even weekends) and Uhauling (moving in together during NRE).

I get that NRE is amazing (and horrible at the same time, with anxiety) and it's like a drug that you just want more of, but that's exactly what it is! The more you get dosed, the more you want, and the less you see the red flags and colossal mistakes you are making.

I know there are people that recommend not making any big decisions during NRE, but there are so many very experienced poly folks that support rushing in. (No overnights is a deal breaker.)

It floors me when I see people spending entire weekends with a new partner, especially when one (or both) is already nesting. Even more, people surprised if the person realized their mistakes and pulling back. Why are overnights so important? I had four overnights in the first year of my partnership. Yes I wanted more, but never did I expect full weekends starting in week 2! (He lived alone and had no other partners.) I would have liked one overnight per week after 6 months, but that's me.

It seems like people miss the whole dating part of getting to know each other. Once sex is involved, it moves quickly, to spending as much time as possible, maybe moving in or planning your futures together, but everything else gets lost in the chemical rush.

The more you feed NRE, the stronger it gets, and the less faculties you have for good decision-making and partner selection. The stronger your chances of getting into an unhealthy dynamic that's hard to get out of. Shouldn't we be encouraging people to slow down during NRE?

Moving too fast not only makes it impossible to spot and ignore things you normally wouldn't, it also supports bad behavior and ignoring of established partners. I hear about partners losing out on sex and connection and quality time while partner is off with the new and shiny. We accept this as what it is and say it will get better in months or a year when it wears off.

How is this okay? It should not be a standard of how it is, or an excuse. Being able to negotiate NRE without getting all lovesick and neglecting your life, responsibilities, or partners should be one of the skills that poly people have mastered, just like autonomy.

It's clear the poly community will talk badly about couples privilege or hierarchy, but not about leaving other partners in the dust during NRE. Why does NRE get a pass on treating your partners like crap or prioritizing the new and shiny over long established relationships, and if not, it's called out as hierarchy or couples privilege?

As far as I'm concerned, there should be a hierarchy and there should be couples privilege for at least the first 6 months. You JUST MET THIS PERSON. They shouldn't be entitled to equal, or worse, more time, sex, attention, or say than an established partner.

I get and fully support autonomy. But if that autonomy results in choices that result in treating another partner badly, you should end it because you don't really care about that partners feelings much anyway.

What are your thoughts on this? If you think I'm way off base, why?

Your post, as well as the others below, have been very helpful. I didn't know what NRE was until I signed up here and read all these posts. My wife is currently in her NRE phase with a new guy. In the past, it has just been sex with other men. But with this guy, I see a clear difference. She has phone calls with this guy. She tells me they are going to talk. The difference is watching her body language and how excited she is after the call, like a giddy schoolgirl.

I am nervous and excited by this guy in her life. She and I started talking about poIyamory, so I got on here because I wanted to know more about it. So far, these posts have been informative. Thanks, all.

 

[Kynde]

There is validity in what you are saying! Let me add some of my own points

-- I have learned to hold off on the sex part for a long time. I have learned this the hard way (as most life lessons are learned). I am fine with some kissing, some petting, snuggling. But the sex part won't happen for a while. It keeps the mind a bit clearer. It also makes you know that the person is interested in you for more than just sex.

-- Overnights are awesome!! I currently have a partner who is newer. We have started as cuddle partners. We cuddle overnight. We both missed being held all night, the pillow talk, morning coffee. We are not sexual. We have had some kissing and heavy petting, but no sex. And that is still off the table for the time being. But it is something we may both enjoy later.

 

[Magdlyn]

There is validity in what you are saying! Let me add some of my own points

-- I have learned to hold off on the sex part for a long time. I have learned this the hard way (as most life lessons are learned). I am fine with some kissing, some petting, snuggling. But the sex part won't happen for a while. It keeps the mind a bit clearer. It also makes you know that the person is interested in you for more than just sex.

-- Overnights are awesome!! I currently have a partner who is newer. We have started as cuddle partners. We cuddle overnight. We both missed being held all night, the pillow talk, morning coffee. We are not sexual. We have had some kissing and heavy petting, but no sex. And that is still off the table for the time being. But it is something we may both enjoy later.

I don't make those kinds of distinctions about sex. If I wanted cuddles from someone, I'd just cuddle. However, if I felt romantic about them, I might do some sexual things. "Heavy petting," to me, means getting at least partially naked, kissing on places other than the mouth, such as on the breasts, putting my hands down their pants, having orgasms, or at least becoming so aroused, you wouldn't mind a climax.

I know some people make a big distinction about actual PiV intercourse being "sex," and the other stuff being "just" heavy petting, maybe because (what I call) "outercourse" is less risky as far as STDs and pregnancy? But I don't tell myself that I am not having sex just because a penis isn't going in my vagina.

Maybe it's because I am bi/pansexual. If I am with another person with a vagina, and we were "just" getting naked, doing breast play, fingering each other, using a vibrator on each other, going down on each other, I would call that having sex or even "fucking." I wouldn't make a distinction between that and one of us strapping on a dildo to mimic hetero sex. lol

Likewise, if I am with a man (or penis-having person, such as a trans woman or non-binary person) who doesn't want to penetrate me with their penis, if we did a lot of other sexual stuff, I would still definitely say, "We had sex."

So, your so-called cuddle partner and you ARE "having sex," in my opinion. But that's just my opinion. I know others will feel and think differently. Even our past president Bill Clinton claimed "I did not have sex with that woman," when his intern Lewinsky was giving him head on a regular basis lol.

 

[Bobbi]

I don't make those kinds of distinctions about sex. If I wanted cuddles from someone, I'd just cuddle. However, if I felt romantic about them, I might do some sexual things. "Heavy petting," to me, means getting at least partially naked, kissing on places other than the mouth, such as on the breasts, putting my hands down their pants, having orgasms, or at least becoming so aroused, you wouldn't mind a climax.

I know some people make a big distinction about actual PiV intercourse being "sex," and the other stuff being "just" heavy petting, maybe because (what I call) "outercourse" is less risky as far as STDs and pregnancy? But I don't tell myself that I am not having sex just because a penis isn't going in my vagina.

Maybe it's because I am bi/pansexual. If I am with another person with a vagina, and we were "just" getting naked, doing breast play, fingering each other, using a vibrator on each other, going down on each other, I would call that having sex or even "fucking." I wouldn't make a distinction between that and one of us strapping on a dildo to mimic hetero sex. lol

Likewise, if I am with a man (or penis-having person, such as a trans woman or non-binary person) who doesn't want to penetrate me with their penis, if we did a lot of other sexual stuff, I would still definitely say, "We had sex."

So, your so-called cuddle partner and you ARE "having sex," in my opinion. But that's just my opinion. I know others will feel and think differently. Even our past president Bill Clinton claimed "I did not have sex with that woman," when his intern Lewinsky was giving him head on a regular basis lol.

I totally relate to this. People are shocked when I say sex never lasts less than 2 hours....even the rare "quickie" is an hour for me. PIV, if it happens, takes up maybe 15-20 minutes (total) intermittently throughout the time. For me, foreplay starts when I wake up with flirting texts when we are apart to flirting, touching, and kissing throughout the day. Anything that happens with skin touching under clothes or clothing off is a part of sex.

 

[Bobbi]

Then, as soon as the deed is done, you have to excuse yourself and go home to your partner. That couldn’t be more unnatural.

I'm not sure what's unnatural about it. In my entire life I've never stayed the night the first time I had sex with anyone. The interesting part, when I think about it from your perspective, is that neither I or the person I was with considered another option. I would have if they'd asked me to, but nobody asked, and I got the impression that they expected me to leave, as well... not in a "get out" way, but the date was over.

I'm not a person who imposes myself on others. If they want me to stay, they should ask. I've never gotten a hotel on a date, so maybe that would be different because it's not their place. IDK.

I'm also coming from a place where casual sex doesn't suit me. I get emotionally involved with people I don't even like... so I need to date someone to know enough to know I like them as a person. For me, taking it slow has helped me avoid the trainwreck people and have pretty awesome partners.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

The interesting part, when I think about it from your perspective, is that neither I or the person I was with considered another option. I would have if they'd asked me to, but nobody asked, and I got the impression that they expected me to leave, as well... not in a "get out" way, but the date was over.

Men often do that to show a woman that they will be controlling the pace of the relationship and they won't be propelled into commitment. It's like not texting straight after a date so you don't seem too keen or set up the expectation for daily contact.

In my experience, when it comes to adult dating, if a date ends in sex and it's gone on through the evening/night, then it is expected that it will result in a sleepover. If it has been spontaneous and they haven't brought the things they'd need for the next morning, then maybe they'd leave at night, but that would be explained rather than expected.

It's really not usual to not stay the night if it has gone to sex level, unless you always intend to have a very casual relationship, and even then...

It would be a red flag in a new dating partner IF I were specifically seeking serious partners. That person is not showing themselves as available to me. They're putting up boundaries to keep me at a distance and not get ahead of myself. That's not a good sign in a new partner.

 

[Kynde]

I don't make those kinds of distinctions about sex. If I wanted cuddles from someone, I'd just cuddle. However, if I felt romantic about them, I might do some sexual things. "Heavy petting," to me, means getting at least partially naked, kissing on places other than the mouth, such as on the breasts, putting my hands down their pants, having orgasms, or at least becoming so aroused, you wouldn't mind a climax.

I know some people make a big distinction about actual PiV intercourse being "sex," and the other stuff being "just" heavy petting, maybe because (what I call) "outercourse" is less risky as far as STDs and pregnancy? But I don't tell myself that I am not having sex just because a penis isn't going in my vagina.

Maybe it's because I am bi/pansexual. If I am with another person with a vagina, and we were "just" getting naked, doing breast play, fingering each other, using a vibrator on each other, going down on each other, I would call that having sex or even "fucking." I wouldn't make a distinction between that and one of us strapping on a dildo to mimic hetero sex. lol

Likewise, if I am with a man (or penis-having person, such as a trans woman or non-binary person) who doesn't want to penetrate me with their penis, if we did a lot of other sexual stuff, I would still definitely say, "We had sex."

So, your so-called cuddle partner and you ARE "having sex," in my opinion. But that's just my opinion. I know others will feel and think differently. Even our past president Bill Clinton claimed "I did not have sex with that woman," when his intern Lewinsky was giving him head on a regular basis lol.

The great thing about being individuals is we get to make up our own rules and definitions. I appreciate the clarity and your perspective. I have mine. When I communicate with a partner (especially being on the autism spectrum), I will ask them-- You said "____." When you say "____," what do you mean by that?" For example, I had a partner who said he was demisexual. I consider myself demi too. But when I asked him what he meant by that, his version was different than mine. But now we each know where we stand on that, so communication was still effective.

 

[Magdlyn]

The great thing about being individuals is we get to make up our own rules and definitions. I appreciate the clarity and your perspective. I have mine.

Ummm, not quite. Some terms should be clear enough, with culturally agreed-upon definitions. That's why we have dictionaries. Words and their spellings and meanings can evolve, but when we're all speaking English (for example), we don't need to fully "make up definitions." This can lead to gaslighting, in my experience.

It is imperative to clarify terms, if there are grey areas, especially with a partner, especially in BDSM, where we have to put even more emphasis on consent, safe words, and the like.

I guess I find your recent posts about the cuddle partner quite alarming. He advertises as a cuddle partner, but soon turned out to be quite interested in being sexual with you. (Maybe he was also advertising himself as a "cuddle partner" for a while before you answered his ad, and is even now, for others to respond to...) I'd call this false advertising. From how you have described this evolution, it seems to me his actual agenda was and is, "I cuddle, but I make the cuddling so good I melt her defenses, spend the entire night 'cuddling' her naked, maybe with a hard-on pressing on her, until she gets aroused and we ... Oh, we don't have sex! We 'just' do heavy petting." Whether he gets to penetrate and cum in a vagina or not isn't really a big deal.

I know this seems harsh, but I don't mean to be judgmental or suspicious. Then again, I feel kind of protective of you after that horrendous experience you had with the Dom. I still feel sad about the little burro.

I am a jaded woman. I've done a lot of dating. Men will say ANYTHING to get in your pants. (Men have openly admitted this, joyously, proudly, between themselves in my hearing.) I honestly thought, from videos on cuddlers I've seen, that sex (OF ANY KIND) was clearly off the table. I mean, you could really traumatize someone, or get in legal trouble, if you say one thing, but then sneak in a different agenda, with vulnerable people.

His sexual agenda seems to be perfectly fine with you. It's consensual. I am just rather shocked that a "cuddle partners" relationship would escalate so quickly to sexual partners/potential bf-gf dynamic. I mean, it only took, what, two "dates"?

Generally, for contemporary Western (non-fundamentalist Christian or Mormon) adults, fondling, petting, outercourse leads to full-on intercourse pretty quickly, definitions of "sex" be damned. Some people have a three-date rule. Some have a five-date rule.

So, in reference to this:

When I communicate with a partner (especially being on the autism spectrum) I will ask them -- You said "____". When you say "____," what do you mean by that?"

Did you not ask the Cuddler (Traveler), or did he not ask you, "When you say 'cuddle,' do you mean we will remain fully clothed in comfy clothes, no touching of erogenous zones, no overnights, no pressing of genitals against each other, no kissing, no fondling/outercourse/heavy petting/PiV? Because when I say 'cuddle,' it means that if I end up finding you attractive, I am perfectly okay with quite eagerly and quickly moving to sexual acts, [but not intercourse][including intercourse]. In other words, cuddling is just part of what I really honestly want. I am looking for full-on adult romance, with not just cuddling and intimate talking, but overnights, and intercourse, and frequent actual dates."