Religion, politics, sex .. and other taboo subjects

It could be because "semetic" is a very broad term. In ancient times groups were regional and isolated. That is probably why there are distinctive genes for different regions. Whether or not that should be called a "race" is debatable at this point. This discussion does make ne want to look more into it. I've been wanting to take one of those tests for fun.

I think racists might get a little surprise if they took one of those tests. Who knows how much of the people they hate are in them?
 
I think racists might get a little surprise if they took one of those tests. Who knows how much of the people they hate are in them?

My big surprise was that I am 44% of the Tuscan region, so almost half Italian. That's been a mind bender (in a good way. :) )
But yeah, we all know the family lore that has been handed to us, and obviously what we see in the mirror, but DNA shows that there are plenty of secret liaisons and secret babies in everyone's lineage.

Jews are a micro minority that have historically lived rather insularly by choice and by circumstance, while also being culturally visible wherever they go. Perhaps this contributes to the unique genetic markers. I believe the Amish have a few similar such unique genetic markers.
 
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My big surprise was that I am 44% of the Tuscan region, so almost half Italian. That's been a mind bender (in a good way. :) )

So, by now you have learned how to make a good hot bowl of pappa al pomodoro, ehy?
 
A conundrum, or more --

Can Israel be said to be a democracy if it prohibits non-Jews from being citizens?

(Clearly, as that is in effect, the nation has resolved the question of "who is really a Jew?" -- right?)

(If it's genetic, how can "converts" be at all valid? If it's cultural, how can someone not raised in the culture from birth EVER be a peer?)

Should the United States similarly ban non-Christians from citizenship? If that's a bad idea, why is it also not a bad idea for other "democratic" nations? As a democracy, shouldn't the United States question such practices, publicly & frequently?
 
As for those DNA tests, I do think that some people need to be talked down off the proverbial ledge. :D It's one thing to have a relatively benign FAD, but unpleasant stuff starts to hit the fan when it ramps up to a MANIA.

A couple weeks ago, I heard an interview with a woman who did the "spit in a tube" test -- really, they don't even use a proper cheek swab anymore?? :eek: -- as did her sister, sent in to the same company, & they were surprised when they received distinctively different genetic profiles. As their looks are very similar, & clearly from BOTH sides, they didn't assume that Mom had ben sleeping around. :p

The company replied, pointing out that there ARE variants in the genetic data each child receives... but, really, this struck me as not ony a bit mealy-mouthed but differing radically with the TONE (if not objective content) of the marketing pitch.

People are getting the end result of a string of "surmises" & they're gullible enough -- please read the article in my tagline FFI :rolleyes: -- to not even wonder HOW those "facts" were achieved.

Generally, such a surmise works something like
  • the subject has marker W
  • marker W is associated with people from Flanders
Looks simple enough. That's called "marketing." :) See all the surmises there? First line, rather than "has," should more properly be like "appears to present, as far as we can determine with such a quick-&-dirty lab test, & based on prior statistics that are maybe a little questionable around the edges."

Similarly, the second line deserves caveats like "people who maybe have marker W (see previous) & say that their heritage is largely from Flanders according to unresearched family lore."

Even the causality breaks down. Linking a given subject's W to Flanders (even with a credible database for comparison) is more something like "almost always -- or maybe mostly, or at least more often than the other hundred options."

THis is nothing new: 23andme.com got into trouble with the FDA four years ago, & are apparently feeling brave enough to go back there.

The "DNA tests" are amusing enough, & ought to be treated as an amusement, & maybe a basis for further actual research, rather than taken at superficial face value like so much other lazy-ass Facebookish quackery. "There's a sucker born every minute" seems to radically understate the situation.

But lately I'm seeing the purveyors push these kits as health-related. I'm concerned that we're about to see a wave of people use these highly tenuous results to go off "doctor shopping" for medical treatment they DO NOT NEED, & in fact might kill them.

(But, well, maybe that's the point: some modern eugenicists can use social-media techniques to stampede people who're "too stupid to live" into death via medical misadventure. It's "The Marching Morons" brought to realization. :cool:)
 
The "DNA tests" are amusing enough, & ought to be treated as an amusement, & maybe a basis for further actual research, rather than taken at superficial face value like so much other lazy-ass Facebookish quackery. "There's a sucker born every minute" seems to radically understate the situation.

I'm not sure who you're referring to as a sucker, but the kit I used is the Genoproject (a non-profit study in process for 13 years now) with National Geographic. The results I received are 20 pages long and quite extensive. I have the impression that there's a lot more to this than "Facebook quackery," but I'll take your point that not all DNA tests are created equal.
 
I'm not sure who you're referring to as a sucker
Anyone who WANTS to be gullible. ;)

If it's not replicable (multiple times by the same lab), it's not science. If it's not reproducible (across the methodologies of different labs), it's not science.

Neither replicability nor reproducibility is pursued at all often. Therefore, taken as a whole, "pop culture" genetics is not scientific. Anyone who claims it's factual is gullible.

Here's a comparison of four services --
https://familyhistorydaily.com/genealogy-help-and-how-to/ancestry-dna-tests-comparison-guide/
Clearly, services aren't interchangeable, some having certain specialties & totally neglecting others. The article has some sharp comments:
Each of these companies has strengths and weaknesses when it comes to this [ancestry] calculation, and in the reports it provides to users.

Unfortunately, the results from these reports are still far from being highly accurate or refined and results need to placed within the context of solid genealogical research, and further reading, comparisons and analysis, to be properly understood.

None of these tests will be able to perfectly pinpoint what country or countries your ancestors came from – but all will provide fairly accurate regions to explore. And while each test will tell you, for instance, if you have recent Native American ancestry, none can tell you what tribe or band those ancestors came from.

Finding small percentages of unexpected ethnicities may prove to be inaccurate upon further examination, and NOT finding traces of a certain group ... may not necessarily prove that you do not have ancestors from that region or group.

Even large percentages can be hopelessly misplaced so remember to combine your results with your research for the best results.
There are many dozens of articles online that compare the features offered by the various vendors, but I see few that compare results even between two vendors. Hopefully, Consumer Reports will get around to beating up on this. :cool:

It's mostly a matter of marketing, & using media to create a fad. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose --
2010, CBS News: "DNA Home Kits "No Practical Use to Consumers," Says Governent Report"
The title says it all: "Direct-to-Consumer Genetic Tests: Misleading Test Results Are Further Complicated by Deceptive Marketing and Other Questionable Practices."
2010, ABC News: "Mail-in Genetic Testing Unreliable, Misleading"
"Sixty-eight percent of the time our donors received different predictions for the same disease," Kutz told the subcommittee. ... One donor was even told that he had average, below average, and above average risk for prostate cancer and hypertension. Another was told that he was at low genetic risk for atrial fibrillation, even though he had been implanted with a pacemaker for atrial fibrillation 13 years ago.

Questionable practices and deceptive marketing were also displayed by the companies and their websites, with one donor being told that she could secretly collect her fiance's DNA sample to "surprise" him, even though this breach of privacy is illegal in at least 29 states

Nutritional supplements supposedly tailored to the donor's DNA were advertised as able to replace prescription medications for high blood pressure and high cholesterol

None of the genetic tests currently offered to consumers have undergone FDA premarket review. The agency recently sent letters to a number of companies informing them that their products appear to meet the definition of a medical device.
________________

The results I received are 20 pages long and quite extensive.
I'm getting around to trying one (23andme). We're not genealogy nuts, but pretty aware of the previous five or six generations, & where they got on the boat ;) so a half-decent means to spot any obvious "crap factor."

I won't be surprised if the report is largely filler, either referring vaguely to my admixture, or bragging about how cool the company is for doing this, or gassing on about genealogy.

Last month, I found among Mom's effects a "family history" book she bought back in the early '70s, probably from some magazine ad. My birth surname is rather obscure, so there's only ~25 pages of printouts of people around the world with that surname (mostly in this state, & most of those in this town).

The full book is like 100 pages. After an initial rah-rah "all about YOUR family" intro, it launches into a chapter about how genealogy works... then a chapter about heraldry... then a chapter about immigration...

Really, aside from the aforementioned list of names & addresses, there was nothing about my family. The town from which we received the name isn't mentioned, much less its heraldic crest; there's not even translation of the name (some rather basic Dutch) which explains the town's key purpose.

Yet I'm certain the company had many satisfied customers.
 
It could be because "semetic" is a very broad term. In ancient times groups were regional and isolated. That is probably why there are distinctive genes for different regions. Whether or not that should be called a "race" is debatable at this point.

It definitely depends on how ancient you're talking. It also depends on whether there are geographical impediments that are truly isolating. People can be very persistent. I do know of a Mexican people called the Huichol that were so isolated until recently, because of a mountainous region, that they were never conquered, either by another tribe, or by the Spanish.

But if we are talking Palestine? Yeah, not so much. The entire area had trade routes and was conquered by the armies of various close-by empires going back to earliest written history, and most likely long before that.

If we are talking current era (1st century AD or CE), the Galilee region depicted in the New Testament Gospels as a sleepy rural isolated area, where Jesus was raised as such a devout Jew? Was known back then in the Judean cosmopolitan city of Jerusalem to the south as the Galilee of the Gentiles. Greek was spoken by most. (The New Testament was written in Greek, not Hebrew. Jesus is made to speak Aramaic a couple of times.) There was a vigorous fishing trade from the "Sea" (lake) of Galilee, and the fishermen and fish traders dried and salted and shipped their fish all over the area, hundreds of miles in every direction in the Roman empire.

In Jerusalem the Temple at that time had been rebuilt in the Greek style, with a Greek style gymnasium right next door for naked sports.
This discussion does make me want to look more into it. I've been wanting to take one of those tests for fun.

I think racists might get a little surprise if they took one of those tests. Who knows how much of the people they hate are in them?

Well, as Ravenscroft points out, they could take 3 tests and get 3 different results, it seems. So if they didn't like the 3% Nigerian of their first test, they could just take another test lol
 
My Mom did Ancestry's DNA test. She found a cousin through this, and the cousin found her... And evidently the testing showed my Mom as the mother of this cousin's child (which is impossible) also. However, family disclosures had revealed the actual connection. Mom's father (my grandpa) has a brother, now deceased, Uncle Pete. Uncle Pete slept with a woman, knocked her up, but then refused to have anything to do with her and the child and moved on with his life. The woman did her best to forget all about him. The resulting baby was this cousin that my Mom has found, and she found out about her paternity as an adult, so she had been trying to figure out who in the world she was truly related to. Fortunately, the woman's family was well off enough that Uncle Pete's abandonment didn't put them into poverty. But yeah, she never got to meet her actual father, he was dead by the time she found out who he was.

My Mom and this cousin are now enjoying a happy relationship over the phone, and planning a visit, they are, as Mom says, "thick as thieves."

Personally, the notion of sending my DNA sample to some company, who will then own the information and do whatever they want with it, bothers me. I'm not specifically saying they're going to do anything I don't want them to, but I just...I don't trust it. It's uncomfortable. So I won't. I feel reasonably solid in the knowledge of who my family members are, and I've done some research on the family tree, my data is not 100% complete or accurate, but for entertainment and idle curiosity, it's enough. I'll pass on the DNA testing.
 
the notion of sending my DNA sample to some company, who will then own the information and do whatever they want with it, bothers me.
I've lived most of my life with concerns about creeping Big Brotherism. Now that I'm old & slow, the concern is diminished, but persists.

Let's say that at some point in the future I'm lying low against some totalitarian regime led by a raving Rightist lunatic President For Life. (Far-fetched, right? :D)
Knowing me, I'd probably wind up lending at least a little support to The Resistance. While I'd never leave a fingerprint, there would likely be stray skil cells or hairs, so no way (but surveillance or snitching) to link me to the operation.

...unless someone send that pesky DNA through the "private" databases.

Even if I withhold my sample, a random scan of DNA from a relative (kids, nieces, nephews, etc.) would pop up all sorts of similarity flags to evidence found by the Gestapo.

Well, two decades ago, friends said I was paranoid for warning them about the identity-theft potential the Internet would soon offer. ;) YMMV.
 
I've lived most of my life with concerns about creeping Big Brotherism. Now that I'm old & slow, the concern is diminished, but persists.

Let's say that at some point in the future I'm lying low against some totalitarian regime led by a raving Rightist lunatic President For Life. (Far-fetched, right? :D)
Knowing me, I'd probably wind up lending at least a little support to The Resistance. While I'd never leave a fingerprint, there would likely be stray skil cells or hairs, so no way (but surveillance or snitching) to link me to the operation.

...unless someone send that pesky DNA through the "private" databases.

Even if I withhold my sample, a random scan of DNA from a relative (kids, nieces, nephews, etc.) would pop up all sorts of similarity flags to evidence found by the Gestapo.

Well, two decades ago, friends said I was paranoid for warning them about the identity-theft potential the Internet would soon offer. ;) YMMV.

Yeah, well. I'm not comfortable with game systems with webcams on all the time in my home, either. Echoes, and Dots and the cable company wanting to install security cams. Stuff like that....just NO THANKS. I know my cell phone is always listening, and that annoys me quite enough as it is.

Honestly it does not have to be about the imagined scenario of "what do you think will happen?" For me, it is enough to say that the discomfort I have with it outweighs the potential gains from doing it.

My cell phone has a high degree of everyday utility for me. So I cope with that. Facebook...well, yeah, that's pretty intrusive, but I have a personal rule that I never, ever discuss work or politics or serious things on there. I will talk about bands, about cats, about humorous things, maybe even kink (because I don't care who knows) but I don't like to have "debates" or spout off about loaded subjects. I prefer forums for that lol...sometimes.
 
Okay, here's a totally random racism thing.

I've been watching the first episodes of CW's Black Lightning. When I first saw it announced, I figured ":rolleyes: wow, yeh, a token superhero, & whitewashed at that." I mean, like, it's THE network of teen white drama, right?

It has totally kicked my butt.

Even if you don't like "comics" shows, you really ought to watch this. Five episodes in, I am seeing real presentations of how my (for lack of a better term) African-American friends would deal with life.

Best episode thus far, the lead (after years out of the game) passes up an elevator ride:
I'm gonna take the stairs. I'm just getting back into this. A brother needs all the exercise he can get.

There's conflict within the urban community, & with/against the police (with a black man at the helm). It comes across as bare-bones honest, shot through with amazing wit. Right now, in this nation & culture, this is possibly THE most subversive show on all of TV.
 
It definitely depends on how ancient you're talking. It also depends on whether there are geographical impediments that are truly isolating. People can be very persistent. I do know of a Mexican people called the Huichol that were so isolated until recently, because of a mountainous region, that they were never conquered, either by another tribe, or by the Spanish.

But if we are talking Palestine? Yeah, not so much. The entire area had trade routes and was conquered by the armies of various close-by empires going back to earliest written history, and most likely long before that.

If we are talking current era (1st century AD or CE), the Galilee region depicted in the New Testament Gospels as a sleepy rural isolated area, where Jesus was raised as such a devout Jew? Was known back then in the Judean cosmopolitan city of Jerusalem to the south as the Galilee of the Gentiles. Greek was spoken by most. (The New Testament was written in Greek, not Hebrew. Jesus is made to speak Aramaic a couple of times.) There was a vigorous fishing trade from the "Sea" (lake) of Galilee, and the fishermen and fish traders dried and salted and shipped their fish all over the area, hundreds of miles in every direction in the Roman empire.

In Jerusalem the Temple at that time had been rebuilt in the Greek style, with a Greek style gymnasium right next door for naked sports.


Well, as Ravenscroft points out, they could take 3 tests and get 3 different results, it seems. So if they didn't like the 3% Nigerian of their first test, they could just take another test lol

I was thinking more along the lines of cultures didn't mix with other cultures. Sure, there were probably instances of it occurring, but not enough to akter a group's genetic makeup.
 
I was thinking more along the lines of cultures didn't mix with other cultures. Sure, there were probably instances of it occurring, but not enough to akter a group's genetic makeup.

Keep in mind that Palestine was under Greek, then Roman rule for hundreds of years, 300 BCE-400 CE. Most people in the Roman Empire were slaves. I think only 1/4 were considered free citizens? So, most of the Hebrews were technically slaves of the Empire, with no real rights. I imagine that the Hebrew genetic line was intermixed by rape quite a bit. I know Hebrews/Jews have always made a point to keep their line as pure as possible, however. There are jokes about "Why can't you find yourself a nice Jewish girl/boy?" for a reason.

But since Jews have been second class citizens for millennia, there has been plenty of rape and mixing of genes, against their will. Many Jews were also forced to convert to Christianity. Many young Jews also rebel and choose leave Judaism for the larger presiding culture...
 
"Trial of the Century" is back in business

Moments ago I decided to check in again (after many such tries -- it was a long stall) about the "Trial of the Century," which is what some have called a lawsuit known as Juliana v. United States. The case was temporarily stalled on its path to trial by the Trump administration, but just today it was announced that the path to trial will continue. Yay! You go, kids! :)


Federal court denies Trump’s last-ditch attempt to derail the youth climate lawsuit

The Ninth Circuit found that the administration's petition against the case was "entirely premature."
Natasha Geiling
Mar 7, 2018, 2:34 pm
https://thinkprogress.org/federal-court-denies-trump-writ-mandamus-climate-lawsuit-4c489af5dad2/

One can hardly blame the kids for wanting to have a livable planet to... well, to live upon.



No Ordinary Lawsuit: Juliana v. United States is a Landmark Precedent for Climate Change Legislation
http://www.jurist.org/forum/2017/01/Gabriela-Steier-juliana-v-united-states.php


Juliana, et al. v. United States of America, et al.
Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juliana_v._US
 
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Screw it. I have been thinking something...whenever I see the president, or his trophy wife, or when I see videos of speeches that Obama has given, I think, "Damn. I really miss the Obama family. They were so fucking dignified compared to this." And even, as I think about it, compared to other First Families. Obama spoke so much more intelligently and eloquently (and with that dry wit!) compared to George W. "Write my Speech in Nu-kyu-ler Crayon" Bush...and Barack and Michelle were so loving and genuine and not a mess of scandal like Bill and Hillary. Well, he sounds less like a car salesman than Bill did, too. Really though, I am realizing how much I took Obama for granted.

Go back and watch some of his speeches. He's just so smart, and real. I feel pretty bad, that I didn't pay more attention and appreciate him more when we had him in office, you know?

I'm no dedicated liberal, I'm an indie voter, and I'm pretty skeptical and untrusting and not usually a big fan of "politicians" and I can tinfoil hat with the best of 'em, but... Obama though. He was pretty good, actually.

So I just sent him an email and told him so. *shrug*

I thanked him for his service in office. I apologized that I took him for granted. I praised his poise and his family. Because you know...sometimes, it's just nice to be appreciated.

There are times, frankly, these days...I am really surprised that the fumes from that trumpster fire ablaze in DC have not choked us all to death.
 
That's really nice of you Spork. I, being older, and having lived through many fucked up administrations, Nixon, Reagan, the Bushes, totally appreciated Obama when he was in office. With a hint of sadness knowing it wouldn't last. Never did I expect SUCH a shit president as tRump though. It's terrifying and exhausting and is causing so much pain, especially to women and minorities.

It's so disgusting that tRump's approval rating has actually gone UP a few points with men since the Stormy Daniel's shit starting hitting the fan. Yes, it's gone down with women, so it balances out, but it's still incredibly disturbing tRump's disgusting sex life actually inspires pride in some men.

As for us all not dying from the septic fumes, people ARE dying... :(
 
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That's really nice of you Spork. I, being older, and having lived through many fucked up administrations, Nixon, Reagan, the Bushes, totally appreciated Obama when he was in office. With a hint of sadness knowing it wouldn't last. Never did I expect SUCH a shit president as tRump though. It's terrifying and exhausting and is causing so much pain, especially to women and minorities.

It's so disgusting that tRump's approval rating has actually gone UP a few points with men since the Stormy Daniel's shit starting hitting the fan. Yes, it's gone down with women, so it balances out, but it's still incredibly disturbing any men find tRump's disgusting sex life actually inspires pride in some men.

As for us all not dying from the septic fumes, people ARE dying... :(

Yes. I suppose I mean...being able to walk out my front door every morning, and the sun is still shining, the birds are singing, I have a job, MY (privileged as fuck) life is still going ok... Yet knowing not only that trump is still in office doing untold damage to the nation and our standing in the world, AND that potentially all around me are people who actually thought he'd be a good idea as president? Who celebrate this disgusting person and what he stands for?

It's kind of surreal. I feel like I should step out the front door and it would look, rather, like a scene out of "Pink Floyd, The Wall" or something.

And I wonder, for those who don't leave the house enough and watch a lot more news than me, if they feel like it IS that way out there?

Or...worse...?

My ex informed me at one point that all the Muslims we are letting into the country are surrounding women like me on the street, and gang raping us, right out in public, and that I am going to be real sorry I did not keep him in my life to protect me, but my safety just isn't his problem anymore.

I sometimes feel like he lives in a weird little hole with a direct feed of Fox News streaming in, obsessing over military and conspiracy websites. I want to ask, "Have you actually been outside lately? Where other human beings are?"
 
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