Poly in cinema

F

frazerbradshaw

New member
Hi everyone,

I’m an established filmmaker. My first feature film, Everything Strange and New, premiered at Sundance and is currently available as a stream on various platforms. My new feature, The Deep Sky, which I am just finishing, is a film about polyamory (among other things), and I want to share the trailer with the poly community.

http://www.frazerbradshaw.com/thedeepsky-playtrailer

As a filmmaker, I’m interested in observing the complexity of the human condition, and making a film about polyamory seemed like a rich and nuanced way to frame that. The narrative centers around a heterosexual couple who decide to open their relationship, sexually, but find themselves, not just in bed with, but in love with another woman. They are confronted with their own expectations and preconceptions as those things disintegrate. The human frailty of all three characters paints what I hope is a rich and authentic portrait of their polyamorous love.

It’s important to me to never pass judgement on my characters or their choices, and to insure that there is realism in the representations of whatever takes place in my films. Consequently, my film neither celebrates nor condemns polyamory, but simply observes it, allowing the audience to have a personal experience. Hopefully the open framework of the presentation holds a mirror that allows people to see polyamory in an unexpected way through their own desires and experiences, and I hope it reveals the validity of polyamory as a choice, painting it neither as a better or worse choice than any other. It’s worth noting that polyamory is never named in the film because of the prejudices that broader culture brings to the term — I think it’s a useful tool to show people unnamed representations, since the generalizations inherent in naming limits our ability to have fresh experiences.

I expect the film to be playing festivals late 2017 or early 2018, and to have a release of some sort afterwards, and I will certainly post when there are screenings.

In this era of dissolving sexual, racial and cultural stereotypes, I feel that thoughtful representations of polyamory are lacking, and that those representations are important in the continuing cultural struggle toward all people being allowed to be and be celebrated for their authentic selves.

Thanks,
Frazer
 
Hi, your trailer is pretty.

If you want to break down stereotypes, though, why did you choose as a subject a FMF triad? Sigh... this is one of the least common and least successful types of poly, and the most popular male fantasy.

Couples do not "both" fall in love with the same person. One person falls in love with another. One person falls in love with another. Sometimes it overlaps. In real life poly, usually, triads don't work out once infatuation passes.

You know there are other configurations?
 
Yeah I gotta be honest my heart sank as soon as I saw it was a FMF triad. Are we *ever* going to get some polyandry onscreen? :rolleyes::D
 
Paint Your Wagon was one film from the 1960s with a working MFM triad. Two guys had to learn to share one woman in an old Western frontier town. Really worth a look. Great film, fun music, humor and pathos.

Otherwise there are SO many MFM V's depicted in film, where the woman "has" to choose one man over another, the men are in fierce competition, etc. I just saw some of Camelot, where King Arthur and Sir Lancelot are competing for Guinevere. Of course, Julius Caesar and Marc Antony competed for Cleopatra.

Things would have worked out better for all if she didn't "have" to choose.

frazer, in the real life poly shared on this board, much more common than a triad, is a V, where one person is the "hinge," having 2 lovers who are the arms of the V. These 2 lovers may or may not be friends. Often they are barely acquainted. Me, I've never even met my gf's bf, and they've been together over 3 years.
 
I appreciate the concern about the FMF triad. In fact, I am bi, and I have another project that is MFM in orientation, but after four years of being unable to get it financed, I temporarily shelved that project with the intention to go back to it after this project.

One of the unfortunate realities that I live with, as a filmmaker, is that I have to do a certain amount of "considering my audience". If I make a film that is only appealing to a small demographic, then it is both difficult to finance and difficult to have exhibited. So I have to ask myself: How do I deal with ideas that are important, but make them accessible to a broader audience?

Right now, as sexual stereotypes are starting to melting away, there are some stereotypes that are melting faster than others. Right now, there is a cultural appetite for female bisexuality that there is not yet for male bisexuality, unfortunately, and employing the FMF triad allows me access to an audience who needs to see representations of non-traditional love (and other ideas present in the film), but are unlikely to see a film with a MFM depiction.

In fact, it may be that the male fantasy is what gets some people into the theater, but I have gone out of my way not to cater to that fantasy. The male character is generally the least secure and least emotionally prepared of the three.

Again, I absolutely understand the point of view, and I considered it through scripting and all the way through the edit. I honestly wish that I lived in a world where audiences didn't choose film's based on subject matter and financing was not a problem, but I don't, and I have to work within the confines that are inherent.

Cheers,
Frazer
 
I know of four movies with an MFM V:

  • "December Bride" (1990).
  • "A Small Circle of Friends" (1980).
  • "Bandits" (2001).
  • "Paint Your Wagon" (1969).
Plus I know of two movies with an FMM triad:

  • "Threesome" (1994).
  • "Three" (2010).
Frazer's trailer looks good and I've put "The Deep Sky" on my list of movies to see.
 
Zen had me watch "Cabaret" not too long ago. There is, for a time, a MFM triad going on there, but it's funny when each member of the original couple realizes that they are both having sex with their "third" guy.

Not long after that, he had me watch, "Henry and June" which is a very interesting film. There is a couple, they meet another couple, she falls in love with the wife first and then the husband, and then sort of the wife again, but it's all very dramatic and tumultuous, and ends with the couples parting ways back into monogamy. A younger Uma Thurman is in it.

During or after each of these films, Zen said to me, "Polyamory is complicated."

I also admit that reading the OP description of the film, I sighed when it was made clear that this supposedly groundbreaking, prejudice busting, stereotype scrubbing fresh look at the marvels of poly, is just yet ANOTHER attempt to tell the FMF triad story.

Really I wish that survey makers and filmmakers and reality tv casters would join a board like this and lurk and actually read stuff for a few months. Like especially the introductions and the relationships corner areas.

"Hi, my wife and I have been married a whole lot of years, but we recently decided to open our marriage. One of us is thrilled, the other has reservations, but we're boldly setting forth to find our third. What's a unicorn...? Anyhow, we are so happy to be ACTUALLY DOING THIS BRAND NEW THING THAT NO ONE DOES. Wow, aren't we mavericks. We can't wait to expand our love and bring a new partner, who will of course be equal in every way (except never as equal as us) into our happy home! And of course to get a little fresh new excitement *wink wink nudge nudge* in the BEDROOM, if you know what I'm say'n..."

And everyone is like, "Oh for gods sakes..."

I would so love to see a modern film about polyandry, or even multi-couple activity. I had an aunt and uncle who used to go to "retreats"...found out later they were swingers, but one element of that was pretty polyish. Going to the same retreat a couple of times every year for a long time, they got very close to another couple. So they all ended up dear friends, and they were almost a sort of "friends with seasonal benefits" quad. I think they thought of it as wife swapping, but I think there was more to it than such a crude term signifies. Just my opinion, though. And see, THAT, would make a movie I would love to watch!
 
I agree there's not enough poly in mainstream shows and movies, although I've enjoyed the glimpses that Sense8 has included in its story-telling. The MMF triad of Lito, Hernando, and Dani, which is never (as far as I know) deliberately defined, and yet presents a beautiful picture of poly (and true family) at work. In season 2 (no spoilers, I promise), its revealed that Neets has three dads and one mom, and they've all been living together for years. No one knows which dad is actually her biological father, and no one cares. It was amazing to watch.

Hopefully other shows will take a cue here and start adding more poly relationships, all of flavors, into their scripts.
 
I very much appreciate the level of conversation here. Discussion boards aren't always places where one finds mature and thoughtful substantive exchange.

To be honest, I have only limited experience with polyamory, personally (in a MFM triad), and when I wrote this film, I wasn't setting out to make a film about poly lifestyles. But as the script matured, I started to realize that polyamory was playing an important roll. I have a friend who's been in ploy relationships most of his adult life, so I had him be my poly consultant to vet the script for authenticity and accurate representations. And one of my actors has been in poly relationships, and she approved of the content and characterizations. But any given representation won't reflect everyone's experience, so no promises.

I think that we're at the beginning of this, and that there is a reciprocal relationship between representations and cultural acceptance; the more we accept, the more the positive representations of poly lifestyles, the more we accept. As we, as a culture, work through the limitations of our thinking, some representations will be better than others, but every representation helps to dismantle the limits we place on ourselves. In The Deep Sky, I do my best to present normalized representations of bisexuality, mixed race relationships and polyamory. I'm sure some will think I've failed, but it's what I can do.

Culture is changing and in 100 years, people will look back at where we are now, just as we look back at 100 years ago and think, "There were no child labor laws?!!! WTF?!".

kdt, thanks for that list of films, I'll check them out.

Thanks everyone for the engaged discussion. I'm learning a lot.

Frazer
 
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Thanks Frazer,

You're exploring sociological progress in a repressed society. Your films are not quite the films you want to do, yet represent a worldview that is an advancement of that of mainstream society. At the same time, you're posting on a board that sees the stereotype you're forced to work with and is cringing at the choice of your FMF triad.

Good on you. Go be groundbreaking with your new film. I think it's awesome that you can make this film with mixed races and polyamory a reality. I hope your film joins the ranks of one of the first of its type to explore such a complex dynamic.

You get my thumbs up for boldness.

EDIT: Spin-off thread on FMF and MFM.
 
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I understand that you have to sell this film to investors, a studio and to the audience but you're not only selling the typical male porn fantasy, you're perpetuating the stereotype that poly is only for young, thin, hot people. In truth, most successful poly relationships are not among young people at all. Sure, lots of young people (myself included) explore "poly" on their way to settling into a monogamous life with children, but long term, stable, solid poly relationships require a great deal of emotional maturity, which often only comes from many years of experience. There is so very much beauty in age and many beautiful actors who would better embody what poly is all about than the fresh faced, tight body people in the film. That's Hollywood. Thank goodness for Netflix, which champions many filmmakers who know that real people are fascinating.

I work in the art world and completely understand the dilemma of being true to your vision vs. having to market your art - but keep in mind that uncompromised art does break through. Wouldn't you rather succeed with something that is your art, reflects your vision and is not a compromised piece that was calculated to sell? Vision is what drives humankind forward and is what artists are remembered for.
 
Of course I haven't seen your film. But at first glance, it seems you're just catering to the male audience (and your financial backers...), males who think 2 women kissing and having sex is hot.

Porn, basically.

Maybe there is some realistic depiction of the pitfalls of a FMF triad in your film. But it's sad you could only get financial backing for the FMF porn idea.

You are actually, imo, doing a disservice to the modern polyamory movement. As Spork said, we get so many MF couples here, with their idea of "unicorn hunting," finding a "hot bi babe" to add as a "third" to "brought in to their relationship." And these kinds of unicorn hunters always fail, and are always thinking, "Well, we just haven't found the right 'girl' yet."

They get the idea of this relationship configuration from porn and other media. Media makes FMF triads seem hot and easy. When it's actually rare and difficult and based in fantasy.

We also get many burned former "unicorns," women who have been used by a couple as a marital aid, made to live in a box, taken out when wanted and then put away until she is wanted again. Disrespected, used as a housekeeper and babysitter, viewed with jealousy and suspicion by the wife, etc. Basically she's been used as a human sex toy. And she's usually kept hidden from friends and family, since the couple can't be "out" as "poly," since it would "hurt their careers" or "confuse their children."

We also get a lot of women here, new to poly, who have been told by their husbands that they may date women, but no men. He thinks, she's bi, so she can date girls. That's not a threat to me. That's even hot. But date another man!? Hell no! His dick might be bigger than mine!!! The horror!

We call that a One Penis Policy. OPP.

As a woman in a long term FF relationship, who is poly, I use the dating site OK Cupid to date men. I have been asked by literally hundreds of men whether they can "play" with my gf and me together, even though I state in my profile that she and I date independently. It's crazy. They don't even know what she looks like. All these men want is 2 vaginas and 2 sets of boobs. It's really gross and dehumanizing.

So, I don't know if we need anymore FMF triad movies, ever, really.

It's good you have an interracial couple though.
 
In addition to what everyone else has said, triads aren't the only type of poly there is. The most common type of poly is network poly. For instance, I am in totally separate relationships with my husband and my boyfriend. They've met each other, we've hung out as a group, but there's nothing more than friendship between them. My husband has 2 girlfriends and me. None of the women are involved with each other beyond friendship, though at least one of us is bi, we just don't connect that way with each other. My husband's girlfriends date other people, in addition to also being married. I have a large circle of poly friends and, by far, triads (or quads) are the least common form of poly relationships I've encountered. Off the top of my head, I'm not sure whether I know anyone who has a current triad in my local friend group.

I think the fact that your movies, including the one that you couldn't get financed, focus only on triads is at least part of what people are responding to when they say that you are perpetuating societal norms, not challenging them as much as you could.
 
Hi everyone,

Well, none of you have seen the film, so maybe sharing a trailer isn't really so useful. In the film, the idea to open the relationship comes from the woman in the couple, and the additional woman is the most dominant of the three. This was very much intentional and strategic to make the representations not be misogynist or cliché.

I appreciate the critique of sticking with beautiful young people, but in fact, the demographic that sees films are mostly young: 18-35, and I've already learned the lesson that making a film aimed at 35-50 year olds doesn't produce much of an audience. And the reality is that people do want to see beautiful people -- I don't like that any more than you do, but it is another reality that starved my first film of an audience, despite an extremely positive critical response and a number of prizes.

I make films so I can talk about ideas, and if I have to make some concessions to the marketplace in order to insure there are people in the seats to hear the ideas, then that is a compromise I'm willing to make -- if a tree falls in the forest and there's no one there to hear it, does it make a sound?

I must admit that I'm a bit disappointed in the overall response. If I am, in fact, doing a disservice to the poly community, then the alternative is for me to not represent the poly community at all, and I don't think that one less voice attempting to speak to progressive ideas of love is better, simply because my representation doesn't meet some definition of an ideal. There are tens of thousands of people making films, and those of us who want to expand the cultural conversation around polyamory, as best we can, are probably to be counted on one's fingers and toes. I make no claim that my representations are perfect, but they are fair and non-judging representations of something that is mostly unrepresented.

I'm on your team. Most of the world isn't. Perhaps I'm not an exceptional player for your team, but I am playing my hardest to win this game. If we want to see the world changed, we have to put up with it changing my means that we don't, personally, think are ideal, because everyone has their own tool kit.

Mind you, I'm quite happy to engage in meaningful and considered critical dialogue, but being told that I'm doing a disservice simply because I've chosen a FMF triad as subject matter seems counterproductive. Perhaps a thoughtful response will mean that a future film I make is more expansive in its dealings? I'd love to be taught, I'd love to have my horizons broadened, but it doesn't inspire me to grow and learn when I feel judged for attempting to do the right thing.

Frazer
 
frazerbradshaw said:
I appreciate the critique of sticking with beautiful young people, but in fact, the demographic that sees films are mostly young: 18-35, and I've already learned the lesson that making a film aimed at 35-50 year olds doesn't produce much of an audience. And the reality is that people do want to see beautiful people...
Click to expand...

This is valid. Most Hollywood movies, other than comedies, star outrageously beautiful people.
I make films so I can talk about ideas, and if I have to make some concessions to the marketplace in order to insure there are people in the seats to hear the ideas, then that is a compromise I'm willing to make -- if a tree falls in the forest and there's no one there to hear it, does it make a sound?

I must admit that I'm a bit disappointed in the overall response. If I am, in fact, doing a disservice to the poly community, then the alternative is for me to not represent the poly community at all, and I don't think that one less voice attempting to speak to progressive ideas of love is better, simply because my representation doesn't meet some definition of an ideal.
Click to expand...

This is not valid. You didn't "fall short of an ideal" of polyamory. On the contrary, as far as I can tell from the trailer, you created an idealized version of poly. You made mainstream softcore porn.

There are tens of thousands of people making films, and those of us who want to expand the cultural conversation around polyamory, as best we can, are probably to be counted on one's fingers and toes. I make no claim that my representations are perfect, but they are fair and non-judging representations of something that is mostly unrepresented.
Click to expand...

FMF threesome sex is the most common male fantasy. It is not underrepresented in porn. It's common as can be.
Mind you, I'm quite happy to engage in meaningful and considered critical dialogue, but being told that I'm doing a disservice simply because I've chosen a FMF triad as subject matter seems counterproductive. Perhaps a thoughtful response will mean that a future film I make is more expansive in its dealings? I'd love to be taught, I'd love to have my horizons broadened, but it doesn't inspire me to grow and learn when I feel judged for attempting to do the right thing.

Frazer
Click to expand...

Did you go to art school? I did. We art students, at least in the Painting dept, had weekly critiques of our work, putting the work up in the front of the class and getting criticised by teachers and other students alike. 4 years of art school, 40 weeks a year, that is 160 critiques. You kinda get used to it.

However, I am glad your work has received praise, that is encouraging, I'm sure.

I am sure we all want to help you. You want to help us. It seems the consensus is, by the experienced polyamorists here, perpetuating the sexy FMF threesome myth doesn't really help in any true to life discussion of your topic.
 
I am ASTONISHED no one has gone "Unicorn" yet.

Well, let it not go unsaid.

Edit: oops. Ok. Magdalyn did. I missed reading the post.

Sidenote: This is the second time in two days I'm editing the post to acknowledge Magdalyn said something similar to what I posted just a few posts ago.
 
Frazer, I'm sure it is a nice film. Just that for a forum that only discussed poly all the time, it is such a stereotype (we call it unicorn hunting - couple seeking hot bi-babe) so it is sort of difficult to not click a link already expecting a unicorn scenario, find young people and.... get into a discussion about it.

Don't take it personally. It isn't a film review. We haven't seen the film. We dissect everything.
 
Apologies that my responses take a while. I'm still on approval, and my last response took three day to post.

Magdyln, In fact, I did go to art school, for eight years. A fine arts high school for three and undergrad in performance, sculpture and ultimately a BFA in fine art filmmaking. I'm readily aware of the pitfalls of ignoring critique and ever conscious of interrogating the implications of what I make before I do.

I am very much aware that there are some stereotypes in depicting two women together. Actually, that's strategy. Revolutions don't happen when they are fringe, they happen when they are popular; sometimes it's necessary to use the language of the mainstream to engage an audience that needs to be exposed to the content underling the subject.

I think my mistake is sharing the trailer, which inherently simplifies the situations depicted, even as I worked to ensure that the trailer felt open to possibilities. In the film, what starts as a stereotype of "unicorn hunting" gets turned around and made complex by the "unicorn" who proves the more dominant. She then engineers a three couples division, and turns the tables on the original couple in the end, after redefining everything. But again, there's no way for you to know any of that from the trailer.

But I also think that, watching the trailer, there is no reason for you to assume that I am aping an uninformed pop-cultural male gaze, a conclusion several here have been very quick to draw. Perhaps if you watch the film you will find it troubling, or perhaps you will find that it deconstructs the very stereotypes you believe it to be perpetuating (or perhaps both); You'll have to judge for yourself, but as of yet, there is no film to see, so we'll all have to wait to find out what you think about the film itself once it is complete.

Cheers,
Frazer
 
Wow...tough crowd...lol

I'm of the opinion that no publicity is bad publicity. I get that there is a wider audience that needs to be appealed to. I don't see anyone here offering to fund a movie with a MFM triad. I also think it's a bit of a stretch to say the movie does a disservice to poly folks, or to call it porn. From what little I could tell from the trailer, it doesn't look like everything is all sunshine and roses. Personally, I think a FMF triad could make for a lot of good drama, especially after having been in one myself.

I'll have to reserve judgement until after I see it. If it shows all the characters relating to each other in realistic ways, then it's a good thing.
 
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