Proposing polyamory to a partner for the 1st time. Merged Threads, General Discussion

[opalescent]

What TR said.

Is GC under the impression that you are seeing only him? Have you explicitly, in words which were said aloud, agreed to be monogamous with him? If so, you need to address this as soon as possible.

Is this why you think GC would be hurt that you have other lovers? Or are there other reasons?

Finally, do your other involvements know about GC? If they don't, it would be a courtesy to tell them, especially if the relationship with GC evolves into something serious. I'm juggling a marriage and two lovers and have found it very helpful that everyone knows about everyone else.

 

[trueRiver]

...is GC under the impression that you are seeing only him? Have you explicitly, in words which were said aloud, agreed to be monogamous with him?

I think we need to be aware that in the mainstream culture, just agreeing to be in a relationship is taken to mean exclusivity. Given that we know that, we do have more of a duty to disclose other relationships.

Let me give an analogy. You turn up at a restaurant. Your table is not yet available, and the maitre d' ushers you into the waiting area. Would Madam like a drink while waiting? Yes, please. Now, nothing was said about paying for the drink. Was it complementary (as the table was late), or does it get added to the bill? If you don't check at the time, you cannot refuse to pay because the culture of restaurant usage is that you pay for all food and drink supplied, unless stated otherwise.

Or, still at the restaurant, you get to the end of the meal and you leave. When accused of dishonesty, you say, correctly, all these nice people kept asking what I wanted; nobody asked me to promise to pay.

So, I think there is an ethical push towards being explicit about being poly, as soon as you get around to behaviour that implies exclusivity to most folks in that setting. I think the original post makes it clear that this has already occurred, and I would not go along with the idea that it is okay just because words were not said.

... I'm juggling a marriage and two lovers and have found it very helpful that everyone knows about everyone else.

Here I agree totally. You will be more comfortable with all these people once you are not keeping something back from them. This may lead to an ultimatum: choose them or me. Even so, that is better than continuing with something that would hurt the person if they later found out.

It may also lead to an outright rejection. If so, them being with you now is based on false assumptions. It is not the real you they are with, but a sanitized fake made by their assumptions. Again, though rejection is never comfortable, I personally would rather be rejected as the real me than continue to be accepted on the basis of a misassumption.

And you might get really lucky. They might be okay with the idea. Even if it is not their ideal scenario, they might be content to allow it to continue.

So my advice is to go for full disclosure of all current ongoing situations.

 

[IndieSolo]

He is all I am interested at the moment, and likely for some time to come. I'm not looking. I'm very happy now and am pretty sure he has never even heard of polyamory.

Since things got serious with GC, both Rob and Matt are more interested. They have both been important to me and I don't want to simply drop them. I could probably continue sexual relationships with them and it would not affect how I feel about GC.

The above two statements are rather incongruous with each other. There seems to be a conflict, and I'm unclear on what it is you want.

 

[wannabe]

Fair enough, NYC. It does seem a little odd. Let me try to explain.

Rob and Matt are more interested in me. I have pretty much no interest in being sexual with them, for the moment, anyway.

However, as they have been in my life for a while now, it wouldn't feel right to simply cut them off cold. Hypothetically, if I did sleep with them, I suspect it would not change my feelings for GC. But I'm really not that interested.

So why would I even consider it? Well, because I think it's important to maintain relationships in general, and also because, in my experience, casual lovers have stuck around longer and been less painful than relationships. I realise it's a somewhat avoidant pattern. I am trying to take the leap with GC to get out of this pattern. It's hard, and a bit scary.

 

[IndieSolo]

Rob and Matt are more interested in me. I have pretty much no interest in being sexual with them, for the moment, anyway. However, as they have been in my life for a while now, it wouldn't feel right to simply cut them off cold.

Hmm. Well, logically, if you don't want to have sex with someone, you don't. Nothing confusing there. It doesn't mean they have to be cut out of your life coldly. You can still maintain friendships with them. I think that part is pretty simple. All relationships change with time, and I think that anyone involved in casual, primarily sexual relationships are aware that their partners may find people to get serious with, and that they should be prepared for the idea that a sex partner entering into something more committed emotionally with someone else would naturally change things.

As far as GC goes, I think it's important to be upfront and honest with him sooner rather than later. "Hey GC, you know, I'm really enjoying what we have and I'm not pursuing any other relationships, but I wanted to talk to you about the possibility of leaving that option open. How do you feel about that?" Also fairly simple. I come from the "say it directly" (but with compassion) school of thought on things like this. I would think that emphasizing that it is a long-distance relationship would help in explaining the practicality of keeping your options open.

 

[wannabe]

Is GC under the impression that you are seeing only him? Have you explicitly, in words which were said aloud, agreed to be monogamous with him? If so, you need to address that as soon as possible.

Is that why you think GC would be hurt that you have other lovers? Or other reasons?

Finally, do your other involvements know about GC? If they don't, it would be a courtesy to tell them, especially if the relationship with GC evolves into something serious. I'm juggling a marriage and two lovers and have found it very helpful that everyone knows about everyone else.

Yes, to be clear, GC would have an expectation of monogamy. As noted by TR, although it has not been explicitly stated by either party, it's somewhat of an accepted norm. Until poly is more widely known, anyway.

I agree that I should be telling everyone everything. Note that GC is very long distance, Rob is in a different county and Matt lives a few hours away. I'm dithering because there no practical impetus to tell and sort it out. Again, no excuse. I know what I should do here.

GC is very far away. It's very new. He has likely never heard of poly. For the moment I'm not seeing or sleeping with Rob or Matt. Would telling him complicate or clarify?

Matt knows I've met someone special, but I have not indicted that this means I want to be exclusive with new guy. Rob is in a theoretically monogamous marriage. (Clearly he isn't.) I don't ask him about his relationship with his wife. Telling Rob or Matt that I'm in a relationship is likely to signal to them that I no longer want to see them. Maybe I'm just not ready to finalise that decision yet.

FYI, there can be several months between the times I see either Rob or Matt, even up to half a year.

Rob and Matt don't know about each other. I doubt either would be particularly bothered about it. It's simply never occurred to me to tell either about the other. Funny, that...

 

[IndieSolo]

GC is very far away, its very new and has likely never heard of poly. For the moment, I'm not seeing or sleeping with Rob or Matt. Would telling him complicate or clarify?

I very rarely, if ever, use the words "polyamory" or "polyamorous." It's just too confusing for too many people. Most everyone understands talking about exclusivity, though. I just tell people, "I'm not looking for exclusivity," or "I'm not comfortable with exclusivity right now," and use that as a springboard for discussion.

If he asks if you have anyone in mind, tell the truth: "There are two guys I've been involved with in the past, who are still in my life, and although I don't desire getting involved with them again right now, I don't really want to cut off any possibility for the future, if it feels right."

 

[opalescent]

"There are two guys I've been involved with in the past, who are still in my life, and although I don't desire getting involved with them again right now, I don't really want to cut off any possibility for the future, if it feels right."

Seriously, just cut and past NYCindie's entire message. Good language there.

Rant ahead!

I have to take issue with this agreeing to date = "We are now a monogamous couple," IF NO ONE SAYS SO OUT LOUD. Pardon the shouting, but this really tweaks me. Not you, specifically, Wannabe, but this ridiculous convention in general. If there are no actual words in a discussion, there is no actual agreement, just assumptions that can be interpreted any which way by the people involved. People interpret silence however they want. And this leads to miscommunication, sometimes lying, and pain and hurt all around. This convention needs to die and, Wannabe, I hope you take a stab at its heart.

Rant over.

 

[IndieSolo]

Rant ahead!

I have to take issue with this agreeing to date = we are now a monogamous couple IF NO ONE SAYS SO OUT LOUD. Pardon the shouting, but this really tweaks me. Not you, specifically, Wannabe, but this ridiculous convention in general.

Yeah, actually it's usually the other way around. How many times have we heard, "But we never said we were monogamous, right?" This is the stuff sitcoms are made of! Remember when Carrie discovered Mr. Big on a date? She had no reason to assume he was only seeing her. I think it's more common that, unless you agree to exclusivity, it is not automatically assumed!

 

[3rdwifenow]

How do you bring it up?

I am currently on my third marriage. My first two ended in disaster. I love my wife and children dearly and do not want to be without them in any way. I also have an appetite for other women that I suppress.


Our sex life was great when we first met, but as usual, life gets in the way of our relationship. She seems uninterested in us and the needs I have. We still have fun together, and when we have sex it is wonderful, but I want and need more.

I have considered bringing up an open relationship with her, but not sure that it would go over very well. How do you bring this subject up?

And then, how do you bring it up to the third party involved, etc.?

 

[redpepper]

Have a good read around here and educate yourself first. Do a search, explore Golden Nuggets. This site is not particularly for "open marriages," although a lot of couples start that way, or with swinging. I would recommend finding out what you want, and what you could deal with, if she decides she wants the same things.

Remember that when you address this with her she will be starting at zero. You will need to be very patient and respect her process. It will be a rollercoaster of ups and downs, for sure. We are here to walk both of you through it, if need be. It might be a good idea to suggest she read here also.

 

[IndieSolo]

Do you romance your wife regularly? E.g.:

Get a babysitter and take her out on dates?
Tell her how sexy she is?
Buy her lingerie and sex toys?
Try new things in bed with her?
Help with the housework and childcare so you two have more time for romance and making love?

Not saying you don't, but I think what lots of men miss is that a woman's desire is often tied to how desirable her partner finds her. If her enthusiasm has waned, perhaps she's not getting enough of the message from you that you want her. Maybe she's tired at the end of the day from her work as a wife and mother and wants to know she still turns you on. Maybe she is self-conscious of her body after having babies. Whatever it is, I think that delving into finding out, understanding, and dealing with any issues surrounding the changes in your sex life should take place way before trying polyamory, or other forms of non-monogamy, and being sexual with other women. That could be just opening a can of worms if she's feeling rejected. And having a sexual relationship with someone else, just to make up for what is lacking in your marriage, is not a nice way to treat another woman coming into this situation. You'd be putting her in the role of sex toy.

So I say look at what's missing in your marriage first, and make changes to improve and deepen your intimacy with your wife, before trying to get your jollies with other people.

 

[Magdlyn]

I agree with NYCindie. Plus I want to ask, what were the "disasters" that were involved in your previous divorces? What did you do wrong, what lessons have you learned? Is this latest marriage also heading into disaster because your wife no longer desires you? Was this a pattern in your previous relationships? Did you cheat before, and this time you think polyamory or an open relationship would be better?

If you have young children with your latest wife, do you even have time to date other women? Would she resent the time you take away from the family to pursue these other romances, while she's elbow deep in diapers and dishes?

 

[PolyKat]

Our first open discussion on going poly...

I talked to my fiance just moments ago and told him that on my road to self discovery, it would help if he found a girlfriend.

He wasn't comfortable with the idea, but was willing to give it a try. Questions and answers later, he found himself at this, "At some point, are you going to want to 'connect' with someone too?" and then shut the whole thing down, because the thought of me with another man sickens him. I told him that would be a non-issue for now, and we would go at his pace and just start with him having other relationships.

We're going to talk later, and I don't know if it will be the beginning of a new experience, a standstill, or the end of our relationship. I'm not trying to push him into letting me do anything. At this point, I want him to understand my feelings towards monogamy and maybe experience polygamy for himself, so he can see that when falling in love, it doesn't have to be limited to two people.

In the meantime, I'll consider becoming bisexual, because he's not threatened by anyone without a penis. I don't dislike women. I'm just afraid of vaginas. I wouldn't know what to do if faced with one. Pun intended!

Any advice on how the follow-up conversation should go? No, he won't read any books or articles. He'd prefer I just talk to him and he'll just... who knows?

 

[IndieSolo]

Well, first of all, don't "become bisexual" for him. Think about how another woman would feel if you were going down on her, not because you wanted to, but because you were appeasing him. She would feel like shit, and like a disposable toy. So, don't even go there. It's the most illogical, immature, disrespectful thing anyone could do and I can't even fathom why you'd consider it. Geez.

As far as your next conversation, I would lay it all out, that eventually you want another lover, and you want him to know that for you love "doesn't have to be limited to two people."

See, all you can do is tell a partner what you want and let them decide if they can live with it. If yes, then you negotiate how to make that comfortable, and what incremental boundaries get established, which later get renegotiated until everyone has what they want. No one should be giving each other ultimatums.

 

[Vixtoria]

I may be lost, but I'm horribly confused by a few things.

I talked to my fiance just moments ago, and told him that on my road to self discovery, it would help if he found a girlfriend.

I'm unsure how someone else having more or less or different partners has anything to do with your own self discovery. For me, self discovery of being bisexual, and of being poly, did involve major discussions with my spouse and affected our marriage. But it was about me, about what I wanted-- more people in my life. I'm just lost how you would get help in "self discovery" by someone else getting a date.

He wasn't comfortable with the idea, but was willing to give it a try. Questions and answers later, he found himself at, "At some point, are you going to want to 'connect' with someone too?" and then shut the whole thing down, because the thought of me with another man sickens him. I told him that would be a non-issue for now, and we would go at his pace, and just start with him having other relationships.

Maybe it's just me. Maybe I spent way too much time on certain poly/mono lists, where people were not really ethical, but claiming to be. This looks like a case of, "Honey, you become poly first so you can enjoy it. Then I can tell you I want to date other people. And now you can't be upset because I let you date other people!" If the point is that you want to be poly, then you work on that. Not by making someone else poly first. It's not a science kit-- it's a relationship.

We're going to talk later, and I don't know if it will be the beginning of a new experience, a standstill, or the end of our relationship. I'm not trying to push him into letting me do anything. At this point, I want him to understand my feelings towards monogamy, and maybe experience polygamy for himself, so he can see that when falling in love, it doesn't have to be limited to two people.

See above. My husband and my boyfriend are both monoamorous. They understand falling in love not being just two people, because they are both in love with me and I am in love with both of them. I have told them they are, of course, welcome to have other relationships (sticking to the open communication and honesty thing we worked hard at), even that I'd kind of find it hot, but it's not required and I don't ask them to.

In the meantime, I'll consider becoming bisexual, because he's not threatened by anyone without a penis. I don't dislike women. I'm just afraid of vaginas. I wouldn't know what to do if faced with one.

*blink*

I don't get this thing where women think they can 'become' bisexual. If you're curious, fine. But it's not something you do like a party trick! Some people just know they are bisexual or pansexual, or whatever you call yourself. Some of us struggle with it. It's kind of off-putting, personally, to hear someone say they are just going to try and become it for someone else. It's like saying you are going to decide to 'try' and become another race, or something! If it's something you want to explore, say you are bi-curious, but don't say you are going to 'become' bisexual because of a OPP (one-penis policy). That's heartbreak for someone just waiting to happen.

I would be devastated, as a woman, to begin dating another woman, and find out she's not bisexual, not even bi-curious, but just doing it for a boyfriend.

Any advice on how the follow-up conversation should go? He won't read any books or articles. He'd prefer I just talk to him, and he'll just... who knows?

Tell him you are interested in becoming poly. Not him. Tell him that you aren't interested in women. You are interested in relationships with other men. Tell him that it's not a pressing need, but one of those things where you just want the freedom to be able to pursue a deeper connection with someone, should it come up. Offer to read Opening Up (or other wonderful books that have been suggested) to him. It can be in a relaxed setting. I like doing it in bed together, where we are relaxed and can discuss things as they are read.

Don't try and make him poly so you can be. Don't try to change your sexuality so you can make him comfortable with you being with someone else, that you don't even want to be with on a personal level, just to fill this need for more people in your life. Both are ranging from slightly to definitely manipulative, and a bad start to trying to be ethically non-monogamous.

 

[Icewraithonyx]

He won't read any books or articles.

It's a small point, but this is a bit worrisome. When Wife first brought it up, I tried to read everything I could find in order to understand. Sometimes it took a couple of different versions before something made sense. Blatant refusal to even try to educate himself about the subject seems worrisome.

 

[PolyKat]

I definitely should have used the words "explore my bicurious thoughts" and not "become bisexual"! Forgive me. I would never play with someone just for the sake of playing or proving a point. But I would be honest with someone every step of the way, as taking on a lady love would be new to me and I would require guidance and respect just the same. I've crushed on girls, I've kissed girls, but I have never been sexually involved.

I am, however, willing to explore relationships with men outside of my normal comfort zone, in order to respect his boundaries, while at the same time fulfilling my need to explore having multiple connections.

As far as him dating someone and how that helps me, I need him to see firsthand that he can feel something for another woman and still love me the same. He doesn't have to limit himself or deny himself connections with other people for the sake of not hurting me. If their relationship works out, then good. If not, then he can leave himself open to the option of trying again with someone else, or just being satisfied with me. But at least he will see that none of it comes from a place of bad intentions. I know it may not make sense to try to turn him poly so he can understand me, but I just feel like if he sees that loving someone else doesn't make him want to leave me, because our love is strong, then he'll understand. And I really just want his non-judgmental understanding.

I don't have an end game in this whole situation. I just want the freedom to feel whatever I feel, for whomever I feel it, without him thinking that it's either him or the other guy. I may not only have eyes for him, but he is the most important man in the picture.

 

[redpepper]

Gah, feeling a bit triggered here. I've had lots of swinger-style sex with women who were not bisexual and doing it for their men. BLAH! So not okay. Disgusting to me, actually. This is why I am not into swinging anymore, among other reasons. I don't ever want to find myself in a situation where I have to "figure out" if someone is really bi or not. I don't want to be experimented on, thanks. It makes me feel dirty, cheap and undesirable. Its totally fake fun. *Brrrr* *shiver down my back* Backing way up on even thinking of all that.

Yeah, I would be making buddy wait a really long time if he is not interested in doing some learning and educating himself on this stuff. It shows great laziness and apathy to me. I would feel very uncomfortably disrespected as a result. What, your relationship is not worth working on?

 

[ThatGirlInGray]

Vixtoria said exactly what I wanted to say, only much better than I would have been able to put it.