Problems with dishonesty from non-primary relationship

[Rainbowwitch]

Hi, I'm new here so I'm a bit nervous about posting, but I'd really benefit from some advice from people who might understand where I'm coming from.

I'm a woman married to another woman, happily so, and my wife and I had been open to the idea of an ethically non-monogamous relationship for a while, and when I met someone I liked a few months ago, we put theory into practice and gave it a go. Unfortunately, I didn't have a good judge of character with the other woman I started dating, and things got rather complicated (in a bad way), which leads us to think that we're actually not ready to put it into practice yet, and that there are some things to iron out and some more boundaries to set first. So at the moment, in order to put our relationship first, we're closed again.

So that's the background, but the thing I want advice about is what happened with the other person. Basically, for several months we had a lot of fun and grew to care about one another. But she started sleeping with/having a relationship with someone else from our social group, and didn't tell me until 3 weeks after it first happened. Even though she's free to do what she wants, and I'm not judging her for having someone other than me (I have a wife after all!), I find openness and honesty really important, and especially because it's with someone I know, I was hurt.

We've since ended our relationship, for this reason and others, and she is keen to be friends, but I'm trying to explain that it's difficult for me to be her friend because she doesn't understand why I was hurt. She's saying I should understand that as our relationship wasn't totally what she wanted, it's not a big deal that she didn't tell me about the other person for 2 weeks (the amount of weeks keeps changing). She told me at the beginning that our arrangement was perfect for her, and that for now she had no problem dating someone already married as she is going through a divorce and wasn't looking for a primary partner, and I facilitated many opportunities along the way for us to talk about how things were going - especially because I was sensitive to the possibility of her starting to want more. Even though I'm sure I wasn't perfect, I showed her a lot of care, and I feel like I ultimately didn't get the same back.

My belief is that one should show respect and care for all relationships, even when one isn't intending to spend the rest of one's life in a monogamous marriage with someone. My feeling is that she had a responsibility to be honest about what she was looking for with me, and to tell me if that changed over time. How it comes across to me is that she's saying our relationship and my feelings didn't really matter because I've already got a wife, so she doesn't have to be honest with me, and that really throws me because I had been under the impression that we cared about each other and that we were on the same page. Something that makes me cross in particular was that she had sex with me at least twice after she started having sex with the other person, when she knew that safer sex is important to me...and something makes me not believe her when she said she had discussed safer sex with the other person.

Is this a common pitfall of dating someone who isn't already that familiar with poly principles? I know that a lot of the problem came down to the personality of this specific woman (now that I'm out of it I can see other examples of dishonesty and toxicity), but I'm wondering whether part of it came down to that too. Being fairly new to this myself, I suspect I probably wasn't perfect at explaining all concepts etc, but I take responsibility for that. I suspect a large part of why this happened is to do with ingrained societal ideas that any relationship which is not your monogamous marriage is unimportant and doesn't require care and attention.

To clarify: I completely understand not wanting to be involved with someone who already has a stable primary partner, but I think if she felt that way she had a responsibility not to get involved with me, or if she really was fine at the beginning to make it known once she changed her mind. I know people make mistakes and communication can be difficult, but in this case it seems like she thinks it was inevitable that that happened and that she couldn't be expected to have any self-control.

Apologies for the amount of text - I'm a writer! Thank you so much for reading, and I'll greatly appreciate any thoughts that anyone has!

 

[GalaGirl]

I am sorry you had to deal with this.

Something that makes me cross in particular was that she had sex with me at least twice after she started having sex with the other person, when she knew that safer sex is important to me...and something makes me not believe her when she said she had discussed safer sex with the other person.

Is this a common pitfall of dating someone who isn't already that familiar with poly principles?

FWIW, I don't think this a poly problem per se. To me it sounds like a consent problem and a Selfish Person problem.

She was free to share sex with other people. You guys were not exclusive.

She shared sex with Person X. It is her body. She can do what she wants with it.

Then shared sex with you without giving you an update about her change in sex health history. So you could not give full consent to this NEW arrangement/dynamic because you did not have full info. Maybe you no longer want to be part of her network if it now includes person X. Maybe you are fine with it. But you didn't get the chance to consider it from a place of full info. She left data out (which to some is a lie of omission).

Now that you are voicing upset with her less than honest and forthright behavior? She's not taking responsibility for her part of the situation making. She is minimizing.

she's saying our relationship and my feelings didn't really matter because I've already got a wife, so she doesn't have to be honest with me.

That's a crap way to behave. Since when does being married make you a person with no feelings? Since when does you being married = her not having to be honest in her dealings with you? If you asked for up front and honest communication and she agreed, and she's now breaking agreements.

I don't think you can be "friends" with a person like that. They lack empathy/consideration for others. IF they make agreements they do not keep then they basically don't keep their Word. They lack basic consent manners.

She reminds me of the car one. She shared sex with you once, now thinks she can have sex with you whenever without checking in first. Even if she has other partners or does other things that may affect you.... it's not about YOU. It's all about HER and her jollies. No concept of checking in again to obtain consent anew. Consent once before doesn't mean a hall pass all the time. Sheesh!

Even now, this "friendship" she's after sounds to me like she wants to keep your around for "back up" supply in case she wants something else from you. Might be great for her, but I don't see how it is great for you.

I completely understand not wanting to be involved with someone who already has a stable primary partner, but I think if she felt that way she had a responsibility not to get involved with me, or if she really was fine at the beginning to make it known once she changed her mind.

I agree with you. You cannot be a mind reader. If arrangements no longer suit her, you cannot read her mind.

So it becomes her job to make you aware.... provided she CARES to make you aware in the first place.

You are/were assuming others share your values/ethics. Never assume.

If what she cares about in the first place is WHAT SHE CAN GET FROM YOU? She will tell you whatever pretty song to gain access to you and then suck you dry.

If she's a selfish user type personality? From her POV, why would she give you the honest heads up that this arrangement really doesn't suit her long term and she mostly just wants to gain access to you so she can try to suck you dry? So you leave before she's gets her hooks in? Where's the fun for her that way?

People who really DO NOT CARE, and are NOT NICE and are only out FOR THEMSELVES? They simply aren't going to do the nice/correct things. They will do whatever however even if it mows other people down because they are only out for THEMSELVES.

I've had my share of run-ins with that personality type and it is awful. I am very sorry your first foray into poly relationships sounds like it was one of those super selfish / toxic people.

Not everyone is like that. So I hope it doesn't color your outlook.

I know people make mistakes and communication can be difficult, but in this case it seems like she thinks it was inevitable that that happened and that she couldn't be expected to have any self-control.

IME, that's the typical response from selfish people who don't care to exercise self control and don't care to take personal responsibility for their actions. They find a way to minimize or blame shift on to others.

In this case...

• Not her worry. You are married, you don't have feelings. So why should she worry about it?
• Not her fault. This was inevitable, can't expect her to exericise self control. If her relationships are doomed to end, can you blame her for sucking them dry as fast as she can? (While conveniently overlooking her provoking behavior that might cause the relationship's demise.)

It's all wonky thinking and no healthy, balanced, caring person would behave this way.

now that I'm out of it I can see other examples of dishonesty and toxicity

I suggest you NOT be friends with her. Keep your distance now that you know her true colors and see her as a toxic person to be around. Keep your distance.

Again, I'm sorry you had to deal with this.

You deserve to be treated well. Not poorly.

Galagirl

 

[vinsanity0]

So that's the background, but the thing I want advice about is what happened with the other person. Basically, for several months we had a lot of fun and grew to care about one another. But she started sleeping with/having a relationship with someone else from our social group, and didn't tell me until 3 weeks after it first happened. Even though she's free to do what she wants, and I'm not judging her for having someone other than me (I have a wife after all!), I find openness and honesty really important, and especially because it's with someone I know, I was hurt.

Did you have an agreement in place in which you were required to inform each other of new relationships? If so, then she wasn't honest. If not, then she wasn't being dishonest.

Personally, I don't need to know who my partners are dating. It's up to them to tell me if they want. It usually comes up if there is a scheduling conflict or something. I do have an agreement with MK to let her know if I am seeing someone new, but that was her idea.

We've since ended our relationship, for this reason and others, and she is keen to be friends, but I'm trying to explain that it's difficult for me to be her friend because she doesn't understand why I was hurt. She's saying I should understand that as our relationship wasn't totally what she wanted, it's not a big deal that she didn't tell me about the other person for 2 weeks (the amount of weeks keeps changing). She told me at the beginning that our arrangement was perfect for her, and that for now she had no problem dating someone already married as she is going through a divorce and wasn't looking for a primary partner, and I facilitated many opportunities along the way for us to talk about how things were going - especially because I was sensitive to the possibility of her starting to want more. Even though I'm sure I wasn't perfect, I showed her a lot of care, and I feel like I ultimately didn't get the same back.

Was she dating this other person with the intention of going into a monogamous relationship? If she decided polyamory wasn't for her then she should have told you that.

My belief is that one should show respect and care for all relationships, even when one isn't intending to spend the rest of one's life in a monogamous marriage with someone. My feeling is that she had a responsibility to be honest about what she was looking for with me, and to tell me if that changed over time. How it comes across to me is that she's saying our relationship and my feelings didn't really matter because I've already got a wife, so she doesn't have to be honest with me, and that really throws me because I had been under the impression that we cared about each other and that we were on the same page. Something that makes me cross in particular was that she had sex with me at least twice after she started having sex with the other person, when she knew that safer sex is important to me...and something makes me not believe her when she said she had discussed safer sex with the other person.

For me, this is an issue of trust. As I said above, I don't need to know who my partners are having sex with. That is because I trust them. If I didn't trust them, they wouldn't be my partner. It sounds like there were other issues that caused you to doubt her honesty. It's probably a good that you broke it off with her.

Is this a common pitfall of dating someone who isn't already that familiar with poly principles? I know that a lot of the problem came down to the personality of this specific woman (now that I'm out of it I can see other examples of dishonesty and toxicity), but I'm wondering whether part of it came down to that too. Being fairly new to this myself, I suspect I probably wasn't perfect at explaining all concepts etc, but I take responsibility for that. I suspect a large part of why this happened is to do with ingrained societal ideas that any relationship which is not your monogamous marriage is unimportant and doesn't require care and attention.

This always sounds like a cliche, but communication is an essential skill in any relationship. The more you communicate your needs and wants, the easier the relationship is. Never assume anything.

To clarify: I completely understand not wanting to be involved with someone who already has a stable primary partner, but I think if she felt that way she had a responsibility not to get involved with me, or if she really was fine at the beginning to make it known once she changed her mind. I know people make mistakes and communication can be difficult, but in this case it seems like she thinks it was inevitable that that happened and that she couldn't be expected to have any self-control.

Apologies for the amount of text - I'm a writer! Thank you so much for reading, and I'll greatly appreciate any thoughts that anyone has!

You are absolutely right, but there were some yellow flags from the beginning. Going through a divorce is not a good time to start a new relationship. Quite often that is a rebound and short lived. Also, dating someone new to the concept of poly has it's pitfalls. Those are just a couple things to look out for in the future.

Finally, not every relationship works out. That's just the way it is.

 

[Magdlyn]

Hmm, I don't have as strong a reaction as GalaGirl. If your relationship with gf was rather new and uncommitted, just getting started, and you didn't specifically tell her you would like to be informed whenever she had a date with/fucked someone else, she's not in the wrong.

Did you discuss specifics of safer lesbian sex? What were your requirements? Did she agree? Did you want her to go the whole dental dam and gloves route?

I once had a sort of FWB relationship with a guy (I'm bi, in a LTR with a woman too) for 2 1/2 years. We saw each other, on average, once every 3 weeks. For all of that time except one summer fling, I was his only sex partner. At one point I asked him if he's shagged anyone else, and he told me about the recent summer fling. I knew he religiously used condoms with me, so I just kinda congratulated him and we moved on.

Slightly different since your gf shagged someone from your general social group. If it were me, I'd give the woman another chance. Perhaps YOU didn't fully clarify your requests for consent of each and every person she has sex with, or is even considering dating. It's partly sex health issues, and for you, partly social lesbian group issues, I guess. You don't want to be at a party or other gathering and not know your gf is fucking Sally over there.

There does come a point where you do need to trust your partners. If a partner was going to be very promiscuous, I'd need her to do frequent sex labs.

 

[kdt26417]

Hi Rainbowwitch,

It is common enough, especially if the people involved are new to poly, to have misunderstandings about what level of communication is expected. It's possible this was the case with the other woman you were seeing. But it's also possible she knew she was keeping something from you that you'd want to know, and just tried to tiptoe around the issue.

Sorry that she hurt you like that.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.