Quad failed leading to poly stress

[Bibi]

Names for anonymity:
Ted (My Primary Partner)

Couple 2:
Lily
Josh

Alright, this is my first real post here and I'm not sure where to start with this post, but I think the best thing to do is to outline the context of my current situation.
My partner Ted (male, straight) and I (female, bisexual) have been together for just over 3 years now in a fully monogamous relationship. We have another couple that we’re really good friends with and spend a lot of time with – Lily and Josh – with Lily also being Bi and Josh being straight. About a month or two ago (not sure since I haven’t been keeping track of time) all four of us agreed to explore a poly quad relationship with each other (all of us are new to poly). We sat down and had a good chat beforehand about if people were interested and what kinds of boundaries we’d want in place during the testing period. After the discussion we agreed to do some dates across the couples to see how the individual pairings worked out, and if there was any chemistry. We started exploring the group and individual dynamics on emotional levels and low levels of physicality (cuddling and kissing). The group dynamic was a lot of fun and we all enjoyed getting together and functioning as a unit (no surprise there since we started as great friends).
Through the testing period I got a lot closer to Lily and Josh and started developing feelings for them both. However, Lily and Ted discovered they weren’t physically or emotionally interested in each other, and that changed the whole dynamic.

My current dilemma is that I really enjoyed exploring the poly world and really connected with Lily and Josh, however, since my partner Ted didn’t connect with them in the same way he is now left out of the poly relationship. Ted and I have had several conversations about where to go from here and talked about our feelings. He said that he enjoyed the quad for the sense of togetherness that came with it, and did have a positive experience before things kinda hit the fan, but if we move forward he feels like he’ll be left out of that.

I brought up the idea of opening ourselves up to poly more and him going out and finding other people to see too, but he didn’t like that idea very much. He saw our situation as a ‘me and him against the world' thing and thinks that doing that kinda takes away from our dynamic or something. He did say that he would be down to find a third that we both like and create a poly relationship with them. So it kinda just feels like he’s only into poly if we keep it as an us thing, and isn’t okay with it if it’s being done by us as individuals.

I’ve made it very clear to Ted that I love him and that our relationship will remain strong, with him as my priority. He said that he wants me to be happy and will stick with me during this time if it is what makes me happy. But I don’t know how much he’s pushing himself to endure his discomfort, and he doesn’t know if it’ll get better with time. The ideal would be that with time we settle feelings and jealousy and get to a functional place, but he said that if the discomfort stays the same or gets worse he’ll want to split up. Which is fair but really hurts to think about. Honestly, I'm really stressed out and am nto sure how to proceed on this front.

The biggest thing right now is that Ted feels left out of the poly group. Since we’ve gone from a quad to a group of 3 plus a group of two he feels like a fourth wheel sometimes. I’ve tried really hard to reassure him in the dynamic and keep him as included as I can, because we all do care for him (myself especially).
Ted says he feels left out when all four of us are together and the vibe changes from friend to ‘relationship’. One such example is that we play a lot of board games and do stuff together and that’s fine, but we also watch movies and shows and stuff, which is when Lily, Josh, and I enjoy cuddling. Ted isn’t the biggest cuddler, but did join in when we were exploring the quad. However, now that the quad has kinda dissolved he feels weird joining in. I’ve tried to reassure him that I still want to cuddle with him as well as the others, and have made efforts to sit next to him and initiate contact. He hasn’t been very receptive and still feels off. I’m not sure if this is just a matter of getting comfortable with the new dynamic or if we should just stop cuddling around him. While I do like the group cuddles I’d happily stop if it was making him too uncomfortable.

Ted has expressed that he feels some discomfort around the situation and doesn't know how he feels about me going out on dates or getting more intimate with the others when he isn’t able to pursue that stuff as well (which is to say that the quad would have been fine but the current dynamic is strained). Everyone else is really enjoying the poly and we’d all be sad to end it, but we now have to make the decision on whether we want to continue this exploration or end it for Ted’s sake.

Sorry if I rambled, but there is so much to the situation that I don’t know what points to highlight and emphasize. The short summary of everything is that my boyfriend and I tried a poly quad where I caught feelings but he didn’t, he was fine being poly together but isn’t as fine if I’m poly without him, and now I don’t know how to move forward.

My main dilemma is that I want to be able to keep pursuing and developing the feelings in the other two relationships, but I don’t want to leave my primary in a bad place because of it. My main hope for posting this to the forum is to figure out how I should be approaching this scenario to make sure everyone’s feelings can be considered. I’m open to any advice on how this situation should be handled both in considering my side of the situation as well as Ted’s.

Thanks for reading, and if you have any questions or need clarification just ask

 

[GalaGirl]

I'm sorry you struggle. Let me repeat back in my own words what I understand. You correct me if I get bits wrong.

• You all tried out a quad and it did not pan out for that.
• You want to keep going with the triad and keep dating Lily and Josh.
• You are willing for Ted to poly date other people on his own since it did not pan out with this group.
  • Ted doesn't want to date separately. He wanted to approach poly dating as a "group project" with you.
  • He'd be up for a triad with you with someone else. You don't want to date someone else just to keep Ted company. You are trying to keep up with 3 partners now and don't want a 4th. (Is that true?)
• Ted is willing to participate in dating you while you also date Lily and Josh.
  • Ted is fine hanging out in a group like friends and playing board games. When it is clear Lily is with Josh as his date. And you are with Ted as his date.
  • He doesn't like you, Lily, and Josh cuddling in front of him during a movie. Because then it's like you are with Lily and Josh on a movie date and he's just this 4th wheel a lump on a log.
  • If Ted remains uncomfortable or it gets worse after trying this "Triad with a tail" model for ____ weeks/months, he will want to break up with you. You find that fair but it hurts to think about.

So... since Ted is willing, and you want to keep going and so do Lily and Josh....

How about you all ease up on hanging out as friends in a group for at least a month? Because you carry on dating them, and he broke up with them. So asking him to hang out with his exes this soon playing board games might be a bit much right now. You didn't break up with anyone. Lily and Josh broke up with Ted, but they are buoyed up perhaps by still dating you.

How about no more doing any PDA in front of Ted? And you leave the movie cuddling when it's just you, Lily, and Josh on a separate date?

Would Ted be up for trying that on for a while? A very separate thing for the next month? You date Lily and Josh over THERE. Then date Ted over HERE.

Then check in after a month to see how this is going with Ted healing from his break up? And dealing with the quad plan having changed? Could hanging out as friends return?

Would he be more willing to poly date on his own then?

Could you and Ted continue to explore poly education together -- go attend some meetups, listen to podcasts, read some things, etc?

Are you all prepared for worst case scenario? Where everyone breaks up down to everyone single? And no longer friends?

What do you each value most?

• Keep going with the poly exploring in this group even if it might mean all or some of the friendships end?
• Quit exploring poly inside this friend group in order to maintain and preserve the friendships?
  • And stop poly entirely?
  • Or keep going with poly but date separate people OUTSIDE the friend group?

I don't know if that helps you think on things any.

 

[kdt26417]

Hello Bibi,

It sounds like Ted wants an exclusive quad, triad, dyad, or nothing. He wants a closed relationship shape where he plays an active role in the romantic (sexual) aspect of it, and where you and he explore the shape together. He does not seem to be open for compromise on this point.

What you currently have is a Bibi-Lily-Josh triad attached to a Bibi-Ted dyad. That is not what Ted wants but apparently he is enduring it for now. You can keep going like this, but if Ted's feelings about it stay the same or get worse, he will want to break up with you. That is the risk you take, although it's possible Ted will agree to a trial period (of say, one month), and then if his feelings haven't improved, you'll break up with Lily and Josh, and Ted won't break up with you. I suppose that's as close to a compromise as you're going to get.

I wish Ted could have a little bit more of an open mind, but we are dealing with the reality of the matter here, we're not going to get our ideal fantasy. So I guess my advice would be to ask Ted to consent to a trial period (for the situation just as it already is). I do also suggest you not cuddle with Lily and Josh in front of Ted.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[Magdlyn]

It sounds like you haven't progressed to sex with Lili or Josh yet. What is the plan for that? Only threesomes? Or will it be OK to have sex one-on-one with Lili one time, and sex one-on-one with Josh the next?

I'd hold off on proceeding to any kind of sex, even making out, until you get things more sorted out here.

I find it a bit unusual that you jumped into the quad without determining that there was chemistry first. What was the motivation, if you weren't even really attracted to Lili or Josh in the first place, nor were they attracted to you, nor was Ted attracted to either of them or vice versa? Just to see if you could do it? How did the idea come up? Did you see a TV show about swingers or something?

This sounds more like swinging than polyamory, frankly. It seems like the idea is to have hierarchical structure, where the primary couples come first, and the relationships with the other couple comes later.

What if you have sex with Lili and Josh, and it turns out you only really like sex with one or the other of them, and/or only one of them likes sex with you? Then will they have the same sticky issues you're having with Ted? That is what could lead to everyone breaking up with everyone and all going their separate ways, as Gala Girl warned.

Here's the thing: polyamory does not mean spouse swapping, nor does it mean group sex, nor is it usually a group effort, where one couple insists that they both date the same person(s) and if that new person doesn't care for both of them equally, and vice versa, the whole thing gets vetoed.

Polyamory is for more independent people. Either you are a solo poly person, where you just do your thing, or you are part of a couple, but each member of the couple finds and dates their own people. Trying to share hardly ever works out. Quads and triads almost always crash and burn within a few weeks to two years.

It sounds like you all did no research going in to this experiment and now you're trying to play catch-up. You were all optimistic it would work out perfectly, with the women having sex with each other, and with both men as well. The women would have 3 lovers each (2 men and 1 woman) and the men would have 2 lovers each (the 2 women). Now, you've got 3 lovers and so does Lili, Josh has 2 lovers, and poor ol' Ted only has 1. And this is ever so common in quads.

I recommend the book Opening Up to get a lot of information about open relationships, swinging and polyamory as quickly as possible. Maybe you should take a break from dating the new people until everyone learns more about what is going wrong here, and how to approach things to prevent any more hurt. Josh shouldn't be doing poly in a coerced fashion just to please you.

Opening Up: A Guide to Creating and Sustaining Open Relationships: Taormino, Tristan: 9781573442954: Amazon.com: Books

Opening Up: A Guide to Creating and Sustaining Open Relationships [Taormino, Tristan] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Opening Up: A Guide to Creating and Sustaining Open Relationships

www.amazon.com

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

We sat down and had a good chat beforehand about if people were interested and what kinds of boundaries we’d want in place during the testing period.

That's not how passionate relationships begin.

I brought up the idea of opening ourselves up to poly more and him going out and finding other people to see too, but he didn’t like that idea very much. He saw our situation as a ‘me and him against the world' thing and thinks that doing that kinda takes away from our dynamic or something. He did say that he would be down to find a third that we both like and create a poly relationship with them. So it kinda just feels like he’s only into poly if we keep it as an us thing, and isn’t okay with it if it’s being done by us as individuals.

Okay so he's made his boundaries clear. While it's true that us poly people might feel this is not the wisest idea and you'll never find people for this arrangement, he's allowed to say that this is the only way he will proceed. He's allowed to only be into poly this way. You speak as if you expect someone to scold him for that.

or end it for Ted’s sake.

You'd be ending it so Ted doesn't leave you. If making sure you stay together isn't for your sake as well as his, you have no relationship to save.

My main dilemma is that I want to be able to keep pursuing and developing the feelings in the other two relationships, but I don’t want to leave my primary in a bad place because of it.

you can't always get what you want

I don't see a way for you to get there. Ted has made his boundaries clear. Respect them.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

It seems like the idea is to have hierarchical structure, where the primary couples come first, and the relationships with the other couple comes later.

This is polyamory. Hierarchical polyamory is polyamory not swinging.

i
Either you are a solo poly person, where you just do your thing, or you are part of a couple, but each member of the couple finds and dates their own people.

That's not true. Some poly people (unwisely) date as a couple unit. It's still polyamory.

You can't just dismiss the styles of polyamory you disagree with as swinging. You seem to be implying this a lot lately and it's just not factual and not what a moderator of a polyamory site should be promoting. It's a projection of your own poor experiences not related to any truth at all.

 

[Magdlyn]

This is polyamory. Hierarchical polyamory is polyamory not swinging.

That's not true. Some poly people (unwisely) date as a couple unit. It's still polyamory.

You can't just dismiss the styles of polyamory you disagree with as swinging. You seem to be implying this a lot lately and it's just not factual and not what a moderator of a polyamory site should be promoting. It's a projection of your own poor experiences not related to any truth at all.

OK, let me put it this way, since I seem to have offended. Hierarchical polyamory bears a strong resemblance to swinging, where the original couple comes first, no matter what, and they are not "allowed" to get too involved with their secondaries, and if they do, there might well be a veto in place to dump that overly attractive and available secondary.

I don't mean to imply there is a One True Poly. I mean to be talking about healthy, successful, workable poly with the potential for long term happy relationships, all in balance, as opposed to a shape where there is fear of loss preventing anyone else from "coming between" the original couple. That's couple privilege and I find it distasteful.

Just because I am a mod doesn't mean I am not allowed to have an opinion. I get to post as a person, but I can clean up spam, give warnings if people break our rules/guidelines, and occasionally ban a really outrageous person. I'm not all powerful or always going to have a popular opinion.

And no, it's not a "projection of my own poor experiences." I've been around polyamory for 24 years and I have learned from hundreds of other poly practitioners and advisors.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

Hierarchical polyamory bears a strong resemblance to swinging, where the original couple comes first, no matter what, and they are not "allowed" to get too involved with their secondaries, and if they do, there might well be a veto in place to dump that overly attractive and available secondary.

I think this dichotomy you present is false. I think the rules that swingers have vary more than this. I think you're talking more about how people interact at formal swinging events with (near) strangers. That's not how every swinger "swings".

So to me, this is the first problem. You conflate swinging and "hierarchical poly" to have features I'm not sure they share or are even universal within that group.

I mean to be talking about healthy, successful, workable poly with the potential for long term happy relationships

I'm not sure "hierarchical poly" does lack this potential you speak of. Nor swinging. It depends on who is involved. I can imagine it really doesn't work for some people.

That's couple privilege and I find it distasteful.

Sure. But the implication that these arrangements are "swinging" and "not poly" because "all swingers do this" is not reflective of the truth. "Distasteful" to you doesn't mean it can only be "swinging" and that's what you seem to insinuate.

I've been around polyamory for 24 years and I have learned from hundreds of other poly practitioners and advisors.

There's a difference between "this never usually works for long" and "this is just swinging".

 

[Magdlyn]

I didn't say "This is just swinging," or "All swingers do this," though. I'm really not into black and white thinking and would not speak/write like that. I said, "This sounds more like swinging." I don't care to split hairs anymore. We can agree to differ on this. Thanks.

 

[Bibi]

I find it a bit unusual that you jumped into the quad without determining that there was chemistry first.

This wasn't really the case. I had some chemistry with Lily and was open to exploring other chemistry. But since I was most open to it the starting convo and exploration was to see if other people were down too. And everyone agreed they were down to try.

Your response seems pretty charged and it did make me feel a little attacked, but I can understand that it comes from a place of limited information, since there was only so much I could share in my origional post.

I'd hold off on proceeding to any kind of sex, even making out, until you get things more sorted out here.

We are holding off on sex since we don't wanna proceed too quickly without making sure everyone is comfortable with the situation.

It sounds like you all did no research going in to this experiment and now you're trying to play catch-up.

I did do research going into it, maybe not as much as I should have, but I did familiarized myself with what it meant to be poly through various online reseources including this forum.

I have emotionally connected with Lily and Josh (the two from the other couple) which I believe does make it a poly exploration since it's a relationship thing rather than a swinging physicality thing.

I do appreciate the time you took to read and respond to my post.

 

[Bibi]

That's not how passionate relationships begin.

No I guess not, but passion can lead people astray if blindly followed. Sitting down and having a serious converstation was really necessary for us to make sure we were all on the same page in terms of desires and boundaries. It may have been a formal start but it doesn't mean that there was no passion underlying or coming from the situation.

I don't see a way for you to get there. Ted has made his boundaries clear. Respect them.

I 100% respect his boundaries. I probably have just gotten caught up in the excitement of the new feelings which has made me want to give this particular poly exploration all I could. But a reality check is probably fair.
Ted is the most important thing for me and while the poly relationships with Lily and Josh are great, they're not worth losing Ted, because I love him so much. So I guess to claify on an earlier point of yours; staying together is for my sake as well as his, because we do have a solid and loving relationship.

Thanks for responding to my post, I'll definitely keep the reality check in mind.

 

[Bibi]

You are trying to keep up with 3 partners now and don't want a 4th. (Is that true?)

Not really. I am open and willing to explore a separate poly relationship with Ted and someone else. I've spoken to him about it and he's not sure how he feels about it. Since to him having a more complicated polycule stresses him out a bit.
Otherwise your summary is accurate.

You date Lily and Josh over THERE. Then date Ted over HERE.

This is a great and very fair suggestion. I guess the stuff that was okay in the quad crept into the new dynamic where it didn't belong, which wasn't fair to Ted.

We have all talked together and agreed to separate the poly and non-poly hang outs more strictly. We're going to take a month with our old and some new boundaries in place to see if that makes things better for Ted. If it doesn't we'll stop the poly in favour of the friendship and mine and Ted's relationship.

Coming down to earth and figuring out what we actually value, like you said, was super important. And we do all value the friendship and Ted's mental well-being, so we're not gonna push a situation that just doesn't work.

Thanks for your response

 

[Bibi]

I wish Ted could have a little bit more of an open mind, but we are dealing with the reality of the matter here, we're not going to get our ideal fantasy. So I guess my advice would be to ask Ted to consent to a trial period (for the situation just as it already is). I do also suggest you not cuddle with Lily and Josh in front of Ted.

We have decided to move forward with a trial period and have agreed not to cuddle in front of Ted. We're gonna make sure poly time does not overlap with friend time, which will hopefully make Ted happier during the hangouts and with the situation overall.

Thanks for your kind response

 

[kdt26417]

You're welcome; it sounds like you have worked some things out and can take the next step. Kudos for all of you leaning into the dilemma, and for you having heart-to-hearts with the other three.

 

[Magdlyn]

This wasn't really the case. I had some chemistry with Lily and was open to exploring other chemistry.

Oh, that is an important piece of the puzzle. You developed a sexual attraction to Lily and wanted to explore a FF relationship. Did you tell Ted about it before you declared your feelings to Lily?

So after a little research, you decided to include the men in the exploration, even though your initial attraction was just to Lily. Josh then got on board, but the final piece between Lily and Ted never blossomed.

But since I was most open to it, the starting convo and exploration was to see if other people were down too. And everyone agreed they were down to try.

Your response seems pretty charged and it did make me feel a little attacked, but I can understand that it comes from a place of limited information, since there was only so much I could share in my original post.

Yes, I meant no ill will. I just thought you all rushed things a bit, and didn't read enough about quads/triads to seem to understand what the common pitfalls of these are.

We are holding off on sex since we don't wanna proceed too quickly without making sure everyone is comfortable with the situation.

Good.

I did do research going into it, maybe not as much as I should have, but I did familiarize myself with what it meant to be poly through various online resources, including this forum.

I'm surprised you didn't read about how quads and triads often don't work out. This all might have gone better if you hadn't all proceeded with the "couples first" mindset, and just you and Lily started exploring your inner lesbianism. Oh, well. Moving forward... (I'm more saying that as a warning to other newbies reading your thread.)

I have emotionally connected with Lily and Josh, which I believe does make it a poly exploration, since it's a relationship thing rather than a swinging physicality thing.

Yes, that part is poly, but the idea of you and Ted being "us against the world" and having to only date as a unit, is a mono-normative or swinger mindset. And many swingers do form close friendships with their sex partners over time. Sometimes their relationships actually end up more in the polyamorous category. But generally it's expected they won't

I don't mean to say you're actually swingers, as I told Seasoned.

You're free to date as a unit, of course, but be aware that MF couples looking for that hot bi babe unicorn rarely, if ever, find one.

This is a short and helpful article:

The Most Skipped Step When Opening a Relationship

You’ve had hundreds of hours of discussions on what your open relationship will look like? Check!

medium.com

Oh shoot, you need to sign up for an account to read that now.