Poly stereotyping and I made a mistake :/

[mountaingirl]

Hello everyone!
I've posted a couple times on here so I'll try to keep the context of my situation brief. I'm in a relatively new poly relationship (less than a year), and as my husband is still getting used to the idea of me loving another man (we'll call my husband Joe and this other man John), John and I decided not to have sex so as to keep things moving as slowly as possible for everyone's sake (and, it's important to add, Joe actually requested that we not have sex).
While a lot of the initial stages of this relationship were unfolding, we all lived apart and emotions were often running high (as to be expected). I confided in a work friend of mine who lived close by, and it turns out she told someone else we work with (we'll call them E) who clearly doesn't have a great view on polyamory. John and Joe and I went to a party with them one night, and I'm guessing E had heard things about my life from this "friend" of mine, because E started a rumor that John ate me out on the couch... in the middle of the party... which makes literally no sense as we were all 3 together for the entire night. I don't remember anything even close to that happening, and neither do John and Joe (one positive note: Joe believes wholeheartedly that this didn't happen and John handled telling Joe so I didn't have to, which was cool). E told me he doesn't want John coming to his house again because of this (he threw the party that night). I cried when he was telling me this (because I was overwhelmed by information I had not heard before and feeling very attacked, plus I have had a man do things to me while I have been intoxicated that I later don't remember) and he literally said "clean yourself up, you're embarrassing yourself". He made it clear that he thinks I cheated on Joe with John and that he thinks I am less than garbage for that + that I am pretending to not remember it happening. I have tried not to let this get to me, bc whatever, this guy doesn't pay my bills, who cares what he thinks, no one believes him anyway since it's so ridiculous, but I will admit that this shit STUNG--especially with how hard the past year has been for all 3 of us. I let this shit get to me; I partly blame myself for confiding in someone I clearly didn't know enough and for making the mistake of thinking I was around the type of people that would be okay with me bringing my husband and my boyfriend to a party (even if I just introduced John as my friend). I have to see E and the fake friend at work and it's been rather difficult; my sense of self worth is way down. Yesterday John and I had a great day together, I was feeling very emotional, one thing led to another and we had sex. I immediately told Joe about it (THAT was hard, especially since we had just had a conversation about focusing on us), and am just layering on the self hatred right now. Joe is 'fine' with everything, he was initially very angry and then apprehensive of all the feelings of jealousy, rage, etc. that might accompany this incident, but things are a lot better today and John and Joe are hanging out together soon so I imagine they'll sort whatever they need to sort out regardless. I would like to add that I take full responsibility for my actions, so please no "wtf is wrong with you" comments. I know I fucked up. I also know this is long-winded; kind of wondering what other poly people do to be kind to themselves if treated this way, + if anyone has advice on handling mistakes when boundaries were established regarding what can be done with certain partners.

 

[TXretired]

You own it. Step one. When needed to talked to Joe about sex with John - step two. We all screw up. Some don’t recover. You appear to have evaluated things well. Carry on.

 

[GalaGirl]

Let me repeat back what I understand. Blue jsut to visually block it off.

You are in a V with husband Joe and boyfriend John for about a year.​

​

You told your coworker friend that you were in a V.​

​

This friend told some other coworker E about it. E doesn't have a great view of polyamory.​

​

You all went to a party at E's house the other night. Where E started a rumor that John ate you out on the couch in the middle of the party. This was a lie and makes no sense.​

​

E told you he doesn't want John coming over to his house any more because of the rumor (which E started in the first place.)​

​

You felt attacked and this shit stung.​

​

You also blame yourself for confiding in a coworker who later blabbed to E.​

​

And you blame yourself for taking both husband and BF to a party (maybe without checking in with the host first to be sure this was safe space.)​

​

And now you have to see both the coworker who outted you to E and E themselves at work. (Rather than THEY have to see YOU, who they wronged? One betraying a confidence and the other starting rumors? )​

​

You shared sex with John when emotional about all the above. Told Joe and while surprised and initially thrown, ultimately Joe is fine with it. ​

Is that about it?

I would like to add that I take full responsibility for my actions, so please no "wtf is wrong with you" comments. I know I fucked up.

I think you are beating up on your own self unnecessarily. Cuz WHAT did you fuck up really?

• You trusted a coworker. And then they outted you to E. without your consent so maybe the coworker is naive or not trustworthy after all.
• Then you found out coworker E. is person who starts rumors and kind of a jerk party host. So no loss on your end if you do not attend E parties any more.
• And then your BF comforted you. Ok, maybe you both shared sex sooner than planned due to duress from the above, but you don't allow yourself to be human?

I also know this is long-winded; kind of wondering what other poly people do to be kind to themselves if treated this way, + if anyone has advice on handling mistakes when boundaries were established regarding what can be done with certain partners.

I think you could skip beating up on yourself.

Then talk to your partners about how "out" you want to be with other people in general and at work. Esp when you are not entirely confident in your V yet. Still new and sorting things some things out.

Then talk about safer sex practices and realistic expectations because you know what? You will at some point be sharing sex regularly with both husband and BF, and each dyad needs its own space/privacy around that while maintaining sex health hygiene/birth control.

Then just get on with your life at work as usual.

Galagirl

 

[MeeraReed]

If E brings his inappropriate and misogynistic treatment of you to the workplace, document everything and report him to HR.

Something is very wrong with E. I understand how you feel shaken, attacked, slut-shamed, and filled with guilt/shame. You don't deserve the feelings of guilt/shame for what E said. I was in a similar situation, and it took me a while to figure out that I was really feeling was fear--if someone I trusted and considered a friend could really say that to me/feel that way about me, what ELSE could they do? The stuff my "friend" said was so gross it bordered on violence, and it took me a while to separate my embarrassment from what I was really fearing: fear. Fear of misogyny and how it goes hand in hand with violence against women.

I can see that it was not great timing to add sex with John without clearing it with Joe first, but it sounds like Joe knew it would be on the table eventually?

 

[kdt26417]

Hello mountaingirl,

Wow, you have been through a rough time lately. I'm really sorry about that. For the record, I don't think you "fucked up." Obviously you did some things that you would do differently if you had a time machine -- you wouldn't confide in your one work friend, you wouldn't go to E's party with John in tow, and you wouldn't have sex this time with John. These things could be called mistakes, but mistakes that anyone could easily make, and I think "fuck-up" would be *way* too strong of a word.

I don't know if maybe this might be the time to sit down with Joe and John, and discuss the elephant in the room: namely, that it looks like it is getting closer to the time when you and John might be allowed to have sex with each other, on a regular basis. Like you might ask Joe how long he thinks he will need (until then), and, you might ask yourself how you feel about it, like how long do you think you will need. I think you mentioned in your other threads, that you had some kind of trauma in your past that made sex with John a complicated proposition?

As for your coworkers, you just know that you aren't going to talk to them again, about anything outside of work. You aren't going to go to any more of E's parties. You aren't going to confide in the friend that told E what you said. They are not friends to you anymore. They are not work friends. They are just coworkers. And as for the rumors E spread, there's not much you can do except answer people's questions if they ask. "No, John did not eat me out on the couch." If they don't ask, you just have to write them off as being in E's camp.

If things get too uncomfortable for you at work, you might consider looking for a different employer. Just keep in mind, by all rights it should be E, and the person who blabbed to E, that leaves, not you. So don't leave out of feeling like you did something wrong, because you did nothing wrong. If you have to leave, do it because those two coworkers are making your life Hell ... and you don't deserve to have to work under those conditions. Rather than switch employers, maybe you could get transferred to a different department or something.

The bottom line, is, that you are receiving persecution for being poly. If polyamory was a protected class, you could sue for harassment. Unfortunately, our society is not yet that enlightened, and as a pioneer of the poly lovestyle, you end up lashing yourself to the front of the train. You receive the maximum amount of punishment for making the smallest mistakes. It is part of being poly in today's world. I just want to encourage you to be as strong as you can. Don't let the harassment get to you.

With kudos and sympathy,
Kevin T.

 

[mountaingirl]

Let me repeat back what I understand. Blue jsut to visually block it off.

You are in a V with husband Joe and boyfriend John for about a year.​

​

You told your coworker friend that you were in a V.​

​

This friend told some other coworker E about it. E doesn't have a great view of polyamory.​

​

You all went to a party at E's house the other night. Where E started a rumor that John ate you out on the couch in the middle of the party. This was a lie and makes no sense.​

​

E told you he doesn't want John coming over to his house any more because of the rumor (which E started in the first place.)​

​

You felt attacked and this shit stung.​

​

You also blame yourself for confiding in a coworker who later blabbed to E.​

​

And you blame yourself for taking both husband and BF to a party (maybe without checking in with the host first to be sure this was safe space.)​

​

And now you have to see both the coworker who outted you to E and E themselves at work. (Rather than THEY have to see YOU, who they wronged? One betraying a confidence and the other starting rumors? )​

​

You shared sex with John when emotional about all the above. Told Joe and while surprised and initially thrown, ultimately Joe is fine with it. ​

Is that about it?



I think you are beating up on your own self unnecessarily. Cuz WHAT did you fuck up really?

• You trusted a coworker. And then they outted you to E. without your consent so maybe the coworker is naive or not trustworthy after all.
• Then you found out coworker E. is person who starts rumors and kind of a jerk party host. So no loss on your end if you do not attend E parties any more.
• And then your BF comforted you. Ok, maybe you both shared sex sooner than planned due to duress from the above, but you don't allow yourself to be human?

I think you could skip beating up on yourself.

Then talk to your partners about how "out" you want to be with other people in general and at work. Esp when you are not entirely confident in your V yet. Still new and sorting things some things out.

Then talk about safer sex practices and realistic expectations because you know what? You will at some point be sharing sex regularly with both husband and BF, and each dyad needs its own space/privacy around that while maintaining sex health hygiene/birth control.

Then just get on with your life at work as usual.

Galagirl

Thanks for the tips yeah I was a lil down in the dumps; I think I was just really kicking myself for disappointing Joe like this. I also learned my lesson and definitely don't plan on confiding in anyone about my relationship with John any time soon, especially while we're all figuring things out. As far as establishing space and privacy, I've found it a little hard to do for John and I's relationship. Sometimes I tell Joe as much as I can in an effort to make sure he is always consenting to being in a V, but I've found oversharing is possible too.

 

[mountaingirl]

Hello mountaingirl,

Wow, you have been through a rough time lately. I'm really sorry about that. For the record, I don't think you "fucked up." Obviously you did some things that you would do differently if you had a time machine -- you wouldn't confide in your one work friend, you wouldn't go to E's party with John in tow, and you wouldn't have sex this time with John. These things could be called mistakes, but mistakes that anyone could easily make, and I think "fuck-up" would be *way* too strong of a word.

I don't know if maybe this might be the time to sit down with Joe and John, and discuss the elephant in the room: namely, that it looks like it is getting closer to the time when you and John might be allowed to have sex with each other, on a regular basis. Like you might ask Joe how long he thinks he will need (until then), and, you might ask yourself how you feel about it, like how long do you think you will need. I think you mentioned in your other threads, that you had some kind of trauma in your past that made sex with John a complicated proposition?

As for your coworkers, you just know that you aren't going to talk to them again, about anything outside of work. You aren't going to go to any more of E's parties. You aren't going to confide in the friend that told E what you said. They are not friends to you anymore. They are not work friends. They are just coworkers. And as for the rumors E spread, there's not much you can do except answer people's questions if they ask. "No, John did not eat me out on the couch." If they don't ask, you just have to write them off as being in E's camp.

If things get too uncomfortable for you at work, you might consider looking for a different employer. Just keep in mind, by all rights it should be E, and the person who blabbed to E, that leaves, not you. So don't leave out of feeling like you did something wrong, because you did nothing wrong. If you have to leave, do it because those two coworkers are making your life Hell ... and you don't deserve to have to work under those conditions. Rather than switch employers, maybe you could get transferred to a different department or something.

The bottom line, is, that you are receiving persecution for being poly. If polyamory was a protected class, you could sue for harassment. Unfortunately, our society is not yet that enlightened, and as a pioneer of the poly lovestyle, you end up lashing yourself to the front of the train. You receive the maximum amount of punishment for making the smallest mistakes. It is part of being poly in today's world. I just want to encourage you to be as strong as you can. Don't let the harassment get to you.

With kudos and sympathy,
Kevin T.

Thanks for the kind words I'm not sure if it's time to talk about John and I having sex just yet... I honestly don't think I'm ready, or maybe Joe not being ready also makes me not ready? More of a "me" reason for not being ready would definitely be past trauma; I still have PTSD episodes and struggle with feeling used/like an object during sex, so I'm VERY good to wait on doing that regularly with another person.
Because of this happening Joe is asking John and I not to be intimate at all for now which is a little frustrating. His stance is "I can't do this again" because he went through a lot of jealousy and anger when John and I had sex before. I was reading a bit about poly "vetoes" and it seems like Joe is trying to be that in my life, and I'm not sure how I feel about it... especially since he's mostly telling John these things (they're pretty close) and not me (I think he just doesn't want to disappoint me, but has no problem telling John what to do--John is big beta vibes). Walking things back that far just doesn't seem like it would solve any problems imo.
As far as work goes, I love it and am not going anywhere. I left school recently, so the concept of "coworkers" is new for me but I will definitely be creating that distance from the people I work with from now on. On the plus side, some of my old friends have been very understanding of my situation and I've found support there which is cool. Also this forum is awesome

 

[kdt26417]

Glad the forum is helping. It sounds like the best thing to do is to keep things as they are. Keep work as it is, keep things as they are with John, and do not have "the sex talk" yet. I hope Joe doesn't tell John to not be intimate with you at all for now, you have already gone through some efforts to get to this point.

 

[AlwaysGrowing]

I honestly think you're making a common newbie mistake - letting your established partner dictate how your new relationship grows.

Does Joe consent to polyamory or not?

Does John consent to Joe making decisions about John's sex life? Because that's what's happening. You and John are letting a third party set the terms instead of figuring out together, like two people in a relationship usually do.

Do you consent to Joe having as much say over your body as you do? Because again... That's essentially the case here. You don't get to decide whether or not to have sex with John, only Joe gets to do that.

I think the only fuck up here is opening up and starting another relationship before you and Joe were actually ready for you to have another relationship. Seems like John has been okay with it because of his (pre existing? Or new?) friendship with Joe. Would you be as comfortable if Joe had a wife having that much input in your relationship?

Obviously, better boundaries are work are necessary, but you've learned that lesson so it's not a fuck up. Just a lesson. I do hope you have an actual friend (not fake, asshole coworker pretending to be a friend) that you can talk to. The folks here are awesome, but it's nice to have irl support too. I personally never hide my relationships at work and have never had an issue. If a coworker accused me of something like that, I would tell them they are being disgusting - an awful host, terrible friend, and all around shit human. Then never talk to them again except about necessary work stuff. Another lesson. Some people just suck. Lol

 

[GalaGirl]

Glad it helps some.

As far as establishing space and privacy, I've found it a little hard to do for John and I's relationship. Sometimes I tell Joe as much as I can in an effort to make sure he is always consenting to being in a V, but I've found oversharing is possible too.

I think on some things you ARE oversharing.

Joe has already given consent to be here in a V. If he's going to withdraw consent, he can speak up. You might actually be triggering him by oversharing TMI details. And could do some detangling.

The Most Skipped Step When Opening a Relationship

You’ve had hundreds of hours of discussions on what your open relationship will look like? Check!

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What's he really got to know to manage his health hygiene? That the grouping has safer sex agreements in place.

What's he really got to know to manage his time? What's going on in the calendar.

Anything past that? Is not necessary.

If it is that YOU need some reassuring? Ask him to reassure you more directly and without the TMI oversharing.

I'm not sure if it's time to talk about John and I having sex just yet... I honestly don't think I'm ready, or maybe Joe not being ready also makes me not ready? More of a "me" reason for not being ready would definitely be past trauma; I still have PTSD episodes and struggle with feeling used/like an object during sex, so I'm VERY good to wait on doing that regularly with another person.

If you aren't ready for regular sex with BF because of past trauma? That's you and BF business. Not really Joe business.

Because of this happening Joe is asking John and I not to be intimate at all for now which is a little frustrating. His stance is "I can't do this again" because he went through a lot of jealousy and anger when John and I had sex before.

Well, Joe can ask. And either or both you and John can say "Well, not doing regular sex this minute. But at some point you just have to assume we ARE sharing regular sex. Call it somewhere between X - Y months from now. Because no. You don't get to say when we do/do not share the actual act of sex, because it's not your business.

I'm willing to help you through whatever emotions, but I'm not willing for you to be the boss of my body. I think you could work on your emotional management around the idea of me having another partner without being the boss of my body."

Cuz honestly, where is surprise? When one agrees to participate in a poly V, one can assume there is probably going to be love and sex share in there somewhere eventually unless it is explicit that it is romance only.

I was reading a bit about poly "vetoes" and it seems like Joe is trying to be that in my life, and I'm not sure how I feel about it... especially since he's mostly telling John these things (they're pretty close) and not me

I would find that weird. Why's your husband telling your BF about when/how BF can have sex with you?

(I think he just doesn't want to disappoint me, but has no problem telling John what to do--John is big beta vibes). Walking things back that far just doesn't seem like it would solve any problems imo.

It doesn't and the sooner you nip all that in the bud the better.

There's two overlapping circles.

In one circle, you + Joe sex stuff.

In the other circle, you + John stuff.

In the overlapping place where it happens in BOTH circles? Lives safer sex agreements for health hygiene. Family planning issues.

In the other places in the circle? It's stuff that is ONLY between the two people. Not really any of the other person's business.

Figure out your personal boundaries.

At the same time? Acknowledge that husband might be going through some grief/loss. If he's had you as the only partner and now he has to share your time and attention? It might be feeling like more work for him to have less. And even though he wants to be here, he might be sad that the "old normal" is gone. It's kinda like breaking up on purpose in order to regroup in a new configuration.

You get the "whee!" of John as a new partner. So you may not feel that sad right now, and it might sneak up on you later. Or you may not experience it the same.

But Joe may be having a sense of "loss." And then with you TMI/oversharing from your own anxiety or whatever? You might not be helping any. Figure out your new personal boundaries with both partners.

And if you don't like them talking to each other about sex with you? Tell then not to compare notes. Basics like sex hygiene agreements is one thing, but telling personal details is another.

As far as work goes, I love it and am not going anywhere. I left school recently, so the concept of "coworkers" is new for me but I will definitely be creating that distance from the people I work with from now on.

Sounds like you have to figure out your personal work boundaries as well. For example, not oversharing personal data. Not being Facebook friends with coworkers.

On the plus side, some of my old friends have been very understanding of my situation and I've found support there which is cool. Also this forum is awesome

Glad you are growing both in person support and online support.

HTH!
Galagirl

 

[Magdlyn]

Hello everyone!

Hi. I want you to know my below advice is meant with all kindness.

I've posted a couple times on here so I'll try to keep the context of my situation brief. I'm in a relatively new poly relationship (less than a year). My husband Joe is still getting used to the idea of me loving another man, John, John and I decided not to have sex so as to keep things moving as slowly as possible for everyone's sake. It's important to add that Joe actually requested that we not have sex.

I skimmed back through your OP from January. You had said you all lived separately, and I don't recall that Joe and you were married then. Has this status changed?

Another change in status: in your OP last January, you said Joe was OK with you and John having sex, and indeed, you and John were taking things to the next level. It would help if you defined "sex." Cuddling is not sex, but making out, and hands and mouths on genitals is sexual behavior. Penis in vagina alone does not define "sex." If you and John have been making out, fondling and getting aroused (maybe even having oral sex) why is this OK, but PIV is not?

It seems very arbitrary and strange (to me) for Joe to be the gatekeeper here, allowing certain activities between 2 other adults, against their wills, and not allowing others. And indeed, we see this "rule" clearly backfired!

While a lot of the initial stages of this relationship were unfolding, we all lived apart and emotions were often running high (as to be expected).

So instead of coming here again and telling other poly people about your problems, you told someone, a colleague, who proved to be untrustworthy.

I confided in a work friend of mine who lived close by, and it turns out she told someone else we work with (we'll call them E) who clearly doesn't have a great view on polyamory.

John and Joe and I went to a party with them one night, and I'm guessing E had heard things about my life from this "friend" of mine, because E started a rumor that John ate me out on the couch... in the middle of the party... which makes literally no sense as we were all 3 together for the entire night.

Just how drunk were you, and the men? What kind of a party was this, that the idea that there could be oral sex going on in the middle of the living room, involving you and either man (or both)? And why would E need to start this rumor? Wouldn't the other party-goers have also noticed oral sex going on in front of their eyes? I mean, it's a pretty obvious situation. lol

I don't remember anything even close to that happening, and neither do John and Joe.

But you were so drunk you may have blacked out?

One positive note: Joe believes wholeheartedly that this didn't happen.

He "believes?" Wasn't he right beside you? It sounds like he trusts you that it didn't happen, not that he observed it didn't happen because HE WAS RIGHT THERE.

John handled telling Joe, so I didn't have to, which was cool.

Why was that cool? What did John tell Joe? You said Joe was right there with you. Something doesn't add up.

E told me he doesn't want John coming to his house again because of this. I cried when he was telling me this, because I was overwhelmed by information I had not heard before. I felt very attacked. Plus I have had a man do things to me while I have been intoxicated that I later didn't remember.

OK, so you were very drunk at E's party, and you have no idea if you were having oral sex with John or not that night. You also have a history of getting drunk and being taken advantage of.

He literally said "clean yourself up, you're embarrassing yourself."

Well, whether you had oral sex with either guy, it could be seen as an embarrassment to everyone there, if the party was not an orgy, that you got drunk and had sex on the couch in front of everyone. Again I don't see why E would "start a rumor," when there were other witnesses. Please clarify.

He made it clear that he thinks I cheated on Joe with John, and that he thinks I am less than garbage for that, and that I am pretending to not remember it happening.

Well, OK. He doesn't understand poly. But that doesn't mean he needs to start a rumor about you, drunk, having sex (with anyone) in his living room at a party.

I have tried not to let this get to me, because, whatever, this guy doesn't pay my bills. Who cares what he thinks? No one believes him anyway, since it's so ridiculous.

...

But I will admit that this shit STUNG--, especially with how hard the past year has been for all 3 of us.

Exactly how hard has it been? The party and E's so-called rumor are a red herring. The real problem is your MFM V.

I let this shit get to me. I partly blame myself for confiding in someone I clearly didn't know enough, and for making the mistake of thinking I was around the type of people that would be okay with me bringing my husband and my boyfriend to a party (even if I just introduced John as my friend).

I have to see E and the fake friend at work and it's been rather difficult. My sense of self-worth is way down.

Your sense of self-worth comes from respecting yourself enough to not get so drunk at a party you don't actually remember if you had public sex or not. No?

Yesterday John and I had a great day together. I was feeling very emotional, one thing led to another and we had sex.

So this time you were sober, but went against Joe's rules anyway! Joe seems to be in charge of you and "beta" John... which is kind of icky, imo. You and John got tired of holding off from PIV, since it's been many months, close to a year, since you've been having outercourse, and the temptation just got to be too much.

I immediately told Joe about it. THAT was hard, especially since we had just had a conversation about focusing on us.

Joe told you he wanted you to focus on him, not John. Again, what changed? Are you married to Joe now, and living with him? Does John live with you too? How long will these relationships be in limbo? Why is it OK for Joe to set the rules for 2 other adults to follow? I am so confused. Why is he the boss of you and John, seemingly against your wills?

I am just laying on the self-hatred right now. Joe is 'fine' with everything.

Obviously, he is not "fine." He set rules for you and John, who seem to have lower status and lesser rights than him. You 2 broke his rules. And now YOU hate YOURSELF for stepping out of your lane! This does not sound healthy. Please explain.

He was initially very angry and then apprehensive of all the feelings of jealousy, rage, etc. that might accompany this incident.

He was angry to the point of RAGE? Rage "might" be involved? Rage is pretty obvious.

Things are a lot better today. John and Joe are hanging out together soon, so I imagine they'll sort whatever they need to sort out regardless.

You are not the property of either man, who have the right to sort our your fate. You don't seem to get this.

I would like to add that I take full responsibility for my actions, so please no "wtf is wrong with you" comments. I know I fucked up.

It sounds like you AND JOHN broke a rule that Joe has somehow imposed on both of you. You alone did not fuck up by having sex. You may have fucked up by allowing Joe to be in charge of you.

I'm wondering what other poly people do to be kind to themselves if treated this way, and if anyone has advice on handling mistakes when boundaries were established regarding what can be done with certain partners.

And further in the thread, I see you said that Joe has told you (and John) that you are not "allowed" to be intimate at all for the time being, seemingly to punish you for losing your heads and fucking. Why is this OK? Why are you willing to hate yourself and allow this guy to push you around? You mentioned an elephant in the room in your OP in your January post. I think there's whole herd of elephants at this point.

Never mind E and his "rumors." Your problem lies at home.

 

[Magdlyn]

I'm not sure if it's time to talk about John and me having sex just yet...

OK, moving on from the party/oral sex red herring...

I honestly don't think I'm ready, or maybe Joe not being ready also makes me not ready.

You've been loving John romantically since before January, and Joe has been controlling your ability to act on your desires with John all along. I believe that whether you and John have "sex" (PIV), should be up to the two of you. Joe doesn't need to know what you 2 get up to when he's not there. He knows you two WANT TO have sex. Indeed, you already have, more than once, breaking Joe's imposed "rules." I think it's time for Joe to face his jealousy and learn to do anger management (this rage you speak of). If he has trouble with anger management, are you even safe with him?

Why did you marry him this year?

More of a "me" reason for not being ready would definitely be past trauma; I still have PTSD episodes and struggle with feeling used/like an object during sex, so I'm VERY good to wait on doing that regularly with another person.

Surely after having had months/a year or more of being very good friends with John, you should know he's not using you for sex?

Because of this happening, Joe is asking John and me not to be intimate at all for now, which is a little frustrating. His stance is "I can't do this again" because he went through a lot of jealousy and anger when John and I had sex before.

He can learn to deal with his own emotional management. It's never a good idea to tailor how you want to live merely to prevent someone else from learning how to deal with their emotions. Truth is truth. You and John desire each other. That is obvious and in Joe's face. He's being possessive and treating YOU AS HIS POSSESSION. You are an object to him. Your biggest fear, right there.

Are you safe?

I was reading a bit about poly "vetoes" and it seems like Joe is trying to be that in my life, and I'm not sure how I feel about it.

So think about it more. How do you feel about being under Joe's authority? He's not your father or your boss. Husbands and wives in our culture today are free and equal human beings.

He's mostly telling John these things, and not me. I think he just doesn't want to disappoint me, but has no problem telling John what to do. John has big beta vibes.

The men are deciding what their little woman can do! And Joe is the alpha and also tells John what to do? How is this fun?

Walking things back that far just doesn't seem like it would solve any problems, imo.

No. It would not. Tell him that and don't let him force or cajole you into doing or not doing what you want. It's been a year. How long will you wait to live as your authentic self? Why are you putting off these choices?

As far as work goes, I love it and am not going anywhere. I left school recently.

So are you very young, like barely in your 20s? You've had little dating experience, you've been sexually assaulted while black-out drunk, you're under the control of an "alpha" and a "beta" male, and you're afraid of the alpha's rage? How is any of this healthy?

On the plus side, some of my old friends have been very understanding of my situation and I've found support there, which is cool. Also this forum is awesome.

 

[mountaingirl]

OK, moving on from the party/oral sex red herring...

You've been loving John romantically since before January, and Joe has been controlling your ability to act on your desires with John all along. I believe that whether you and John have "sex" (PIV), should be up to the two of you. Joe doesn't need to know what you 2 get up to when he's not there. He knows you two WANT TO have sex. Indeed, you already have, more than once, breaking Joe's imposed "rules." I think it's time for Joe to face his jealousy and learn to do anger management (this rage you speak of). If he has trouble with anger management, are you even safe with him?

Why did you marry him this year?

Surely after having had months/a year or more of being very good friends with John, you should know he's not using you for sex?

He can learn to deal with his own emotional management. It's never a good idea to tailor how you want to live merely to prevent someone else from learning how to deal with their emotions. Truth is truth. You and John desire each other. That is obvious and in Joe's face. He's being possessive and treating YOU AS HIS POSSESSION. You are an object to him. Your biggest fear, right there.

Are you safe?

So think about it more. How do you feel about being under Joe's authority? He's not your father or your boss. Husbands and wives in our culture today are free and equal human beings.

The men are deciding what their little woman can do! And Joe is the alpha and also tells John what to do? How is this fun?

No. It would not. Tell him that and don't let him force or cajole you into doing or not doing what you want. It's been a year. How long will you wait to live as your authentic self? Why are you putting off these choices?

So are you very young, like barely in your 20s? You've had little dating experience, you've been sexually assaulted while black-out drunk, you're under the control of an "alpha" and a "beta" male, and you're afraid of the alpha's rage? How is any of this healthy?

Yes I'm safe! Just to address that. I have never felt unsafe around either of these men, and anything traumatic happened to me before meeting them. Joe and I never planned on getting legally married, but had been engaged for a couple years before getting married this year. We officially got married because we were thinking of buying a house together + wanted the excuse of covid to elope without hurting our family's feelings. I am somewhat annoyed that I am limited by Joe's emotions, especially when I have been honest this entire time... however I am married. I love Joe very much and I want to stay with him. I would like to make this work. He has made it clear that I am free to do what I want, I just can't expect him to be okay with it and after this happened he was unsure if he could keep such a committed relationship with me if it means being hurt...we'er working on it. I'm not sure if he knows poly is for him, and I'm willing to wait until he knows that. I am okay with the reality of John and I remaining friends if that's how it has to stay for Joe and I to be happy together. That's why I've been okay with keeping things PG w John. As far as "rage" goes, yes he has been angry, with himself, with me, with John, at different times. Anger is a human emotion, perhaps rage was too strong a word? He is not a loose cannon. I do see where you're coming from though, and thanks for being concerned with my safety. Also I'm older than barely in my 20s, just got out of grad school, and I do have an extensive dating history. Hope this clears that up.

 

[mountaingirl]

Hi. I want you to know my below advice is meant with all kindness.

I skimmed back through your OP from January. You had said you all lived separately, and I don't recall that Joe and you were married then. Has this status changed?

Another change in status: in your OP last January, you said Joe was OK with you and John having sex, and indeed, you and John were taking things to the next level. It would help if you defined "sex." Cuddling is not sex, but making out, and hands and mouths on genitals is sexual behavior. Penis in vagina alone does not define "sex." If you and John have been making out, fondling and getting aroused (maybe even having oral sex) why is this OK, but PIV is not?

It seems very arbitrary and strange (to me) for Joe to be the gatekeeper here, allowing certain activities between 2 other adults, against their wills, and not allowing others. And indeed, we see this "rule" clearly backfired!

So instead of coming here again and telling other poly people about your problems, you told someone, a colleague, who proved to be untrustworthy.



Just how drunk were you, and the men? What kind of a party was this, that the idea that there could be oral sex going on in the middle of the living room, involving you and either man (or both)? And why would E need to start this rumor? Wouldn't the other party-goers have also noticed oral sex going on in front of their eyes? I mean, it's a pretty obvious situation. lol

But you were so drunk you may have blacked out?

He "believes?" Wasn't he right beside you? It sounds like he trusts you that it didn't happen, not that he observed it didn't happen because HE WAS RIGHT THERE.

Why was that cool? What did John tell Joe? You said Joe was right there with you. Something doesn't add up.

OK, so you were very drunk at E's party, and you have no idea if you were having oral sex with John or not that night. You also have a history of getting drunk and being taken advantage of.

Well, whether you had oral sex with either guy, it could be seen as an embarrassment to everyone there, if the party was not an orgy, that you got drunk and had sex on the couch in front of everyone. Again I don't see why E would "start a rumor," when there were other witnesses. Please clarify.

Well, OK. He doesn't understand poly. But that doesn't mean he needs to start a rumor about you, drunk, having sex (with anyone) in his living room at a party.

...

Exactly how hard has it been? The party and E's so-called rumor are a red herring. The real problem is your MFM V.



Your sense of self-worth comes from respecting yourself enough to not get so drunk at a party you don't actually remember if you had public sex or not. No?

So this time you were sober, but went against Joe's rules anyway! Joe seems to be in charge of you and "beta" John... which is kind of icky, imo. You and John got tired of holding off from PIV, since it's been many months, close to a year, since you've been having outercourse, and the temptation just got to be too much.

Joe told you he wanted you to focus on him, not John. Again, what changed? Are you married to Joe now, and living with him? Does John live with you too? How long will these relationships be in limbo? Why is it OK for Joe to set the rules for 2 other adults to follow? I am so confused. Why is he the boss of you and John, seemingly against your wills?

Obviously, he is not "fine." He set rules for you and John, who seem to have lower status and lesser rights than him. You 2 broke his rules. And now YOU hate YOURSELF for stepping out of your lane! This does not sound healthy. Please explain.

He was angry to the point of RAGE? Rage "might" be involved? Rage is pretty obvious.

You are not the property of either man, who have the right to sort our your fate. You don't seem to get this.

It sounds like you AND JOHN broke a rule that Joe has somehow imposed on both of you. You alone did not fuck up by having sex. You may have fucked up by allowing Joe to be in charge of you.

And further in the thread, I see you said that Joe has told you (and John) that you are not "allowed" to be intimate at all for the time being, seemingly to punish you for losing your heads and fucking. Why is this OK? Why are you willing to hate yourself and allow this guy to push you around? You mentioned an elephant in the room in your OP in your January post. I think there's whole herd of elephants at this point.

Never mind E and his "rumors." Your problem lies at home.

As far as "telling" Joe, John told him about E starting this rumor, not about it not being true so I wouldn't have to recount it since it upset me and made me feel gross and embarrassed... I said I appreciated that Joe "believed" me because after having that interaction with E I didn't feel like anyone believed me, and it would have been horrible if Joe didn't back me up on that. So maybe I am appreciating something that all partners should do, but I also don't want to take his being on my team for granted. I didn't black out, I remember being with Joe and John the entire night which is why I was so confused. It was a normal party. Because of a past experience in which I was touched while I was too drunk to consent, a part of me felt very upset by this rumor. It was a vulnerable moment for me, so yes I was probably weak and looked to John and Joe for help at that time. Maybe I still have the capacity to be shocked that people can be so nasty, so I didn't handle the situation as sternly as I should have. It meant a lot to me that they were there for me, especially when a friend I confided in betrayed my trust.
Your comment about both me and John making a mistake by having sex + letting Joe be in charge is very true. Joe has stressed that it is not all my fault that it happened, which is why John and him have talked as well. John and I should have known that it wouldn't work, that is probably a better example of me fucking up than trying to do what I want with my body, so this is a fair point.
I honestly don't care what is "icky" to you.... I only included that John has a beta personality because it is insightful to who he is as a person. He hates confrontation and I think that's important.
Also for defining sex, we just made out from March until this happened. And that was honestly fine with me, which I think I have expressed in other posts. Sex really isn't worth making people super upset over and it is SUCH a small part of my relationships with both of these people, so the fact that I have had to explain it so f*cking much is VERY frustrating for me. It makes sex between us seem more like checking a box than a close, intimate act.
Thanks for your comments and for being concerned about my safety. I do agree that I have put off making choices. I am a little tired... I have felt like all of us are holding each other at this precipice for awhile now. Neither John or I want to lose Joe, and Joe doesn't want to lose us, and I don't want to lose them! These are literally my best friends. Everyone has made compromises at different times, and everyone has made mistakes. I have just been keeping as honest throughout this entire process while still listening to others and taking their feelings into consideration. Hurting either of these people hurts me as well... so I would say my self worth is more tied into how good of a friend and partner I am instead of not getting too drunk at a party. I find it overwhelming that all the choices are mine at all times, like both of them have just been waiting for me to decide wtf is going on. That's a lot of pressure and a lot of responsibility for both of these people's feelings. As far as not coming on here and telling other poly people my problems... we honestly didn't have any (my "friend" was probably telling E about issues we had back in Feb when I first had sex with John, since I hadn't confided in her for months). Maybe it was because I was abiding by Joe's rules, which may seem icky to you, but I have a very busy life with my career and family, other friends etc. so it was nice to not have to make sweeping decisions for a bit while we handled moving and actually living together for the first time in a while, starting a new career, etc.

 

[mountaingirl]

Glad it helps some.



I think on some things you ARE oversharing.

Joe has already given consent to be here in a V. If he's going to withdraw consent, he can speak up. You might actually be triggering him by oversharing TMI details. And could do some detangling.

The Most Skipped Step When Opening a Relationship

You’ve had hundreds of hours of discussions on what your open relationship will look like? Check!

medium.com

What's he really got to know to manage his health hygiene? That the grouping has safer sex agreements in place.

What's he really got to know to manage his time? What's going on in the calendar.

Anything past that? Is not necessary.

If it is that YOU need some reassuring? Ask him to reassure you more directly and without the TMI oversharing.



If you aren't ready for regular sex with BF because of past trauma? That's you and BF business. Not really Joe business.



Well, Joe can ask. And either or both you and John can say "Well, not doing regular sex this minute. But at some point you just have to assume we ARE sharing regular sex. Call it somewhere between X - Y months from now. Because no. You don't get to say when we do/do not share the actual act of sex, because it's not your business.

I'm willing to help you through whatever emotions, but I'm not willing for you to be the boss of my body. I think you could work on your emotional management around the idea of me having another partner without being the boss of my body."

Cuz honestly, where is surprise? When one agrees to participate in a poly V, one can assume there is probably going to be love and sex share in there somewhere eventually unless it is explicit that it is romance only.



I would find that weird. Why's your husband telling your BF about when/how BF can have sex with you?



It doesn't and the sooner you nip all that in the bud the better.

There's two overlapping circles.

In one circle, you + Joe sex stuff.

In the other circle, you + John stuff.

In the overlapping place where it happens in BOTH circles? Lives safer sex agreements for health hygiene. Family planning issues.

In the other places in the circle? It's stuff that is ONLY between the two people. Not really any of the other person's business.

Figure out your personal boundaries.

At the same time? Acknowledge that husband might be going through some grief/loss. If he's had you as the only partner and now he has to share your time and attention? It might be feeling like more work for him to have less. And even though he wants to be here, he might be sad that the "old normal" is gone. It's kinda like breaking up on purpose in order to regroup in a new configuration.

You get the "whee!" of John as a new partner. So you may not feel that sad right now, and it might sneak up on you later. Or you may not experience it the same.

But Joe may be having a sense of "loss." And then with you TMI/oversharing from your own anxiety or whatever? You might not be helping any. Figure out your new personal boundaries with both partners.

And if you don't like them talking to each other about sex with you? Tell then not to compare notes. Basics like sex hygiene agreements is one thing, but telling personal details is another.



Sounds like you have to figure out your personal work boundaries as well. For example, not oversharing personal data. Not being Facebook friends with coworkers.



Glad you are growing both in person support and online support.

HTH!
Galagirl

The disentanglement article really helpful! Joe and I have been the main confidant in each others lives for awhile now, and I think some of the issues we have had are codependent traits that the new poly dynamic has been blamed for. He has made comments that he doesn't really care that John and I hang out, but that it's time he could be spending with me and doesn't get to which upsets him. I totally relate and would probably feel the same in his shoes, but a lot of his jealousy seems to stem from moments he wishes were between me and him and not me and John (of course we have those moments all the time but he wants all of them? which is definitely codependent) instead of actually being upset about the feelings john and I share. I like your suggestion of telling Joe we're not having sex regularly right now, but to expect it to happen. Joe is under the impression that flood gates will open whenever he gives the go ahead, which isn't true but I can see where his anxieties come from. Joe and I both experienced grief/loss when John and I hooked up the first time.. It seemed like disentanglement; Joe said he was going to "focus on himself" which is really positive! But in light of what was going on, I took it personally and felt as if I was losing him. I think he is grieving again though, since John and I agreed with his request to not have sex, we essentially put the bandaid back on. Because I have been sharing so much, Joe has seen a space to impose what he thinks is best in the situation. I honestly think he just wants to help.... I was really upset when John and I hooked up and was questioning my self worth. He's not a manipulative person, so while I think his "solution" of John and I not being intimate for awhile is something that will make him feel better, he also hopes it will keep me from doing something that makes me feel bad and help John and I regain some sense of normalcy. Because all of us have been so close for so long, it has been hard to establish those separate circles for each relationship, but sex with me being talked about while I'm not there has definitely not helped me feel less like an object, even if I know these two respect me. John has recently said that he thinks it's not really Joe's business when we have sex, but that feels so much like betrayal so I think just a heads up of "hey this may or may not be happening" would make me feel better. I also think John and I have been willfully naïve about what rules we can be expected to follow and how having sex has changed the dynamic of our relationship; neither one of us wants to disappoint Joe. I think I need to put my foot down/rip off the band aid (with love of course) because John will not... and honestly it's not his job to since Joe and I are the ones that are married. Once he sees life between him and I and between all of us is pretty much the same, his anxieties will go away. Thanks for the support

 

[mountaingirl]

I honestly think you're making a common newbie mistake - letting your established partner dictate how your new relationship grows.

Does Joe consent to polyamory or not?

Does John consent to Joe making decisions about John's sex life? Because that's what's happening. You and John are letting a third party set the terms instead of figuring out together, like two people in a relationship usually do.

Do you consent to Joe having as much say over your body as you do? Because again... That's essentially the case here. You don't get to decide whether or not to have sex with John, only Joe gets to do that.

I think the only fuck up here is opening up and starting another relationship before you and Joe were actually ready for you to have another relationship. Seems like John has been okay with it because of his (pre existing? Or new?) friendship with Joe. Would you be as comfortable if Joe had a wife having that much input in your relationship?

Obviously, better boundaries are work are necessary, but you've learned that lesson so it's not a fuck up. Just a lesson. I do hope you have an actual friend (not fake, asshole coworker pretending to be a friend) that you can talk to. The folks here are awesome, but it's nice to have irl support too. I personally never hide my relationships at work and have never had an issue. If a coworker accused me of something like that, I would tell them they are being disgusting - an awful host, terrible friend, and all around shit human. Then never talk to them again except about necessary work stuff. Another lesson. Some people just suck. Lol

Was working my way backwards through the posts but wish I had seen this earlier! Thanks for the insight:
"Would you be as comfortable if Joe had a wife having that much input in your relationship?"
NO! I definitely wouldn't. We all started hanging out around the same time (~3 mo window), so I think John has seen himself as interloping Joe and I's relationship and has stepped back to let us figure things out between us two, + yeah the friendship between them allows enough communication that I think John feels comfortable accommodating Joe's feelings. Like I have mentioned, John doesn't like confrontation and none of us are eager to upset each other.
I don't think Joe sees this as him trying to have control over my body... which, especially in light of his new request that John and I not be intimate at all seems like the case to me. Just because his intention isn't to control me doesn't necessarily mean that's not what's happening; + I can't continue trying to follow these rules that are essentially unrealistic. Joe sees it as disrespect that John and I hooked up this time and I don't really know how to convince him otherwise, but working thru that currently.
I think I mentioned this in response to someone else's post, but I was disappointed in my handling of the situation w my shitty coworker... I also despise confrontation and was surprised by how gross E was being, but I have started completely disregarding him at work and that's been going well. I wish I could be open about my relationships at work. Just going to this party with both of them felt like an accomplishment in itself, but that won't be happening again lol.

 

[GalaGirl]

Could you please be willing to hit the return key to break up paragraphs? It would help with readability.

I think some of the issues we have had are codependent traits that the new poly dynamic has been blamed for.

Well, poly has a way of shining a light on things.

You sound like you are going from a codependent two to a codependent three if you don't nip in bud. Plus... all three are like big anxiety balls. Is that true?

I'm not trying to be mean here but I'll be honest. Just reading your post made me think "Ugh. No emotional SPACE here! Where are personal boundaries?" Like everyone is all up in everyone else's emotions and pow! Anxiety ball reaction chain.

I don't think Joe sees this as him trying to have control over my body... which, especially in light of his new request that John and I not be intimate at all seems like the case to me. Just because his intention isn't to control me doesn't necessarily mean that's not what's happening; + I can't continue trying to follow these rules that are essentially unrealistic.

He made a request. What stopped you from saying "No, thank you. I won't be doing that. I do not agree."

These are not "rules" that Joe makes for the whole household. When you agree? They become agreements. And if you are just saying whatever in the moment to escape your own anxiety or his rather than actually thinking on the request?

You aren't making agreements in good faith. If you later regret or resent your choice, don't aim it at Joe like he's Mr. Bossy Rule Maker trying to control you.

You could have said "No, thanks. I do not agree to that" from the start.

Or you could say now "Heads up. In thinking more/after living with it a bit, I have realized I cannot actually keep this agreement as is. It is not reasonable/realistic. Can we renegotiate?"

Joe sees it as disrespect that John and I hooked up this time and I don't really know how to convince him otherwise, but working thru that currently.

Joe thinks it is disrespectful behavior towards him when you share sex with your other partner John in this poly V?

Or Joe thinks that it is disrespectful behavior when you drop emotional bombs from the sky and disturb his peace by oversharing TMI details that aren't really his business anyway and set his anxiety ball wobbling?

I think I need to put my foot down/rip off the band aid (with love of course) because John will not... and honestly it's not his job to since Joe and I are the ones that are married. Once he sees life between him and I and between all of us is pretty much the same, his anxieties will go away.

Sounds like you are able to see better personal boundaries are needed here. And you are tired of the "anxiety chain reaction thing."

How about everyone being ok in their own skin, being polite to each other, and living normal life? Cuz it if this doesn't pan out? Fine. People break up and move out. Which would be sad. But it's just more ordinary living isn't it? Happens all the time all around even with non poly people. Some things pan out and some things do not.

Everyone sounds like the are constantly "on the look out" because they might make X or Y feel whatever and/or because they are trying to police the world so they themselves don't get anxious. But the policing makes them feel anxious. So it's like a circle trap or an upward spiral of everything being bigger than it really is because ANXIETY MAGNIFYING GLASS!

Whether sunny days or rainy clouds, feelings will pass. Then some new feelings will bubble up. So why are people here making a big deal about feelings when this relatively new V is going through newbie growing pains? Like... isn't it just normal to have some of that?

Because all of us have been so close for so long, it has been hard to establish those separate circles for each relationship.

It is possible to be close with people. And say "No, thanks" when appropriate and keep personal boundaries. My best friend and I are close. We do not wear each other's underpants or use each other's toothbrushes.

Setting personal boundaries becomes easier with practice. So practice. Even if hard. So you get better at it and so things can get better here.

John has recently said that he thinks it's not really Joe's business when we have sex, but that feels so much like betrayal so I think just a heads up of "hey this may or may not be happening" would make me feel better.

Why do you think if (you and John) start keeping some privacy in that dyad it is a betrayal of Joe? Is that your codependancy talking or actual betrayal?

Don't (you and Joe) keep privacy on that side of the coin? Are you obligated to get John's permission to share sex? Or have to report to John every time you do?

All this sex stuff -- could just STOP. Reasonable and rational things like safer sex agreements? Ok. Being all up in each others private biz? NO. Firm up your boundaries.

Rip off the bandaid. And ask them to hold YOU accountable too if you start going sloppy boundaries again. Could tell both partners something like....

"Thank you for your help and support recently. Now that I'm calmer from that whole E. episode, I've realized I have some sloppy personal boundaries. I plan to work on it and seek a counselor for my personal issues with setting boundaries and codependency.​

​

I have two partners that I live with. We all met about the same time. This is a working toward co-primary V. I share love with both. I've shared sex with both. I plan to keep on doing both those things with each of you, but I think each dyad needs some privacy and we all would benefit from less enmeshment and better personal boundaries.​

​

I will not be telling one if/when I shared sex with the other.​

• I don't tell Joe I shared sex with John.
• I don't tell John I shared sex with Joe.

Just assume I share sex with both since this is a V.​

​

Neither one talks to the other about me sexually like comparing notes without my consent.​

• It makes me feel objectified and not respected.

​

I plan on using safer sex practices and I'm willing to talk about that with both of you because hygiene for all is important.​

​

But from this point forward? I plan on being more up front and honest. Including saying things like....​

• "No. This is too much, TMI, not appropriate."
• "No, thank you. I won't be doing that."
• "I need more time to think on that. I cannot answer right this minute."

​

I would like the same honesty back. If I want to stay in my own lane more, then I need to know when I crossed over into your lane.​

​

Each person is responsible for their own thoughts and their own emotional management. It doesn't mean I don't care about you, but I can't go around dealing with my own problems, AND managing each of yours. Reasonable and rational requests for my help is one thing. Me being in charge of the whole poly group all the time is another."​

And let the chips fall where they may.

It's not going to be a healthy poly V if you do whatever Joe asks (even if not appropriate) just because you worry he's gonna go through some feeling sad times as this shakes out and transitions into "the new normal." Or he decides to leave if he discovers being in a Poly V is not his cup of tea.

Is that why you've been pussyfooting and not really keeping strong boundaries? I'm just guessing. I might guess wrong.

Galagirl