Unconsciously primary/secondary?

[Valynn]

Valynn, do you live with Angela and JR?

I'm hoping you don't. You say you're solo poly, and have another partner, so I assume you live alone and host that other partner at your place?

No, I currently live with my mother, but my son just got out of the Navy and we are going to get a place together in the future. I do not bring anyone home. We go to motels or, in the case of my other partner, play at overnight medieval events.

I hear that you and Angela both are entrepreneurs with handmade products, and you set up at events together to sell your wares. You and JR were attracted to each other 8 years ago, but couldn't date because of work rules.

Now, you're good friends and more or less business partners with Angela. And all of a sudden you get more deeply involved with both. Not just friends, not just business partners, but lovers.

I do have a soapmaking business. Angela works pharmacy retail in a chain drug store and does her art on the side. But yes we do work together at events.

Angela and I worked together at a small gaming store from 2009 til it closed in 2012. We became friends then. I personally think we are business partners, Angela doesn't. She feels that she does her art as a hobby.

Yes, It was totally out of the blue how we all got together. We had been all flirting with one another for years. I think it became stronger when I kissed both of them passionately as the ball dropped on NYE. Then the next month Angela asked if I wanted to use their extra room as a crafting room for my business. I accepted. That same night we were playing D&D and drinking. And I jokingly said this could become strip D&D. They both said ok .......need I say more?

And yet, Angela has reproductive surgery and can't have sex for a while, but you and JR (being in a long awaited place of finally able to have sex) go ahead and have frequent sex while Angela is out of commission.

Correct. Angela had her emergency reproductive surgery in early March.

Angela may be a nice person, and you may get along great. But maybe you two relate well because you BOTH have low self esteem and weak boundaries. She has told JR she's not worthy of a relationship with HIM. And now she's going along with a so-called triad because she still feels unworthy of love from anyone, so goes against her own desires of monogamy, to keep JR, and have you as a sex partner too.

She has told both JR & I that she feels unworthy of us (singularly & together). But she is afraid that she is doing this to make us happy. And she'd eventually come to resent us, even though it wasn't us that made her make the decision in the first place.

And you, to avoid "making" her feel bad, semi go along with her wishes (have sex but don't make love), or only do oral or digital sex when you know full well she meant any kind of sex, not just PIV, was "not allowed." And then she yells at you both after the fact, and she's in pain, and it's late, and you two have a big business event the next morning... and you and JR feel you have to bow to her wishes just so everyone can get some sleep. But you don't really agree in your hearts that she has the right to control the sex life you share with JR.

Exactly.

If I were you, I'd step back a bit. I HOPE you haven't moved in with them. Do your business with Angela. If you're going to keep dating JR, let him come to your place... if he's "allowed." If he isn't "allowed," it's on him as a hinge to work things out with Angela..

That's the least you can do.

The most you can do is what GG recommends. Step away from the wonky. These people are not good poly dating prospects. Don't attempt to placate Angela by accepting a key, and discussing handfasting! Yikes! She is doing a push pull. Take a key! Let's be planning handfasting! But you can't fuck or "make love" with "my" man. And I'm gonna have panic attacks and fits every times I feel insecure!

This does not sound like a runner here. Sorry.

The key was mainly for ease of access to my supplies & product on my own with neither Angela or JR need to let me into their apartment. And if I am going to be over for a weekend and have a medieval group meeting, I can let myself in. Angela won't have to feel unsafe leaving the door unlocked for me.

I have told them that I feel a little blindsided by not knowing about their problems & them not being as stable as I originally had thought. I also said I wouldn't have moved so fast if I knew of it. But, I was not going to just up and leave them either.
I said that they need to stabilize their relationship for anything to work. They need to be honest & accepting their own wants & needs as well as their partner's. And explained that I wasn't giving them an ultimatum. More like "now we all know, how can we work to fix it?" They both said that they work on their end.

I have said to Angela that maybe going back on her meds would be good for her well being, but right now the price of the meds is her stopping her. I am hoping since she hasn't been on her meds for a while (she won't tell me & is rationing her last supply) she will have to go see therapist.

I have been trying to look at the bigger picture here with them (yes, trees vs forest ) And I realize that nothing can be a perfect. Only time will tell if this works or not. Either way I am prepared to do my part for my well being.

 

[Valynn]

Update so many developments...it all matters trust me

April 22nd: My sister Elaine had left her abusive husband with her 2 teenage boys & has moved back into my mom's house. I do not get along with my sister. And even thought I sympathize with her situation, being an domestic abuse survivor myself. She refuses to even accept my help, support or advice (being the younger sis sucks ass)
April 26th morning: We had such a bad fight (my mother had to be in between Elaine & I, so Elaine wouldn't physically attack me) that I left and stayed with Angela & JR.
April 26th afternoon, 27th & 28th: We discuss if there is a possibility of me staying with them temporarily until I can find my own place. JR says yes immediately. Angela says she isn't sure and she'd think about it. After JR goes to work Angela tells me that she isn't looking for a live-in girlfriend. I in response tell her I am not looking to move in permanently. I just need a place to crash. She feels it's ok for the weekends, but other than that the landlord might up their rent.
On Saturday morning, Angela tells us that she feels well enough to have resume playing with us. BUT when JR & I are just making out on the couch while she is in the shower later in the day. She assumes due the noises I was making that more was happening and is upset with us.
She says that she is really angry that JR & I would wait till she was in the shower go behind her back to fuck. Which we denied but she was too far gone to believe us.
Later she tried to explain herself but ends up demanding that we do not even kiss without her being around. With all the stress I had been under I immediately quietly closed the door to the craft room after she left. Turned on my Pandora music & burst into tears.
JR & Angela talk for what seems like forever (more like a 1/2 hour) then they both come into the room. Angela immediately apologizes saying all she was seeing was me taking over her place & not thinking about my feelings and what I had been through the past week. I believe we all talked it through.

April 29th - May 2nd Elaine continues to take offense to anything I say & will completely lose it if I contradict her on anything, even my own personal experiences. It gets so bad that I can't sigh without her thinking that it's directed towards her. All this drama with Elaine & her crazy husband and her animosity towards me is making my own domestic abuse PTSD go bonkers.
May 3rd- 5th: Good weekend with JR & Angela. We went to karaoke with Dexus on Saturday.
As I get dropped off at my Mother's on Sunday evening, Elaine opens the door & gripes "Ya fucking scared the piss out of me!"
I, not knowing what had transpired over the weekend, comment "Well, good evening to you as well!" Which she thankfully ignored. Her husband had been claiming that he'd come over and take the car all weekend.
It wasn't until later that we learned he had been arrested and put on an involuntary mental hold for 7-10 days. It hasn't stopped him from calling her incessantly though.
May 6th - present: So far this week has been better. I am rarely around Elaine since she went back to the house to take care of the pets and found that the house looked like a tornado ripped through it. She is now in the process of cleaning the house. If her family court date in the morning, is in her favor she may move back with the kids, easing tensions here. Otherwise I shall keep going between home & their apartment. *sigh* I hope things get settled soon.

 

[GalaGirl]

Hang in there!

While I'm sympathetic to sister Elaine trying to leave abusive husband, I can totally see where it can affect your OWN trigger stuff. I can imagine it is hard for you right now. Kinda feeling "homeless" like there is NO calm, safe space to be at anywhere right now. With all these other people wigging out.

She refuses to even accept my help, support or advice (being the younger sis sucks ass)

You know what? If you offer? She IS allowed to decline. So stop offering any advice related to her divorce process or abuse healing process or parenting or anything. Only offer small practical things like "I'm gonna wash my towels. Want me to wash yours too?" if anything. (Assuming you are willing to do those kinds of small tasks.) Stay out of her process esp since it triggers your own past stuff.

Elaine continues to take offense to anything I say & will completely lose it if I contradict her on anything, even my own personal experiences

Why do you feel the need to share your personal experiences with her when you find her triggering?

As I get dropped off at my Mother's on Sunday evening, Elaine opens the door & gripes "Ya fucking scared the piss out of me!"
I, not knowing what had transpired over the weekend, comment "Well, good evening to you as well!"

I could be wrong, but to me that sounds like you guys are stuck in "old tape" like "the big sis/lil sis routine" and that record album plays snarky talk a lot.

Could change the record. Could choose to be charitable and ignore HOW it was said and respond to the feelings behind the words instead. She's basically saying she was scared. Could have said "Oops, sorry about that! didn't know you were there. Didn't meant to startle you" and then moved on with your day. You don't have to know that she was scared because the STBX was calling and threatening to come over to be basic polite to her.

Had you opened a door on a stranger in a restaurant bathroom and spooked them you would have said "Oops, sorry about that! Didn't know you were there. Didn't meant to startle you" right? You don't have to LOVE her behaviors right now. Just be basic polite like you would any stranger.

Elaine is adjusting to pending divorce and on edge if wacky STBX hubby is harassing her on the phone. That leaves her all porcupine prickly with EVERYONE because she's on edge. I get why she's like that right now but it's not fun to be around! So minimize your dealings in that. Stay scarce and be basic polite when you do run into her.

Angela is struggling with poly hell sounding things and is territorial. It sounds like she's trying to let it go, but you being over so much because of the Elaine stuff might be pushing her faster than she can actually go on resolving all that inside herself. So then SHE is all prickly porcupine too.

Even though you worked it out in the end with Angela? I think you could keep moving it forward and get an apartment of your own with your Navy son. Maybe step that up. Then keep your craft room business stuff in your OWN home rather than theirs so you don't have to be struggling with either the Angela weird or the Elaine weird. JR can see you at your place without Angela policing sex.

For now...you stay with another relative, friend, or hotel rather than Angela and JR? Get some calm space that way?

It's kinda like you don't want Elaine and her STBX weird breaking up relationship all up in your face at home.

Which is the same with Angela -- she doesn't want you and JR relationship all up in her face in her home.

Hang in there!

Galagirl

 

[ElMango]

My issue is even though Angela says she is a go with the flow, no label type & doesn't want a hierarchical structure. She keeps saying things that just scream primary/secondary to me, and upset me. And most times it's like she is oblivious to how it sounds.

Maybe she meant it before, but until she got the hang of things, and figured out her emotions then; they changed. Maybe, if you can, sit down one on one or as group to see if you can talk and share feelings?

"I will allow JR to give you orgasms tonight."

That's...very controlling. How does JR feel about this? How does it make you feel?

Two weeks ago she had a ovarian cyst, one fallopian tube & ovary removed. She cannot have sex until late April. She said when she was leaving the hospital : "Since I can't have sex, neither can you two."

I think she's jealous and insecure and may not even realize it. She may be lashing out to make herself feel safer or better. Not acceptable at all, and certainy not hurtful, but it may be a good jumping off point.

Just this past week JR took me to lunch & to see "How To Train Your Dragon 3". She texts me: " By the way, it would have been nice to ask me if I wanted to see the dragon movie. I would have gone on one of the days this week before or after work. But I am glad you & JR enjoyed it. At least you finally got to have a date with him alone. Get it out of your system."

That sounds very hurtful to me. And, I feel like her and JR have some things they need to talk about, just not oyu and her.

And this morning, as she was leaving for a work related party. "You can fuck, but you cannot make love."

I recognize the difference between fucking and making love. But, are you and JR in love? Then...how could you separate the two fully? Even kinky sex, when you love a person, has love in it.

I don't know how to talk to her without her felling attacked. It's all very subtle and passive/agressive to me. I know that alot of this is coming from her insecurties & unresolved jealousy issues. We both work hard to make her feel loved & appreciated. Especially now that she is still healing. But this still hurts me & I would like to resolve this quickly.

This needs to be a team effort to talk about. Not just a you. Try to be calm, try to find out the easiest way to get feelings heard for everyone; work together on this. Write out your feelings first and use "I feel" statements to the best of your abilities.
I hope this resolves quickly, but be sure to not rush anything. Slow and steady wins the race.

much love

 

[Valynn]

While I'm sympathetic to sister Elaine trying to leave abusive husband, I can totally see where it can affect your OWN trigger stuff. I can imagine it is hard for you right now. Kinda feeling "homeless" like there is NO calm, safe space to be at anywhere right now. With all these other people wigging out.

Exactly & TY

You know what? If you offer? She IS allowed to decline. So stop offering any advice related to her divorce process or abuse healing process or parenting or anything. Only offer small practical things like "I'm gonna wash my towels. Want me to wash yours too?" if anything. (Assuming you are willing to do those kinds of small tasks.) Stay out of her process esp since it triggers your own past stuff.

Why do you feel the need to share your personal experiences with her when you find her triggering?

I haven't been forcing my experiences on her. And I have offered to do small things & been shot down.

I could be wrong, but to me that sounds like you guys are stuck in "old tape" like "the big sis/lil sis routine" and that record album plays snarky talk a lot.

Could change the record. Could choose to be charitable and ignore HOW it was said and respond to the feelings behind the words instead. She's basically saying she was scared. Could have said "Oops, sorry about that! didn't know you were there. Didn't meant to startle you" and then moved on with your day. You don't have to know that she was scared because the STBX was calling and threatening to come over to be basic polite to her.

Elaine is adjusting to pending divorce and on edge if wacky STBX hubby is harassing her on the phone. That leaves her all porcupine prickly with EVERYONE because she's on edge. I get why she's like that right now but it's not fun to be around! So minimize your dealings in that. Stay scarce and be basic polite when you do run into her.

I agree. I really don't think she wants to hear that I have any experience more than her.
I have been avoiding being around her & rarely will add anything to a conversation useless specifically asked.

Angela is struggling with poly hell sounding things and is territorial. It sounds like she's trying to let it go, but you being over so much because of the Elaine stuff might be pushing her faster than she can actually go on resolving all that inside herself. So then SHE is all prickly porcupine too.

Even though you worked it out in the end with Angela? I think you could keep moving it forward and get an apartment of your own with your Navy son. Maybe step that up. Then keep your craft room business stuff in your OWN home rather than theirs so you don't have to be struggling with either the Angela weird or the Elaine weird. JR can see you at your place without Angela policing sex.

For now...you stay with another relative, friend, or hotel rather than Angela and JR? Get some calm space that way?

It's kinda like you don't want Elaine and her STBX weird breaking up relationship all up in your face at home.

Which is the same with Angela -- she doesn't want you and JR relationship all up in her face in her home.

Hang in there!

Galagirl

1) I understand and didn't want to put anymore stress & pressure on Angela. I just needed a refuge from my own stress at home.
2) Getting my own place w/Dexus hasn't changed, just pushed back a bit.
3) I don't have any other relatives to crash with. I do have a friend that would open their house to me. But then I'd be in the same household with my most recent failed poly relationship ex's. Not good. And I have little money outside of my business.
4) You are correct, I really don't want any of these energies to contaminate my newly budding relationship. I am aware of my own insecurities rearing their ugly heads. But I can, & will, work through them. I also understand that Angela doesn't want the JR & Valynn PDA show 24/7 either.

 

[1234567]

Consent

I have not read all the replies because of a brain injury, but in your shoes-

I would straight up say,

“I’m sorry, I really cannot have someone else having consent over my sex life. We need to have a talk and find a different solution that works for all.

Poly ended up terribly traumatic for me— and that’s because I was in the exact same situation— I was in a triad,’and someone tried to assert consent over my sex life—and I allowed it.

I literally only got over it this weekend by figuring out what went wrong and why it was traumatic- and the sexual assertion stopped 5 years ago. There’s a lot of newbies to a triad relationship that find the same, to the point many feel it abusive (and it can be). I would hate for you to be there too. For me, it took A. A year away from poly, and B Someone attempting to date rape me, and figuring out why it felt so similar
Before I could. I hope sharing what I figured out can help guide you to a more empowered place than I wa

Someone asserting authority over you that you do not consent to is wrong. You can take it from a kink OR abuse perspective and see that.

We tend to give people passes when they do this if they are a meta— and especially if we are in a triad with them—but we shouldn’t.

Your body is yours. What you do with it is yours. People should only get consent to limit that if you voluntarily let it. That extend to metas and control on your relationship as well. It might be that you are generous as a couple to the meta who is im poly he’ll- but that should be consensual.

It is okay to bring something to the table to negotiate/- and fine a win/win/win/win/win/win/win solution. (Works for all individuals and all relationships.)

But dictating this creates at best a win/neutral/lose/lose/lose/lose/lose solution— she may win; their relationship may remain neutral- for now; all other relationships and people lose
.
Her working on her insecurity with GREAT SUPPORT from all of you, and you deciding if you can slow down to accommodate, but only offering that if you are free NOT to is the only win/win/win/win/win/win solution I can see. But you may have better ideas and more info.

You are welcome to message me if you want to talk it over.

 

[Valynn]

Update: Progress? Or One step forward, two steps back...

This past weekend Angela, JR & I went to a local LGBTQ+ picnic. We found a table and JR left to get some food & drinks. Angela had brought her guitar and we were having fun singing.
After a while an old friend of Angela's, Renee, shows up. They begin chatting and Renee asks how Angela has been doing. Angela immediately gushes "Well JR & I have been together for 6yrs." I kinda tune out the conversation and begin to look for more song lyrics on my phone. When I feel Angela put her arm around my shoulders. I look at Angela as she says to Renee, "and this is my girlfriend Valynn. JR and I have been dating her for about 3 months."
I almost fell off the bench flabbergasted, but happy. This was totally against what she had asked for in the 'social requirements' as the dating couple. So I turn to Renee as she asks Angela "how does that work?" I begin said that we are a triad- but then Angela interrupts me an generally says we are primary/secondary. I look back over at Angela to correct her. But then Renee puts her hand on my knee & says "Aww, don't look so shocked sweety." That stops me in my tracks cause the last thing I wanted to do is air our grievances at a public picnic, so I stopped talking. A while later JR returned, so I went over to the car & tried to explain what happened while he was gone. But he was so happy about Angela's initial introduction of me, I decided to talk to them about it later privately. But because Angela was not feeling well. I never got the chance.
This weekend I am going to sit them down and clearly & concisely talk to them. I cannot keep going around in circles explaining myself and my hurt feelings only to have nothing change.

 

[kdt26417]

It kind of sounds like Angela is still something of a problem. You were wise to hold off on talking about it, but I'm sure it still chafes. I take it you do not want to be considered a secondary. You certainly don't want to be introduced as one. I don't blame you, I wouldn't want that either.

 

[ElMango]

So I turn to Renee as she asks Angela "how does that work?" I begin said that we are a triad- but then Angela interrupts me an generally says we are primary/secondary. I look back over at Angela to correct her. But then Renee puts her hand on my knee & says "Aww, don't look so shocked sweety." That stops me in my tracks cause the last thing I wanted to do is air our grievances at a public picnic, so I stopped talking. A while later JR returned, so I went over to the car & tried to explain what happened while he was gone. But he was so happy about Angela's initial introduction of me, I decided to talk to them about it later privately. But because Angela was not feeling well. I never got the chance.
This weekend I am going to sit them down and clearly & concisely talk to them. I cannot keep going around in circles explaining myself and my hurt feelings only to have nothing change.

Sitting them down is a good idea, you can't keep talking and not be heard; that isn't fair.

TO me, Renee putting her hand on your knee and what she said sounds really patronizing, is that how it felt for you? Especially with Angela already being dismissive of the relationship you guys do have.

 

[Valynn]

Sitting them down is a good idea, you can't keep talking and not be heard; that isn't fair.

TY, she will say one thing to me, then will act or say something totally different shortly afterward.

To me, Renee putting her hand on your knee and what she said sounds really patronizing, is that how it felt for you? Especially with Angela already being dismissive of the relationship you guys do have.

I don't think so. Renee saw my reaction to what Angela was saying and I think she didn't want me to explode. Angela seemed completely oblivious.

 

[ElMango]

I don't think so. Renee saw my reaction to what Angela was saying and I think she didn't want me to explode. Angela seemed completely oblivious.

Ooooh okay! That makes sense as well; especially since tone changes everything too

That's good that Renee was there for you to help you stay centered. I'm rpoud of you for being able to. I know that would have been a tough situation for me to handle and you handled it in a really positive way

 

[Valynn]

Ooooh okay! That makes sense as well; especially since tone changes everything too

That's good that Renee was there for you to help you stay centered. I'm rpoud of you for being able to. I know that would have been a tough situation for me to handle and you handled it in a really positive way

The thing is I had just met Renee. She caught on quickly that Angela said something I did not agree with. She diffused the situation.

 

[ElMango]

The fact she caught on and Angela didn't seems weird. To me Angela should have noticed. I can super see why you're upset

Let us know when you all talked or if you need anything!

 

[Valynn]

Final update

This morning we had a spontaneous discussion. Angela suggested that we shouldn't force ourselves to all have a relationship together. And that it would be selfish of her to deny JR & I our feelings for one another. She said that she felt bad for constantly putting restrictions on our relationship. And that it was upseting her. She came to realize that since she lives with JR that it wasn't fair to me that she was trying to control my time with JR. She also admitted that she doesn't feel as sexually attracted to me as she does with JR. She was afraid that if she told me how she was feeling. That I would feel rejected and break it off. In which I told her that was not the case. I actually used a line from GalaGirl's advice and said she was only speaking her truth. And how could I be upset with that?

So we have all agreed to continue as a V instead of a triad. And down the road we will sit down again and see if this is working. We shall remain close friends, co-workers & now metamours. I am so relieved that this didn't become a huge drama-filled fight.

 

[kdt26417]

Glad to hear it turned out well.

 

[GalaGirl]

I am glad you all talked more honestly. hope a V model works out better. The triad model seemed to be stressing everyone out.

Galagirl

 

[Marcus]

"Since I can't have sex, neither can you two." ... "You can fuck, but you cannot make love."

That made me wretch in my mouth a little.
Ah the joys of a good old fashioned traditional polyamorous relationship!

I would let both of them read your post. It is clear and as gentle as I think anyone would need to be. Being explicit will save you some time and heartache.

 

[Marcus]

This morning we had a spontaneous discussion

I hadn't finished the thread.

That's the perfect outcome!! I'm so happy for you. That traditional possessive nonsense is just poison, I'm stoked that you were able to get out from under it.