Unreasonable request?

[Jinglebells3675]

Here's a little bit of background. I will try and keep it brief.

We have a KTP quad set up. I, Jingle (F) and my husband Jam (M) have been together 12 years, swinging for 7 years, poly for 10 months. We are in a closed quad relationship with Pet (M) and Lucky (F) who have been married 25 years. It’s a straight swap situation, i.e., Jingle & Pet, Jam & Lucky. We all get on very well and there are friendships between us all.

It’s been a hugely difficult 10 months. Both experiencing NRE and navigating the world of poly are very new to us. I have had more issues than anyone else in the group, jealousy and a huge sense of loss. I feel like in the last month I have turned a corner with this. It’s becoming the new normal. I am coming out the other side. I am slowly becoming happy to see my husband happy. But it’s taken a lot of self work to get to this point.

The issue currently is that, as husband and wife, we aren’t in a great place. I feel our relationship lacks intimacy, respect, and empathy, and there is absolutely no physical relationship. This is mostly down to the struggles we have experienced up to this point. Prior to this quad relationship, we had an amazingly strong, close, loving, sexual relationship.

I don’t know how to begin to fix things between me and my husband. We both say we want to work on our relationship, but we still have a tendency to focus on our secondaries. This applies to both of us. We spend 2, sometimes 3 nights a week with them and are in constant contact when we are not together. I feel like they are always our focus, and not each other. I feel like I get the scraps of what’s left from my husband and that’s just not enough for me. He is more of the opinion that it’s a phase, we'll have our whole lives together, so let it play out. That doesn’t work for me. I want to be close with him. I want to have sex with him. I really miss him being my person.

I know we can’t go backwards, but I do want to move forward in a positive way. I have suggested taking a break from the quad for a month, so maybe we can tune back into each other and focus on our relationship, without the constant distraction/temptation of our secondaries. He isn’t keen, but would do it if I really wanted to.

Firstly, I am not even sure if this is a reasonable request. I haven’t discussed it with Pet & Lucky yet, but I know Pet would be particularly upset. I don’t really have any other ideas for how I can aid us, as a couple, to get back on track, but I am open to suggestions. We generally argue over the quad situation and not a great deal else.

We do have a couple of times a week that we spend together on our own, so there is some quality time. But I think by taking a break we could focus more on us. Maybe I am grasping at straws...

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

I think it's a reasonable request. However, I think it's most likely to be productive if both parties agree this would be way to see if things can improve. You see, most of the times I've been asked to do something like this, I have genuinely disagreed that it would be helpful for our relationship. Not for me, anyway.

However, there have been times where a partner and I have come to a mutual decision that we need to temporarily focus a lot of our energy on our individual relationship. It feels like that mutual agreement that it will be beneficial to both of us made the decision easy. It didn't feel like such a dilemma. It was productive in the sense that we come out the other side knowing what future we really had.

 

[Jinglebells3675]

I think it's a reasonable request. However, I think it's most likely to be productive if both parties agree this would be way to see if things can improve. You see, most of the times I've been asked to do something like this, I have genuinely disagreed that it would be helpful for our relationship. Not for me, anyway.

However, there have been times where a partner and I have come to a mutual decision that we need to temporarily focus a lot of our energy on our individual relationship. It feels like that mutual agreement that it will be beneficial to both of us made the decision easy. It didn't feel like such a dilemma. It was productive in the sense that we come out the other side knowing what future we really had.

Thank you for your response. I think my husband doesn’t feel it would be helpful for him, as he's never has any issues and he would miss the contact. However, there is a willingness from him to improve our relationship. But he has this blind faith that we will come out in a good place in the end, regardless, and we should just let things flow. I am more pro-active and would like to take steps to ensure that happens.

So we both want the same thing, but have different approaches. He is more comfortable with not seeing them, but staying in contact, and doesn’t see why this should be an issue. I understand where he is coming from, but I personally would like no contact for a short period so we can get back to leaning on each other. It’s so hard getting everything right. We both have great relationships with our secondaries and neither of us want to lose that.

 

[Magdlyn]

We have a KTP quad set up. I, Jingle (F) and my husband Jam (M) ... are in a closed quad relationship with Pet (M) and Lucky (F)... It’s a straight swap situation, i.e., Jingle & Pet, Jam & Lucky...

It’s been a hugely difficult 10 months. Both experiencing NRE and navigating the world of poly are very new to us. I have had more issues than anyone else in the group, with jealousy and a huge sense of loss. I feel like in the last month I have turned a corner with this. It’s becoming the new normal. I am coming out the other side. I am slowly becoming happy to see my husband happy. But it’s taken a lot of self work to get to this point.

The issue currently is that, as husband and wife, we aren’t in a great place. I feel our relationship lacks intimacy, respect, and empathy, and there is absolutely no physical relationship. This is mostly down to the struggles we have experienced up to this point. Prior to this quad relationship, we had an amazingly strong, close, loving, sexual relationship.

I don’t know how to begin to fix things between me and my husband. We both say we want to work on our relationship, but we still have a tendency to focus on our secondaries. We spend 2, sometimes 3 nights a week with them and are in constant contact when we are not together. I feel like they are always our focus, and not each other.

Here is the crux of the matter. You and Jam are both in NRE (especially Jam, it seems) and are focusing far too much on the new and shiny partners, and not on each other. Spending up to 3 nights a week, and being in "constant contact" otherwise is excessive. How on earth can you maintain a healthy marriage without putting any work into it? You said 2 date nights together is not enough for you to feel intimate with Jam.

Some would say, just wait out the NRE and you'll get back to normal. But that's not a guarantee. You could end up with no marriage left if you both are focusing too much on the newer partners. I know part of NRE is the uneasiness about the new r'ship. "Does he like/love me as much as I do him? Is he what he says he is? Do we agree on stuff? Are we long-term compatible?" So you go overboard and get obsessed. And the fresh new sex is extremely compelling.

Also, added to this, you come from swinging. You're used to being couple-centric. "Let's just swap partners!"

A healthy quad depends on both new couples getting along with each other, as well as both established couples getting along. There has to be contentment on all sides. In this case, you and Jam are at odds. You've stopped having sex, suddenly, which is a big red flag. Your r'ship could die from lack of nourishment.

Maybe then you'd end up with just Pet! And that would throw off the balance.

In a quad, you all have to agree on how a break-up would happen. Maybe the quad splits and it goes back to the two original couples. Maybe you end up with a whole new configuration. You and Pet, Pet and Lucky, no more you and Jam. This could throw off Pet and Lucky's dynamic. Maybe then Pet and Lucky would break up. And so on....

Maybe you've all agreed, swinger-style, that if one new couple stops getting along, the other new couple has to break up too, and everyone goes back to square one. It's extremely complicated.

I feel like I get the scraps of what’s left from my husband and that’s just not enough for me. He is more of the opinion that it’s a phase, we'll have our whole lives together, so let it play out. That doesn’t work for me. I want to be close with him. I want to have sex with him. I really miss him being my person.

I know we can’t go backwards, but I do want to move forward in a positive way. I have suggested taking a break from the quad for a month, so maybe we can tune back into each other and focus on our relationship, without the constant distraction/temptation of our secondaries. He isn’t keen, but would do it if I really wanted to.

Firstly, I am not even sure if this is a reasonable request. I haven’t discussed it with Pet & Lucky yet, but I know Pet would be particularly upset. I don’t really have any other ideas for how I can aid us, as a couple, to get back on track, but I am open to suggestions. We generally argue over the quad situation and not a great deal else.

We do have a couple of times a week that we spend together on our own, so there is some quality time. But I think by taking a break we could focus more on us. Maybe I am grasping at straws...

I am not sure if taking a break from the other couple is the only way to go. I do think you are both spending too much time focused on the secondaries. Jam is loving the new thing, he's obsessed. He doesn't even miss your former intimacy and sex!

There could be a middle way, if some people balk at a complete monthlong break, for example, 1 or 2 nights a week with the secondaries, no more. And, importantly, severely limit the time spent texting and phoning the others. Maybe limit that to one hour a day. If you and Jam are supposed to be having couple time, turn phones off!

Since you and Jam are quite new to polyamory, it seems you're both unprepared. You could do more reading about the differences between swinging and poly. A great book that covers this (it covers everything about ENM, based on interviews with real people doing it) is called Opening Up, by Taormino.

We get couples here almost every week who are transitioning from swinging to polyamory, and struggling. You're not alone.

 

[Tinwen]

Any kids onvolved?

Anyway, reading your post, I also think the “in constant contact” part may be abig part of the trouble. Instead of a complete break, try negotiating quality time without phone?

Yet you say you do have couple time? Why doesn’t it do the trick? Is there anissue with it?

Sometimes we tend to focus on what WE need from the partner, but don’t dothe steps ourselves. If that is your case (and I have no reason to think it is or isn’t), what can You do for your husband to have a good time with you?

 

[GalaGirl]

I am sorry you struggle.

I was wondering....

However, there is a willingness from him to improve our relationship. But he has this blind faith that we will come out in a good place in the end, regardless, and we should just let things flow. I am more pro-active and would like to take steps to ensure that happens.

So we both want the same thing, but have different approaches. He is more comfortable with not seeing them, but staying in contact, and doesn’t see why this should be an issue. I understand where he is coming from, but I personally would like no contact for a short period so we can get back to leaning on each other.

Could each of you deal with your secondaries in your own way? Why does it have to be the same? So long as you and Jam make some time to work on the marriage, is there some reason he can't keep in contact with his partner Lucky, while you go low or no contact with your partner Pet?

What would be changing? More date time together? Couple's counseling? Taking a vacation together?

Reducing some of this?

We spend 2, sometimes 3 nights a week with them and are in constant contact when we are not together.

That sounds unsustainable long term, like NRE pink cloud "la-las." On the other side, are you and your husband spending 2-3 nights a week on dates? Are you also in constant contact? Things don't have to be exactly equal, but they do have to feel nourishing.

I don’t know how to begin to fix things between me and my husband. We both say we want to work on our relationship, but we still have a tendency to focus on our secondaries. This applies to both of us. We spend 2, sometimes 3 nights a week with them and are in constant contact when we are not together. I feel like they are always our focus, and not each other. I feel like I get the scraps of what’s left from my husband and that’s just not enough for me. He is more of the opinion that it’s a phase, we'll have our whole lives together, so let it play out. That doesn’t work for me. I want to be close with him. I want to have sex with him. I really miss him being my person.

You could do more poly self-education and think about working with a poly counselor. YMMV, but you could try:

Polyamory-Friendly Professionals Directory

Polyamory-Friendly Professionals Directory

www.polyfriendly.org

To me it sounds like Jam is kind of taking you for granted. "Letting it play out" could be valid, but for HOW LONG? 2 months? A year? There needs to be a timeframe.

Because if you're already experiencing the marriage relationship as "meh," and kind of dying on the vine, and he's taking it for granted that it's always gonna be there, even without tending, he's gonna be surprised if you decide you'd rather not try anymore and want a divorce.

It's like he's so deep in NRE lalas, he's not LISTENING. Is that true?

I feel our relationship lacks intimacy, respect, and empathy, and there is absolutely no physical relationship.

What will be done about these things? Are you dealing with poly hell stuff?

What behaviors has he been doing/not doing that you would like to see change? Could you list them?

Galagirl

 

[Albert Ross]

It seems like Jam is kind of taking you for granted. "Letting it play out" can be valid. But for HOW LONG? 2 months? A year? There needs to be a timeframe.

Because if you're already experiencing the marriage relationship as "meh," and kind of dying on the vine, and he's taking it for granted that it's always gonna be there, even without tending, he's gonna be surprised if you decide you'd rather not try any more and want a divorce.

Yeah, this part in particular strikes me as awfully naive. (Or, perhaps more likely, he's enjoying his other relationship so much he doesn't care to be bothered with problems in this one.)

 

[kdt26417]

Hi Jingle,

I actually think taking a break from the quad for a month is a good idea; I would even say make it a regular occurence, something you do say once or twice every year. You're obviously very focused on the quad when they're in the picture, so you need some breaks where they're not in the picture. Hopefully they wouldn't be overly hurt if you asked that of them. Or even if not a complete break for a month, a partial break where you and the other couple see each other less often, and don't call/text each other so much. Some kind of compromise that you could all live with.

I hope you can work something out.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[Jinglebells3675]

How on earth can you maintain a healthy marriage without putting any work into it? You said 2 date nights together is not enough for you to feel intimate with Jam.

It isn’t always date nights. We get a couple mornings a week together where we generally do something. We went golfing last week. But I do feel that intimacy is lacking.

Maybe you've all agreed, swinger-style, that if one new couple stops getting along, the other new couple has to break up too, and everyone goes back to square one. It's extremely complicated.

No swinger-style arrangements. Even as swingers we were autonomous. We are both in charge of our own relationships. But there remains a hierarchy.

He doesn't even miss your former intimacy and sex!

This is one of the things that hurts the most, from my point of view. We were arguing last week and he told me he didn’t want to have sex with me. This has cut deeply. Physical intimacy has always been really important to me. I hope it’s temporary, but I would be lying if I said I wasn’t scared about what that means for us as a couple.

Thank you for taking the time to reply. There is a lot to navigate. I feel we know the theory of poly, but living the reality is taking some serious adjustment. It’s a huge learning curve and I would really like to come out the other side with a solid relationship with my husband.

 

[Jinglebells3675]

Any kids onvolved?

Anyway, reading your post, I also think the “in constant contact” part may be abig part of the trouble. Instead of a complete break, try negotiating quality time without phone?

Yet you say you do have couple time? Why doesn’t it do the trick? Is there anissue with it?

Sometimes we tend to focus on what WE need from the partner, but don’t dothe steps ourselves. If that is your case (and I have no reason to think it is or isn’t), what can You do for your husband to have a good time with you?

Yes, there are children involved on both sides.

The phone/texting bothers me. Jan is very chill about it all. I feel he edits his behaviour to ensure he can message. This frustrates me, as I feel it’s a constant distraction. For example, we went to dinner last night and he insisted he go to wash his hands, not unreasonable, but out of character and I know it was so he could message. Should this annoy me or should I just let it go? It was supposed to be our time.

You have a very valid point. I have a tendency to get frustrated with him, generally over the messaging. I know I need to do less of this and I am working on it. That definitely impacts on our time.

 

[Jinglebells3675]

Could each of you deal with your secondaries in your own way? Why does it have to be the same?

Yes, absolutely. However, it’s me that gets frustrated with the constant intrusion and I feel Jam is reluctant to address this. We have very few rules or boundaries, mainly because we did to start off with, and they were broken. The bedroom is a phone-free zone, but other than that, we can both do as we please.

What would be changing? More date time together? Couple's counseling? Taking a vacation together?

I honest don’t know. Some protected time would be nice, when it’s just about us. Couple's counselling is actually pretty hard to access in the UK, and poly-friendly is almost unheard of. I found one, but at £4500 for 10 sessions, it’s out of financial reach. We are taking a vacation next week as a family with our 7 year old. Hoping that will be a positive thing.

Are you also in constant contact?

Far less so. I say good morning and good night, with a few messages in between. Not constant in the same way.

What behaviors has he been doing/not doing that you would like to see change? Could you list them?

We have both been in NRE but I feel I am kinda out the other side and Jam not so much. We are relatively well educated on poly, but putting it all into practice has been a challenge. The constant contact is a bone of contention for me. I find it intrusive, like he is always looking for an escape so he can message. It feels sneaky. Other than that, I don’t have many complaints. I would like more physical intimacy and emotional closeness.

We got in an argument last weekend. We were visiting our secondaries, and we were supposed to be going home on Sunday evening, but he kept pushing, as he wanted to stay. I wanted us to go home together as planned. I said something to the effect of “OK, we will stay, as you clearly don’t want to go home with me.” Not my cleverest move, but it just came out. Then he was upset with me, really upset because I was emotionally blackmailing him. From my point of view, I shouldn’t have said it how I did, but I was frustrated he was going back on what we had agreed.

Thank you for taking time out to reply. Who needs counselling when these forums are full of fabulous people?

 

[Tinwen]

Yes, there are children involved on both sides.

This makes the situation so much more complicated.

The phone/texting bothers me. Jan is very chill about it all. I feel he edits his behaviour to ensure he can message. This frustrates me, as I feel it’s a constant distraction. For example, we went to dinner last night and he insisted he go to wash his hands, not unreasonable, but out of character, and I know it was so he could message. Should this annoy me or should I just let it go? It was supposed to be our time.

You can tell him that you know, but I’d exercise understanding and lenience on this one. The point isn’t to police each other on keeping the rules. The point is to meet the needs of both people.

NRE, with its intrusive thoughts, is distracting on its own, and you won’t get rid of this addiction in one evening. If he goes to the bathroom to read one message, instead of constantly thinking, “Did she reply?” maybe he’ll be more focused with you for another hour or two. Both peoples’ needs are met better.

 

[Jinglebells3675]

This makes the situation so much more complicated

It does, in the sense of wanting to maintain stable relationships. It’s open and the children are aware of the set up. It’s pretty normal to them now.

Thank you for putting a slightly different spin on it. I hadn’t really looked at it that way.

 

[Jinglebells3675]

Hi Jingle,

I actually think taking a break from the quad for a month is a good idea; I would even say make it a regular occurence, something you do say once or twice every year. You're obviously very focused on the quad when they're in the picture, so you need some breaks where they're not in the picture. Hopefully they wouldn't be overly hurt if you asked that of them. Or even if not a complete break for a month, a partial break where you and the other couple see each other less often, and don't call/text each other so much. Some kind of compromise that you could all live with.

I hope you can work something out.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.

I told Pet I was considering this and he has taken it rather personally. He feels it shows a lack of commitment, whereas I would argue it’s the exact opposite. He is less than keen on the idea. It’s so hard meeting everyone’s needs and getting things right.

 

[Magdlyn]

I am horrified that counseling in the UK is 4500 pounds out of pocket! Holy shit. That's insane. So, forums, books, websites, podcasts andYouTubes are where it's at, it seems.

Besides reading books such as Opening Up, you could look into the Non-Violent Communication skills books. In the specific case of Jam's overuse of his phone while he's supposed to be on a date with you, I'd approach it ahead of time like this.

Give information, share your feelings. State what you'd like to have happen. Keep it short and sweet, with as few words as possible. Don't lecture or harangue.

Example:

You: (Information) I've noticed you seem to want to check your phone for messages from Lucky while we are on a date. (Feelings) I feel bad/neglected/upset/unimportant when you do this. (Suggestion) Would you be willing to check your messages before our date and then let Lucky know you'll be out of contact for [X time], until our date is over? I'd really appreciate that.

If he starts defending himself in between these statements, bring it back to the topic.

Information: Is this correct? You check your phone for her messages when we're on a date?

Feelings: Would you repeat back what I've just said so I can feel heard?

Suggestion: Does that seem reasonable to you?

The important thing is to use "I statements," not "You statements." A "you statement" can seem accusatory and can lead to them becoming defensive, or even lying, to "get out of it."

Example:

"You always do XYZ when we're on a date. Why do you do that? Don't you see it hurts me? Would you want me to do that to you??"

 

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[GalaGirl]

Thank you for more info.

Let me repeat back what I understand in my own words. You correct me if I get it wrong, ok?

• You are frustrated with the constant intrusion of Jam's texting.
• You prefer he not text Lucky when out on an actual date with you.
• During free time in the shared home, you prefer he not text Lucky near you, but go to another room. (??)
• You both agree the parents' bedroom is a phone-free zone. Neither one of you uses devices in there.
• You miss sharing physical intimacy (sex, physical affection like hugs and kisses, etc.)
  • At this time he doesn't want to share sex with you.
  • You are worried about that long term because you don't want to be in a sexless marriage.
• You miss sharing emotional closeness.
• You want some "protected time." (Protected from what? Or did you mean "dedicated" time?)

Is that true?

However, it’s me that gets frustrated with the constant intrusion and I feel Jam is reluctant to address this. We have very few rules or boundaries, mainly because we did to start off with, and they were broken. The bedroom is a phone-free zone, but other than that, we can both do as we please.

It might sound nitpicky, but no, you do not "feel" that. You either "think" that Jam is reluctant to address this, or you are actually "experiencing" and "observing" that behavior. You have tried to talk to Jam about it but he's avoiding it. Could leave "feel" for actual emotions. And not use it interchangeably with "think" in an effort to be clear/improve communication.

I second the the suggestion to read NVC books. There are many, but I like Living Nonviolent Communication: Practical Tools to Connect and Communicate Skillfully in Every Situation.

You say "rules" and "boundaries" when I would say "shared agreements." Were they realistic and reasonable agreements? Why were they broken? And just because they were broken, does that mean all agreements go out the window, rather than learning how to make better/keepable agreements?

Your personal boundaries are for you only, not other people. YOU make and enforce them to help keep you safe. They define what you will and will not do, what you will and will not put up with. Other people don't have to like them. You do.

We got in an argument last weekend. We were visiting our secondaries, and we were supposed to be going home on Sunday evening, but he kept pushing, as he wanted to stay. I wanted us to go home together as planned. I said something to the effect of “OK, we will stay, as you clearly don’t want to go home with me.” Not my cleverest move, but it just came out. Then he was upset with me, really upset because I was emotionally blackmailing him. From my point of view, I shouldn’t have said it how I did, but I was frustrated he was going back on what we had agreed.

Would life be easier on you if you accept he's in NRE, and until he's "out the other side," you just won't totally believe him when making plans, you'll make a Plan B option too?

If Jam wants to stay late, you say, "All right. Let's go to Plan B. I'm going home at the planned time. I will take the car. You'll manage your own ride back." Or whatever you two decided Plan B would be.

What's he gonna do, be mad you don't want to stay there longer with him? You don't have to stay longer. You two don't have to be joined at the hip.

And then you just live your life that day as planned. Either Plan A or Plan B happened. Either way works for you. No surprises. I wonder if you crave some stable consistency. Maybe Jam would make agreements and then not keep them in the past. So now it's like there are practically no agreements.

So then little things like "leave together as planned" have become even MORE important to you. Rather than more casual, "Ok, see ya later" type? Is some of that going on?

I don't get why you all have to being doing "quad" stuff together so much, with you getting "stuck" there, because you are done with the visit sooner than Jam is. How about mixing it up?

• You and Jam haves dates.
• You and Pet have dates.
• Jam and Lucky have dates.
• Once in a great while, you all hang out in a quad, and preferably take separate cars/transportation.

I told Pet I was considering this and he has taken it rather personally. He feels it shows a lack of commitment, whereas I would argue it’s the exact opposite. He is less than keen on the idea. It’s so hard meeting everyone’s needs and getting things right.

Pet can feel disappointed that you need to change your schedule around. But if he's taking it personally, that's on him.

But the way you framed it may have been provoking. Even though there is a hierarchy model here how you talk matters. He might feel "put on the shelf" and devalued if you do this every time there's a problem with Jam. "Secondary" doesn't mean "no value." Are you able to see how you communicate with both your partners might need improving?

I guess you could think about it for future reference. Why did Pet have to know the (you + Jam) side is having difficulties and you want to make some time to work on the marriage with Jam? I think you could have changed your schedule with Pet without making any announcements, and not leaked stuff from the (you + Jam) side of things on to the (you + Pet) side.

Or, if you were going to tell Pet anything, you could have told him you might need to change the schedule some because of end-of-year holiday pacing/holiday rest. Make it a habit to mix it up every quarter. Normalize it. People need regular dates, but it is ok to mix it up too.

You can't meet everyone's wants or needs 100%, but you could put YOUR needs first. You sound like you need a break from quad stuff all the time. You're coming out of the NRE thing and want something more sustainable, and need more REST. Is that true?

Thank you for taking time out to reply. Who needs counselling when these forums are full of fabulous people?

All people could use counseling, although I can appreciate that the cost of counseling where you are is expensive.

This is happening in a poly-quad context, but a spouse taking a marriage for granted is pretty common. Perhaps you can find a marriage counselor willing to work with both of you, or just you, that is more affordable.

Look into online options. Maybe Recovery International could help you.

Galagirl

 

[Bobbi]

There could be a middle way, if some people balk at a complete monthlong break, for example, 1 or 2 nights a week with the secondaries, no more. And, importantly, severely limit the time spent texting and phoning the others. Maybe limit that to one hour a day. If you and Jam are supposed to be having couple time, turn phones off!

This! I would still see each other but 1 or 2 times per week and I’d limit extra contact to no more than once per day. Even that isn’t needed. You need to focus on your relationship without all of the distractions but still make time to see other partners.