What did I do wrong? Or did I?

I spent a good part of the day with Roy and his wife today. And most of the day we talked about me and Ray. I have known Roy and his wife for the last 28 years or so. They have been great friends to me, and they have goen through a lot with me.

When I brought up this forum and what I had posted and what had been going on with me and Ray, Roy and his wife told me they were there for me, like they have always been. Roy's wife asked me what Ray had been doing that was so bad. I told her that I just felt unloved and not listened to, and that Ray always saw me as a bad guy.

Roy's wife told me that she had observed me and Ray when we have been at their house together, and she added that I treated Ray and Roy very differently. Roy's wife told me that when I am with her husband that I am usually submissive around him, and allow him to be the man that he is. When I am around Ray I am usually dominant and treat him like a child. Roys' wife asked me why I treated Roy one way and Ray another. I didn't have a quick answer.

Roy chirped in saying that I act with Ray the way I have with no one else they have known. Roy brought up my second husband, who sexually abused my daughter. Roy made mention that even with my second husband I was never mean. I was fearful, but never mean to him.

Roy's wife brought up my first husband, who left me when I was 6 months pregnant to marry an ex-hooker that he had fallen in love with. Roy's wife asked me if I remembered ever being mean with him. I shook my head. Both Roy and his wife asked me what it was about Ray that brought out that side of me.

Roy brought up just the last week or so. Roy asked if I remembered telling him about Ray turning around and not going to the bank because he didn't want to be wrong, and that I had blown up at Ray for that. I told Roy that I remembered. Roy then asked meif I had talked with Ray about that day since. I told him that I had, this morning. Roy asked me what happened this morning.

I told Roy and his wife that I asked Ray why he had to be so secretive all the time. Why when I asked him where he was going, that Ray couldn't give me a straight answer. I told Roy and his wife that Ray answered saying that he didn't want to be wrong and in trying not to be wrong was wrong. I responded to Ray saying that I wanted him to be more open, more trusting in my love and knowing that it is okay to be wrong.

I told Roy and his wife that I want Ray to feel secure in my love, and to not be so secretive. I want Ray to know that it is okay to make mistakes. Roy smiled and told me, that seems to be a big fear for Ray. And I agreed. Roy's wife asked my I thought that might be Ray's biggest fear. I told her that Ray is just that way. Roy's wife retorted, and so are you.

Roy's wife said to me that since I had been sleeping with her husband for some time, that she felt she had the right to say some things. I agreed. Roy's wife told me that I should fear losing Ray because some things I do, if she did that with Roy, would make him want to leave her. Roy agreed.

Roy asked me what Ray's best quality was. I told Roy that Ray's best quality was his ability to love unconditionally. Roy's wife asked me what I felt was Roy's best quality. I told her that I felt that Roy's best quality was that he had a gentle spirit, and that his and her friendship meant the world to me.

Roy's wife asked me if I had the chance to trade Ray for Roy, would I do it. I told her no. She then asked me why. I wasn't sure where she was going with that question. I told Roy's wife that I loved Ray. Roy's wife asked me if I loved Roy, and I said that I did. Roy's wife asked me to try again. I told her that I see Ray as a good man, a wonderful provider, someone I want to have as a better friend, as well as a lover.

Roy's wife asked me what I wanted from my relationship with Tom. I was a bit confused. Roy's wife asked me the same question again. I told Roy's wife that Tom has been a great friend, he has helped us out in a pinch, several times, I want us to become closer friends as well as lovers. Roy almost laughed. Roy's wife asked again, "If you had a chance to trade Ray and get another man, would you? If so, why? If not, why not?

I asked Roy's wife where she was going with this. She told me that she wanted to know what made Ray worth keeping, or staying with. I told Roy's wife that Ray means the world to me. I told Roy's wife that Ray has the ability to make me feel like a littel girl and get me to giggle like a littel girl. Roy's wife asked me if other men had that ability, too. Possibly even Roy. I admitted that Roy and Tom and Scott all had that ability.

Roy's wife brought up Antonio. She asked me what made me so happy when Antonio lived with us. I told Roy's wife that Antonio was a man's man. He was a take charge kind of guy. He had the ability to make me happy even at my saddest times. Roy's wife asked me if Ray had that ability, too. I told Roy's wife that at one time I had thought that he did. And I wanted to believe that he still did.

Roy's wife asked me if I remembered the first time that me and Roy made love. I told her that I did. Roy's wife asked me to tell her about it. I told her that it was fun. We played. We laughed. We loved. Then Roy's wife asked me if I remembered the first time that I made love with Ray. I said that I did remember. She asked for details. I told Roy's wife that, "Ray and I had tried every position and none of them worked very well. Ray apologized. Ray and I talked about my sexual past. . . "

Roy's wife asked me if there was anything positive that I remembered about the first time that Ray and I made love. I told Roy's wife that I remembered looking into Ray's eyes and seeing Jesus. And that freaked me out.

Roy's wife then asked me if I remembered the first time that my second husband and I had made love. I told her that I did. I told her that me and my second husband had been on a date and had driven up to lover's lookout and that he had kissed me passionately, petted me, kissed my neck, felt me up and made love to me for over an hour. I told Roy's wife that my second husband, before everything went down, was an incredible man.

It was then that I realized that I had a better memory of a man who I had put in prison for life, than I did of Ray. Roy's wife then asked me to tell her about my second wedding, my wedding with my second husband. I told her that she was there, but she asked me to recount for her. So, I did. I told her that it was a beautiful wedding, my dress was gorgious, my husband-to-be was dressed to the nines. The cake was perfect. The day was perfect, and I was in love.

Roy's wife then asked me to recount my wedding with Ray. I told her that the cake was a disaster. No one helped us with anything. We had to do all the decorations ourselves, make all the arrangements. The food was either cold or uncooked, and we paid for everything. Roy's wife added, "So, you and Ray have been through a lot together." I agreed. Roy's wife then added, "And Roy made love to you before the wedding." I agreed again. Roy's wife asked me why I didn't recount that part. And I didn't know.

Roy asked me if I remembered the last time that Ray did something that made me happy. I told Roy about when Ray had gotten me to orgasm. Roy then asked me when the last time was that Ray had made me happy, and not by being sexual. I had to think about that. And that made me realize where my mind had been, too.

Roy and his wife both told me that they hoped that I would be able to see Ray as well as I have other men in my life. I agreed. Roy's wife told me that she thought that I enjoyed sex with Roy more than she often did. I just looked at her. She then added, but we love each other, really love each other, and that is what is important.

As I was leaving Roy and his wife's house, I got a text. I didn't look at it until I was a good ways away from Roy's house. When I did see who the text was from, it was from Antonio. The text read, "Just thinking about you and I wanted you to know." After reading Antonio's text, I remembered my text this morning to Ray, "We really need to work on our problems. And there are a lot of them." I pulled over and cried.

I haven't texted Antonio back yet, and I am not sure what to say when I do. I know I want to tell him that I still love him, and that I think about him a lot. Right now, though, I have to do some real thinking about me, Ray, and why I am the way I am, and why I do what I do.
 
I've been lurking reading this and your Blog and I wouldn't comment on your blog but I will on this thread only because it's making me very uncomfortable reading it.

To of the forum, your opinion is highly regarded, but I feel that if the characters in this story were reversed and we had a man speaking of his wife in the derogatory way that Debbie is speaking of Ray, the level of outrage would be volcanic. It is borderline abusive and highly disrespectful. Say for example, a husband was on here talking about how small his wife's breasts were and how he thought they made her less of a woman and how he got off on telling her that and making her feel completely inadequate, we would all be offended on her behalf. Even if she got off on the cuckhold thing, it's still unsettling to read. Why the gender double standard?

It's not a surprise that the list of issues is racking up as you write.

I don't mean this to be a personal attack on you, but this situation and your descriptions is very unsettling and I'm very surprised nobody else has expressed similar distaste. If you're such an avid cock worshipper, you would appreciate there is a heart and soul attached to that cock and speaking of him like this certainly isn't helping your cause.

What anyone says about their partner is their business. If a woman compaj about her husband's baby dick ot a man has issues with his wife being flat, so what? Its all about personal preference. people should be able to post what they want on their blog without worry of ridicule.
 
What anyone says about their partner is their business. If a woman compaj about her husband's baby dick ot a man has issues with his wife being flat, so what? Its all about personal preference. people should be able to post what they want on their blog without worry of ridicule.

Is that right? Considering that several people have now accused the OP of being abusive towards her husband? Considering that the OP herself has admitted to it? When someone posts on a public forum looking for feedback , is it the expectation that we all tape our mouths shut and refrain from voicing what is obviously very unsettling for many to read? If so, why bother posting if other members have to censor their feedback for fear of hurting someone's feelings? Isn't a question posed on a forum in actuality a request for opinions?

Calling out hurtful , (and yes abusive) behaviour is far from ridicule. Is that the attitude we should all embrace as a society, turn a blind eye for fear of hurting an offender? That's sad.

As Dingedheart said, as a long time contributing member to this forum, there have been many, many instances of violent man bashing by other members on here for saying far less hurtful things about his partner and the comparison to other partners.

And this isn't just a comparison of dick size. There have been many , many statements made in every thread by the OP that have been very unsettling. Read it all, I'm not the only one who has voiced concern over that.

I'll be watching for your reply to those same people the next time a guy says his wife was too fat to make love to and told her as such as he fucked his skinny new girlfriend and denied his wife , who then gets "ridiculed" by the other members for being a heartless SOB . Yes, that stuff happens on here. Stay tuned.

The title of the thread was "What did I do wrong?" So she's being told what she did wrong. If you don't like to hear the answers to the question, don't ask the question.
 
Last edited:
Is that right? Considering that several people have now accused the OP of being abusive towards her husband? Considering that the OP herself has admitted to it? When someone posts on a public forum looking for feedback , is it the expectation that we all tape our mouths shut and refrain from voicing what is obviously very unsettling for many to read and voice our opinions? If so, why bother posting if other members have to censor their feedback for fear of hurting someone's feelings?

Calling out hurtful , (and yes abusive) behaviour is far from ridicule. Is that the attitude we should all embrace as a society, turn a blind eye for fear of hurting an offender? That's sad.

As Dingedheart said, as a long time contributing member to this forum, there have been many, many instances of violent man bashing by other members on here for saying far less hurtful things about his partner and the comparison to other partners.

I'll be watching for your reply to those same people the next time a guy says his wife was too fat to make love to and told her as such as he fucked his skinny new girlfriend and denied his wife who then gets "ridiculed" by the other members for being a heartless SOB . Yes, that stuff happens on here. Stay tuned.

The title of the thread was "What did I do wrong?" So she's being told what she did wrong. If you don't like to hear the answers to the question, don't ask the question.

I never said I was ok with someone openly putting down their spouse to their face. I was addressing venting in private about something in a blog. You don't get to ridicule someones blog, you don't get to fish information from someone blog and post about it in an off topic way on another thread. I must have missed the post where she said she refuses to have aex with him because of his small dick. But don't worry about stalking my posts, that's sad
 
I never said I was ok with someone openly putting down their spouse to their face. I was addressing venting in private about something in a blog. You don't get to ridicule someones blog, you don't get to fish information from someone blog and post about it in an off topic way on another thread. I must have missed the post where she said she refuses to have aex with him because of his small dick. But don't worry about stalking my posts, that's sad

This thread isn't a blog. Note the question in the title, posted in Poly Relationships Corner.

Literal much? Read it again. What I said was "the next time a guy says his wife was too fat to make love to and told her as such as he fucked his skinny new girlfriend and denied his wife , who then gets "ridiculed" by the other members for being a heartless SOB ." A NEW POST, NOT THE OP.

I'm not stalking your posts, I really couldn't care less about anything you have to say. My point is that the next time a man gets jumped on for calling his wife boring or fat, and it will happen, it will be interesting to see if you rise to his defence as being ridiculed as well , and say that anyone is entitled to their opinion, as I am entitled to mine.

This isn't your thread, I didn't ask you, so let's agree to disagree and move on.
 
Last edited:
Debbie, I'm glad Roy and his wife had that conversation with you.

Reading what you've said about your first two husbands (and God...I am SO sorry about what happened with your second husband, and I hope your daughter has gotten therapy to deal with that--and that you have too), I have a thought. Feel free to tell me I'm an idiot...

Your first husband abandoned you at one of the most difficult times a woman can go through (pregnancy). Your second husband appeared good and trustworthy but then betrayed your and your daughter's trust in the worst way imaginable.

I wonder if some of the inappropriate behavior you direct toward Ray is because he's your *husband*. The other men, the ones you praise and talk about in glowing terms on here, are your friends and sexual partners, but you aren't married to them. You don't have a life with any of them; you don't share a household with any of them. You enjoy the time with them because you can walk away at the end of it. Even with Antonio, although he lived with you, your connection to him was easily severed if it needed to be because you and he weren't married.

You're married to Ray, and the two men you've been married to previously completely demolished your trust and self-esteem. Is it possible that because of that, you're--maybe without even realizing it--seeing Ray in the same light as your previous husbands? Is it possible that calling him "husband" triggers a part of you that can't trust and can't respect, because that part believes he's going to screw you over the way they did?

Like I said, I may be way off base, but I know how much Hubby paid for becoming my husband after what my first husband did to me; it took me time and a lot of counseling to be able to separate the "husband" and "marriage" things from the abuse I went through in my first marriage. When Hubby and I were dating, and even after we moved in together, it wasn't so bad... but the moment that ring was on my finger and the paperwork was filed, part of my mind fell right back into the patterns and rhythms--and fear--from my first marriage. Even though Hubby is NOTHING like my first husband.
 
You're married to Ray, and the two men you've been married to previously completely demolished your trust and self-esteem. Is it possible that because of that, you're--maybe without even realizing it--seeing Ray in the same light as your previous husbands? Is it possible that calling him "husband" triggers a part of you that can't trust and can't respect, because that part believes he's going to screw you over the way they did?


You are not off base with this.I am constantly waiting for the other shoe to drop. Everyday I am waiting for something to come up that I didn't know, or that Ray has hidden from me. When Ray works late, I do call him at times to make sure he is at work. It isn't really Ray. I don't trust men in general.

Men I have loved and trusted have hurt me, badly. I have always said to Ray that since he is my third husband that it is either going to be third times a charm, or third strike you're out. I often find myself saying that Ray is too good to be true.

When I talk about my first husband, I rationalize his actions because he found out that he had a two pound tumor in his head after he left me. When I talk about my second husband, I talk about how good looking he was and how happy he made me, until I found out who he really was. Ray is a perfect gentleman. Ray loves me, unconditionally. Ray does not see my faults, or bring them up to me or anyone else. Ray is like no other man I have ever met.

I have told myself time and again that Ray can't be real. What man will marry, or date a woman, trust her completely, love her unconditionally, provide for her, very well, allow her to play with others, never judges or says anything demeaning or judgmental, Asks for nothing or very little and who has a real grasp on the joy of giving?

Ray has never raised his voice with me. Ray will not argue with me. Ray puts me first, in every thing. I am 5'3" tall. I weigh 210. I have 44DDD breasts, and Ray says I am beautiful. Ray massages me most every night. Ray allows me the freedom to what ever I want, with whom ever I want, and he never questions me.

Ray allows me to have lovers and BFs, and even live-in lovers. Ray's happiness is decided by how happy I am. Ray doesn't look at other women. He rarely brings up his sexual past. Any thing I want, Ray makes sure I have.

Ray can be a child at times. Okay, a lot of times, but it is in an innocent way. Often Ray doesn't know when he has done something wrong, and he is always willing to try to do better. I know that Ray is a very special man, and that I am lucky to be able to call him my husband, but I am always wondering when this dream is going to end.

When I was at Roy's house yesterday talking with Roy and his wife, they helped me realize a lot of things. I know that Ray is the best thing that has ever happened to me. I also know that I have told him that he is the worst thing to ever happen to me. Ray is too often too perfect. And that scares me.
 
Kevin said:
Another thing that has been growing in my mind for awhile, is that I suspect Ray has some BDSM in him; specifically, a submissive personality. In some ways, I think he wants to be Dominated. He probably sees you as his Domme. Or not ... I could be out in left field here. But if my "theory" is at least somewhat correct, it could explain some things. Such as why you feel like you have to babysit him and tell him every little thing to do. That may actually be a source of comfort to him, and who's to say whether that's dysfunctional or just a good old healthy D/s tendency? Where does one draw the line?

Kevin, cucks are subs by definition. Ray is bi and seems to be gender variant as well.

This is not a healthy D/s dynamic, as I see it, because the humiliation Debbie subjects Ray to does not seem to be an agreed upon consensual arrangement. Or we wouldn't have the silent treatment, when she hurts him. Nor would Debbie be wanting Ray to be "more like her (masculine) boyfriend." She would accept Ray's submissive, bi, femme personality and enjoy it for what it is. The humiliation would just be part of the agreed upon game, and not truly hurtful, as it seems to be.

That said, no one can demand sex from anyone in a healthy adult r'ship, no matter how D/s. No one owes sex to anyone. People with high libidos need to understand they can't force their less sexual partners to have sex. If they do, that is rape, by definition.
 
Last edited:
You are not off base with this.I am constantly waiting for the other shoe to drop. Everyday I am waiting for something to come up that I didn't know, or that Ray has hidden from me. When Ray works late, I do call him at times to make sure he is at work. It isn't really Ray. I don't trust men in general.

Men I have loved and trusted have hurt me, badly. I have always said to Ray that since he is my third husband that it is either going to be third times a charm, or third strike you're out. I often find myself saying that Ray is too good to be true.

When I talk about my first husband, I rationalize his actions because he found out that he had a two pound tumor in his head after he left me. When I talk about my second husband, I talk about how good looking he was and how happy he made me, until I found out who he really was. Ray is a perfect gentleman. Ray loves me, unconditionally. Ray does not see my faults, or bring them up to me or anyone else. Ray is like no other man I have ever met.

I have told myself time and again that Ray can't be real. What man will marry, or date a woman, trust her completely, love her unconditionally, provide for her, very well, allow her to play with others, never judges or says anything demeaning or judgmental, Asks for nothing or very little and who has a real grasp on the joy of giving?

Ray has never raised his voice with me. Ray will not argue with me. Ray puts me first, in every thing. I am 5'3" tall. I weigh 210. I have 44DDD breasts, and Ray says I am beautiful. Ray massages me most every night. Ray allows me the freedom to what ever I want, with whom ever I want, and he never questions me.

Ray allows me to have lovers and BFs, and even live-in lovers. Ray's happiness is decided by how happy I am. Ray doesn't look at other women. He rarely brings up his sexual past. Any thing I want, Ray makes sure I have.

Ray can be a child at times. Okay, a lot of times, but it is in an innocent way. Often Ray doesn't know when he has done something wrong, and he is always willing to try to do better. I know that Ray is a very special man, and that I am lucky to be able to call him my husband, but I am always wondering when this dream is going to end.

When I was at Roy's house yesterday talking with Roy and his wife, they helped me realize a lot of things. I know that Ray is the best thing that has ever happened to me. I also know that I have told him that he is the worst thing to ever happen to me. Ray is too often too perfect. And that scares me.

I strongly, VERY strongly, urge you to discuss this with your therapist. I know exactly what you're saying. I felt the same way with Hubby. Too good to be true, too perfect, when is he going to fuck me over? It's taken me therapy and a few years to stop walking on eggshells and bracing for the worst.

If you're always sitting on the edge of your seat, figuratively speaking, waiting for Ray to show that he's just like the men who've hurt you, you are never going to be able to fully accept him or your marriage, and you are going to have a difficult, if not impossible, time breaking the cycle of inappropriate/abusive behavior that you've developed with him.

I don't know if Ray knows your history; if you aren't comfortable talking about this with him or in front of him, ask Margaret if you can have an individual session with her or if she can refer you to a therapist you can see one-on-one. But please, and know that this is coming from someone who has been where you are, PLEASE talk to a professional about this, because until you are able to work through those trust issues and open yourself to accepting that you deserve good things and good people, you aren't going to be able to repair your relationship with Ray.
 
Re (from DebbieandRay):
"I want Ray to know that it is okay to make mistakes."

Ah, but in order for that to happen, Ray has to be able to depend on you being loving towards him (and saying only loving things) when he makes mistakes.

Re (from newtoday):
"Isn't a question posed on a forum in actuality a request for opinions?"

Yes -- provided the board it's posed on isn't the blog board. And, as of this moment at least, this thread is not located on the blog board, it is located on the relationships board.

Although, I do believe that no matter what board it is, one should show a little restraint in how one expresses one's opinions. Think of it this way, even if you are speaking to a Nazi or an ax murderer, you're still limited in what you can do (to change their thoughts and behavior) to what you can post on the forum. And if you just blast away at them, they're only going to stop visiting the forum. So then you haven't accomplished anything. In order to communicate productively, you have to seek to use persuasion instead of excoriation. And productive communication is the only useful tool you have on an internet forum.

Is Debbie acting abusive? Possibly. I don't believe I know enough about the situation yet to make that call. As I said in the one earlier post, I've been thinking that Ray might be a D/s submissive type and as such, he may actually (to some extent) like being humiliated and ordered around. To me the dynamic between Debbie and Ray seems complex. I believe Debbie would get better results if she'd take it down a notch or three, especially if she wants Ray to be more confident and assertive. But where one draws the line between (unhealthy) Domination and (outright) abuse can be tricky to tell sometimes.

Does the criticism ever get harsher on Polyamory.com than it has on this thread? Absolutely. I was there (at ground zero) during an instance where it got bad enough for someone to get banned. Polyamory.com is a big website with a lot of members, and many of those members don't pull punches when they've got something to say. But those members will have to speak for themselves, and explain why they're not here letting Debbie have it. I'm not part of that crowd; I do pull punches.

Re (from Inyourendo):
"You don't get to ridicule someone's blog, you don't get to fish information from someone's blog and post about it in an off-topic way on another thread."

That's probably true. I think if I take issue with something someone says in their blog and I want to call them out, this site's guidelines limit what I can do to starting a new thread of my own (not on the blog board), and addressing the issue without mentioning the name (or username) of the person I'm upset with.
 
Although, I do believe that no matter what board it is, one should show a little restraint in how one expresses one's opinions. Think of it this way, even if you are speaking to a Nazi or an ax murderer, you're still limited in what you can do (to change their thoughts and behavior) to what you can post on the forum. And if you just blast away at them, they're only going to stop visiting the forum. So then you haven't accomplished anything. In order to communicate productively, you have to seek to use persuasion instead of excoriation. And productive communication is the only useful tool you have on an internet forum.

Funny, I've seen a few members who don't exactly use restraint; but perhaps it's okay for some to speak exactly as they please, but not for others? Is there a guide anywhere on the forum so we know who is allowed to excoriate and insult, and who is expected to speak gently and courteously even to Nazis and ax murderers? ;)
 
Let's call this in defense of Debbie

Life is not fair. We get dealt the cards and it is up to us to play the hand the way we choose.

Addendum: since life keeps dealing cards, best to try some different ways if playing what look like crappy hands.

Debbie abusive? Sure. Inappropriate? Not at all.

Ray chose her. If anything, I am hearing Ray speaking through Debbie that she is not abusive enough (ok loaded words but wtf)

I find myself hoping they have a very enlightened therapist, with experience in bi-poly-Bdsm and a few other things. Because to me it sounds like Ray wants to be taken in hand a bit and Debbie is reluctant to jump in and do this, in an up front and consistent manner.

Roy Dom and Ray sub Debbie confused because she wants to be unconditionally loved (something lacking in her childhood) loves man's men Roy-Antonio and loves Ray's service but irked when he seems to falls short in the manliness department. What a soup we have here! Lots of spice, contrasts and complete opposites all vying to be top dog.

Debbie and Ray how about a bit of practice in communication.

Both sit down and pick the topic. Pads and pens with a timer. One starts and talks for two to three minutes. Other can make notes, but only listen.
Two, gets to restate what they heard One say. One to two minutes.
One gets to clarify what they were saying that seemed off the mark in Two's ears. Two restates again.

Then Two states their POV two to three minutes and one restates, ect.

Do this for thirty minutes, then go take a walk together for fifteen minutes, no talking, just thinking about what got said.

Come back and do another thirty minutes.

Take another walk

Come back and each gets to write down ten things they like about the other person and ten things they don't like.
Then ten things they like about themselves and ten things they don't like. (Rule: only get ten, so feel free to discard those of lesser importance) you get better over time and I get the impression you are in this for the long haul so forgive yourself, if you are not made for the big screen perfect right away.

Exchange lists.

Try to make each of these sessions limited to a single topic. Maybe let One pick the topic and who is One is alternated each time.

Spend some time refining the like-dislike lists
Add "I want-need" lists.

When someone freaks out, stay at the table and focus on the physical sensations in your body ( get away from the abstract emotional labels i.e. I feel unloved or angry and instead I feel a gripping sensation in my chest, my neck feels tight)

While I agree with Mr Switzerland (sorry forgot your name) about nature nurture and I too having been a big nurture fan am moving towards nature, I think we pick our significant partners with a canny skill to help us "complete" something or do therapy on our own lives. Most of us lack the technical skills trained psychotherapists have and like amateur mechanics often screw things up more than fix them.

And all therapists are not equal, just like cars and lovers or soup, you might need to shop around.

Debbie, both you and Ray seem to be having communications problems and the exercises I listed above have helped many of the couples I have worked with. Off on a side note about small breasts and disparaging husbands, I lived with a therapist (very sexually enlightened BDSM savvy) and her lawyer husband (yes indeed divorce specialist! What a pair). And just to clear this dynamic up a bit more, because this guy could remove a man's testicles through his wallet (heads up to Robin Williams) was a sub-cuck to his wife while she was a sub to me. (End of preamble)

One of her clients was a couple with a petite charming wife of A-cup beauties who broke down during one session blubbering about how her husband hated her because of her tiny tits!

Well, I love and adore women. I am never going to complain about the size of your chest. However, AA-cup, small hard nipples, please move to the front of the line. My cut off comes in the B-C area and nipples play a major part in this. I also had a large group of friends of similar mind. Tiny Tits (as I will refer to her) was invited to a pool party where everyone was mostly nude. And she was guided to me and my friends. Who proceeded to worship her and disparage her husband. She even got worshiped by one of my female friends with lovely B-C sized chest who also loved tiny tits. By the end of a long day, her self esteem made it difficult to fit her head through a sliding glass door. She had not just admirers, but more than a few men down on bended knee, as we used to say in the olden days, pledging a life of love and luxury any time she wanted it.

Her husband looked upon her differently from that day on. She chose to cuckold him over divorce, after all these self-esteem issues can be quite thorny, as one of you pointed out and often needs long term, deep and extensive therapy, plus she looked like an elfin fairy princess. Fortunately, it worked out rather well, for her husband, a 6'2" strapping fellow had a deep dark secret, which might best be left to some more prurient site to describe in detail.

I relate this story to you Debbie because I suspect you want and need both a Ray and an Antonio-Roy in your life and I could easily imagine Ray does too. So maybe a bisexual Antonio?

And you could stop beating up Ray (well figuratively) for not being more manly and see if you could get your sub yahyahs out with a bisexual dominant, while letting your random abusiveness be channeled into a bit of whipping (literally) of Ray's bottom.

As the the deep kissing, you might say, "I've been taking lessons. Want to see if I've improved?"

I mean you have the rest of your life to "play around" with this. I have known a number of very sweet submissive women, who discovered a Domme inside themselves when dealing with a husband they loved and adored who sound quite similar to your Ray, who frankly sounds like a bit of a charming, but confused little boy.

Take your time. You stop learning and growing after you are dead.

Make your mistakes, own up to them, which it seems like you are well on your way to doing.
 
Funny, I've seen a few members who don't exactly use restraint; but perhaps it's okay for some to speak exactly as they please, but not for others? Is there a guide anywhere on the forum so we know who is allowed to excoriate and insult, and who is expected to speak gently and courteously even to Nazis and ax murderers? ;)

I think on topic tough love is one thing, sometimes somebody needs a constructive criticism. Sometimes you might have to bring up another thread and be like "well on another thread you said this do you think that might have something to do with this?" To go on somebody's post and say "gee I feel sorry for your future partners" and such, isn't really helpful in in my opinion. it looks like it was posted to just be hurtful. Or going on somebody's thread and just saying stuff about the blog that doesn't have anything to do with the topic other than the fact you really want to put that poster in their place is messed up.
 
@ Inyourendo ... right, I agree with what you're saying.

@ WhatHappened ... don't worry I'm not a mod, I don't get to control what the guidelines are. From the guidelines that exist (and that were written by someone other than me), I gather that *anyone* is allowed to excoriate and insult, and that *no one* is expected to speak gently and courteously (to whomever). I think the mods will intervene if a conversation gets too heated, but my observation is that they seldom feel the need.

When I say, I believe that no matter what board it is, one should show a little restraint in how one expresses one's opinions, I am *only* making a suggestion. I am *not* laying down the law. If you want to know what is and isn't *allowed* on this site, turn to the mods and guidelines for answers.
 
(Part One)

Ray and I went to see Margret, our therapist, for the second time. Margaret asked me and Ray how our week had been. Ray said that it had been a pretty good week. I told Margaret that it had not been such a great week. Margaret asked me why I felt so differently than Ray did about the week we spent together. I told Margaret that I had gone off on Ray the other night about dinner and the laundry, and that he and I didn't communicate, that Ray let me spout off and never seemed to care.

Margaret Asked Ray what his thoughts were about what I had just said. Ray said that he loved me and that he tried not to dwell on those things that he considered negative. Margaret asked Ray if he remembered the night I had spoken of, with the dinner and the laundry. Ray told Margaret that he remembered. Ray told Margaret that he had put too much milk in the potatoes and that because he had sliced the potatoes that they retained too much water, and that i had helped out by finding some dried mashed potatoes and every thing was good.

I brought up to Margaret that before the potato incident that I had asked Ray to play with me, sexually, and that he gave me no response. Margaret asked Ray if he remembered that. Ray said that he did. Margaret asked Ray why he didn't respond to me. Ray told Margaret that he had nodded to me and had even told my son that we were going to go to bed as soon as he was finished with his coffee. Margaret asked me if I remembered it happening that way. I said that I did.

Margaret then asked Ray what happened next. Ray told Margaret that he had gone into the kitchen to put away the rest of dinner and that I had gone to the laundry room and had exploded because he had put too many clothes in the washer. Margaret asked me if I remembered that happening. I told her that I did remember. Ray then told Margaret that I continued to go off for a good 15 minutes or so. Margaret asked me if that was true. I said that it was.

Margaret then asked me if Ray and I played, and I said no. I told Margaret that Ray ended up sleeping on the couch. Margaret asked me if was happy about Ray sleeping on the couch. I told her no. Margaret then asked me why I had checked the laundry. I told Margaret that my son had been in the laundry room and was asking what to do about all of the clothes. When I opened the washer there were way too many clothes in it. Margaret asked me if I had a problem with Ray putting away the food after dinner. I said no. Then Margaret asked me where in the dinner put away and the laundry did playing fit. I didn't have an answer.

Margaret asked us how our day had been before coming to see her. I told Margaret that we had an episode on the way to see her. I told Margaret that me and Ray had stopped for a bite to eat on the way to see her. We stopped at Del Taco. I ordered tacos and Ray ordered a cheeseburger, with no lettuce and no tomatoes. When we got our order, Ray ate his cheeseburger, that had lettuce and tomato on it. I told Margaret that I had told Ray that I was disappointed in Ray for not taking the cheeseburger back and getting what he ordered. I told Margaret that I was disappointed because Ray didn't stand up for himself.

Margaret asked Ray for his side of the story. Ray said it wasn't a big deal, that he needed to eat the vegetables. And again that it wasn't a big deal. Margaret asked Ray why he didn't just tell the manager and get what he had ordered. Ray told Margaret that he didn't make a fuss because it really wasn't that big of a deal. Margaret then looked at me and asked me to tell her about my siblings. I wasn't sure what my siblings had to do with Ray not standing up for himself, but I answered Margaret's question anyway.

I told Margaret that my childhood was not a happy one. I was adopted by my grandparents when I was two years old. My birth mother was mentally ill and had been put into a mental institution. My grandparents took care of me for a year, then my mother, the one who raised me, took me into her home because my grandparent's health was not good. The mother, the one who raised me, is my birth mother's sister. So, essentially my "mother" is my aunt.

I was brought into a home and lived with my "mother" and father and three older brothers and an older sister. I told Margaret that both of my parents were ministers, and that they were usually very busy with church and all that entialed. So, us kids did a lot of raising our selves. Since I was the youngest, I always got everyone's hand-me-downs. And because I was the youngest, I rarely got as much food as I wanted. Eating with my family was like pigs at a trough.

Many of my childhood memories are of spending time alone, because it was better than being pushed into the rose bushes by my oldest brother or my sister. My middle brother was the golden child. He couldn't do anything wrong, but he did get cancer and killed himself when he was 27. My youngest brother was often with friends and spent as little time with the family or at home. The majority of my childhood memories involved my sister, my middle brother and my oldest brother. Mostly my sister and my oldest brother.

My oldest brother and my sister liked to throw things at me or put gum in my hair. My sister used to lock me in closets. I was seen by my sister and my oldest brother as the "step child." I told Margaret that when my sister started dating and my brother got involved with friends, I had a lot more time alone or with my youngest brother. Margaret then asked me to tell her about my parents relationship, as I remembered it.

I told Margaret that I didn't remember ever seeing my mother and father kiss, or ever hold hands. To me it was a miracle that they were able to have children, other than by immaculate conception. Margaret asked me who I felt closest to, my mother of my father. I told Margaret that my father was the one I trusted and felt loved by the most. I told Margaret that my mother was not really the nurturing type, other than with my middle brother. I told Margaret that my father was very gentle and my mother was very DOM.

My "mother" always seemed angry, except when she was doing church work. My father died when I was 11 years old. It was after my father died that I overheard my "mother" saying that my father had cheated on her, with her sister, and that she hated having to raise his child that he had with her sister. And that was me. After my father died, my "mother got more involved with the church, meaning she wasn't home as often.

My relationship with my older brother changed, drastically, after my father passed away. I was playing with my youngest brother and had hid under my oldest brother's bed where I found his stack of Hustler magazines. I had never seen anything like them before then, and I liked what I saw in the magazines. I also had thoughts of my oldest brother doing things I saw in the magazines with other girls.

Margaret asked me what thoughts I'd had about my oldest brother. I told Margaret that I imagined my older brother doing the things I saw in the magazine. Margaret asked me if I had ever seen my oldest brother naked. I told Margaret that I had seen all of my brothers naked. Margaret asked me if I had ever had thoughts about any of my brothers before I found the magazines. And I told her yes.

I told Margaret that I had fantasized about being sexual with all three of my brothers, because that would be better than them throwing me into the rose bushes or throwing rocks at me. Margaret nodded and said, "Uh huh." I then admitted that I did have sex with my brothers. As a matter of fact, I lost my virginity to my older brother. Margaret then asked me how it felt to lose my virginity to my brother.

I told Margaret that I felt loved by my brothers, for the first time, when they had sex with me. I told Margaret that I felt loved mostly because no one had really loved me until then, except my father, who had been my provider and protector.

Margaret asked me if I ever regretted having sex with my brothers, and I told her that I never did regret it, nor do I regret having sex with my cousin's around the same time. Margaret asked me where I remembered being, mentally, at that time. I told Margaret that I felt loved. I finally found that I had something that my brothers and cousins liked about me. And I wanted them to love and like me. I knew how to then.

Margaret then asked me to tell her more about my father. I told Margaret that the more I thought about my father, the more I remembered him being a screamer. My mom was the door slammer. My father had a really bad temper, the one that my oldest brother took over after my father died. My father was more a Dom and my mother wasn't the Dom until my father passed.
 
(Part Two)


Margaret then asked me what about Ray reminded me of my father. I told Margaret that I didn't think Ray reminded me in any way of my father. Margaret asked me which of my brothers or cousins Ray reminded me of. I just shook my head. Margaret then asked who in my life reminded me of Ray or who in my life resembled Ray in some way, physically or not.

As I thought, Margaret asked me to tell her of the best date that I could remember, but not one with Ray. I told Margaret that the first date I went on with my second husband was very special. My second husband, on our first date, told me that I could bring my daughter along. We went to a buffalo steak house. While we were at the steak house my second husband-to-be bought my daughter a little stuffed buffalo. My second husband-to-be was such a charmer. He was dressed to the nines, looked good, liked me and didn't care that I had a kid.

I remembered thinking that this really good looking guy wants to be with me, and he doesn't mind that I have a kid. He's built, tall. Wow! Margaret then asked me what happened with my second husband. I told her the whole ordeal, and why he is in prison for the rest of his life. Margaret looked at Ray and asked him if anything I had been saying was news to him, and he said that he already knew everything I had said.

Margaret told me to clear my mind. She waited a minute, then she asked me to think of Ray. Then Margaret asked me to tell her what came to mind when I thought about Ray. I told Margaret that I was glad he was with me. Margaret then asked me what we'd talked about during the session, so far. I told her that we had talked a lot about me and my past. Margaret asked me if I thought that talking about my past was relivent to the present. I told her that I thought so. What Margaret asked me next caught me off guard. She asked me if I was able to differentiate the past from the present.

Margaret asked me to think about what she had just asked me, and for me and Ray to try to live in the moment for the next week. I told Margaret that we would try. Ray agreed.

When we left Margaret's office, neither me or Ray knew what had just happened. Margaret got me to tell her of my father and my mother, my birth mother, my siblings and other family members, as well as my second husband. Margaret didn't talk much with Ray. Margaret seemed to just want to know about my past, then asked both me and Ray to live in the moment for the next week. What does that mean?
 
I would guess that by "live in the moment," Margaret might mean that she wants you and Ray to concentrate on what's going on with yourselves and each other at each moment. Don't think about the past; don't think about the future. Don't think about your other lovers when you're with Ray. Don't compare him to them.

Be fully, mentally and physically, WITH Ray when you're with him, and keep your mind on what's happening right then, in that present time.

It sounds to me like Margaret thinks that what's happened in your past is causing a lot of the problems in the present, and that's kind of along the lines of what I said before about you struggling with Ray because of the problems you had with your first two husbands.

Your past contributes to who you are, but you are not your past, if that makes sense. But because your past was traumatic and abusive, I think Margaret's saying that she sees that instead of being able to live your life in the present, you're stuck in the past, repeating patterns that you've lived most of your life, and seeing Ray as one of those who has hurt you--or expecting him to hurt you because others have--instead of seeing who he is. You're used to dominant men who only love you if you have sex with them, and from your posts here, it sounds very much like you're trying to force Ray into that mold because it's what you're used to, instead of accepting him for who he is and living your life with that person instead of with who you want him to be.
 
Heh, the mysterious wisdom of therapists, eh?

Seriously, it sounds to me like Margaret's doing a good job so far. I think you and Ray both have a ton of baggage to unpack, and Margaret is only working with a limited fixed amount of time once a week. So she has to choose carefully how to use that time, and I think she is drawing on her knowledge and experience to help her decide each step of each session.

In this (last) session, I see her as peeling away the layers of what's happening in the present, and following that train of thought into your childhood and how it relates to the present. In a future session, I bet she will dig into Ray's past. But she's probably not done digging into your past either (if she's as good a therapist as she seems to be).

One thing I've noticed is that Margaret is trying not to tell you what to do. After an entire session with you, her only instruction was for you guys to try to live in the moment. The rest of the session was made up of her asking searching questions, that I think were meant to help you analyze your own past and situation. This is what therapists generally do. They don't try to tell you what to think, they just ask questions that will help you figure stuff out.

It seems clear that it is important to Ray to maintain a positive attitude about life, to not dwell on the negative things, and to not make a big deal out of things and stir up trouble. He likes to be as passive as possible, even though passive people can be passive-aggressive at times (such as delaying things, shutting down emotionally, etc.).

I can also see that you suffered a lot of abuse as a kid, much (most?) of it from your sister and oldest brother. You witnessed a marriage between your (adopted) parents that was apparently alternatingly cold/distant and angry/discordant. And you probably learned to associate sex with getting people to love you.

Again I am sorry that you went through that abuse and that intense negativity. From your new posts here, I see that it was worse than I had realized.

I am curious to hear of what path Margaret will follow in the next session, and I feel hopeful that the sessions will pay off in time. Of course you know that this pay-off can only materialize very slowly. Unraveling your (yours and Ray's) past and present will be a painstaking process. The instructions you have to live in the moment this week are probably just as much of an exploratory exercise as they are a therapeutic exercise. Margaret will probably ask you (next week) how you felt when you were trying to stay in the moment and how that affected your interactions.

I also think Margaret will eventually dig into Ray's thoughts, feelings, and philosophies about sex, because that is a very complex subject and I think it has a huge effect on your relationship with him. He wants to be accomodating when you ask for sex, yet he also sees sex as beneath himself and he wants to remain aloof from it. So when you ask him if he wants to play, he probably has somewhat of a conflict inside. He doesn't know whether to please you or to "remain pure."

All of these things are food for thought, for sure.
 
I would guess that by "live in the moment," Margaret might mean that she wants you and Ray to concentrate on what's going on with yourselves and each other at each moment. Don't think about the past; don't think about the future. Don't think about your other lovers when you're with Ray. Don't compare him to them.

Be fully, mentally and physically, WITH Ray when you're with him, and keep your mind on what's happening right then, in that present time.

It sounds to me like Margaret thinks that what's happened in your past is causing a lot of the problems in the present, and that's kind of along the lines of what I said before about you struggling with Ray because of the problems you had with your first two husbands.

Your past contributes to who you are, but you are not your past, if that makes sense. But because your past was traumatic and abusive, I think Margaret's saying that she sees that instead of being able to live your life in the present, you're stuck in the past, repeating patterns that you've lived most of your life, and seeing Ray as one of those who has hurt you--or expecting him to hurt you because others have--instead of seeing who he is. You're used to dominant men who only love you if you have sex with them, and from your posts here, it sounds very much like you're trying to force Ray into that mold because it's what you're used to, instead of accepting him for who he is and living your life with that person instead of with who you want him to be.

KC; I had written a long post about yesterday, last night, and this morning, but before I post that, I want to address your and kdt26417's posts. KC, you said, "Margaret might mean that she wants you and Ray to concentrate on what's going on with yourselves and each other at each moment." And I totally agree.

I have a much better understanding of what that means now. And when you read my longer post, you will understand why.

KC, you also said, "You're used to dominant men who only love you if you have sex with them, and from your posts here, it sounds very much like you're trying to force Ray into that mold because it's what you're used to, instead of accepting him for who he is and living your life with that person instead of with who you want him to be."

I will admit that there is truth in that. Ray is a wonderful man. He really is. And my past has really had a hold on me. I have reflected my past on Ray too much. Ray has been so loving toward me, though. He is not the type to put anyone down. He accepts everyone for who they are. And I am so happy that he hasn't seen me as some kind of monster. Well, he has said that there are times when my eyes turn a glowing red and I grow fangs and horns and claws. He has also called me his bi-polar bear.

I truly feel I deserve anything that happens to me, be it good or bad. Luckily a lot of good has come to me. And I take your words, "Be fully, mentally and physically, WITH Ray when you're with him, and keep your mind on what's happening right then, in that present time." as very good advise.

Thank you.
 
Back
Top