Partner encouraging me to date outside our marriage

[Magdlyn]

sorry what does cowgirl mean in this context?

As I said... a "cowgirl" is a person who seems fine with dating a married person, but her real motivation is to put a wedge between the married person and their spouse, and cause them to split so she can have her dating partner to herself.

Of course, this takes the consent of the married person.

Like, if your marriage were really on the rocks, you might open your marriage in hopes it would help. You'd start to date someone who said they were poly. But what you really want is a soft landing place, because you're secretly ready to end your marriage anyway. So you'd put more energy into the new relationship, causing more and more rifts between you and your spouse, and end up breaking up the marriage to be with the new person. Obviously, this isn't polyamory. Polyamory means loving more than one; it doesn't mean dating others in hopes to find a new person to go to, so the divorce with the established spouse seems easier.

 

[Stevek]

But WTH? If Amy never asked you out and and you never mentioned it to Emma, was Emma just going to keep doing "sex chores" with you and never mention it or her desire to go to work full time?

She told me yesterday that she got the offer to work fulltime this Monday. We did discuss her returning full time to work last year, and I said I was okay with it. I think the Amy stuff is just a coincidence. She would've told me anyway, as I have no issues with it.

How is communication in this marriage? Emma says the marriage is great for her... but is it great for you?

I think so? I do not have any complaints most of the time. I don't even remember the last time we fought. We try to keep things interesting, and I actually mean we. She also tries to cater to my interests. She takes an active interest in my hobbies.

Our previous therapist also suggested that we should spend some time by ourselves. Once every two weeks, she spends some time with her university friends and I take care of the kids. Of course she reciprocates when I hangout with my brothers/friends. We split chores and tasks fairly. She has always been an introvert, since the beginning of our relationship, and I have not noticed anything different.

How often are you two sharing sex now? Is it the sex, or is it her attraction to you? Was she going through postpartum depression with the last kid and it went untreated?

Once or twice a week and I always initiate it. She is a very beautiful woman and I always thought she was out of my league. Our therapist did suggest that she was burned out and asked her to scale back work and asked me to step up a bit more. This helped a lot, to be honest.

Polyamory means "many loves." I'm glad you understand that it could involve sharing both feelings and sex with another partner. What open model would it even be? Eventually working toward coprimary? Something else?

Models of Open Relationships by Kathy Labriola
If Emma ends up not liking it, is she going to ask you to dump the new partner? And would you oblige, or tell Emma, "No, thank you. You don't get to decide what happens in my other relationship(s)," or similar?

Given how she is "hovering" now with the "theoretical Amy"... is Emma going to "hover" like that if you do change to poly and date other people? Always wanting to know if you text, what you text? Wanting to know things that aren't her business? The other dyads get no privacy?

These are some of the topics that we have discussed. I will be first reading into some of the material that is posted here and then approach her with these questions.

Not being mean, ok? But what's so great about maintaining the marriage, rather than separating and being coparents? Then Emma dates or does not date how she wants, and you date/don't date how you want. You'd still be family, but perhaps that's a more sustainable and realistic relationship shape?

Are you coming to polyamory as a "crutch" or "bandaid" thing to help you endure a wonky marriage or avoid a breakup?

Would you do poly even if you were divorced?

I do not want to separate at all, as I love her and she loves me. I love spending time with her. I love being her husband and raising our kids together. I am not sure if I will be poly if we divorce. I should discuss with Emma more about this.

Because while some can manage the change to poly, if your wife is basically checking out of the sexual/romantic part of your marriage, I think it is going to be a whole lot easier for you to change to a divorced coparenting family than change to polyamory.

I am not sure this is true. We still do have sex and we are very affectionate. We kiss/hug/cuddle a lot. I don't think divorce is on the table right now.

You have raised some excellent points. I need to do some reading and talk to my wife more openly and lay all the cards in front of her and set some expectations.

 

[GalaGirl]

I need to do some reading and talk to my wife more openly and lay all the cards in front of her and set some expectations.

I think so. Don't involve other people until you even know what this ACTUALLY is.

Early childhood is incredibly demanding. If this is about being burned out from that, maybe Emma would do better going to work full time with the kids in school/daycare. Eventually that early childhood stage of life is over and gets better, and taking some initial steps now might help. Is the 4-yr old in VPK? Maybe that would help too.

If it's true that she's happy in this marriage, and it's a happy one for you too, why even deal in poly? What happiness is missing?

GG

 

[Stevek]

Is the 4 yr old in VPK? Maybe that helps too.

I think there was some miscommunication issues. Our youngest son is 9 now. The issues started when he was 4. Our kids are fairly independent (well, as independent as a kids their age can be).

If it's true that she's happy in this marriage, and it's a happy one for you too, why even deal in poly?

I think it is mostly for some more intimacy on my part. I feel like a dick for actually admitting it.

 

[GalaGirl]

Ah, ok. Thanks for more info. I thought the youngest was 4. So both kids are now in school.

I think it is mostly for some more intimacy on my part. I feel like a dick for actually admitting it.

Why do you call yourself a dick in talking, honestly? It's just talking.

What is "intimacy" in this sentence to you?

If you just want more sex, why would polyamory be the best fit, and not some other form of non-monogamy?

Is it just more sex in general? Then sharing more sex with other partners might help. If it's wanting more sex with your wife? Then sharing more sex with other people isn't gonna do much. They are not your wife.

And is it actually about physical/sexual intimacy? Or are you mistaking "sex" for all "intimacy?" Like maybe you want more emotional intimacy, mental intimacy, or spiritual/philosphical intimacy with your wife? Talking about your feelings, your thoughts, or your big beliefs about life, the universe and everything? Do you crave deeper connection with her, and not just the daily grind "surface" talks of what to make for dinner, who is watching the kids, what house repair needs doing?

Maybe it's a combo of intimacies you want, not just one kind.

GG

 

[Stevek]

If you just want more sex? Why would polyamory be the best fit? And not some other form of non-monogamy?

I feel like I am out of my depth here. What do you mean some other form of non-monogamy? Isn't that polyamory? Sorry for the stupid question. I found about this forum from a google search.

And is it actually about physical/sexual intimacy? Or are you mistaking "sex" for all "intimacy?" Like maybe you want more emotional intimacy, mental intimacy, or spiritual/philiosphical intimacy with your wife? Talking about your feelings, your thoughts, or your big beliefs about life, the universe and everything? You crave deeper connection with her?

I meant sexual intimacy. Emma and I used to be very sexual. She used to be a very active participant in sex. She used to initiate sex often. But now, it is me initiating almost every time. She only initiates during special days like birthdays and Valentine's day.

I actually feel very strongly that Emma satisfies all my emotional intimacy needs. It's not just mundane stuff.

 

[Tinwen]

So, I am confused now. Gun to my head, I would like to go out on a date with Amy. My wife is okay and Amy is okay too. But somehow there is something that is not allowing me to say to either that I want to go on a date.

That "something" might be honest introspection. Some (most?) people are actually monogamously inclined. If you fell in love all over again, would you be able to still love your wife too and sustain the marriage, or would you just want the new sweetie?

Unless this "something" is shame, I think that "something" might also be telling you this would not actually end up the way you want to.

You can be honest about feeling lust, attraction, craving more intimacy, or just a bit of variety, but valuing what you have above those.

 

[Tinwen]

I feel like I am out of my depth here. What do you mean some other form of non-monogamy? isn't that polyamory?

One-night stands. Swinging. A sex-worker. On the edge of polyamory-- a FWB. Or a partner for kink. I'm sure I forgot something. Polyamory is used for actual loving more-or-less committed relationships. In some sense it's the most complicated.

 

[Magdlyn]

Ah, ok. Thanks for more info. I thought the youngest was 4. So both kids are now in school.

He said the ages of his kids in his first post.

Why do you call yourself a dick in talking, honestly? It's just talking.

It's embarrassing to admit that, while your marriage and family life seem great, beautiful wife, two great kids, weekly dates, frequent romantic weekends, sharing paid work and household work fairly, that there's this damn penis who is saying, "Buddy, I want more. Much much more!"

What is "intimacy" in this sentence to you?

It's been obvious throughout the thread to me that most things in this marriage/family are great. I am surprised you'd think he's be referring to anything else besides sex. That's all he's been talking about.

I think you're really jumping the gun asking "What's wrong with just divorcing over your mismatched libidos?" The guy just joined the forum. He hasn't even had time to read our resources yet. I request you to take a step back, maybe reread the thread, give him some breathing space.

If you just want more sex, why would polyamory be the best fit, and not some other form of non-monogamy?

Is it just more sex in general? Then sharing more sex with other partners might help. If it's wanting more sex with your wife? Then sharing more sex with other people isn't gonna do much. They are not your wife.

My experience has been quite different. A large part of why I was so committed to finding more partners (instead of just chilling and letting them come my way more slowly) was my raging libido, and my female partner's greysexuality (after NRE). I did want her, I was frustrated by being turned on by her inner and outer beauty and not being able to express that with her physically, but having other lovers/FWBs/sex-kink-play-partners definitely helped. In fact, me getting some of my kink and sexual needs met elsewhere took the pressure off Pixi, and for a long period, made her more likely to initiate sex/kink, because when I was having sex with others, she didn't feel pressured to do it just to please me.

Is it actually about physical/sexual intimacy? Or are you mistaking "sex" for all "intimacy?" Like maybe you want more emotional intimacy, mental intimacy, or spiritual/philosphical intimacy with your wife? Talking about your feelings, your thoughts, or your big beliefs about life, the universe and everything? Do you crave deeper connection with her, and not just the daily grind "surface" talks of what to make for dinner, who is watching the kids, what house repair needs doing?

He's trying to be polite, and is calling sex "intimacy." Stevek, it's okay to talk about sex here. And you're not a dick for wanting sex. You just have a dick.

 

[GalaGirl]

He said the ages of his kids in his first post.

Yes. I missed it and he corrected me.

It's been obvious throughout the thread to me that most things in this marriage/family are great. I am surprised you'd think he's be referring to anything else besides sex. That's all he's been talking about.

Sometimes I want to be sure I'm talking apples to apples and would like confirmation from the OP. So I ask clarifying questions.

Sometimes it's not ONLY sex. Sometimes it's one issue in a multi-issue thing.

I think you're really jumping the gun asking "What's wrong with just divorcing over your mismatched libidos?" The guy just joined the forum. He hasn't even had time to read our resources yet. I request you to take a step back, maybe reread the thread, give him some breathing space.

Nobody makes a decision to divorce on a whim and certainly not at the suggestion of some internet stranger. At least I hope not.

To me Stevek is asking for help on what to even ask or think about. I'm making suggestions.

Stevek, to me you seemed to want to reflect and "talk out loud" in relatively anonymous space. You don't have to take anything on board you don't want to. It's your thread. And don't feel like you have to respond to everything either.

My experience has been quite different. A large part of why I was so committed to finding more partners (instead of just chilling and letting them come my way more slowly) was my raging libido, and my female partner's greysexuality (after NRE). I did want her, I was frustrated by being turned on by her inner and outer beauty and not being able to express that with her physically, but having other lovers/FWBs/sex-kink-play-partners definitely helped. In fact, me getting some of my kink and sexual needs met elsewhere took the pressure off Pixi, and for a long period, made her more likely to initiate sex/kink, because when I was having sex with others, she didn't feel pressured to do it just to please me.

For you it was BOTH things then. Wanting more sex in general AND wanting sex with Pixi.

I wanted to know what it is for SteveK if he's willing to share that.

I feel like I am out of my depth here. What do you mean some other form of non-monogamy? Isn't that polyamory? Sorry for the stupid question. I found about this forum from a google search.

It's not stupid to ask.

If it helps...

"Chicken noodle soup" is a type of soup. Not all soups are gonna be chicken noodle.

"Polyamory" is a type of non-monogamy. Not all non-monogamous relationship shapes are gonna be polyamory.

I'm not keen on Veuax as an author because he ended up doing abusive things, but here's a visual aid. Maybe that helps you.

Non-monogamy - Wikiwand

Non-monogamy is an umbrella term that describes a relationship arrangement where one or more partners are not sexually and/or romantically exclusive to each oth...

www.wikiwand.com

Here are a few simpler ones.

Ethical Non-Monogamy: Basics & Rules for ENM Relationships

Ethical non-monogamy is a relationship structure where all involved parties consent to have multiple romantic or sexual relationships, with honesty and open communication. Unlike cheating, all actions are aboveboard and ethically conducted, with respect for everyone's boundaries and feelings.

www.simplypsychology.org

Exploring Polyamory & CNM: Challenges & Opportunities — Kindman & Co.

Explore the challenges and opportunities of polyamory and CNM with Kindman & Co. Gain insights into navigating non-traditional relationships.

www.kindman.co

You could Google for more, but sometimes one cannot Google if they don't even know what to put. Here you could put "types of non-monogamy."

Some non-monogamy is ethical and consenting. Like consenting polyamory, swinging, or kink.

Some are NOT ethical and all parties affected do NOT consent, but it IS non-monogamy. Like a cheating affair sneaking around.

Maybe you and Emma prefer something that is more like "mostly monogamy." And one in a blue moon you have a casual thing with someone. Like if you do trips for work, what happens on trips happens on trips. That's also a form of consenting non-monogamy, but it's not polyamory.

I meant sexual intimacy. Emma and I used to be very sexual. She used to be a very active participant in sex. She used to initiate sex often. But now, it is me initiating almost every time. She only initiates during special days like birthdays and Valentine's day.

Thank you for clarification.

So... could it help to take sex OFF the table for a while? Maybe that's something else to think about.

GG

 

[Stevek]

I just had another quick chat with my wife over lunch.

I didn't mention a lot of stuff that has been suggested here. She did bring up an interesting anecdote. Her colleague is actually in a similar setting. Her colleague's husband is in a similar relationship. Without going into too much details, her colleague's husband has a steady girlfriend for last 7 years. She said that this arrangement works for the three of them.

I told her that I need to think a bit and we moved on to some other topics.

What works for her colleague probably won't work for us. I never had casual sex. So one night stands are off.

I will read upon on some of the resources that were posted here and then take it from there. Thanks! Feel free to ask me if you have any more questions. I am actually glad I asked here as I was able to have more productive discussions with my wife.

 

[moiandre]

Hi SteveK,

I was monogamous in a 20+ year relationship, and my wife fell for another person, as it turned out, of the same sex. We are still together and happily married and never wanted a one-night stand or to cheat on each other. Reading through your situation, and having been thrown into a V-triad, I would strongly suggest trusting your instincts.

Even introverts and people pleasers like me can't deal with the fallout unless there is serious commitment to each other, a frank honest full range of topics and professional help.

Every act, scenario, embarrassment, wish and fantasy are amplified tenfold within a family and extended group of friends once you head into this new reality. It is quite the paradigm shift.

Good luck.

 

[MeeraReed]

Welcome to the forum! I think you'll get a lot of comments/advice on your post because your situation is a reversal of the situations we see here most often, where one spouse wants to be non-monogamous and the other spouse is miserable in non-monogamy.

You sound like a likeable and thoughtful person, Stevek, and your love and consideration for your wife is wonderful.

I think you and Emma should keep talking about ethical non-monogamy/polyamory/an open marriage without acting on it yet.

You don't need to date Amy in particular just because she's a person who asked you out recently. Amy might not be a good choice if she is okay with a cheating relationship (unethical non-monogamy) because it could mean she won't care about Emma's feelings and your marriage to Emma. If Amy had said she was poly, she might've been a good choice to go on a date with; but either way, there is no need to rush into actually going on dates outside your marriage yet.

But I don't think you should drop the subject either. Emma is offering you a gift that would be the envy of many sexually frustrated people who love their unyieldingly monogamous spouse.

Emma loves you, wants you to be happy, and recognizes that you are giving up a significant part of yourself and your sexual needs by only being with her. She knows you love her and is offering you sexual freedom in case you'd like to no longer have to give up your sexual needs.

It's worth considering whether an ethically non-monogamous marriage is an option that could work for you and Emma, but there are many complications. For example:

• If Emma actually doesn't want to have any sex with you at all anymore, that might be a devastating loss for you, no matter how much sexual freedom with others you have.
• Humans tend to fall in love with people they have good sex with. If you don't want to fall in love with anyone other than Emma, maybe you shouldn't have sex with anyone else. If falling in love with someone else would make you fall out of love with Emma, or would break Emma's heart, it could potentially destroy your marriage.
• Emma might think she'd be fine with it, but might actually not be prepared for how she'd feel if you actually dated someone else.
• What if the person you dated wanted you to leave your wife? What if your wife asked you to stop dating your new partner? Etc.
• You would have to think about what you are actually offering other potential dating partners. Just sex, no emotional attachment? A relationship that is kept secret from your friends and family (except for your wife) and thus is kind of like an affair in many ways? Or would you be open about being poly and willing to face judgment and weirdness in your social circles? If you got a girlfriend, would you introduce her to your friends? To your kids? Etc.

You and Emma should keep communicating about this and learning more about non-monogamy and all its variations. Read this forum, learn about polyamory.

One thing I'm confused about. You wrote:
I didn't mention a lot of stuff that has been suggested here. She did bring up an interesting anecdote. Her colleague is actually in a similar setting. Her colleague's husband is in a similar relationship. Without going into too much details, her colleague's husband has a steady girlfriend for last 7 years. She said that this arrangement works for the three of them.

I told her that I need to think a bit and we moved on to some other topics.

What works for her colleague probably won't work for us. I never had casual sex. So one night stands are off.

I don't understand the above. Who has casual sex in your anecdote? The colleague's husband has had a steady girlfriend for 7 years, so that's not casual sex or one-night stands. Does the colleague herself have one-night stands, while her husband has a steady girlfriend?

If so, that's a good example of what we mean by different types of ethical non-monogamy. The husband here would be practicing polyamory, with a wife and a girlfriend, two separate loving relationships. The colleague (the wife here) would be comfortable with her husband's polyamory but she herself might prefer more casual non-monogamy, so what she wants for herself in her open marriage is one-night stands. Cool, that works for them.

Even if I'm misunderstanding your anecdote, my example might help you think about different shapes that non-monogamous marriages can have.

 

[Stevek]

What works for her colleague probably won't work for us. I never had casual sex. So one night stands are off.

I don't understand the above. Who has casual sex in your anecdote? The colleague's husband has had a steady girlfriend for 7 years, so that's not casual sex or one-night stands. Does the colleague herself have one-night stands, while her husband has a steady girlfriend?

Sorry, I am a bit technologically challenged. No one has casual sex in the anecdote I mentioned. I think I was supposed to add some more context to what I wrote about casual sex. My wife's colleague's husband is in a relationship with my wife's colleague and his girlfriend. As far as I am aware, there is no casual sex in that relationship. My wife's colleague mentioned that her sexual frequency with her husband actually increased after he got a girlfriend, as she felt a burden had been lifted off her. (I am not sure if I am conveying exactly what my wife told me.)


I brought casual sex into this conversation as one of the previous posters suggested that I can just be be married to my wife but get my sexual needs met by having casual sex. I do not think this is a viable idea for me. I never had casual sex. I've always dated women, since high school, with the intention of marrying them. (I understand that it is a bit lame for quite a few folks here.) I am glad that my approach finally worked with Emma and that I've had the immense privilege of sharing her life for the past decade+ that has resulted in a beautiful family.

Emma and I are reading the Opening Up book and we are taking it easy right now.

 

[Juan234]

Congrats on reading Opening Up together!

Ethical non-monogamy (ENM) has a spectrum of possibilities.

Polyamory can mean opening up to love of others as a two-way street. This includes that she should be free to date too. It is the Golden Rule, so to speak.

In swinging, where it starts off as just sex, couples go for it together in the same location at the speed of the slowest participant. Your wife being beautiful would mean she would get a lot of attention. But I digress.

In general, any ENM has to be built on a strong marital foundation to work. This includes honesty and great communication. I suspect that your spousal communication is casual. To be clear, there may be more depth of communication to be had.

It surprises me Emma is not open to therapy and jokingly offers to divorce, while offering a hall pass. Wow! To an independent observer there may be a red flag there somewhere. Is she cherished, admired, and given the attention she needs? Or, heaven forbid, is she cheating? Is she turned on at the thought of you with another woman? Is she just burnt out and feeling insecure? Is she being passive-aggressive, testing your commitment? Is she bi-curious? Does she venerate her coworker as a sage to better sex? Is she seeking a Sister Wife, as in her favorite TV show, Etc.

Not that any of my suggestions have any truth, it's just that something, to me, sounds missing. You sound honest enough, and you know your wife better than anyone. These are rhetorical questions, so there is no need to answer them, other than to perhaps ponder them. Yet there are thoughts we all have that we do not have the time to externalize sometimes.

My personal suggestion, given she is not open to therapy, is to get a hotel room, or send the kids out of the house (e.g., send them to their grandparents' house). Then spend a half day in bed naked in every sense, and indulging, and having deep conversations. Let her feel beautiful in the process, offer a long massage, have food delivered, or get dressed and go to a nice restaurant, like in the beginning, as if you had no kids, etc. Invest hours in free talking, and let both your feelings Freudian-like seep out. Give yourselves the space and time to do nothing naked in bed for hours and indulge in chatter and seemingly senseless banter. It is therapeutic. Your own curiosity about each other can drive a connection just like therapy, except in an enjoyable process and in slow motion.

The thing is, when we are kids we compete for parental attention. It works out if our parents have less sex because then we get less competition from new sibling rivalry. But keep in mind, you, as the couple are the foundation from which they came. So it is your relationship as a couple that came first and it needs to be strong and set the example.

Your original post was amazingly well-written.

Magdlyn, it's not just the penis. You have to also consider the balls. Particularly when they turn blue.

And yeah, yeah, yeah, I would have made my post shorter, “had I had” the time.

 

[MeeraReed]

Sorry, I am a bit technologically challenged. No one has casual sex in the anecdote I mentioned. I think I was supposed to add some more context to what I wrote about casual sex.

Ah, I see. Thanks for your response.

My wife's colleague's husband is in a relationship with my wife's colleague and his girlfriend. As far as I am aware, there is no casual sex in that relationship.

A point of clarification: I think the colleague's husband is in TWO relationships (one with his wife and one with his girlfriend). He is in not in ONE relationship with both his wife and his girlfriend.

That's a common misconception about poly, that it means people are in a group relationship or three-person relationship. Many poly people do indeed have (or attempt to have) long-term romantic threesomes (we call them triads) where 3 people are all dating each other and have sex and love for each other. However, that's not often a very stable relationship structure.

Since the colleague describes her husband as having a girlfriend, but not that the colleague herself is also dating the girlfriend, it means the husband has two separate relationships. The colleague may or may not have other relationships of her own (it sounds like from your wife's description, the colleague is happy just dating her husband and no one else). In poly terms, the husband's girlfriend would be the colleague's metamour. A metamour is someone who is also dating the same person you are dating (or married to).

Polyamory means having multiple relationships. Not multiple people in one relationship.*

(*Even for poly people who do have triads, where A + B + C are all dating each other, it can be useful if they think of their configuration as multiple separate relationships, A + B, A + C, and B+ C, rather than as one group relationship).

I'm just clarifying this for you since you are new and it might help how you think about polyamory. It can sound very weird and intimidating if you think of it as a relationship of multiple people.

My wife's colleague mentioned that her sexual frequency with her husband actually increased after he got a girlfriend, as she felt a burden had been lifted off her. (I am not sure if I am conveying exactly what my wife told me.)

That actually happens more than you might think!

I personally believe that long-term strict monogamy is not completely healthy for or natural to humans in general, mostly because it is so easy to end up feeling stuck in a rut sexually in a monogamous relationship. (I don't mean that everyone should be non-monogamous, rather that understanding the challenges of monogamy for humans would be a more healthy approach to successful monogamy. And also that non-monogamy should be a normal and viable option).

I brought casual sex into this conversation as one of the previous posters suggested that I can just be be married to my wife but get my sexual needs met by having casual sex. I do not think this is a viable idea for me. I never had casual sex. I've always dated women, since high school, with the intention of marrying them. (I understand that it is a bit lame for quite a few folks here.) I am glad that my approach finally worked with Emma and that I've had the immense privilege of sharing her life for the past decade+ that has resulted in a beautiful family.

That makes sense! Lots of people don't like casual sex. Some open marriages are open with the rule that the extramarital sex must be casual only. Polyamory is a different type of non-monogamy where falling in love with more than one person is allowed, so it's an appealing form of non-monogamy for people who don't like casual sex. (But also, plenty of poly people do have casual sex too).

Emma and I are reading the Opening Up book and we are taking it easy right now.

Good plan!

 

[Stevek]

I started a new thread in Life stories and blogs section https://polyamory.com/threads/steves-enm-journey.157798/

Thanks for your help here and hopefully you follow my journey there.