sifting through the ashes

At this point, I would only respond with the following:

FlameKat said:
T,

You are missed deeply, by both of us. Knowing that you are hurting weighs on my mind a great deal.

You need no excuse to speak with me, I am here, I miss you and I want you back in our lives. As far as I am concerned, all you need to do is add me back everywhere you removed me from and we can take it step by step from there. There is no need for apology for wanting to speak with me. It costs me a great deal to respect your wish for no communication.


(FlameKat).
Click to expand...

Leave the rest for another day, when communication has actually been re-established.
 
Maca and I have instituted an unspoken "rule" between us that we bcc each other anything that may have pertinence to us.

It sounds like your communication in this situation would be one of those things.
We don't "intermix" our messages usually-it's confusing for the reader, we write separately from our own email accounts, but we cc or bcc each other, which means neither of us feels left out of the loop.

I do this with GG as well when it's important, but hte truth is that far fewer things are important to him than to Maca-so I don't fill his box with stuff he doesn't give a shit about.


In regards to how far to communicate-how does wolf feel about YOU re-establishing communication? It seems as though maybe that is a factor to how a response is worded?

As long as you're on the same page that it's ok for you to re-establish contact it should be ok that he doesn't wish to at this point...

I don't know the layout of your dynamic-sorry.
 
Hey LR - Sorry I am still figuring out how to put our intro threads into our signatures so people can go back and have a quick read.

My thread is "Not sure where to go from here" and WW's is "Loving and Understanding..."

WW is VERY hurt by the fact that T is putting effort into communicating with me... but not saying a word to him AT ALL.

We have put forward the theory that this is perhaps because I have communicated with T about my feelings, but WW hasn't - the only time they spoke on the subject was the phone call when T walked away from both of us.

The dynamic runs something like this

WW & T = 20+ yr close friendship (sacrificed by T to protect Me & WW relationship*)
Me & WW = 2+ yr ldr + engagement
Me & T = approx 18mth ld friendship (sacrificed by T to protect Me & WW relationship*)

*also I think an attempt to protect himself from the risk of letting people in that close...
 
I can see why WW would be hurt. They have a long history. It seems to me that there is some healing to do between them if anything functional is going to work out for you and T.....

:confused:
 
i'm sorry that you have been hurt.

when people leave unexpectedly, it like a sucker-punch coming out of nowhere, it totally leave you reeling.

maybe he, T, doesn't even know why he did it.

i bet when you find some peace with the situaion, Waterwolf's anger will subside.

i think you should send the note seperately, for your own peace of mind.

i hope it works out for all of you and that your heart feels less heavy real soon.
 
Venting/ranting

I have come to the conclusion that yes I should send my letter, and seperately, however, I thinkit would be best if our letters are sent close together so I am going to wait to respond until WW has written his.

That said, I am antsy about leaving it for more than a few days. I also need to reclarify how WW feels about me and T communicating... for a little while there he was going to be ok with it... now that T has actually reached out... quite a bit of anger there.

I need to be able to communicate with T... it would be nice to be able to game... but i NEED to know I can talk to whomever I choose... that is a personal boundary that is non-negotiable for me... and this situation is dragging on that boundary like nails down a chalkboard.

I understand that WW is hurt, and that he holds me to blame for it, but I cannot take responsibility for his continued refusal to sort things out. And I find it unfair that my friendship with T has to be held back by his friendship (or lack thereof)... they are two seperate (though intertwined) relationships... one should not be dependent on the other's existence. Affected by - yes... but not dependent.

I don't subscribe to the view that couples should have the same friends (though it is nice when it happens), nor do I believe that one part of a couple should stop being friends with a third person because of difficulties that third person is having with the other half of the couple.

Something that hit home for me today... WW had come back from his friend's funeral, and he is naturally being more outwardly loving, sending us hugs, love kisses, telling me how much I mean to him and how much he misses us...
how much he needs me to pass those messages on to the kids... throughout the week its been like this, extra love, extra missing, extra hurt... and the theme running through it all has been the concept of the loss he would feel if something were to happen to any of us...
My problem with this is that this is exactly what I am going through every day with the loss of T. except T isn't dead - he is just there at the other end of an email, or phone call... and the ONLY things stopping me from reaching out and figuring this all out... are my respect for T's wish to have no communication (which has now been removed) and my respect for WW's feelings...
I am starting to feel like a doormat in this situation... this is not good. ever since this all exploded, I have sat on my hands, figuring myself out. The only moves I have made are to

a) join this forum and read read read and ask questions and vent here.
b) send a bday message to T
c) send a letter detailing how I feel and what I want to both WW and T (two weeks apart - WW first)
d) respond to a xmas message from T
e) respond to a msn message from T

this is in a time period of 3 1/2 months... the rest of the time I have been holding myself in, letting WW deal with what I told him in that letter (and before that)...

To add to the fingernails on the chalkboard feeling is the fact that today I got a note from another good mate (also a guy), telling me he had specifically take a holiday from work to escort me around town for the day I get in to Brissy in a few weeks.... WW responds to this news with a 'good'... this mate and I have exactly the kind of relationship that T and I were building to - not physical - but a hell of a lot of emotion and security and support, plenty of flirting and dirty talk too... the ONLY difference is that I can see more with T and would be willing to let that develop... but because of that small difference - I can't even speak to T????

And there is the other part of me that is railing at the whole thing of how WW is scared of the What If's... and how I reassure him - that's not enough, and it will never be enough... he has to know it inside himself that he isn't going to lose me... but I wish that he would just bloody trust me.

Sorry peoples... bigtime rant but I think I got it all out... sorry if it's all over the place... please feel free to take a swing at me if I am being incredibly insensitive here and if I'm not then say so too... this is all so damn confusing...
 
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Thanks RP - definitely frustrated

any advice on how to work through this one? especially right now - I really don't want to add to WW's burdens right now... I know damn well he would see this as insensitive right now... and he'd be right... but I am really climbing walls here...
 
I bet you are... I think that there is nothing really you can do but wait... so go entertain your self and wait. I see know reason why you can't tell him how you feel and let him think you are insensitive as long as you add to that that you know that and are waiting patiently as a result...
 
Mmmm

I would be telling him anyway - we have a thing about me holding stuff in now... it's a really bad habit I got into while married and I am learning to let things out as they crop up...

Doesn't make it any less insensitive though :p

My problem is that I am really stewing over the communication barrier... I think I would probably be respectful and not go overboard with communicating with T (if of course he doesn't go into hiding again :p) but it's the thing about not being able to do so freely... I should not have to discuss it first.. I feel like I have to ask for permission and in a way I do... it makes me feel like I am 5 years old... it makes me feel like I am doing something wrong... and to be honest I think it actually feeds WW's insecurities...

because I feel like I am doing something wrong because I have to have my communication 'approved' prior to sending or responding, not to mention the feeling I have of not being trusted because of having to discuss and come to a consensus on my response - (its my bloody response)... it makes him feel justified in feeling insecure? does that make sense? If it weren't for all this - my response would have been sent yesterday as it was written in the OP...

I feel like I should put my foot down and insist he work on his friendship with T and not worry about my friendship... that I will keep him updated and hopefully as he and T work things out it will become a little circle and there will be no need for 'updating' as such...

wishful thinking huh

*note... thinking out loud there - feel free to bash that one*
 
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I know what you mean about feeling like you are five, but its just because it is foreign to your relationship I think. Maybe you could phrase it in terms of information rather than seeking permission. Tell him your plan and then ask what he thinks and feels about your plan instead. You could ask what he requires in order to feel secure for example. That way he will see you care and see taking his needs into consideration.
 
So...

WW sent his email.

T responded very quickly (within a few hours)... essentially agreeing that he had been behaving like an ass and for us to
"go in peace and I will not hurt you and yours anymore"
Click to expand...

WW's email was not overly angry... it was to the point about hurts that had been done, and anger from those... but it was also quite plainly stated that we both want T back, and for him to stop playing mind games.

I have now sent my email. I doubt he will respond - given his response to WW.

T,

I have included below the original response I had to your email. WW has shared your response to his email with me.

I am really quite gob-smacked that you choose to keep us out your life, when it is hurting us all so deeply. There is no way around causing hurt – you tell us to go in peace, that you will cause us no further hurt – sorry but that hurts... knowing that our friendships are less important to you than the walls you attempt to erect against us... the very people who love you.

Fair or unfair, I ask that you speak to me. I ask you to give me that courtesy. I am not prepared at this point to walk away, you know how I feel on that particular topic. Frankly (yes him again) – you owe me that little piece of courtesy...

FlameKat.


T,

You are missed deeply, by both of us.

Knowing that you are hurting weighs on my mind a great deal. Yes, your actions hurt me greatly, and still do. I do not hold them against you, I would like to understand better the why’s, as I really do not at the moment, and I think that contributes quite significantly to my pain.

You need no excuse to speak with me, I am here, I miss you and I want you back in our lives. As far as I am concerned, all you need to do is add me back everywhere you removed me from and we can take it step by step from there. There is no need for apology for wanting to speak with me. It costs me a great deal to respect your wish for no communication.

There is nothing unfair about talking to me. What is unfair is the choice you made to unilaterally cut us both out of your life. What is unfair is continuing to make that choice every single day. I do not understand what it is you think you do by making that choice.

Surely it would be fairer to allow both WW and myself to have a voice in whether or not you are a part of our life? Surely it would be fairer to do us the courtesy, and show us the respect, of having open, and honest, communication. Hard work, discomfort and awkwardness do not deter me from working towards something beautiful, whether it be nothing more than friendship or something deeper.

I would like to move forward and enjoy our friendship again, but I also need to have the same openness from you, that I give to you. I also need you to give that same consideration to WW (and vice versa). I want to fix this, I can’t do that alone.

Kat.
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Anyway...

There are a lot of things going on becase of this last slap in the face. Not least of which is WW's conclusion that I may never be able to let this go. And he may be right... one thing about me is when I fall - I fall deep...

I need to figure out how to let this go.... it's killing me right now - literally feeling as though my insides are being shredded and churned through some giant and slow meat grinder....

I feel abandoned. I shared so much of myself with T, he asked, he cared, he consoled... and then he just left - without a word... and well, - most have read my story now...

how do I move through this? I haven't slept properly (it's 2.30 am here) since he sent that email to me, eating isn't great... I don't know how to set it aside again...

Poor WW said he could see maybe one day going and trying himself to get T to come back for me.... and that just hurt even more... that he can see a time when he would voluntarily do that - because of the sheer pain I am in right now...

any ideas on how to push through this? any advice at all?
 
!!!!!!!!

We are going to have a talk !!!!

T responded and the boys have sorted out that we will talk in about two weeks!!!

(I am going away for a few days and if the talk goes badly WW doesn't want me stewing by myself in the middle of the outback with no communication to anyone and T is going back to work and won't be back for 2 weeks)

WW made 2 requests... the first being that the talk not happen until after my trip. The second being that if T and I come to a decision to try and make things work - the first conversation about that be between the three of us...

I know I shouldn't let myself hope that everything will be okay - but I need the relief from the pain... and just knowing that we WILL talk about it in a couple of weeks is... I can only describe it as 'I can breathe again'...
 
FlameKat said:
We are going to have a talk !!!!

T responded and the boys have sorted out that we will talk in about two weeks!!!

(I am going away for a few days and if the talk goes badly WW doesn't want me stewing by myself in the middle of the outback with no communication to anyone and T is going back to work and won't be back for 2 weeks)

WW made 2 requests... the first being that the talk not happen until after my trip. The second being that if T and I come to a decision to try and make things work - the first conversation about that be between the three of us...

I know I shouldn't let myself hope that everything will be okay - but I need the relief from the pain... and just knowing that we WILL talk about it in a couple of weeks is... I can only describe it as 'I can breathe again'...
Click to expand...
and now I can't breath...
:(
 
it's okay... WW hadn't read that post... and responded to it before he spoke to me...

It's all hitting home a little hard right now... a lot of what if's popping up and wanting to put the brakes on and run the other way. We have talked and are on an even keel again - for now.

WW is still uncomfortable posting on here... but we do talk things through and he assures me he is reading a lot of the things on here.
At the moment he is unwilling to discuss any particulars of what he is reading... so I am not sure really how much or what he is taking from here - but we are good and strong and communicating and that is the most important thing right now.

*unwilling may be the wrong word - it could be he simply isn't ready/able to discuss what he has read in an objective manner... there's no rush though :D
 
So T and I spoke...

The result is not what i have wished for and T is exiting our lives. somewhat.

T (in a backhanded way) admitted he had fallen in love with me, but that what I wanted was, simply, not right. After some more discussion he said it wouldn't be right in WW's world but more importantly wasn't right in his... that he would likely go insane...

That was an answer I could live with... not the part about WW - he is trying to understand and accept this side of me. The part about T likely going insane - if that is how he feels about it (and he assured me he had given it a LOT of thought) then I wouldn't want him to try...

Even with that, neither of us was able to say goodbye once again, so we have settled with a maybe one day in the future we can be friends again, just not now.
WW is not pleased with the way the conversation ended (in fact he said it scared him immensely)... as I wear a ring that matches one I was going to give to T (T knows about this, at the time the rings were purchased they were to be friendship rings), he told me to keep it and maybe if our paths cross I can give it to him then... I hold such attachment to his ring that I need to give it to him,

so I said I would give it to him or mail it...

he said his only condition still applies (that I give it in person), and that if he takes a trip down to my island I could give it then,

and I said I would likely be there first and he had guaranteed himself a visit then.

which he replied would not be a good idea and that he had gotten sidetracked, and we went back to figuring out how to say goodbye without leaving a raw wound...

we settled with saying goodnight.

(this was to me - a good way for us to leave it... the whole rip it off like a bandaid approach really wasn't working for me - I had huge balls of pain from it - well my description is above in this thread somewhere - this is a much gentler approach which is final _ no more communication now_ but the possibility is there for communication to reopen at some point in the future) that said I am not skipping along for joy - I am still grieving... but there are no huge wads of pain, I am not overly choked up and I can breathe :D I can live with this.

WW says we are now set up for an affair to happen. I disagree - I have slightly more faith in my own strength, as well as in T's. Having an affair would also imply that I stopped talking to WW and being honest - which hurt me quite a lot. WW says the power of the passion evident between T and I means that as good intentions as we have... we would likely give in to how we feel.
That is a statement I find difficult to argue with as my feelings are very strong, and as I haven't seen T since those feelings developed I do not know how being close to him in person will enhance those feelings. I do still find it unlikely though.
That said, latent and repressed feelings do have a way of rearing up and biting people in the arse.

Comment on the thoughts shared above are more than welcome... I personally would like some insight from other perspectives...
 
So at some point after Yasi hit, T put a picture on facebook again (this is after specifically telling me that he has no friends on facebook, and that he would be giving us this space)... he then allowed me to see him change his picture (on msn) and add his sister to his MSN friends - (I was the only other contact on his profile...) and then deleted and blocked me.

Sometime in the last couple of days he has changed his facebook picture to the one he had on MSN... and I just saw him sign in and out of MSN - which means he has added me back to his contacts and unblocked me.

WW noticed his facebook picture change and has changed his picture to match, saying that he is going to play picture tag essentially. (Which I find a wee bit petty and somewhat...territorial? - either way it makes me uncomfortable)

I'm not sure what the fuck is going on... I am glad that T is back (wish he would just bloody talk), but upset that WW is upset and hurting again. I don't think T knows what he wants - I have been quite clear with both of them how I feel and what I want... I also was very clear that I would not be leaving WW. (WW feels it likely that T may flip flop around for some time before deciding at some point to try and make me choose).

Oh and just to be clear some of it may be my fault - I sent two emails... one a warning message about a new spider (which may or may not be a hoax)... and another an awesome fail from a news channel... I massmailed them... and forgot (didn't even occur to me) that T was still in one of the groups I massmailed them to, along with WW... so now WW is saying that just receiving those emails would have been a reminder for T and might be triggering his actions...


Aaaaaargh... so confused, so hurt again.. and yet hopeful too... I really hope that T figures out he needs to talk to WW... before he talks to me... I have my doubts though - he knows he will get a much friendlier reception from me... talking to WW will be hard. especially because he said he would be giving us our space... and he would be going back on his word by talking to either of us.

I also think T will talk to me first - because I made it clear that I want him to just talk when he needs to... no picture changing... just talk. made him hear me on that one... I think that the current change of pictures is meant to be a warning that he is planning to talk... but hey - what do I know?? I'm the one that really got this mess started...
 
I really don't understand how much, nor why, people let Facebook be such a huge factor in handling relationships. People change their pictures all the time. Why would that mean anything at all?

And the MSN thing. Could have been a temporary glitch. Why is someone logging in there any indication of... anything? Might as well send up smoke signals.

I don't know. I'm very selective about whom I connect with on FB, the pics I put up, the updates I post. I make it so none of my friends can even see who else I'm friends with, and no one can post to my Wall. I don't think I would friend anyone there with whom I'm involved romantically. I read about people saying personal things on FB and getting into fights over it. WTF? It just shouldn't be so important. Relating and communicating directly to the people you're with is more important.

I hate the fact that I've even begun to say important things to people in email. To me, that's a cop-out. In person or on the phone is always better. Those two need to talk? Why doesn't someone make a call? It's perplexing to me.
 
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