Polyamory and Christianity

[Magdlyn]

...I also think celibacy/abstinence can result in sexual energy finding its way into other expressions. Furthermore, the ability to resist sexual desire makes it easier to choose to decline the sexual opportunities that present themselves if they're not really what you want...

How's that been working for the Catholic Church lately? I was talking to an ex-Catholic lately, who was raised in the Church and was close with several priests and ex-priests. He told me a question priests often ask each other is, "When did you receive 'the Gift?' " The Gift being having been raped by a priest as a young boy. It's that common, it's just assumed to have happened to just about every seminarian and priest, who then pass the Gift on down the line.

 

[jasminegld]

I find it interesting to discuss these ideas but I would like to note that I want to keep it academic. I don't want to get caught in a trap of being asked to take sides in a trial of Christianity or polyamory. ...I'm still trying to figure all this out for myself ...

I'm glad you said this. I remember when I first got serious about trying to figure it all out for myself, and I remember how huge these questions felt to me at that time. It doesn't feel that way to me anymore because I've wrestled through them so many times... and I forget in these conversations. I need to be reminded.

However, I'm sure a lot of polyamorous people would disagree with the Christian approach to sexuality as a diversion from higher spirituality.

Christians approach sexuality in a variety of ways. Sexuality as a "diversion from higher spirituality" is only one of those ways. Sexuality as an integral part of our authentic selves is completely in keeping with Scriptural teachings that God created humankind in God's own image and that we are commanded to love and honor ourselves.

So yes, poly folk often disagree with "sex as diversion" teachings/traditions/interpretations that are associated with some Christian traditions. Meanwhile, "sex as integral" Christian teachings/traditions/interpretations are, unfortunately, less well known. Nevertheless, these teachings/traditions/interpretations do exist. Polyamory and Christianity are compatible. No one has to give up one in order to have the other.


Religious Declaration on Sexual Morality, Justice, and Healing
http://www.religiousinstitute.org/religious-declaration-on-sexual-morality-justice-and-healing

Jasmine

 

[serialmonogamist]

Christians approach sexuality in a variety of ways. Sexuality as a "diversion from higher spirituality" is only one of those ways. Sexuality as an integral part of our authentic selves is completely in keeping with Scriptural teachings that God created humankind in God's own image and that we are commanded to love and honor ourselves.

Yes, I see that sex is also valued as a positive part of incarnation in the creation. I think it is like the whole idea of Lucifer as a fallen angel, i.e. that good things can get perverted to become evil depending on the intent and manner in which they are used. So while sex may be positive in Christianity, just as food may be, gluttony would be a sin and fasting would be regarded as having spiritual value. Starving oneself to death wouldn't be regarded as virtuous, but the temporary diversion away from the flesh toward spirit is considered positive. That would be a very different value than hedonism, for example, which some polyamorists might value more than Christianity in their regard to sex and sexuality. I DO think Christian polyamory is possible but I don't think ALL polyamory would be Christian just because it's polyamory. Does that make sense? I think you can still distinguish different perspectives of different issues and that's just diversity within polyamory - to be expected, no?

How's that been working for the Catholic Church lately? I was talking to an ex-Catholic lately, who was raised in the Church and was close with several priests and ex-priests. He told me a question priests often ask each other is, "When did you receive 'the Gift?' " The Gift being having been raped by a priest as a young boy. It's that common, it's just assumed to have happened to just about every seminarian and priest, who then pass the Gift on down the line.

This is completely unrelated to celibacy, imo. When people say that this activity is caused by celibacy, why wouldn't the result be heterosexual rape or simply affairs with adults? It sounds more like pedophiles were using the Catholic belief in forgiveness and redemption to get in positions of access to their fetish.

People who truly believe in celibacy tend to value it as a spiritual orientation toward sexual energy. They want to express their sexual energy in non-sexual ways. You could be heterosexual and I don't think your celibacy would stimulate homosexual or pedophilic desires unless those were already latent in your sexuality and you started subconsciously thinking you had more sexual access by choosing that route instead of others. Arguing that celibacy encourages pedophilia is practically the same as saying that you could convert homosexual pedophiles to heterosexuality by providing them with ready sexual access to adult women.

 

[Magdlyn]

serial, you constantly misunderstand and misconstrue my posts.

I do not say celibacy encourages pedophilia in general. I referred specifically to the Catholic Church, where institutionalized "celibacy" has worked as a cover for condoned pedophila for hundreds of years.

Paul's end times predictions and recommendations on how to live til the Kingdom came has backfired in a most tragic and damaging way. While of course there are kind and truly spiritual celibates in the Church, the perverts/criminals are so common as to be casually accepted and even encouraged by the most high cleric, the pope himself.

Celibacy is a dangerous concept. It's not nice to fool Mother Nature. Also, priests do rape girls and female adult parishioners as well.

 

[jasminegld]

I DO think Christian polyamory is possible but I don't think ALL polyamory would be Christian just because it's polyamory. Does that make sense?

Of course. Freedom of religion. Diversity.

You could be heterosexual and I don't think your celibacy would stimulate homosexual or pedophilic desires

Evidence shows otherwise. I learned in a sociology class of heterosexual men who were confined in all male populations (prisons, naval vessels, military deployments) who engaged in same sex behavior for the purpose of sexual release because that was the only option available to them. These men did not identify themselves as either gay or bisexual. They all returned to completely heterosexual lives as soon as they left the all-male environments and had access to wives, girlfriends, and female dating partners. They simply had no other options during that period of time. All these men were supposed to be celibate at the command of other people; not by their own choice.

To me, this says that celibacy MUST be freely chosen to have positive value without unintended consequences.

I disagree with Magdlyn about the Pope. It's much more complicated than that description. And the Pope is not here to defend himself.

I don't like this conversation about "those other people" who aren't here to defend themselves. I wish we'd talk about ourselves and our own issues, instead of critiqueing other people.

Jasmine

 

[serialmonogamist]

serial, you constantly misunderstand and misconstrue my posts.

I do not say celibacy encourages pedophilia in general. I referred specifically to the Catholic Church, where institutionalized "celibacy" has worked as a cover for condoned pedophila for hundreds of years.

Sorry, this was something I have read/heard elsewhere and it just sounded like you were implying the same thing. I'm not yet completely convinced that all the accusations regarding the Catholic church are not attempts to demonize the church and squeeze money out of it. Of course I wouldn't want to disrespect true victims in any way. It's just that when it seemed like it was about getting the church as an institution to take responsibility, that would provide access to the funds of a wealthy global organization, which would be a motive for generating false claims. I'm not defending the church, per se, only I'm generally suspicious of claims that are potentially lucrative.

Celibacy is a dangerous concept. It's not nice to fool Mother Nature. Also, priests do rape girls and female adult parishioners as well.

It's not like you can starve from avoiding sex the way you can if you don't eat for a long time.

Evidence shows otherwise. I learned in a sociology class of heterosexual men who were confined in all male populations (prisons, naval vessels, military deployments) who engaged in same sex behavior for the purpose of sexual release because that was the only option available to them. These men did not identify themselves as either gay or bisexual. They all returned to completely heterosexual lives as soon as they left the all-male environments and had access to wives, girlfriends, and female dating partners. They simply had no other options during that period of time. All these men were supposed to be celibate at the command of other people; not by their own choice.

Why not just masturbate if you don't want to have sexual contact with other men?

To me, this says that celibacy MUST be freely chosen to have positive value without unintended consequences.

Since sexual intercourse requires consent to be legal and ethical, celibacy is sometimes the only option available.

I disagree with Magdlyn about the Pope. It's much more complicated than that description. And the Pope is not here to defend himself.

I don't like this conversation about "those other people" who aren't here to defend themselves. I wish we'd talk about ourselves and our own issues, instead of critiqueing other people.

well said. It's not about defending the guilty but resisting making assumption on the basis of hearsay.

 

[Magdlyn]

Wow.

 

[nycindie]

I once dated an ex-seminary student who had studied to become a Catholic priest. He wanted to write about his experiences, don't know if he ever did. Anyway, he told me that just about every night he and his fellow novitiates were either up on the roof smoking pot or visiting their secret girlfriends in the nearby town.

Just thought I'd add my useless two cents about priests and celibacy, though it seems this thread has gone wa-a-a-ay off-topic.

 

[Magdlyn]

The ex-Catholic guy I've been talking to said seminaries he's heard about are hotbeds of gay sex.

So, celibacy for priests? Not happening. Who are they to tell us how to run our sex lives? I've asked that question all my life, and my answer is, they have no place advising people on sex.

 

[sage]

OK, this is way off the current topic but is pertinent to the thread (I suppose)so I am posting it here.

At the beginning of this year I started doing AA. This involves a 12 step programme where you search out a relationship with "A God of your understanding'. I have searched all my life for such a relationship through both christianity and more new age philosophies but never found it to the extent I have through AA.

The further I get into the programme the more difficulty I seem to have accepting being in a committed relationship with someone polyamorous. My daughter, who is very Christian, tells me this is because the concept of polyamory is not of God (her God, anyway). A God of my understanding is impossible to explain, but does not have such prejudices. He does however want me to be happy, and I'm wondering if the way this is manifesting is an indication that this relationship is perhaps not the best platform for my peace and happiness moving forward.

I have these thoughts on one hand, and on the other, I think that this is just me battling my ego. I pray about it every day but would be grateful for your thoughts.

Thanks.

 

[Magdlyn]

Your god is a "he?" Why? Imagine her as a she and see if it helps.

 

[sage]

He is a he because I do look on him as a kind of father figure and it kind of comes naturally, but it could just as easily be a her and a mother figure.

Can I just add that part of the problem could also be that my partner has zero interest in anything spiritual? He is highly intelligent and emotionally intelligent, but if something can't be proved, he has no interest in thinking about it.

 

[Magdlyn]

My dad has Aspergers and was always kind of distant, so when I was asked to think of god as a father, it never felt all that comforting.

 

[Quath]

The celibacy thing reminds me of this Bible passage:
1 Timothy 3:2 — “A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behavior, given to hospitality, apt to teach.”

From what I heard, the Catholic Church did not want priests to marry because of inheritance issues if they had a wife. I have not verified that so that it for what it is worth.

I know a Catholic priest can have a wife if he first marries as a Protestant preacher and then converts. There is always a theistic loophole to do whatever you want.

 

[Magdlyn]

To this day, it is a not very well kept secret that many priests have "housekeepers" who are wives, for all intents and purposes...

 

[MonoVCPHG]

As a young boy I worked for the Catholic church for numerous years. I can honestly say that no preist ever aproached me for sex and I spent a lot of alone time with them.

That being said, I do have a cousin who committed suicide at 14 and it was suspected that something was happening to him at the church.

Some people exaggerate, while others gloss over things. It just depends on what your agenda is.

 

[serialmonogamist]

To this day, it is a not very well kept secret that many priests have "housekeepers" who are wives, for all intents and purposes...

The ex-Catholic guy I've been talking to said seminaries he's heard about are hotbeds of gay sex.

So, celibacy for priests? Not happening. Who are they to tell us how to run our sex lives? I've asked that question all my life, and my answer is, they have no place advising people on sex.

I once dated an ex-seminary student who had studied to become a Catholic priest. He wanted to write about his experiences, don't know if he ever did. Anyway, he told me that just about every night he and his fellow novitiates were either up on the roof smoking pot or visiting their secret girlfriends in the nearby town.

Just thought I'd add my useless two cents about priests and celibacy, though it seems this thread has gone wa-a-a-ay off-topic.

None of this information surprises me. The Catholic Church is an enormous organization, so there are bound to be more abusers of the system than pious devotees willing to sacrifice all worldly temptation for a higher calling. Plus, if you look at the way the Catholic teachings work generally, they are designed to receive sinners, no matter how depraved, and nurture their conscience into being using confession and repetitive dogmatic teaching. So surely the idea is that whatever sins people are guilty of in joining the church will gradually be washed away as they rise to the calling. Probably many people just get inspired and give it a shot and give up trying. Some others probably go into it with no intent of ever becoming sincere, but that is also true of any organization, isn't it?

 

[Magdlyn]

They came on the ark 2 by 2.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8njvAEpzmhA&feature=player_embedded

 

[jasminegld]

...AA. This involves a 12 step programme where you search out a relationship with "A God of your understanding'. I have searched all my life for such a relationship through both christianity and more new age philosophies but never found it to the extent I have through AA.

This is interesting. Are you willing to say more?

I had a fascinating conversation with an atheist a week or two ago, in which he and I understood each other on a point of faith for the first time. I've been working on finding a way to understand at least a little the atheist approach for over ten years now, and finally got somewhere in this conversation.

So now I'm all interested in hearing about other people's new experiences.

The further I get into the programme the more difficulty I seem to have accepting being in a committed relationship with someone polyamorous.

Why do you think that is? Is the programme freeing you to express what you want to express? Or is the programme leading you to express what the programme wants you to express? Is this something you want to talk about?

My daughter, who is very christian tells me this is because the concept of polyamory is not of God (her God anyway).

I'm very Christian too. I'm also very poly. Someone once asked me to reconcile my open marriage with Scripture -- I had written about open marriage before I learened the word polyamory. May I email my response to you?

A God of my understanding is impossible to explain but does not have such prejudices. He does however want me to be happy and I'm wondering if the way this is manifesting is an indication that this relationship is perhaps not the best platform for my peace and happiness moving forward.

Are there more issues than just polyamory involved? What about security, companionship, and simplicity? Are they missing too?

I have these thoughts on one hand and on the other I think that this is just me battling my ego.

Jacob wrestled with the angel. Judaism, I'm told, has a tradition of wrestling with the Scriptures to figure out what they mean. Battling is part of deep soul searching.

Jasmine

 

[Quath]

I had a fascinating conversation with an atheist a week or two ago, in which he and I understood each other on a point of faith for the first time. I've been working on finding a way to understand at least a little the atheist approach for over ten years now, and finally got somewhere in this conversation.

I am kind of interested in how this went. It may be off topic for this thread. If so, maybe a new thread? But no pressure. I am just curious.