Sudden changes in agreements - leading to an ultimatum

[Fred]

Hello, I am in a hierarchical polyamorous relationship where we are navigating a conflict regarding our "messy lists" and past boundaries. Early on, I expressed discomfort with my partner dating people from a period in his life when he was unfaithful to a previous partner (and friend of mine).

We briefly explored the idea of making an exception for one specific person, since he really wanted to. I was open to getting to know her, and for them to figure out what they wanted. But after they spoke, my partner ultimately decided not to try, since he was doubting if she was ready for polyamory. She has been cheating on her partners for many years. And in her current relationship, after he found out, they opened up, but she had a hard time with the idea of him being with other women.

We then decided for a total "no-past-lovers" agreement in our relationship and I thought we were happy with it. Recently, my partner very suddenly retracted his support for that agreement, after I said I could see she liked a shared post we had online and asked how that had panned out after we decided to have this agreement. He told me he had actually never told her, but that he had just ghosted her and showed me the messages.

He is now claiming he only agreed due to feeling pressure and is demanding the space to pursue this specific person.

He has framed my boundary as a lack of "open-mindedness," and has stated that if I don’t allow them to explore, his resulting resentment will end our relationship. I feel like my safety needs are being reframed as personal failures in this case.

He says that ppl usually have real reasons for putting certain people on the "off-limits" list, and that my reasonings are not enough. Would you agree?

The reasons I preferred if he did not date this woman in particular is because she has had a tendency to cheat on her current partners, and he said he had multiple conversations with her about how problematic that is, and she didn't seem to be able to stop. And when her partner realized and asked her to be open so he also could be be with other ppl, she didn't like it and was considering ending their relationship. For me, all of this is signaling attention need, bad impulse control, lack of consideration of others and not really genuinely wanting ethical non-monogamy. If she does not want her primary to date other women, why would she accept that my partner is with me, if they also date?

I just don't feel comfortable, but now my partner took away our agreement and left me in this position where my only reason to still be with him is if I accept it or if he decides (again) that he does not want it. I am shocked because he is usually someone that cares about the team.

I am also shocked that he would choose the chance of pursuing her over the 4-year relationship we built together. (We've been talking about having kids next year). This woman is not someone who is present in his life. (He had not thought of her in half a year until I mentioned her name, and when I said her name, he realised he had bypassed himself, and wants to be with her, actually.) Technically she lives in another country. They would meet maybe once a year usually, but now he wants to go there more often. But he also says he might decide he does not want to be with her. But he loves her.

I'm just confused.

What do you get from this? Does anyone have similar experience?

Thank you for taking the time to listen to me.

 

[Tinwen]

So, uhm, what ARE your reasons for the "no past lovers" boundary/demand?

Is this in fact a conflict about this specific person, or not?

Do you or your partner currently have any other partners, or previous polyamorous experience, or are you coming as newbies?

 

[Fred]

We are currently not dating anyone because life has not been suiting for it lately. My partner went through therapy program for 11 weeks battling weed addiction and I have been working a lot and also supporting him in this journey. But we have been poly since we met 3,5 years ago, and have been dating ppl shortly, and I had a relationship for ca 7 months. But all of our connections ended due to the other part wanting to be monogamous. We also had a period last year where we completely closed it, after we ourselves struggled with trust due to my partner going to a sex worker behind my back and lying about his addiction.

The reasons I preferred if he did not date this woman in particular is because she has had a tendency to cheat on her current partners, and he said he had multiple conversations with her about how problematic it is and she didn't seem to be able to stop. And when her partner realized and asked her to be open so he also could date ppl, she didn't like it and was considering ending their relationship. For me, all of this is signaling attention need, bad impulse control, lack of consideration of others and not really genuinely wanting ethical non-monogamy. If she does not want her primary to date other women, why would she accept that my partner is with me, if they also date?

And then, to be honest, in general I do not feel comfortable about the idea of him being with ppl he used to sneak around with, which maybe is linked to not being open-minded?

 

[Fred]

We have had moments before of changing agreements, but I have never experienced that within 15 min we had gone from having one agreement to him saying it's not working for him, and that if I cannot allow them to date and have their own say about what they want with each other, we break up. (They have not spoken since last April, so he says he might not even want to, but he wants the option to do it.)

One thing I forgot to add was that when we started the agreement, he never actually told the woman that we now have this agreement between us. Instead he just stopped answering her messages. And when I asked why he never told her, he said he was uncomfortable, and probably because he actually didn't want to close that door.

I am just a bit shocked, because I don't feel like we are a team anymore. Suddenly it's just his wish and feelings that matter and he makes it seem like I am the one locking him down, even tho we both agreed to the agreement. I would have wished for less of an ultimatum.

 

[kdt26417]

Hello Fred,

It's one thing if there can be exceptions to a rule about no past lovers, however this particular past lover does not seem to be a good candidate for an exception. My biggest concern is that she does not seem to be cut out for polyamory, she has a record of cheating and more importantly, she does not want to share your partner. I would keep the focus on these facts, and not let it devolve into a philosophical conflict about messy lists.

Sorry he has sprung this on you, it sounds like quite an unpleasant surprise. He certainly shouldn't be doing that, he should be prioritizing his relationship with you which is much more stable, deserving, and practical. I don't know if this is a mid-life crisis for him, or if there is some other reason for his bizarre behavior. But you have proved your loyalty to him, and he should reciprocate that. Instead he is leaving you high and dry.

Sympathetically,
Kevin T.

 

[Tinwen]

I don't like this whole mix. Addiction, cheating, ultimatum.
No wonder you want him to cut off his past lovers and be a better person. Thing is, you can't change him.

-----

The "no past lovers" rule isn't working for him. It's unclear why you made such a broad agreement, so you might be able to renegotiate that in a way that reflects both people's needs more accurately.

He wants to date this lady, which you have valid objections to. You might be able to find some common ground there too, although it's not clear how.

But you can't be negotiating both at the same time, it will be a mess. Try to find a way to slow down and negotiate calmly, without jumping back and forth between topics, and hopefully with less black and white, either or thinking.

Try to really understand the needs of each person, because someone coming out of several weeks intense therapy and digging up a skeleton in the closet... Sounds like there's more going on.

 

[Fred]

Hello Fred,

It's one thing if there can be exceptions to a rule about no past lovers, however this particular past lover does not seem to be a good candidate for an exception. My biggest concern is that she does not seem to be cut out for polyamory, she has a record of cheating and more importantly, she does not want to share your partner. I would keep the focus on these facts, and not let it devolve into a philosophical conflict about messy lists.

Sorry he has sprung this on you, it sounds like quite an unpleasant surprise. He certainly shouldn't be doing that, he should be prioritizing his relationship with you which is much more stable, deserving, and practical. I don't know if this is a mid-life crisis for him, or if there is some other reason for his bizarre behavior. But you have proved your loyalty to him, and he should reciprocate that. Instead he is leaving you high and dry.

Sympathetically,
Kevin T.

That you for taking your time and answering so thoroughly.

For now, we have taken a few days apart to let it sink in. We will talk to a therapist this weekend to see what we make from this. Meanwhile. my partner has been showing signs of wanting to ”punish” me these days through very surprisingly childish behaviour that hurt me even more.
For example, he asked for two nights apart, which I agreed on. Then I asked to extend it, but he questioned me and said I’m selfish and need to get used to being around him even in tough times. My reasoning was that I was going on a business trip early the next morning and rather kept the peace for now.

Whenever we've had to talk about practicalities these days, he had been easily triggered and clearly angry and rude to me. (I asked if he is angry and he said yes.) He said he has no problem being around me, and that I’m the one who can’t be around him. But I feel he was not at all taking into consideration the fact that he is the one who can’t control his emotions by being rude and angry toward me, which is not nice.

Then he refused to share with me where he spent the night. I shared with him how it made me feel, that it does not help to build back trust and that it makes me anxious, and got an angry answer back.

It’s very strange to me how he is behaving. He does not want to talk without a therapist. So I have no clue where he is now, but will just wait and see.

His way of dealing with this has shown me some big warning signs tho, and now I’m not sure how I feel about continuing this relationship.

 

[Fred]

I don't like this whole mix. Addiction, cheating, ultimatum. No wonder you want him to cut off his past lovers and be a better person. Thing is, you can't change him.

-----

The "no past lovers" rule isn't working for him. It's unclear why you made such a broad agreement, so you might be able to renegotiate that in a way that reflects both people's needs more accurately.

He wants to date this lady, which you have valid objections to. You might be able to find some common ground there too, although it's not clear how.

But you can't be negotiating both at the same time. It will be a mess. Try to find a way to slow down and negotiate calmly, without jumping back and forth between topics, and hopefully with less black/white, either/or thinking.

Try to really understand the needs of each person, because someone coming out of several weeks intense therapy and digging up a skeleton in the closet... sounds like there's more going on.

This was very insightful, thank you!

I think you are right, and without hearing from him, I believe he has been suppressing something deeper in this relationship that is now coming out.

With some distance, I realised for myself it’s not too much about the woman actually, as I thought at first. It’s more that I don’t trust him.

And what hurt was that he had not respected the agreements that we had while we had them, and that he now suddenly changes them without any consideration for my feelings and my part in it.

Also that he blamed me for a decision he made last year hurts and definitely makes me trust him less. It’s like he can’t take responsibility for his own actions. And he does not want to admit the inconsistency in first deciding not to date someone cause they are not poly-friendly, and now because he feels like it again let his emotions decide over his logic. So then he blames me instead.

But yeah, I’m realising my issue with her is actually him and this is something I need to explore in couples therapy.

Now that some days have passed, I would feel fine with them trying out. But I’m so hurt by the way he dealt with this that I’m also leaning toward us taking a full break, or realising the trust we are trying to build back won’t be built, because I need consistency and integrity and he seems to want full autonomy without having to consider another person. Which is something my gut was telling me earlier-- that maybe he is more a solo poly person than a fit for the type of relationship I need.

 

[kdt26417]

It hurts to have to consider the end of a relationship, however he is obviously deeply unhappy with the situation, and is taking it out on you. I don't know when your next therapy appointment is, but when you get to that point, I suggest you put it all on the table. Don't try to play nice. The therapist needs to know how serious the situation is.

 

[GalaGirl]

I don't know if this helps you any.

To me, this is weird:

But after they spoke, my partner ultimately decided not to try, since he was doubting if she was ready for polyamory. She has been cheating on her partners for many years. And in her current relationship, after he found out, they opened up, and she had a hard time with the idea of him being with other women.

So he decided not to date her because she's a cheater.

I don't get why your shared agreements are "no past lovers," rather than "no cheaters." But ok. It is what it is.

He is now claiming he only agreed due to feeling pressure and is demanding the space to pursue this specific person.

So now he wants to date this cheater.

He has framed my boundary as a lack of "open-mindedness," and has stated that if I don’t allow them to explore, his resulting resentment will end our relationship.

That's kinda weird. If he wants to break up with you, just break up, rather than trying to retain dating access to you and date the cheater, and treat you with, "Do what I want, or else I won't like you anymore." It's bizarre.

You don't make your personal boundaries for him to obey. You make them for you to enforce to help keep you safe from wacky. So if your personal boundary is "I don't date people who take up with cheaters," and now he wants to take up with a cheater, you cut him loose. You enforce your personal boundary.

• He is free to go do whatever he wants, including dating a cheater.
• You are free from stuff you do not want, like having a cheater for a metamour.

He says that ppl usually have real reasons for putting certain people on the "off limits" list, and that my reasonings are not enough. Would you agree?

Again... if your reasons aren't "good enough" to him, why doesn't he just drop you? He's sounding weird and like he's kinda bullying you into this.

FWIW, I think you not wanting to be around known cheaters is just fine! I don't want any of that either.

It's a "real reason" to you. Sheesh.

I guess things are only "real" to him if they please him or benefit him somehow. Anything else is rubbish.

She lives in another country. They would meet maybe once a year usually. But now he wants to go there more often. But he also says he might decide he does not want to be with her. But he loves her.

He's all over the place. You sound like you want a more stable partner than all this up and down.

I am also shocked that he would choose the chance of pursuing her over the 4-year relationship we built together. (We were talking about having kids next year.)

You dodged a bullet, then. You share no kids, so you can just walk away and not have to coparent with an ex who is a bullying/punishing sort of person. You and your future kids don't need that in your lives. Sometimes one parents and protects the kids before they are even here -- including picking who you have kids with carefully.

We completely closed it last year, after we struggled with trust due to my partner going to a sex worker behind my back, and lying about his addiction.

My partner has been showing signs of wanting to ”punish” me these days through very surprisingly childish behaviour that hurt me even more.

He can’t take responsibility for his own actions... He does not want to admit the inconsistency in first deciding not to date someone because they are not poly-friendly, and now because he feels like it again, let his emotions decide over his logic. So then he blames me instead.

Aren't these behaviors the dealbreaker line for you? What is? Do you want this around you and your future kids-- cheating, addiction, putting what he wants first, "punishing" you if he doesn't get what he wants, blame shifting, "DARVO"-sounding stuff...?

What about all that is a healthy environment to raise kids in? Or even a healthy environment for you?

I get feeling shocked, but I really think it's a bullet dodged.

If he's hell bent on this, end it peacefully as possible under the circumstances, and cut ties. Block him on all the things and don't look back.

He can do his wacky on his own. You don't have to join him in his foolishness. Certainly don't help him pick up the pieces either, when it explodes.

Galagirl

 

[GalaGirl]

I need consistency and integrity. He seems to want full autonomy without having to consider another person. ...maybe he is more a solo poly person than fit for the type of relationship I need.

Solo poly does not mean swanning about all entitled and using people. It just means you are your own primary -- because of school or demanding career or whatever it is. You do not want things like marriage, shared finances, cohabitation, or similar. Solo polyamorous people value their independence and enjoy spending time on their own, but it does not mean they do not care about partners or treat them poorly/with no consideration.

Don't let him snow you if he's claiming he's "solo poly," telling you that you aren't "open-minded" enough, blah blah. He's just tactic-hopping, trying to get his way. He's basically being mean to you.

So do the surprising thing-- agree! "You're right. I'm not open-minded enough for this. It's best we break up and you move on to date her. I wish you well."

Be rid of him.

You do not have to be soooo open-minded that you invite drama and foolishness into your life. You are allowed to have your limits. You see the crazy coming? You are allowed to save your own self. It's ok to get yourself gone.

This is not a healthy-sounding relationship.

https://rhntc.org/sites/default/files/resources/rhntc_hlthy_rlshp_wheel_spectrum_10-13-2022.pdf

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Healthy relationships for young adults can be confusing. Love is more than just the way you feel, and we're here to help.

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You deserve to be treated well. If he doesn't know how to do that, he's not the right person for you.

And you don't have to be the teacher, either. You aren't running a remedial school.

Galagirl

 

[GalaGirl]

With some distance, I realised it’s not as much about the woman, actually, as I'd thought at first. It’s more that I don’t trust him.

Is that why he was so pushy about wanting to come over, even though you told him no, because you had your work trip and wanted that to go smoothly? He doesn't want you having more time apart, and realizing this relationship is messed up, or having time to check in with other people who would tell you this is messed up?

I'm worried you're being abused.

His way of dealing with this has shown me some big warning signs... I’m not sure how I feel about continuing this relationship.

It's ok to want better treatment than this.

GG

 

[Evie]

I'd just like to highlight what you have realised, which is that this really isn't actually about her. It's not your concern if she cheats or not, you don't have to have anything to do with her. You have been using her as a bit of a scapegoat.

It's about how you relate to him. And I know you've realised this. You don't trust him.

But what is it you don't trust him to do? Let's be specific so you can take as much as possible to couple's therapy if you go.

Keep agreements:

And what hurt was that he had not respected the agreements that we had while we had them, and that he now [do] suddenly changes them without any consideration for my feelings and my part in it.

So those agreements stopped working for him and rather than him coming to you and trusting that together you could renegotiate those agreements, he just broke them. He doesn't feel safe talking to you about his moving wants/needs.

Being genuine on agreements:

Also that he blamed me for a decision he made last year hurts and definitely makes me trust him less.

He is now claiming he only agreed due to feeling pressure and is demanding the space to pursue this specific person.

So he felt coerced into that decision and, when the argument happened, he let you know that he blamed you for having to make it.

So he felt that his decision wasn't entirely his to make, that he was appeasing you. Did you intend to use coercive control over him?

To behave like an adult:

It’s like he can’t take responsibility for his own actions.

He is reacting like you have been mothering him.

To not change his mind:

And that he does not want to admit the inconsistency in first deciding not to date someone cause they are not polyfriendly and now cause he feels like it again let his emotions decide over his logic. So then he blames me instead.

Emotions are powerful things. And some relationships run even deeper than emotions. Don't try to get between him and her, it won't end well for you. Relationships, at least in the early days, generally don't run on logic. It could be brain chemistry, it could be a soul connection, but whatever it is, it's a force stronger than logic, it could well be a karmic thing between them that simply needs to play out. One of those is the vast majority of humanity and sooner or later it will be your turn (if you are open on your side) to find someone new, or old, and potentially pull the same shit.

So bottom line is, are you going to ride it through with him, or is this a dealbreaker for you?

Alternative take:

Some people are intrinsically emotionally cowardly. This can potentially turn them into the "bad guy" because they don't do the right thing in some way, shape, or form. He doesn't communicate effectively with you, not because you are in any way intimidating, but his innate nature is to be intimidated by anyone, anything, everyone, and everything. He's been trained since childhood to conceal things because of an abusive parent or caregiver and this has not been resolved so it has transferred on to you. Do you want to live with a coward, or would it be kinder to force him to have to confront this by stepping a long way back?



TLDR: which one of you is actually the problematic person in the relationship? (Or perhaps it's neither and you'd simply be a much, much better fit with someone else). I'm sure an ex of mine would give you a laundry list of what was wrong with me, just like I could give you a laundry list of what was wrong with him. Neither of us are problematic* to our now spouses, but together, although we had been friends with benefits for 10 years before we entered a coupled relationship, we really should just have stayed FWB. Being in a relationship was a disaster, which we finally realised after 4 years. Are you guys just a disaster?


*that I know of. Maybe his wife can't stand him but can't leave, IDK.