The ... unexpected. Opening up the marriage, and the old friend suddenly isn't just a friend.

[Rickmanger]

Interesting situation I found myself in. Came over to this site as my experience historically is not so much “poly” as… open/swinging/playing, and I’m trying to make sure I’m reading this right, since this is the first relationship like this I’ve ever found myself in. This may be a bit … long. Also, I’ve written it, hesitated posting, and had to update it 3 4 5 6 times now, so it may ramble a touch. Assume this was written from the first week of September, and then updated several times after that.




Backstory on me / wife:

My wife and I are extremely happily married, awesome sex life, awesome life in general. We are in a non-monogamous stag/vixen relationship, where both of us enjoy seeing the other flirt / have fun, especially when on vacation or away from the home. What we have discovered through doing this is that while she enjoys seeing me flirt and have fun away from the home, her anxiety issues make it so she is not comfortable knowing about me having fun near home right now, thus a “don’t ask, don’t tell, don’t bring it home” approach – anything I do cannot affect our home life. She gets anxious that something might go wrong, makes her feel guilty that she gets to play more openly, vicious loop. Vice versa, I have no issue with her having fun closer to home, as long as I can be very aware of what is happening to keep me comfortable (reading texts/emails, details of phone calls, details of encounters) – the details even are a turn on to me, so this is a plus. We learned the hard way, however, that I have to ask “permission” to read (she cannot say no) or wait for her to tell me, because that makes it “above board” – vs my peeking or looking on my own, which makes her feel guilty that she’s doing something wrong, which triggers the same anxiety issues as her knowing about my having fun. She’s gotten a lot of therapy about these (all related to a screwed up childhood in the church); they are what they are.

Anyway; she currently has a “friend” she’s getting more serious with and is planning on meeting up with after a few months of texting/flirting/sexy pics, and I have somewhat open consent to have fun as long as it doesn’t come home. YET. She has no issues with poly in theory, and we’ve talked about it, but it’s a “this needs to go slow” thing.





The Group of Friends:

My best friend Joe and I go back to our freshman year of college twenty+ years ago. I ended up introducing him to his now wife, Kayla, our last year there. Kayla and I dated briefly that year – just two relatively casual dates, as I wasn’t really ready mentally to get back into the dating pool (had come out of a really bad long term relationship only 3 months prior) and was both rebounding and “figuring out” who I was. We went our separate ways, but she stayed as part of the group of friends we had, and she and I especially remained relatively close. We both went through various other good and bad relationships, and she even hinted a couple of times that she’d be open to dating again, but we made great friends at the time and the timing never matched up. Kayla and Joe finally started dating (she’d always been chasing him, at least a bit), and have been married for a while now, with the usual minor ups and downs – great marriage, great life, etc. Joe has been with me through thick and thin, and my friendship with Kayla has stuck around as well, although with the appropriate “distance” for “we’re both happily married.”

I introduced Joe and Kayla to another pair of friends, Bryan and Samantha, a few years back. They all hit it off, and the four of them started hanging out more often than I did with either pair (I didn’t entirely get along with Samantha; no issues, just very different personalities and interests) – nothing unusual, as they all lived close together, and I was a goodly bit farther away (within an hours drive, vs 5 minutes). Last year, things seemed to be getting … stranger with the four of them. There was definitely something unusual going on, and last fall (around this time), it finally came out – they’d decided to try their own non-monogamous relationship and partner swap. Only Bryan didn’t handle it well – at all. To the point that he pushed Kayla quite inappropriately (this bordered on sexual assault), and then tried to cut everything off when the group told him he was being, well, a dick. Him and Samantha ended up having a major fight over it, and she tried to leave – only to decide to return and give it one last shot (great deal of backstory cut out here, it’s relatively unimportant). We all kept communicating on the back end, just so we could make sure she was all right, and it quickly became clear that her marriage was not only highly toxic, but bordered on outright abusive – something none of us knew about Bryan (and yes, she had quite a bit of proof, so this was not her word against his).

Samantha finally left Bryan this year, a ways before the COVID lockdown started. She moved in with Joe and Kayla, and they’ve formed a triad, and been quite happy as a result (it’s an open-v; Kayla and Samantha are very close friends, but not actually involved with each other – Kayla is Bi, but Samantha is very very hetero).

(Continues)

 

[Rickmanger]

Having to break this up. I wrote it into a word doc so I could organize my thoughts, and 10,000 character limit... yeah.

The situation:

Based on how much all of us had been talking (I was the neutral third-party for both Bryan/Samantha and Joe/Kayla to talk to, as well as all the individuals as they worked through this), we started rekindling various friendships going into this year, and set a resolution to actually get together more, since we’d kinda let that die over the past few years – we used to hang out with Joe and Kayla pretty regularly, but it had just slacked off from the distance. I started hanging out regularly with both of them together, and both individually again (just as friends), and even hung out with Samantha a few times to give her someone “else” to talk to about some of the mess she was dealing with. Kayla and I even went on a couple of “friend dates” whenever Joe/Samantha wanted some time on their own, as that let her and I just hang out and chat while they were doing their thing. This all shut down somewhat with covid, but we did form a social pod and still hung out on a regular basis.

Now, at some point during this Kayla started flirting pretty significantly with me and one of our other mutual friends (who is also in a non-monogamous relationship – in fact, I’d say his is the perfect definition of how to have a functional, healthy 100% open relationship on both sides). I sat down with Joe one day over lunch and asked about it, just to make sure everything was ok, and he stated that Kayla enjoyed flirting, missed it (marriage, after all, and her and Bryan had fallen apart pretty rapidly so she didn’t really get to explore), and that we were certainly free to flirt back, or even more if she was interested. She herself said a few times that flirting made her more interested in things at home, so it was a win/win situation as far as he was concerned. He gave me explicit consent to take her out, and if something happened, that was ok – with the consent line drawn at “don’t have sex, if it gets there we’ll need to talk about it first.” He wasn’t sure she was actually interested in anything more than flirting. Both of them are aware of how my relationship works with my wife.

She and I met up a few more times just to grab beers, chat, whatever – and every time, she kept giving me longer and longer hugs before we went our separate ways (minute+ of very tight holding, slow rubbing of the back, letting go slowly, etc), but things stayed 100% platonic other than that – we weren’t even flirting that much when we hung out, it was far more in group situations. Finally, we met up for another “friend date” recently, and, well, it turned into a real date. After dinner and a couple of drinks, she made a joke, I joked about kissing her, and based on her response, I said something close to “so you wouldn’t mind if I did kiss you?” She shook her head, and we ended up making out for a good couple of minutes. We stopped, she started to realize the “I’m married!” - I explained that she had consent (Joe had said this a couple of months prior, during one of the serious discussions), and that I’d also gotten consent from him as well, and it was like the handcuffs came off. We were immediately back to making out like mad, and after a bit, she grabbed my hand, dragged it up to her breast, and said “I want you to grope me, I want you to take me…” We were in a public area, so we kept it to making out and some over-the clothes petting, but pretty quickly wrapped up to go… elsewhere.

On the way back to elsewhere, she was holding my hand and asked me why it was I liked her, since it was now quite clear I did. We talked a bit about our history, and she told me that she’d always found me attractive, but I’d never seemed interested before, and the timing had never been right when she was single – she also added that there’d always been a spark between us too, and she’d always had feelings for me.

We got back to the car, and ... things got pretty R-rated. She kept saying that she’d always found me attractive and (I think) wanted this, and asked me how long I’d been wanting to have her in this way – and that I was incredibly good at this, she was insanely turned on, and she desperately wanted me inside of her – although she did warn me she was on her time of month. It got quite X-rated by the end and at one point she was riding me (still with shorts on under the dress – I did promise to stop at a certain point) and saying that she couldn’t wait to ride me like that for real.

I eventually stopped us – because if I didn’t, I was going to end up inside of her after all, promises or no promises, and took her home. We talked a lot on the way home about how crazy this was that it had finally happened, and I asked her when we got close if she had any regrets. She said “no, not at all,” and asked me the same (same answer). Gave her a good night kiss at the door, and sent her in.

Couple of days pass with some “thank you, that was awesome, I didn’t want to stop” texts, and then late one evening about 3-4 days after she pinged me again.

Turns out, she hadn’t told Joe yet. She was really afraid of how he will react, and how to approach him. I was a little bit confused about this at first, and then she admitted that while her experiences with Bryan had been fun, they’d felt more like a one night stand, or a brief fling, and this “felt right… felt totally natural… and that for the first time in a long time, she was actually feeling things she hadn’t in a long time.” She said she had absolutely no regrets about it, no guilt, and it felt completely natural and right – which I suspect is freaking her out a little bit. (Ed: more on this later, she was, but for the obvious reasons of “I got the feels, and I really hope he does too”) She says she now understands possibly what Joe and Samantha felt, which helps her understand how that side of the relationship worked out – and that she keeps thinking back to when we first dated and now, and how it feels “right” now. The texting got significantly hotter until we pretty much relived the night over chat. We did manage to talk about the consent side some – that he’d given his to both of us, and I had mine – and I told her I’d be willing to talk to Joe (or we could talk to him together) if she didn’t quite feel like she could on her own. She was very sober during this conversation; this was not booze talking or anything else. It got … very x-rated again.

Since then, we exchanged a couple of good morning/night texts, and then got into a long, general discussion of normal stuff- just like friends chatting away constantly on and off through the day while we worked. Last night, out of no where (while joking around), she brought up kissing me again. It got once again right back to the x-rated material (she wants me to fantasize about her, dream of all the ways to take her, and we set a date for our next meet up and talked about how we wanted that to go). She kept saying how much she wanted to repeat that night, and how much she wanted to see me again. She ended the night by saying she was happy I had feelings for her, as she thought they had gone away long ago, and told me to dream of her.

But… there were a couple of comments in there though that were strange – she keeps worrying about overstepping, or going too far, and wanting to know if I still wanted to do everything we talked about. I’m not 100% positive, but it almost seems like she’s worried about me having the same feelings for her that she does for me. Lord knows I’m worried about her having the same feelings for me that I do for her! (Ed: This becomes more clear later, I was accurate when I wrote this, and there was more too).

 

[Rickmanger]

I did finally talk to Joe, at least over text (had to cancel a planned lunch due to problems on both sides), and he confirmed that he was all right with this change of situation, but somewhat stunned – he didn’t think there was anything going on there (I’m honestly not sure if Kayla or I realized there was either – and I still think she’s worried about me having the same feelings for her that she does for me, and lord knows I’m still wrestling with that in my head too!). We set up lines of communication and some initial boundaries – making sure no one was damaging any relationships/etc, and absolutely making sure we knew how to keep everyone informed of what was going on and how we were going to handle it. He said she felt guilty about it – and I interpreted his words (and hers) as it was truly a “oh, there are real feelings here, not just friends” and she was working her way through what that actually meant.

Ending that week, we all went to a standing group event that we have scheduled, which Kayla and I had already decided to be platonic at. It ended up being a little less than platonic at times, as we were quietly touching under the table and playing around, and I gave her a quick neck kiss before we all left (while she whispered into my ear that she couldn’t wait to see me). Got a bunch of fun texts that evening after as a result thanking me, and her saying she could barely stand it (being around me without doing something) and that the night wasn’t enough – it was just a tease. Made me quite happy.

Initial questions from ~15 days ago.
That being said, a few things are rumbling around my mind (and yes, I’m likely ALSO overanalyzing things – feel free to tell me to settle down and enjoy the ride if that’s what I’m doing).

To put it simply:

1.. She brought up a LOT of things about our past – asking me how long I’d been waiting for this, wanting this, dreaming about her, even masturbating about her. This… is new to me. But this whole thing is new to me. What’s your first gut reaction to that? At one point she said “and then you were married…” when talking about the fact that she’d always had feelings for me. Does it seem like she’s feeling something significant (an old flame rekindled), or maybe she was just really really into it the entire time, or just been hoping to get me in bed at some point and enjoying the fantasy turned reality? I’m not looking to change anyone’s situation here, but I’ll be damned if I don’t have some feelings too. And it all happened so fast, even the times afterwards via text…

2. She seems to bounce between exhilarated and worried – not in the sense of “we’ve done something wrong” or “omg what did you do”, but in the “is he feeling what I’m feeling”, “did I go too far,” or “oh crap, that cat is out of the bag, and I don’t want to put it back INTO the bag.” or “is this what I want?” or, well, anything – but I might be over-reading into things.

3. I get NRE and all the rest – is this what it feels like from the other side? It’s been so long since I’ve had someone… crush?… on me that I’m, well, startled? And it’s been over a decade for me to have a crush either.

4. Any other thoughts or concerns or… “well, that’s weird” you see, other than this whole situation being pretty bloody unique itself?

I’ve never dated a friend’s significant other, just trying to make sense out of things in my head I guess. And I’ve also never dated someone that I’ve known for over 15 years before either, especially not this close!


(Ed: This was where I originally stopped and intended to post it. As per the old saying, “The best laid schemes o' mice an' men / Gang aft a-gley,” and stuff changed faster than I could get up the gumption to post this. So, continuing...)

Met Joe for lunch. Before anything else, I apologized that this had come at him cold. He understood (somewhat) – and vented quite a bit about how Kayla should have been a bit more honest with him that she was developing feelings and this might happen. He believes (possibly rightly) that she knew this was building – and with massive amounts of 20/20 hindsight, I can’t… disagree. There were hints here and there, little comments that our conscious minds were certainly (at least on my side) discarding as polite fictions, little white lies – while at least my subconscious was processing them. Can’t speak for Kayla’s mind, obviously. He pointed out that the way to Kayla’s heart was hanging out with her and being present – she becomes attached to someone by being around them regularly, and that’s a significant part of what we were doing. I politely told him that he could have warned me, which got a good laugh, and he agreed – he could have warned me that what we were doing was leading to where we ended up, even if we weren’t totally aware.

He needed to vent a little about things around their house – Kayla has stepped way back with him since Samantha moved in, almost like she’s allowing herself to be replaced, and he’s worried about losing her, or that she is intentionally “ceding” all of her physical intimacy and affection role in the relationship to Samantha, and that she had been ducking out on her one day off each week for pretty much the entire day (Thursday) – and he thought she had been spending those days with me. I explained that outside of the friend “dates,” we’d met for about half those days – normally for a couple of hours at most, call it two beers – and then I’d gone on to work / home / something else. He understood. His real concern is that he never ever wanted to “replace” Kayla, and he feels like she is acting like she is being replaced. He’s got other concerns that are not at all related to me/her, but things that have been in the relationship for a long time, but those aren’t immediately relevant. Once we got through the venting, the conversation came around to the serious meat of the business.

His major concerns are that he wants to see Kayla; she’s his wife, he loves her, he misses her, and with her work schedule having always been odd, there’s never been a lot of time for them to spend together – even before Samantha moved in and Kayla started hanging out with me. He pretty much gets to see her at night from 11ish on (for brief bits), and she’s been distant during that time for several months – and then on Saturdays and Thursdays (which had become our night, or at least the night she was out). We agreed that we’re probably going to have to set up a real scheduling system, and I especially agreed to make sure to keep Saturday hands-off (it’s the one day they all three have the entire day free) and text-free, unless we intentionally plan something (he also appreciated that I’d already been doing that – it’s also the day for me and my wife to share). We talked about doing some joint things on Sunday mornings – all 4 of us even – and switching many of my Thursday things with her to lunches (I can carve out time that way, and she gets home to be with them) – various other time management techniques. We agreed that he is ok with us continuing to see each other, with the current boundaries (and he straight out said that the sex one would change, once they’d all had a chance to talk about it and make sure that this was not going to immediately have negative impacts on the existing relationships), although he does want her to actually spend more time around the house too, and especially with him and Samantha. All good things. We’re also all going to sit down and talk about things at some point soon – probably after our next date – including the current boundary of having sex. He was enormously relieved to know that there was no possible way I could cause an unwanted pregnancy (hormone treatments; I physically cannot).

At one point, mostly joking, he commented “God Dammit, when do I get to see her?!?” - her schedule is really… whack.

(Critical Ed note: This has since massively improved; they’ve talked, she’s much better about it, and feels more “whole” with how things are working out – especially now that she knows he doesn’t want to replace her, and he’s ok with all this).

 

[Rickmanger]

Final part:

Either way, good conversation. I talked to him about what parts of that I wanted to relay to her (that he was ok with us seeing each other, wanted time too, we needed to work on scheduling), and he approved – so I sent those on as texts. Before meeting him, she admitted that her stomach was in complete knots over the fact that we were sitting down to talk finally, and she desperately needed a drink. After relaying the messages, I effectively got back a “wow, that’s a lot to take in… all good, but a lot to take in…” She liked the idea of setting up better scheduling, and us all doing things together – and she made the comment “I also want to make sure we’re not going too overboard ourselves. Thursday was fantastic, and I want to make sure it wasn’t a just in the moment thing… It’s been a lot of fun chatting with you though.”

I came back with “Thursday was amazing; I don’t know if it was a flash in the pan, but… I don’t think it was. This next date will help figure it out, I suspect- how are YOU feeling, being 100% honest?”

Her reply was “still stunned. Kind of like I had feelings and wasn’t quite sure, then you kissed me and a spark sort of happened and I went with it. So friday I was flirting and playing with you to make sure I wasn’t crazy… I get butterflies every time I think of it, which I’m pretty sure is a good thing…” - and then admitted that she had felt some guilt since she didn’t actually have explicit permission from Joe before this happened (just implicit from his prior conversations).

Bit of back and forth, and finally I said: “So, he knows – and he’s ok with it, as long as we all get on the same page. So cards on the table moment: I get butterflies thinking about you, and thinking about last thursday. Friday helped cement that in my mind. I would very much like to take you out on Thursday and see if that spark is still there. And if it is, I’d like to see where this takes us, at least for a whole. It’s scary, but I’d like to know.. “If it doesn’t work, no harm, no foul – but I’d like to see if it does.”

After brief pause, I got back: “I agree with seeing where it takes us. I get excited/butterflies talking to you and when I think of that night. I’m definitely scared, but aren’t most things?”

me: “Growing requires being a little uncomfortable – staying in little bubbles is safe and calm, but you miss so much doing that. I’m scared with you, but lets be a bit scared together; we’ll take it slow, there’s no rush at all.”

Her: “True. Being safe really gets people no where. Ugh! I have butterflies now and we aren’t talking anything touchy feely!” From there we joked around for almost 12 hours straight – more than a little bit of light sexting, a lot of “I suspect that spark is still there…” type of comments, and ending on a very very r-rated level. She finally finished texting me when her night was over, and I told her: “Good night, now go home, snuggle up with a certain someone so he knows he’s not losing you, and I’ll talk with you tomorrow – and if that’s over stepping, I apologize” – she told me I wasn’t, and said good night.

The next day… things got hotter and hotter. Our texts back and forth talk less and less about mundane things, and more and more about what we want to do to each other. We met briefly for a quick drink between things … and we couldn’t keep our hands off each other. There were people around we knew, so it was all very… discrete… But she was enjoying every moment. And didn’t want me to stop.

In the bits of serious conversation – she’s talked to Joe now, and they’re on the same page and everything is ok.

Date number 2 went… well. Amazingly in fact. Drove out to lunch, ended up making out in the car like a pair of teenagers for an hour or so, then went to lunch. Back to the car, another hour (with even less clothing), and then a final drink. We got into a couple of her kinks, and it was amazing. She’s already come back and said that I’m going to be inside her next time, most likely – sadly, that may be a week or two just based on schedules. But the sexting picked up right away from then on, and started up again yesterday as well. WAY heavy. Since then, couple more days of heavy heavy sexting… interspersed with a couple days of normal chatting or even relative quiet (especially on weekends, as that’s “their” day at home – at least half of it).

I met her for a brief coffee this last week, was fun and light (lots of heavy texting after), and then on friday, for a couple of beers (and a long make-out session in the car, followed by sexting as she wanted me to cum to her). That was before / during / after our standing “platonic” thing. Good photos back and forth, etc. She made herself finish while texting with me one day too – and commented that maybe we should get a toy I can control from a ways away. Which, oddly enough, my wife already has one of for her ‘friend’. Looks like I need to buy another.

It sure as hell seems like she’s very into this – even with the cooler days in the middle (life? Busy? My mind is racing a bit here – I haven’t dated in over a decade, all my fun has been one-night-stands and flings for a day). She’s said she could see herself feeling for me, but isn’t there yet – “it’s like a fog – I can see where things could go, but not where they will go, or are going to go”, and that she’s scared of how this could end up. We texted and have talked a lot about that – we’ve all known each other for a long time. I’ll admit I am too – it’s going to already hurt a ton if this goes wrong, but we’re adults and can get past it (and have in the past once already), but I think we’re both also scared if it goes very very right. She’s commented on how easy this is… and that will be some very long conversations that both of us need to have with our associated spouses.

Some days she responds very readily to flirting (or even starts it), other days … less so. I suspect this has to do with if she’s around her spouse/partner or not, work, etc. Is that normal too? Can’t believe I’m even asking that, but back when I last did this, we were still using phones with numerical keypads… She's said that this is easy, feels normal, she's having a blast... I'm just trying to wrap my head around the "r-rated to PG-rated" swings, although in person it's almost always very touchy-feely. She's also said that she made sure she hadn't had anything to drink for a couple of the dates, as she was worried this was the drinks talking - and she felt the same without it, which made her feel better.





So, now that I’m finally posting this – and I know I’ve got NRE and am overanalyzing / over-thinking / going slightly insane, any thoughts on the above, the first/second set of questions, or anything else? She’s clearly into this, right? I'm not losing my mind?





Also, anyone who’s transitioned from a DADT to something more… any tips on how to even start that conversation? My wife’s friend is getting closer and they’re planning their first meet or two, I’m just not even sure how to start that discussion.

 

[icesong]

At least in my experience the wild oscillations between ecstasy and guilt were part and parcel of the first few months of my first poly relationship, and I've talked to others that had the same. Didn't mean I wasn't into it, just meant there was a lot of societal programming and personal habits of thought as to why this was wrong or not ok that I was overcoming. (And I came to poly from a somewhat similar background of swinging / casual nonmonogamy, so I was used to sex but not really emotionally intimate relationships.)

As for the R to PG to X swings? Totally a thing and has been for the entirety of my relationship with Artist -maybe it's just the beauty of text? Although we do it in real life in somewhat hilarious ways too.

I have no comments on DADT other than that I think that having one is playing with fire if you're going to have anything as intimate as what you describe with Kayla. At some point - maybe far in the future - she's going to want to be more acknowledged in your real life. Admittedly I am somewhat of a stickler about "I won't be around a partner's {friend/family/whatever} if our relationship isn't acknowledged - you don't have to tell them but if you don't tell them I don't want to meet them". And if y'all end up with a relationship that's longer term than a few makeouts it's pretty hard to have a relationship that is THAT parallel. Does your wife already know Kayla, given how long you've been friends? As even if technically you're following the letter of your DADT if they know each other it might not feel like you're following the spirit when she does eventually know.

(And welcome to the board, by the way!)

 

[Rickmanger]

Thank you for the welcome, and for the insanely well thought out reply. My wife does know Kayla; they're not close but they are friends of a sort (better than acquaintances, but very different personalities so they don't really hang out unless it's with all of us). Kayla/Joe/Bryan and I were all pretty similar in interests and personality - the Wife shares some of those interests, but not many. I get what you're saying about them knowing and the spirit of the rule... I honestly half expected (even though I think I knew) that kayla would say no when I asked to kiss her. Or that it'd be a quick peck and then done. I didn't think... things would happen.

I'm guessing also that since Kayla/Brian was really a "why not fling" for Kayla that she didn't experience them then, and since this is ... more? ... she is now. I know I've bounced a bit on it, but from my perspective, it's almost like something I buried for a very long time suddenly broke free of the earth and is sitting there smiling at me. And it makes me insanely happy. My wife also makes me insanely happy. At the same time. Which ... is hard for me to grasp, but I suspect easier for many on here - I'm trying to learn.

I may not have explained the DADT portion as well as I should have - it's not that my wife isn't interested in poly (or even open to it; we seem to collect a lot of friends in that situation) as much as she's anxious about it - for the likely obvious reasons. That's why we set a current boundary at that point, after a few "less than good" situations early on (not even boundaries crossed, just ... anxiety). Kayla and I have discussed that I don't want to hold her in the closet if she doesn't want to be - IF this works out, and looks like it's something more than just a couple-of-month fling/whatever, I'll start figuring out how to have those conversations about that boundary. She is very accepting of this, and doesn't want to step on toes any more than I do - we're also dealing with Joe, who's coming to grips (quite well, mind you - he's got a live in paramour after all) with this, and how ready he is for his wife to be openly dating another man. So, our goal is to take it slow, and not rock certain boats until it's clear that this is something we want longer-term, and not just a "holy shit I get to make out / whatever with someone I've wanted to for a long time", especially if it happens to quietly burn out in a month or two. Does that make sense? Do I sound insane?

I think part of me is also trying to make sure I'm not reading into this too much. My heart is racing - my palms get sweaty - I have feelings... and Kayla certainly has said that she does too... and acted like it (and I've read all the more than two sites on how I shouldn't be reading into this, but NRE and sanity don't go hand in hand all the time), but that little lizard part of the brain that has been quietly shut up for over a decade is saying "uh uh, you're reading into it, she's just a friend man, go back to your book!" - and I have a hell of a time shutting that little bastard up some nights. Casual bar flings are REALLY different than dating.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

You just have to make your own mistakes. This could all turn out well and us interfering and saying oh don't do this and don't do that might stop a good thing because even when I think you guys have made some... interesting choices, you communicate well enough to avoid disasters.

The thing I can see contributing to disaster is where you need access to each other's private correspondence to feel comfortable. I think you should try your best to find comfort in trust instead. You seem to be loving people. Trust that.

 

[Rickmanger]

You just have to make your own mistakes. This could all turn out well and us interfering and saying oh don't do this and don't do that might stop a good thing because even when I think you guys have made some... interesting choices, you communicate well enough to avoid disasters.

The thing I can see contributing to disaster is where you need access to each other's private correspondence to feel comfortable. I think you should try your best to find comfort in trust instead. You seem to be loving people. Trust that.

In opposite order: I should point out that the correspondence is normally part of the stag/vixen or hotwife kink side of things - it's literally a turn-on for me watching / seeing my wife flirt, etc, as it is for my wife (under the right circumstances). That... may shift if things get more serious here, at least in some ways. The comfort level is for the first couple of weeks (again, something that might shift, but it's also an easy way to make the other side feel "ok" about things early on), then it's more about the "that's bloody hot" side. It's a different world, but different strokes, different folks.

If I may ask - what interesting choices do you think we've made? I'm hoping this turns out well; we're all talking as much as possible to make sure it turns out well, but ... we weren't thinking as much as reacting at times.

 

[icesong]

I should point out that the correspondence is normally part of the stag/vixen or hotwife kink side of things - it's literally a turn-on for me watching / seeing my wife flirt, etc, as it is for my wife (under the right circumstances). That... may shift if things get more serious here, at least in some ways.

As I’ve mentioned, I do get the hotwife thing, as it’s something Knight is very into. And when we were early in this journey it seemed only reasonable to share conversations, both for the kink aspect and, once we ended up in a ridiculously problematic quad, to try and figure out wtf was going on emotionally etc. In retrospect, there were a couple issues with this. One is that at the time I didn’t really have permission from then-partners to share those experiences and conversations; I’ve since made sure that if I’m with someone that I will want to share details of sexual experiences about that I get consent for it and I just don’t share conversations that way, as keeping some privacy for my other relationships feels important.
I’d say that over time, don’t be surprised if that _does_ shift if emotional intimacy grows; at one point I enthusiastically shared details of my sexual adventures with Knight but when those adventures also had emotional import, that started to feel very odd. So I started limiting those details when it came to Artist (if I was to have a random hookup I wouldn’t care); I think this somewhat frustrates Knight though because, well, fetish.

If I may ask - what interesting choices do you think we've made? I'm hoping this turns out well; we're all talking as much as possible to make sure it turns out well, but ... we weren't thinking as much as reacting at times.

I personally put any choice where the terms of the arrangement are different for both sides of a couple in the category of “potentially problematic” / “interesting” - I understand that you and your wife (she needs a nickname here too?) have reasons but I think those reasons will eventually chafe someone - whether it’s you or your wife or your other partner are all equally likely. I’ve literally been on all sides of that equation over different issues (overnights, childcare arrangements, scheduling, openness on social media... lots of things) and double standards can work for a while but they’re eventually going to be... a thing.

 

[Rickmanger]

I do agree with both points. I suspect my wife considers her friend (another nickname... I'm going to need a name generator. Lets go with May and James for now) are more of a "fling" than anything else, but of course, that kind of thing can change. When emotions start to get involved, it becomes very different than a "kink/sex-play" thing, and I suspect that will shift then if hers takes off that way. She's never wanted ot know a ton of details (except initial flirting stuff) from my side (hence part of how that boundary was formed), and Joe is the same way (he outright told me - "I do NOT want to know what happens when you're together, or what you're talking about") - apparently Bryan was extremely into it, in an almost creepy way, with Samantha. Interrogation style.

And valid point on the second - I'm already ... considering how to potentially deal with that, when it finally comes to it. I still feel that making sure this may go somewhere before rocking that boat is the better idea - since I am, after all, allowed to have "flings" that don't come home, and there's no reason to announce a fling if that's all it is... but that does come back to the core question of "is this a fling, or is this something more?" - and I keep feeling/thinking it's something more, and we're both saying it's something more, but at the same time, that lizard part says I'm reading way too into things somehow, or that I'm in some weird upside down dream and going to wake up tomorrow with everything like it was and I'll be very very confused.

Am I crazy?

 

[Magdlyn]

I made my way through your long saga.

You're asking if you're crazy or insane. NRE makes us crazy, irrational. And if you really like someone, and it's suddenly turned overtly sexual, it's rocking your boat and your former expectations. It all sounds like you're experiencing perfectly normal adult relationship feelings and thoughts. It seems you're trying to navigate things, and be sensitive to the feelings/needs and desires of everyone. And you're nervous. You can never be sure when a friendship or fling will deepen to something more. And here you are!

I hope you have some good sex dates soon to get that out of the way and see how it all feels for everyone!

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

Well, you're choosing to put your comfort and sexual gratification above the privacy of a new person. That's easy to do when they are rhetorical and even when they are new, but at some point, when the person dating them starts to see them as a person they care about, they suddenly become this real person with thoughts, feelings, Hopes and desires. Now, there's the side of it where I could lecture you about how objectifying that is for the other person, who only becomes a real consideration once you develop feelings for them, but actually I want to focus on what that does to the pre-existing relationship.

See, what you're doing now sets up a premise that these actions you take are how you show your partner she matters and that you love her in the face of temptation. So when you suddenly change and want to change this foundation to accommodate the new person, there is no way for your partner to perceive that other than that you love her less and/or she matters less. This breeds competition and comparison which are the key catalysts to the breakdown of poly relationships.

For that reason, it is generally conducive to greater long term security to start as you mean to go on. Especially in certain areas.

 

[GalaGirl]

I don't know if this helps you or not. I came away with a different take after reading all that. Mainly -- SLOW DOWN. Because there's been abuse. I cannot totally tell from your writing but it seems relatively recent too. Not like 10, 15 years go.

PEOPLE

Stag/vixen swingers just starting in poly

• You
• Your wife, May

And then

• Her new dating potential, James. (He's a tangent in this story, but relevant since your wife is also trying to switch to poly so you both have agreements to sort out.)

In a V type triad:

• Your friend from college, Joe, is the hinge
• His wife, Kayla (who you dated twice back in college, and are starting a thing with now)
• Samantha, his GF (who recently broke up with abuser husband Bryan. Kayla also use to date Bryan.)

You introduced these couples to each other. They decided to do a couple swap and it became a couple swap gone bad.

• Bryan pushed Kayla quite inappropriately and was possible sexual assault.
• Samantha wanted to leave him, went back to Bryan, then left again and moved in with Joe and Kayla. It became clear that her marriage was highly toxic and abusive – something none of us knew about Bryan before.

(When did Kayla break up with Bryan? When did Samantha leave Bryan for good? How fresh is all this? How has YOUR Bryan recovery been? Even though you weren't in the direct line of fire, you may have some shock/baggage about him since you did not know how he really was. )

RECENT PAST

You were the one Joe, Kayla, and Samantha all talked to as a friend while working through the abuser/break up with abuser stuff.

You and Kayla started hanging out while Joe and Samantha were off on couple dates.

You realized you like her and she was flirting a lot so you checked in with Joe if it's ok with him if you ask her out/date his wife. He's fine.

You and Kayla go on a friend date where you start making out. So you consider it a real date.

PROBLEM – KAYLA GOING REALLY FAST

You haven’t dated in over a decade, all your fun has been one-night-stands and flings for a day, in a swing context. This is now polyamory and poly dating. You aren't sure how it goes.

Does it seem like she’s feeling something significant (an old flame rekindled), or maybe she was just really really into it the entire time, or just been hoping to get me in bed at some point and enjoying the fantasy turned reality? I’m not looking to change anyone’s situation here, but I’ll be damned if I don’t have some feelings too. And it all happened so fast, even the times afterwards via text…

I could be wrong but it sounds like you are confused with NRE and with Kayla going so fast into making out with you/dry humping, etc. You are worried about your own well being through all this.

It seems to bother you that she bounces between exhilarated and worried about participating here.

You seem to care about obtaining clear consent from her partner Joe.

• Why didn't Kayla go get clear consent herself? Does that bother you?
• How about you deal with your side and obtain clear consent from your own wife too? Because a DADT arrangement for "not near home" for swinging is not the same thing as clear poly agreements.

Your wife is starting to poly date and guy and you know about it.

• Does she know you are poly dating Kayla now?
• I suggest catching up the conversation with your wife first.

Given that Kayla's last attempt ended up abusive... and your concerns about “doing things right” – have you considered you both might want to slow it down a little?

There's a lot of lusty attraction and who knows? Maybe things will pan out. At the same time... slowing down and not jumping into bed too fast might be something to consider.

• So you both have some time to sort out consent with your other partners.
• So you have time to reflect if you really want to take up with one of your old exes as your first poly dating attempt. (Who was recently abused, and may come with baggage. )
• Who's whole household turns to you for “support friend.” (Dating Kayla makes it so you are IN that poly network now. NOT an objective outside friend. That's going to change a lot of dynamics. I hope you have good personal boundaries. You cannot be like a relationship counselor/free therapist for these people. And if things go wahoonie, would these have been YOUR support friends or do you have others to turn to? )

To me that would be at least a “whoa, slow down” if not a “skip this one entirely.”

Esp since you are worried about you having your own feelings and not getting run over. Like... of all the people to start poly dating, why pick one with so much extra baggage? Just because y'all were hanging out lots after big trauma? Do you know about trauma bonding?

Not trying to be a wet blanket. Just saying... THINK and go slow.

I'm hoping this turns out well; we're all talking as much as possible to make sure it turns out well, but ... we weren't thinking as much as reacting at times.

Well, now you are pulling back to do that thinking. So THINK.

So, our goal is to take it slow, and not rock certain boats until it's clear that this is something we want longer-term, and not just a "holy shit I get to make out / whatever with someone I've wanted to for a long time", especially if it happens to quietly burn out in a month or two. Does that make sense? Do I sound insane?

So what happens if you and Kayla get really attached to each other and THEN you go rock the boats and find out from respective spouses it's a deal breaker if you want to be "out" as poly? Wouldn't it be easier to find out where the deal breakers are before getting all attached?

Galagirl

 

[GalaGirl]

I still feel that making sure this may go somewhere before rocking that boat is the better idea - since I am, after all, allowed to have "flings" that don't come home, and there's no reason to announce a fling if that's all it is... but that does come back to the core question of "is this a fling, or is this something more?" - and I keep feeling/thinking it's something more, and we're both saying it's something more,

You and Kayla say it is more than a fling to each other. So it is more than fling. Period.

Best to loop in your wife May and update your agreements sooner than later. Could say "Wife, we need to talk. I'm not sure if this is a fling or becoming more, but it FEELS more. I thought it best to check in and try to keep up with my agreements with you rather than ignoring them. So I need to talk about updating agreements to accommodate my new situation."

FWIW, I don't think you are crazy. I think you are dealing with a lot of moving parts and the NRE /new to poly stuff is clouding some thinking. Yet you seem to want to do "the right thing." So keep doing it. Don't wimp out.

Galagirl

 

[Rickmanger]

I don't know if this helps you or not. I came away with a different take after reading all that. Mainly -- SLOW DOWN. Because there's been abuse. I cannot totally tell from your writing but it seems relatively recent too. Not like 10, 15 years go.

PEOPLE

Stag/vixen swingers just starting in poly

• You
• Your wife, May

And then

• Her new dating potential, James. (He's a tangent in this story, but relevant since your wife is also trying to switch to poly so you both have agreements to sort out.)

In a V type triad:

• Your friend from college, Joe, is the hinge
• His wife, Kayla (who you dated twice back in college, and are starting a thing with now)
• Samantha, his GF (who recently broke up with abuser husband Bryan. Kayla also use to date Bryan.)

You introduced these couples to each other. They decided to do a couple swap and it became a couple swap gone bad.

• Bryan pushed Kayla quite inappropriately and was possible sexual assault.
• Samantha wanted to leave him, went back to Bryan, then left again and moved in with Joe and Kayla. It became clear that her marriage was highly toxic and abusive – something none of us knew about Bryan before.

(When did Kayla break up with Bryan? When did Samantha leave Bryan for good? How fresh is all this? How has YOUR Bryan recovery been? Even though you weren't in the direct line of fire, you may have some shock/baggage about him since you did not know how he really was. )

Kayla and Bryan broke up a year ago. Samantha and Joe also broke up at that time, then decided to keep seeing each other (as other parts of this came out), and then she left for the first time in October of last year. Left for good and filed for divorce in February of this year.

My recovery has been fine - I had a ton of therapy years ago on dealing with toxic individuals and setting those boundaries - he unloaded on me (rightfully so), and then chose to cut all of us (including me) off entirely, even before Samantha left for good. We've pushed him to get help (he needs it), but he refuses. At a certain point, from my perspective, you cut your losses. I dealt with all that months ago, thank goodness - and he's pretty much gone entirely. Thank you for asking though.

RECENT PAST

You were the one Joe, Kayla, and Samantha all talked to as a friend while working through the abuser/break up with abuser stuff.

You and Kayla started hanging out while Joe and Samantha were off on couple dates.

You realized you like her and she was flirting a lot so you checked in with Joe if it's ok with him if you ask her out/date his wife. He's fine.

You and Kayla go on a friend date where you start making out. So you consider it a real date.

PROBLEM – KAYLA GOING REALLY FAST

You haven’t dated in over a decade, all your fun has been one-night-stands and flings for a day, in a swing context. This is now polyamory and poly dating. You aren't sure how it goes.

They'd literally been two friends hanging out until it became a date one day. But yes, you're accurate. She also considered it a date at that point - and she's admitted she was flirting hoping for a reaction.

I could be wrong but it sounds like you are confused with NRE and with Kayla going so fast into making out with you/dry humping, etc. You are worried about your own well being through all this.

It seems to bother you that she bounces between exhilarated and worried about participating here.

You seem to care about obtaining clear consent from her partner Joe.

• Why didn't Kayla go get clear consent herself? Does that bother you?
• How about you deal with your side and obtain clear consent from your own wife too? Because a DADT arrangement for "not near home" for swinging is not the same thing as clear poly agreements.

Having talked to her about that - she had consent (Joe had given it ~a month before when we were all hanging out, but she hadn't remembered it at the time after kissing, and she wasn't sure he was serious). He's since made it very clear to her that he really was serious about that - she's free to date, and free to date me if she chooses. I remembered that she had consent, so it didn't bother me at the time - I assumed (and yes, I know what assuming does) she remembered too - and she did when I reminded her of it, although she was still worried that he hadn't meant it. that part has been VERY well talked out at this point.

And yes, I agree with the second - that's what I'm trying to figure out now as well, assuming this doesn't quietly burn out in a month or two.

Your wife is starting to poly date and guy and you know about it.

• Does she know you are poly dating Kayla now?
• I suggest catching up the conversation with your wife first.

Given that Kayla's last attempt ended up abusive... and your concerns about “doing things right” – have you considered you both might want to slow it down a little?

No, she does not. And abusive - he tried to push past her saying no one night, while Joe/Samantha were there, and they kicked him out of the house (and samantha left too). That's why I said borderline - Kayla was angry and hurt, but this was a one-time "line was crossed that I consider a total show-stopper, we're done," not an ongoing thing. It came out later that he was that way at home too (Samantha is getting therapy for that). And yes, trying to slow it down some... but it's also hard when I see her.

There's a lot of lusty attraction and who knows? Maybe things will pan out. At the same time... slowing down and not jumping into bed too fast might be something to consider.

• So you both have some time to sort out consent with your other partners.
• So you have time to reflect if you really want to take up with one of your old exes as your first poly dating attempt. (Who was recently abused, and may come with baggage. )
• Who's whole household turns to you for “support friend.” (Dating Kayla makes it so you are IN that poly network now. NOT an objective outside friend. That's going to change a lot of dynamics. I hope you have good personal boundaries. You cannot be like a relationship counselor/free therapist for these people. And if things go wahoonie, would these have been YOUR support friends or do you have others to turn to? )

I'm pushing them to see a poly-friendly couples counselor that my wife and I have seen a lot in the past. I obviously CANNOT be the neutral party now, as you point out - I'm part of this now. The counselor I know and recommended is very very good, and very familiar with alternative lifestyle and relationship choices. I'll point out that we're not in any hurry to actually jump in bed - although we love the flirting and sexting. I've even suggested that if/when/however this comes out, that ALL of us see the counselor a few times, to help get things on the right foot. I do have an alternative support group as well if this goes pear shaped, a separate non-involved group of close friends.

To me that would be at least a “whoa, slow down” if not a “skip this one entirely.”

Esp since you are worried about you having your own feelings and not getting run over. Like... of all the people to start poly dating, why pick one with so much extra baggage? Just because y'all were hanging out lots after big trauma? Do you know about trauma bonding?

I do. The first couple of times might have been, but after that, it was our old friendship back (at least from what I felt), like we used to hang out all the time. I literally used to see these people 2-3 times a week before moving farther away (and life got busy, you know how that goes).

Not trying to be a wet blanket. Just saying... THINK and go slow.



Well, now you are pulling back to do that thinking. So THINK.



So what happens if you and Kayla get really attached to each other and THEN you go rock the boats and find out from respective spouses it's a deal breaker if you want to be "out" as poly? Wouldn't it be easier to find out where the deal breakers are before getting all attached?

Galagirl

I... don't know. Good point. Very good point. I have no idea what would happen then. It's one of the reasons we haven't had sex yet - that makes it "real real", not just whatever it currently is.

 

[kdt26417]

Hello Rickmanger,

It seems like you have a good thing going with Kayla. I agree with GalaGirl, to take it slow, and I do think it is time to tell May about it, as well as get Joe's permission for you to have sex with Kayla as that seems to be imminent. (And it might be Kayla's job to be the one who asks him for that permission.) In general just exercise some caution, it's obvious that you and Kayla want to go deeper with this relationship, but you don't want May and Joe to freak out. So take it slow, and keep us posted here as the situation evolves.

With regards,
Kevin T.

 

[Magdlyn]

I see I saw things differently. I think the cybersex has been so intense, and your words of desire so ardent, on both sides, it seems pretty "real real" to me!

 

[Magdlyn]

Hello Rickmanger,

It seems like you have a good thing going with Kayla. I agree with GalaGirl, to take it slow, and I do think it is time to tell May about it, as well as get Joe's permission for you to have sex with Kayla as that seems to be imminent. (And it might be Kayla's job to be the one who asks him for that permission.)

I agree, Kayla needs to have Joe on board. But I thought that was already quite determined? He's positive about it. And it's not "permission," remember, since he's not her father or boss or master. It's consent.

exercise some caution. It's obvious that you and Kayla want to go deeper with this relationship, but you don't want May and Joe to freak out.

Joe isn't freaking out, and May has a bf herself, so she has no right to object.

 

[Rickmanger]

You and Kayla say it is more than a fling to each other. So it is more than fling. Period.

Best to loop in your wife May and update your agreements sooner than later. Could say "Wife, we need to talk. I'm not sure if this is a fling or becoming more, but it FEELS more. I thought it best to check in and try to keep up with my agreements with you rather than ignoring them. So I need to talk about updating agreements to accommodate my new situation."

FWIW, I don't think you are crazy. I think you are dealing with a lot of moving parts and the NRE /new to poly stuff is clouding some thinking. Yet you seem to want to do "the right thing." So keep doing it. Don't wimp out.

Galagirl

I hadn't thought of it that way. She's definitely said she has feelings. We've joked a bit about titles (are we boyfriend/girlfriend? Mistresses? What?). But I hadn't thought about it that way - saying those things (out loud, in text, etc) multiple times means something.

 

[Rickmanger]

I agree, Kayla needs to have Joe on board. But I thought that was already quite determined? He's positive about it. And it's not "permission," remember, since he's not her father or boss or master. It's consent.



Joe isn't freaking out, and May has a bf herself, so she has no right to object.

Joe knows and is on board - I'm not sure how he would feel about sex at this point, yet, but he knows and is very aware that we are dating, and has given his consent.