Renegotiated partnerships

[tealheron11]

I have posted here before about my poly experiences/relationships. I am married and live long distance from my husband, and have another male partner who I live close to and more or less consider primary.

This has been a roller coaster over the past 3 years. I have moved several times, tried to understand what these relationships are, basically followed my partner across the country - kind of became mono with him, seemed like we were actually on the relationship escalator but then he changes his mind. About every 3 months he has an emotional boiling point where he sort of breaks up with me, but turns into a renegotiation. He has brought up marriage with me before, but when these break up talks happen he says he doesn’t think he’ll be happy with me and wants me to find someone else. But then when we talk and he realizes I don’t expect marriage and I’m not making assumptions based on how we are going, it smooths things over. This partner identifies as mono, but opened up to me as a partner and we have an understanding that we can both see other people. We both talk to people on dating sites and have made friends but nothing has happened. He says he gets complacent with our relationship but doesn’t want me to have expectations about what will happen in the future. Mind you 3 months ago he asked again if I would want to have a child with him and get married. I told him we needed to revisit this because I know how he changes his mind - and here we are!

My thing is this - I don’t equate sharing space, seeing each other a lot, sharing expenses with the relationship escalator. I don’t expect marriage or think that’s what will happen. I believe his mono programming does, and I can reassure him and show him I’m talking to other people so he doesn’t think I’m waiting around, yet he still struggles with fighting these assumptions. I also am needy and can be insecure - because I fear losing the relationship and being replaced. This has nothing to do with not getting married or not, but fear of him replacing me and losing his love. I realize this is my crap to own and work on. But I think my insecurity and at times insecure attachment triggers this thought In him that I think this has to end one way. I am scared of losing this connection and trying to process how to cope with the back and forth and what I really think I need. Meanwhile I am talking to people on dating sites and using my husband and friends for support.

How do you cope with unsettling changes in relationships? How do you communicate with people who aren’t as flexible in beliefs about relationships mean and are?

I am open partner and I can be even more transparent to avoid future boiling points. I plan to remove my belongings from his home so it isn’t a “omg she’s living here” trigger (I have my own apartment but see partner every day and sleep over weekends and whenever we feel like a sleep over)

 

[kdt26417]

Hi teal,

I wonder if your partner (Rhaegar?) is fixated on the idea that you supposedly want him to marry you, and he tries to fit himself into that mold, but that doesn't work, which makes him feel all uncomfortable and even exasperated, and then he wants to throw up his hands and break up with you. And while you assure him that you don't need him to marry you, he has a hard time believing that on a subconscious level, due to his monogamous mindset. Like, he doesn't want to be mono (marriage/the escalator), but he doesn't know how to be anything else. Does that sound about right?

Can I ask, has he done much reading/research on what open/poly is, or does he mostly rely on you to represent it for him? Maybe the lack of familiarity is part of what makes it difficult for him to embrace poly. I wonder if he would be willing to do reading assignments? possibly even register as a member on this forum and participate here? In this world, we are so surrounded by mono reinforcement, it's easy to be familiar with mono (and adopt that mindset), not so easy to be familiar with poly. You have to intentionally build familiarity, you can't just wait for it to happen.

Or maybe he has already studied poly thoroughly, and it is something else?
Just some thoughts,
Kevin T.

 

[vinsanity0]

I would just find someone else who is mature enough to handle a relationship.

 

[Amygdala]

I'm a bit confused

You say you are married and have a husband and a partner who is mono but has meltdowns over marriage to you

Does he think you will divorce your husband for him?

or that he ''should' marry you if he is to have a ''real'' relationship with you?

He seems to be fixated on marriage.

and...

Mind you 3 months ago he asked again if I would want to have a child with him and get married. I told him we needed to revisit this because I know how he changes his mind - and here we are!

can be taken by him that you are open at a later date to consider marriage and children with him... but again, doesn't he realize you are already married?

but yes, mono programming makes mono men and women convinced they must have their 'own' person or it's not real or right

 

[tealheron11]

Hi teal,

I wonder if your partner (Rhaegar?) is fixated on the idea that you supposedly want him to marry you, and he tries to fit himself into that mold, but that doesn't work, which makes him feel all uncomfortable and even exasperated, and then he wants to throw up his hands and break up with you. And while you assure him that you don't need him to marry you, he has a hard time believing that on a subconscious level, due to his monogamous mindset. Like, he doesn't want to be mono (marriage/the escalator), but he doesn't know how to be anything else. Does that sound about right?

Can I ask, has he done much reading/research on what open/poly is, or does he mostly rely on you to represent it for him? Maybe the lack of familiarity is part of what makes it difficult for him to embrace poly. I wonder if he would be willing to do reading assignments? possibly even register as a member on this forum and participate here? In this world, we are so surrounded by mono reinforcement, it's easy to be familiar with mono (and adopt that mindset), not so easy to be familiar with poly. You have to intentionally build familiarity, you can't just wait for it to happen.

Or maybe he has already studied poly thoroughly, and it is something else?
Just some thoughts,
Kevin T.

BINGO!!! You hit the nail on the head and actually were able to conceptualize this better than I explained it. It’s like there is this subconscious belief that because we are so close and spend so much time together, it must mean I want to marry or I expect that because that’s been every other relationship he’s had before. We keep coming back to this place because we aren’t getting married - and while I’m going with the flow, I think he percolates on stuff and ends up thinking we can’t be involved if we aren’t heading that direction. But then he is able to challlenge that belief when we actually talk through things. I won’t say I am not open to marriage with him and I would divorce my husband for him (btw husband knows everything and is supportive of whatever I decide) except that this partner waivers so much it makes me not trust his words or actions. I have been waiting for some kind of proof and I am yet to have it - I think what will be the determining factor is if we both start seeing people and of the relationship continues to stay as strong. I think that’ll either help him embrace poly more, decide he wants to be mono with someone else, or actually want to stay with me and reconsider. In terms of sharing resources with him, I would like him to read this stuff but I don’t want him to think I’m imposing poly on him (I’ve sent him stuff before). Right now I bought him a book on attachment styles - I think that’s a good place to start to better understand how he is in relationships and maybe gain some understanding of this limbo we are always in.

 

[tealheron11]

I would just find someone else who is mature enough to handle a relationship.

If it only were that easy to just replace a 2.5 year intimate relationship with a new person, I’d have done it.

 

[tealheron11]

I'm a bit confused

You say you are married and have a husband and a partner who is mono but has meltdowns over marriage to you

Does he think you will divorce your husband for him?

or that he ''should' marry you if he is to have a ''real'' relationship with you?

He seems to be fixated on marriage.

and... can be taken by him that you are open at a later date to consider marriage and children with him... but again, doesn't he realize you are already married?

but yes, mono programming makes mono men and women convinced they must have their 'own' person or it's not real or right

You are right - it’s the mono programming. I think that’s a big part of this. In terms of the marriage conversations, he knows I’m married and also knows I’d get divorced if he seriously wanted to marry me and a concerted effort was placed on that goal. We have talked about it every time this comes up - I don’t see a reason to get divorced from my healthy connection to my husband unless this partner flat out asked me and made it clear he wanted this. He has waivered so much I don’t trust it when he says it without more clear actions. My husband knows everything btw and is supportive no matter what. To him marriage doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter to me either - but it IS important to this partner and I am willing to fulfill that need IF he really brought it to the table and stopped this up and down patterns every time he has a negative thought about the relationship. Thanks for listening!

 

[vinsanity0]

If it only were that easy to just replace a 2.5 year intimate relationship with a new person, I’d have done it.

Are you interested in people or relationships? Every relationship is different so a person can't be replaced. Fear of being alone or not finding a perfect mate is no reason to stay in a bad relationship. Staying in a bad relationship because you feel you have time invested is not healthy either. Waiting around for someone better is not healthy either. Thinking you can change a person is not healthy either.

The alternative is to just accept the relationship for what it is - a relationship that is going nowhere and could end at any moment. Is that what you really want?

 

[kdt26417]

Hi teal,

It sounds like your best bet is if he (Rhaegar) would recognize what style of attachment he has, and also, he needs to decide whether he really wants marriage, or if he is only suggesting it because he thinks that's what will please you. He doesn't need to embrace poly, but he does need to stop letting mono doctrine reign over his mindset. He needs to have an independent frame of mind. At least that's what I think.

Respects/regards,
Kevin T.

 

[Amygdala]

You are right - it’s the mono programming. I think that’s a big part of this. In terms of the marriage conversations, he knows I’m married and also knows I’d get divorced if he seriously wanted to marry me .......
but it IS important to this partner and I am willing to fulfill that need IF he really brought it to the table and stopped this up and down patterns every time he has a negative thought about the relationship. Thanks for listening!

Ah, ok marriage is just a bit of legal paperwork to your husband and you, but is a meaningful real relationship paperwork to your other.

Are you monogamous by nature? It may well be IF you marry Mr back n forth, he might then expect you to be mono as well....and thus give up seeing your then ex husband.

 

[JaneQSmythe]

The alternative is to just accept the relationship for what it is - a relationship that is going nowhere and could end at any moment. Is that what you really want?

I am going to take this out of context to ask - Why does it sound like you are asking that like it is a bad thing?

"a relationship that is going nowhere" - where, exactly, does it need to go? Why is stepping off the relationship escalator right here a bad thing? What destination are you envisioning other than enjoying another person's company? It doesn't sound like the OP is invested in a "children and a white picket fence future" so, why stress?

ANY relationship "could end at any moment" - accident, illness, diverging interests, revelations of incompatible values - that is true for short-or-long term relationship, marriage-vs-not-marriage relationship, mono-or-poly relationship, etc. This implies that no-one should engage in any relationship ever because the "could end"...

"Is that what you really want?" Honestly, to me it sounds like OP is actually fine with "that" - it is her boyfriend who struggles and she is asking how to cope with his struggling - which is a different question.

 

[vinsanity0]

I am going to take this out of context to ask - Why does it sound like you are asking that like it is a bad thing?

"a relationship that is going nowhere" - where, exactly, does it need to go? Why is stepping off the relationship escalator right here a bad thing? What destination are you envisioning other than enjoying another person's company? It doesn't sound like the OP is invested in a "children and a white picket fence future" so, why stress?

ANY relationship "could end at any moment" - accident, illness, diverging interests, revelations of incompatible values - that is true for short-or-long term relationship, marriage-vs-not-marriage relationship, mono-or-poly relationship, etc. This implies that no-one should engage in any relationship ever because the "could end"...

"Is that what you really want?" Honestly, to me it sounds like OP is actually fine with "that" - it is her boyfriend who struggles and she is asking how to cope with his struggling - which is a different question.

Those are valid questions. By"going nowhere" I was referring to the relationship being in a state of constant flux, not particularly referring to the relationship escalator. I agree with you that a relationship doesn't have to ride the escalator to be satisfying.

I think you are taking things to an extreme with your second point. Maybe we'll all nuke each other so there is no real reason to live...lol. In this instance we are talking about a poly relationship with a mono person who keeps flaking. I'm thinking of the constant dread of not knowing, which is brought on by the actions of the partner.

And finally, is she really fine with all that? She probably wouldn't be asking if she was fine. Clearly this is stressful. I will always ask if the stress is worth it. Maybe it is for her.

 

[GalaGirl]

I'm sorry you struggle.

About every 3 months he has an emotional boiling point where he sort of breaks up with me, but turns into a renegotiation.

It sounds like he has his place, you have your place, you sometimes sleep over. You don't expect marriage and you are happy in a long term dating thing. (Are you?)

You sound like you would be up for monogamy if he gave a stronger indication that he wants to get married. (Do you?)

What causes the emotional boiling point then? That HE is not happy in a long term dating but uncertain thing? He wants to be on the relationship escalator? Do you? Because if you don't, could let the next time he breaks up with you be it. Do not renegotiate any more and let it go. Then you don't have these up and down things any more. It can be done.

He has brought up marriage with me before, but when these break up talks happen he says he doesn’t think he’ll be happy with me and wants me to find someone else.

Is this push-pull stuff?

Alternately... is it that he wants to invest more but with you still being married X years later and making no movement to dissolve it -- it's a turn off to him?

Isn't that the same gridlock as before? Like...

• Him -- I'm not gonna propose until they get divorced.
• You -- I'm not gonna get divorced until he proposes.

So it ends up circling?

But then when we talk and he realizes I don’t expect marriage and I’m not making assumptions based on how we are going, it smooths things over.

Really smooths over, or just kicks the can down the road again? Only to come up again later?

This partner identifies as mono, but opened up to me as a partner and we have an understanding that we can both see other people. We both talk to people on dating sites and have made friends but nothing has happened. He says he gets complacent with our relationship but doesn’t want me to have expectations about what will happen in the future.

Actually you CAN have expectations about the future you want for yourself. He either is compatible with it or not.

Is he compatible?

Mind you 3 months ago he asked again if I would want to have a child with him and get married. I told him we needed to revisit this because I know how he changes his mind - and here we are!

Why didn't you just answer him? If yes, could say "Yes, I would consider it. Not any time soon, but yes. I would consider it."

It sounds like it is back to the old problem where neither one wants to speak PLAIN.

He has waivered so much I don’t trust it when he says it without more clear actions.

Understandable. But it isn't like YOU are giving firm clear answers or clear actions either. He asks you something and you put off answering. How can he trust that?

I am willing to fulfill that need IF he really brought it to the table and stopped this up and down patterns every time he has a negative thought about the relationship.

What if this is just how he is? He goes through these up and down mood cycles. Can you live with that?

My husband knows everything btw and is supportive no matter what. To him marriage doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter to me either - but it IS important to this partner

So if it doesn't matter to either you and husband? Why do you remain married to each other this many years later?

Is THAT what's bothering the BF? That you and husband seem "whatever" about marriage when it's a really big deal to him?

So he's hesitant to commit here because you still have old ties, seem "whatever" and non-committal?

Plus your not-quite-ex-husband and you are super close and tell each other things about (your relationship with BF). Does that bug BF?

Like he has to deal with the "ghost husband" around all the time so how can BF ever be the husband then? So then he's not sure he wants to be in this relationship with you and a ghost?

Back in this post you had plans to file for divorce.

I won’t say I am not open to marriage with him and I would divorce my husband for him (btw husband knows everything and is supportive of whatever I decide) except that this partner waivers so much it makes me not trust his words or actions.

So to your BF, it might be the same kind of thing. You say one thing, and then seem to waiver on doing it. Cuz here you are still married. So he doesn't trust you at your word either.

I could be wrong but maybe it is something to consider?

To me it sounds like you had all these plans and then nothing happened past you living in the same town. So maybe he struggles to be excited about it still? Or he struggles to ask if you are excited about it still without sticking his neck out too much?

Like neither one of you wants to be first to lay it all plain on the table even though in the past it worked out better to just be honest and put it out there even if it is scary to each of you. Like he's all guarded from his trauma and you yours.

Maybe he wants to be more excited about it, but despite a promising start? There's things in the way and there's been no movement forward on what you had both been excited about before. And your lukewarm response when he asks you stuff about kids and marriage? Which to you might be "I don't want to trigger him so I'll try to be chill and go with the flow" is coming across to him as "She is meh about our relationship. So why would I even want to invest here?"

Hence the up and downy.

You mentioned in that old post talks about living together and maybe more.

When I am there with him and we are spending time together, it's normal and fun and wonderful. I was there in mid Nov and I just went again this past weekend. I might go back end of December, too. Suddenly we have planned visits, the possibility of a future living closer together, maybe even more. He even mentioned living together which I didn't expect at all! It is reassuring but also scary.. he admitted the other week he is scared of it not working out. I was glad he admitted this and was honest. I too, am scared... scared of him changing his mind, scared of him finding someone else. He's still on tinder, whenever he updates his profile or does something on there, it really hurts me. I'm on there too, but not to meet people. I was before, but I haven't in months. I need to talk with him about it. I don't want an open relationship with him... at least not yet/now. I feel like my open marriage experience kind of "ruined" poly for me, at least for right now. I still plan on getting divorced, even though I do care about and love my husband and don't have negative feelings towards him. We want different things.

Well he didn't find someone else. So can you relax now?

But you still didn't file for divorce. You tell your not quite ex about (you and your BF). So how can BF relax? When marriage means so much to him and you are still not yet actually available for marriage?

So I think you could decide if you want to keep investing here or not.

1) If you are happy how it is, each in your own place and dating? Be emotionally honest and just tell him "No. I do not want marriage ever. I want to stop going in circles about it."

If both agree? Then BE happy. When he has his moody episodes? Accept he is sometimes moody. Talk him through and then let it go. But don't dwell on it. And do finish up your divorce process.

2) If you are wanting to move toward living together and maybe more with this BF? Then move forward with the plan to live together. And finish with your divorce process. Be emotionally honest and say "YES. I want to live together. One day I would consider marriage. Not right away. But eventually would consider talking about it."

That's agreeing to talk about it together. That's not run to the nearest city hall or church that MINUTE.

Like before, it's like neither one wants to be honest or be first one to make a move.

I guess my suggestion isn't all that different than before.

I still would suggest you become more decisive and firm of purpose about your life and make the changes you need to make. Don't spin your wheels.

Galagirl

 

[tealheron11]

Trying to update to respond to all as much as possible. I don’t know if I was clear enough in my previous posts.

BF does want to get married (in life, not necessarily to me but he wants to). He had discussed this with me about me. But when he goes through these moods, he decides he won’t be happy with me and is scared I think we are heading that direction and breaks up with me because he wants me to be happy and he doesn’t want to hold me back from finding someone else. It’s the mono programming - thinking there’s “a right person.” He cannot specifically say why he doesn’t think we’ll be happy together nor does he have examples of things I do that warrant this. To me it’s an avoidant attachment style thing and uncertainty.

I was never lukewarm in my responses about wanting to get married and have a kid, even in the most recent discussion. I told him of course I wanted those things with him - but I said let’s return to it later to discuss more because I know how he changes his mind.

BF is afraid he is leaving me on, but I understand he might not want the escalator with me and I get that. I am just confused when he does back and forth and it is painful.

Not getting divorced is because I see no reason to change that part of my life without a solid plan with BF. It isn’t just my husband - it’s about his family too. I love them very much and honestly getting divorced changes those things. BF hadn’t explicitly brought it up or asked about it and know it’s bc he doesn’t want me to change and then him change his mind again. The only reason I will ever divorce my husband is if my BF proves to me he wants marriage with me and steps up and things consistently turn around for the better. I’m sorry but I have already given up so many things in the last few years, I’m not giving that up without a good reason. If that was his reason for all the back and forth I imagine he would have told me - I have asked before and he says this is not it. He likes my husband and they get along, in fact. If BF was truly poly this would be all moot. My husband thinks BF is poly but fights it.

Anyway thank you! Things are stable again with BF after that talk and a few weeks of me being in distress- I’m going to revisit this with him after quarantine time changes a little... I’m in a different place not but still don’t want to lose the relationship!

 

[GalaGirl]

Thank you for more info.

So in a nutshell...

BF does eventually want to get married

• He is not sure you are the one he wants to marry.
• He cannot explain why or why not.
• Because he cannot articulate why or why not, he thinks he is leading you on.
• (Well, since he cannot decide after 3 years, IS he leading you on?

What would you like to happen here?

You just want the circle conversations to stop?

You would be ok being together but just never being married to each other?

You want him to articulate why or why not you as his marriage partner?

You want him to make up his mind once and for all?

Something else?

Galagirl

 

[tealheron11]

Yes - that is it.

I am tired of the “break ups” that stem from lack of communication. If we communicate better- this can be avoided. We made this clear.

I am okay with being married and I am okay with not being married. I am okay with being open or not. As long as we talk about it. I’ve been steadfast in my flexibility.

Ultimately I want this relationship/connection to last or flourish in whatever form works for us. I’m okay with either direction. I don’t think I’m being lead on- at least not when he is honest. I just need to know what to expect.

I don’t care about labels or titles, I care about the connection. I don’t want to be replaced but I can’t control if he does that - but I must not be that replaceable because he hasn’t done it yet.

I expect this to continue to be up and down but hopefully with less downs and more stability. I am here now giving it my best. I wouldn’t continue to hang in there if I didn’t see the value in this.

 

[GalaGirl]

If your greatest want is more stability, how do you want to create it for yourself when he is moody? Since listening to his moody episodes causes YOU discomfort, you may have to be firm of purpose there.

Maybe tell him "No, thanks. We've had this circle conversation before. If you need to process this again, it has to be with someone else. Not me. Because my answer hasn't changed -- I am ok married or not married. I want to be with you either way."

Then step back and let him calm on his own. Cuz you aren't the one cranking him up.

If he's cranking his own self up, he's got to figure out how not to do that. WITHOUT spreading it around and cranking YOU up.

Galagirl