Please help. WTF just happened?

M

MsEmotional

Member
Everything is falling apart. I am devastated and confused.

Whiskers and I had our fourth date last night. Something clicked. We were both feeling more of a connection. We had sex. I was so nervous and self-conscious but I had a wonderful time and really enjoyed myself. We talked and discussed some of the questions that I (actually it was GalaGirl) had formulated for the future after the thing that happened with Laptop: "Would any of your current partners have a problem with us becoming more intimate?" and "Do you have any prior agreements with your partners that would affect where our relationship could lead, physically or emotionally?"

When I asked him these questions, he asked me them in return and I explained that Ponytail had some insecurities that he was working through, but that he recognized that that was his own issue to process. Although I try to be sensitive to my partner's needs, he and I both value autonomy and I have gotten better at not allowing one relationship to affect another.

Boy did I misunderstand Ponytail's state of mind with regard to Whiskers.

Today Ponytail and I had lunch. He had taken the day off from work because he was dealing with some depression. I knew I needed to tell him that Whiskers and I had had sex and I didn't want to hide it from him. When he told me that he had therapy the next day, I went ahead and told him that there were some changes that were going on with me and Whiskers that he might find useful to process in therapy and asked if he wanted to talk about those. He asked what was going on.

I was matter-of-fact. I told him that I had had sex with Whiskers. I didn't go into further detail. Ponytail said, "I'm confused. Do you want a relationship with [Whiskers]?" I said, "Yes? Maybe?" He knew that Whiskers and I were dating.....I didn't know that he hadn't processed that a relationship might be on the table?

He seemed surprised and hurt. I felt awful and confused. How had I misunderstood things so terribly?

We went grocery shopping, held hands, we kissed a little in the car. I could tell he was still hurting. Things seemed off, but I didn't realize how off they were until a few hours later when I was home taking a nap and my phone buzzed. It was Ponytail, breaking up with me.

He says that we want different things. He says he wants stability and I want more partners, that he can't keep up with all the changes. I told him that I value stability too -- the only reason I went back on OKC was because I wanted to feel okay with the instability of the idea of him being with someone else. I happened to find someone I really liked, but it wasn't because I was *seeking* other partners, it wasn't because I *need* other partners in order to be happy. I just need autonomy. He said that I should be able to explore a relationship with Whiskers. That he doesn't want to hold me back but that his needs aren't being met as they are and if I have a relationship with Whiskers they will be met even less. He says he doesn't think he is poly anymore. That he loves me, but he can't handle me having a relationship with Whiskers.

I asked him to talk to me. To tell me what these needs are that weren't being met. To tell me how he foresaw a relationship with Whiskers affecting his relationship with me and to give me a chance to negotiate with him so that his needs could be met in our relationship. I asked him to focus on our relationship and how to fix whatever felt broken about it -- and to not fixate on my relationship with Whiskers. He said he didn't know what needs weren't being met. That he already wants more time with me and that he will get less if I am in a relationship with Whiskers. I said sure, let's talk about time. How would you like to re-think the time that we spend together?

I kept trying to refocus the attention on what was in our locus of control as a couple -- how could we work on whatever issues were making him feel insecure in our relationship? He just kept coming back to Whiskers. That he couldn't handle me being in a relationship with Whiskers. That he doesn't want to have other relationships and only is willing to date because he feels like he has to in order to fill the time that he doesn't have with me.

I asked him to take some time. To talk to his therapist. To get some sleep before making a final decision. I told him that I love him and that I value and cherish my relationship with him. I told him that I don't want him to be unhappy.

I don't know what I'm going to do. He's not giving me an ultimatum, but I still feel like I am faced with two choices.

  • If I broke things off with Whiskers and told Ponytail that our end of our V could be closed, that might appeal to him. We might be able to tentatively get back to the way things were. We would both have the stability that we have been wanting. But he might also continue to feel like he isn't getting enough of me. And without him finding another partner, he would be eliminating his opportunities for having a child of his own. Those issues would still be there.
  • I could let Ponytail go. I could acknowledge that he is unhappy with having me only part-time and I could recognize that this isn't going to change. I know that, ultimately, this is not about Whiskers -- it's about Ponytail feeling scared and insecure and its about the fact that Ponytail wants more of me than I have available to give to him. Whiskers doesn't actually make an impact on any of that. But I don't think I could still explore a relationship with Whiskers if Ponytail and I break up. It's a catch-22 (is that the expression?): If I want to be with Ponytail, I'd have to end things with Whiskers....and if I want to keep my autonomy I'd have to end things with Ponytail....which would make me so sad that I'd end up ending things with Whiskers anyway.

Fuck. How did I screw this up so badly? How did I go from being blissed out and ecstatically happy to a sobbing mess in less than 18 hours? How did I so completely mis-predict the outcome of last night's events?

Please help: Is there any way for my relationship with Ponytail to be ethically salvaged? And -- in all scenarios -- what do I tell Whiskers?
 
You are never going to be able to meet Ponytails needs. He wants and apparently needs a Monogmaous relationship.

He wants the white picket fence American dream and you cannot give him that.

Love is not always enough. Sometimes we just have to let them go and not be selfish and keep them in a place that causes them pain.
 
I am sorry to hera Ponytail broke up with you and that you are hurting. :(

He says that we want different things. He says he wants stability and I want more partners, that he can't keep up with all the changes.
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In your other thread, I suggested this might be a "main problem" and not "additional problem." At the time you were not able to see it as such. I think it's reared up again. The bottom line seems to be that you and Ponytail might be initially compatible but are finding that you are not deeply compatible. One or the other is often struggling with something.

He dates because he wants to "fill time" because you are off dating. You date because he's off dating. It's some odd circle thing.

He's already kinda compromising a lot to be in a V with you and Glasses and then Glasses has his other partner over THERE. He doesn't get enough time with you like he wants. I think he wants exclusive. He just about can handle sharing you with husband.

But if this is going to be something else? Not a (Closed Poly N) but an (Open Poly Network) where you have Glasses for a husband, Ponytail for a BF, and also dating Whiskers, Charles, and the Woman and....? I could see where Ponytail might find it a bit much and not what he signed up for. He might fixate on Whiskers because he came first after Ponytail. But the bottom line might be that he doesn't want to be in a big ol' poly network.

He wants something tighter, and he wants kids. He cannot get that here.

I could let Ponytail go. I could acknowledge that he is unhappy with having me only part-time and I could recognize that this isn't going to change. I know that, ultimately, this is not about Whiskers -- it's about Ponytail feeling scared and insecure and its about the fact that Ponytail wants more of me than I have available to give to him.
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That has been true for a long time. I am glad you are able to recognize that now. I think the kindest thing would be to acknowledge it and accept it. Let Ponytail go since he wants to go.

Fuck. How did I screw this up so badly? How did I go from being blissed out and ecstatically happy to a sobbing mess in less than 18 hours?
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You seem to feel things intensely. You go up and down pretty fast. I guess that's why you picked Ms Emotional as your nickname. It is ok to be how you are and feel what you feel.

Just that this time... it's a low part. I'm sorry. :(

I don't know if it would ease the up and down in future. But a suggestion... Say you can handle 4 partners well... then only date 3 at a time. Always leave 1 space "blank" to have space to process emergencies or crisis like this. Because if you are full at 4 in your time management, and then something happens, you are going to feel overextended because you didn't leave yourself some room.

How did I so completely mis-predict the outcome of last night's events?
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I think maybe you see the world through your POV, and have a hard time seeing it from another person's POV.

Or maybe it's easy for internet strangers looking in to see the writing on the wall where people who are IN it might get "cannot see the forest for the trees."

I really don't have answers other than it is normal to be going "Why? Why?" at this time when just recently broken up. It's ok to mourn the loss. I do sympathize. :(

Please help: Is there any way for my relationship with Ponytail to be ethically salvaged? And -- in all scenarios -- what do I tell Whiskers?
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You could tell Whiskers your other relationship broke up and you need a week or so of space to deal with that on your own and you will contact him in a week. If not, he can reach out in a week.

Then you could do the kindest thing for both you and Ponytail and let the relationship shape change. Let it stay ended with some dignity. Try to be good exes and friends, but stop trying to be a romantic couple.

Later after you heal from the break up, you could better define autonomy.

Why is it (you can be with Glasses and retain your autonomy) but (you cannot be with Ponytail and retain your autonomy)? That might help you figure out what new partners might be deeply compatible and which ones are only initially compatible.

Galagirl
 
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Sometimes people don't know what they can and cannot handle until the situation occurs. 26 years ago I thought that I could handle MrS visiting SweetPea and, of course, having sex with her. I reacted poorly (to my surprise). This did not break us up but scared MrS off of pursuing other women for YEARS. Even though I got over it and figured myself out relatively quickly (weeks, even, not months!)

Sometimes it is the "little" boundaries that trip us up. I had played with TT and had oral favors from him, which the boys were well aware of, but when I had a PIV moment with him (protected), that lasted all of 7 seconds, THAT was somehow "different".

When I talk to women on OKC and tell them about it, it just feels like "disclosure" (no judgement), News-In-Passing. When I talk to men on OKC and tell them about it, it feels like "confession".

I don't know that you had misunderstood anything based on what Ponytail had conveyed to you. He may have deluded himself by refusing to acknowledge that "dating", by definition, could lead to sex and relationships.

In his mind may have been a subconscious thought that, since you already HAD a nesting partner, then he should find one too and everything would be "even". For some reason, it seems that Men are more tolerate of existing (male) partners than new ones? (In my mind, this may be a biological imperative - the newcomer is the "threat".) It feels to me, that his "needs not being met" without being able to articulate what "needs aren't being met" is a cop-out - he is uncomfortable and his "need" is being comfortable.

If he wants more time with you - you say that Whiskers doesn't actually have any impact on that:

its about the fact that Ponytail wants more of me than I have available to give to him. Whiskers doesn't actually make an impact on any of that.
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BUT, earlier, you mentioned that you turned down time to spend with Ponytail because you already had plans with Whiskers. Then, when Whiskers cancelled, you worried about whether it was ok to make new plans with Ponytail because you are suddenly free. So it seems that it MAY have an impact - you didn't have the time to spend with Ponytail because you had scheduled time with Whiskers.

As to whether you can salvage your relationship with Ponytail - I don't know. He might have had an eye-opening experience that he is just not cut out for poly (or having a poly GF).

As to what you tell Whiskers - you have had 4 dates and 1 sexual encounter - you don't owe him more of an explanation than what you care to give. ("I'm sorry, I am in a very confusing place right now when it comes to my relationships. I find myself in an uncomfortable place to be dating - so I am going to stop doing that for the time being. I think you are awesome, should I call you when I have my head sorted out? I understand if you are done.")
 
MsEmotional, you have had a lot going on in your life over the past year or two: opening up your marriage; becoming involved with Ponytail; dealing with the fall-out of telling your in-laws about your poly status; dealing with Glasses' other relationship/s; a pregnancy and miscarriage; coming out to Ponytail's mother; the (non) relationship and break-up with LapTop; dating anew with Whiskers and talking to other potentials online... all while trying to raise young children.

I think it's time for you to sit back and take stock of what YOU really want out of life and relationships. Not for Ponytail's sake... not for Whiskers... but for YOU. Autonomy for its own sake doesn't seem to be serving you well at this stage.

Ask yourself:

- WHAT do you really want from life and relationships?

- WHO do you want involved in your day-to-day life?

- How much time and emotional energy do you have to devote to other relationships without sacrificing time/energy from those you're already involved in? (How many full-scale relationships can you realistically handle?)

Only when you've settled on the answers to these fundamental questions should you THEN ask yourself:

- Can you really give Ponytail what HE needs and wants, long-term?

- WHAT does Ponytail really want and expect from life and his relationship with you? (Obviously it can't be total monogamy because you're married. Children? To be "owned" by you as his Domme? And what does this look like for him moving into the future?)

- What does Whiskers want out of your association - and do YOU want the same thing?

- Are you still interested in dating/seeking other partners, playmates, FWB or the like, outside of your main relationships? (If so, have you adequately communicated that to your current partners, including Whiskers?)
 
That's a great post from Lunabunny.
 
I 100% agree with Lunabunny, but also am very much on board with the posts from the others, and also especially Dagferi.

As you noted in your own blog, you can't seem to stop dating and have a love/hate relationship with it. It might be the relative new-ness that you feel around dating. That you just never really dated all that much before so the temptation to get out there and experience it, and feel the desire of people wanting you and the chase is just too much to resist and that's something you really want in your life. THAT IS OK AND YOU'RE ALLOWED TO WANT THAT! If you wanna enjoy the freedom and autonomy to date, then do it! But you have to be able to be self aware of what you can handle, what your partners can handle, and if the consequences and impacts to current relationships are worth it.

But also, I honestly don't think that you can ever give Ponytail what he wants. I think you know it, and he knows it, but you both love each other so you've spent the past 2ish years trying to cram a square peg into a round hole and make it work. Not to say that you weren't great together in many ways and there wasn't love there, because there was and you both had some really great things going on. But like Dagferi said.... sometimes love isn't enough. If Ponytail is struggling with the realization that he wants a partner that he can live with, have kids with, be is Dom, and do all of the domestic things with full time that you just can't offer any more than part time? As much as you may not want to, the most loving thing that you both can do for each other, might be to respectfully, and amicably realize that the love you both have for each other can't bridge that gap, and then let each other go.

It sucks, it really does. I know you are hurting unbelievably right now. But you are getting some solid advice from folks that is worth thinking about.

Honestly, even if Ponytail were to turn around and call you back and apologize and ask to get back together, I highly recommend that you both take pause and really think about whether that is kicking the can down the road or not. And if it is, is that worth it?

For what it's worth though, I'm sorry you're hurting so much.
 
Hi MsE,

I'm very sorry to hear that Ponytail is wanting to break up with you. I know you have a lot of history with him, have been through a lot with him and invested a lot into your relationship with him. It sucks to have that all come crashing down now. I can't imagine what pain you must be going through, though clearly it's very bad.

I'm not sure if things can be fixed with Ponytail. The one thing I feel sure of is that you'll have to lose your relationship with Whiskers. This is based on what you said in your first post here. I know others are kind of saying that maybe you can just take a break with Whiskers, and reevaluate after you have had a chance to process some things. Only you can decide if that's a possibility.

As for Ponytail, there seems to be two main obstacles. One, you have a relationship with Glasses and live with him. Two, you are unable to have children with Ponytail. Ponytail wants you full-time, and he wants kids. These are things you can't give him, regardless of Whiskers. Even if you divorced Glasses, you would still have the obstacle of having kids. Which in theory could be solved if Ponytail had a second partner, but hasn't he decided that he's not polyamorous? If that's the case, then breaking up with him might have been inevitable all along. Not a happy thought, but there it is. You can't meet all of his needs, and in fact I'm not even sure he can meet your needs. This is a breakup that both of you may have needed. It saddens me to have to say that.

I could be wrong about anything I've said here, of course. And maybe I hope I am wrong. Like I hope you can stay with Whiskers, and still save your relationship with Ponytail. Alas, I don't know how. I hope that somehow things work out for you, that you at least can get some healing.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
One thing I will add is if you upend your other relationships to pacify Ponytail he is probably going to fall apart everytime you try and be the authentic you.

Your relationship with him has been a constant cycle of Ponytail is unhappy and melts down. Then you jump through hoops to pacify him only to repeat the cycle again.

Go back and read your own post history especially early on. He has never been comfortable with your relationship. To put it bluntly I do not think he wants polyamory and there is nothing wrong with that.
 
Thank you everyone. I have thought a lot about what you all have said and it has helped me to stop and think when I am tempted to try to just pretend the last 48 hours didn’t happen.

We talked in person today. It was hard and painful. I pushed back on the idea that we could just close off the V and that would fix things. It’s something I am actually willing to do, since I have been craving stability too — but only if it actually makes us happier and more stable and I’m not convinced that it would.

We agreed that we would make an appointment to see a therapist together and in the meantime we would just put a pin in things. We had been meaning to see a therapist together for a long time and it felt like maybe this is the impetus that we need in order to do it.

Ironically, Whiskers’s wife is a poly-friendly, kink-friendly, queer-friendly therapist. So I asked Whiskers to give me some referrals for someone with the same qualifications (but with less of a conflict of interest) and maybe some experience with ASD. She got me some great people to start with.

On the topic of Whiskers, I waited until he texted me today around noon and then just told him what had happened. He was sympathetic — he had only met Ponytail twice but he already liked him and posited that maybe this wasn’t final. So when I asked for therapist referrals later in the evening he was happy to oblige.

So we aren’t making any decisions until we see a therapist. It will probably be at least a couple weeks and I am hoping that we will be able to clear our heads in that time. In the meantime, we are just going to take a break. No sex, but we are allowed to talk as long as we don’t try to negotiate or manage the relationship. Our agreement is that we will wait until we have a neutral third party to help us.
 
I pushed back on the idea that we could just close off the V and that would fix things. It’s something I am actually willing to do, since I have been craving stability too — but only if it actually makes us happier and more stable and I’m not convinced that it would.
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It could reduce some stresses, but if he doesn't feel like he gets enough time with you even then? And he still wants kids and you cannot be the mom? Then it's still not going to work.

I think you are correct to hold off on promising anything like that just to stop from breaking up.

So we aren’t making any decisions until we see a therapist. It will probably be at least a couple weeks and I am hoping that we will be able to clear our heads in that time. In the meantime, we are just going to take a break. No sex, but we are allowed to talk as long as we don’t try to negotiate or manage the relationship. Our agreement is that we will wait until we have a neutral third party to help us.
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Sounds like a good enough plan.

Be ok with it though if even after therapist, the healthiest choice so BOTH of you can ultimately be ok is to part ways.

Galagirl

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GalaGirl said:
It could reduce some stresses, but if he doesn't feel like he gets enough time with you even then? And he still wants kids and you cannot be the mom? Then it's still not going to work.

I think you are correct to hold off on promising anything like that just to stop from breaking up.

Sounds like a good enough plan.

Be ok with it though if even after therapist, the healthiest choice so BOTH of you can ultimately be ok is to part ways.

Galagirl

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Thank you. I'm trying to keep an open mind in both directions. Ponytail is too, although I think they mostly are just deeply regretting their reaction and wishing they could take it all back. But you are all right -- it can't just be undone....this is a symptom of an ongoing larger issue that just might be bigger than our love for each other. Ponytail's current status is that he doesn't want to date anyone else. Period. He doesn't want to break up with me and date someone else and he doesn't want to stay together and date someone else. He's determined that he isn't actually poly and that the idea of dating anyone else besides me just makes him anxious and sad. We talked a lot about whether he could actually be happy dating only me, knowing that it would mean not having a child of his own. I think he knows that breaking up and seeking a monogamous relationship with someone else doesn't guarantee him a kid either -- and the prospect of losing me and still not having a kid is too painful to think about. I get it -- it really does sound like he never truly loved anyone until he met me.....so what is there to say that he would actually be better off separating from me and looking for a monogamous relationship elsewhere? But that's still a lot to put on our relationship....for me there is a constant worry that there is someone else out there that could give him what he truly wants and that I am holding him back from finding that person.

There's a lot on our plate to navigate.....poly, kink, queerness/gender identity, ASD/NT communication and processing disconnect, kids...... plus anxiety and the fact that we are both relatively new to this all around. I'm annoyed at us for not getting on top of it earlier and seeing a neutral therapist together a long time ago...that we let the good times blind us to the underlying issues and make us think we could handle all of it on our own.
 
It's good that you are getting some counseling ... I think it will help, one way or another.
 
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