What is "romantic love"? Is it a good or bad thing?

[xxii]

Huh. Very interesting thread. And very intersting to see all the takes on the notion of "romance".

A few thoughts: I think that love is a choice. Of course, there is a certain "something" which provides the foundation for that choice to be made, and this changes from person to person, but as far as I see it, there is no inevitability to feeling love or how we love, it's always a choice, something we can build. Lust, infatuation, on the other hand, they do seem inevitable, and it's usually those characteristics which are projected onto "romantic love" and "love" in general, as something which happens to you (i.e. you "fall" in love), and regarding which you have no decision over. You would similarly have no decision on how you love, according to this perspective, but this is very suspicious, and I believe most people here would object to it, seeing as poly seems to entail a reflection on how we love and an active stance on how we approach love.

In any case, I used to think, maybe equivocating the term, of romantic love as something to describe the kind of feelings that you have for a partner or partners of intimate relationships that make them different to friends. Usually feelings that involve the desire to build a life together, of imagining that person as your safety net, of thinking about that person as someone who will give you a kind of whole intimacy, which involves emotional, intellectual, physical intimacy, etc.

Of course, now I am reconsidering these terms. I've never been in a poly situation, and whenever I've thought about it I've always thought about it happening with a "Primary" partner, and us having relationships that while not altogether casual, there is either an explicit intention to set boundaries to those "secondary" relationships or a lack of desire of having those relationships progress into a deeper kind of connection. I feel comfortable with that idea, but I'm no longer sure of whether that can work.

And in any case, the view I just espoused doesn't reflect what people in poly relationships that don't work through "Primary/secondary" distinctions feel or think about it.

My question is the following: Do you think that there is a distinction to be made regarding feelings? Is it unnecessary? Like, would you be comfortable in thinking about your relationships and your partner's relationships as just involving feelings, in the most general sense? I seem to be unable to throw it out of the window, both because mt mind works making distinctions, so as to better understand things, and because I guess it anchors the setting of limits and boundaries (i.e. we both agree that we want to have X kind of feelings for each other and not for other people).

 

[kdt26417]

Re:

"Do you think that there is a distinction to be made regarding feelings? Is it unnecessary?"

You mean a distinction between romantic feelings and platonic feelings? I guess I consider it useful to distinguish between those two. Going without the distinction might be doable, but I don't think it'd be easy.

 

[Spork]

I completely disagree about love being always a choice and something you build...and also for me it exists very separately from a desire to cohabitate, entwine lives, and build a legacy together.

This is a huge point of contention between my ex and I, as well.

I was supposed to love him. He demanded it, we had kids together, and it was "the right thing to do." I went through the motions and kept things lukewarm-comfortable for 18 years. But I never loved him with any particular passion. A familial love grew there, simply because we faced hardships as a team, and we had kids together, and we had a long relationship. It was the kind of love where I still care what happens to him, but I really don't want to be around him much. I fantasized constantly that another woman would come and take him off my hands and I'd be able to move on and be alone. Is that "love?" Is that what should exist between a man and a woman? He would say that I was a failure as a wife because I could not CHOOSE to feel what I was SUPPOSED to feel. I did not want, or need him, and that was my fault. I clearly didn't try hard enough to fix the problem, to feel the things that he needed me to feel. That I was supposed to feel.

I don't really know how you make yourself want or need someone or something that you don't. It's as foreign a concept to me, as forcing myself to eat a food every day, that I don't like, in the hopes that I can change myself to like that....and frankly I don't see the point in even trying. Of course other people are very eager to tell me how I could change to be more like what they think I should be. Oh, well. I don't know how you can choose to have feelings, or not to have them, other than to just not have enough contact with other people who could potentially throw sparks. But I really, REALLY, do not know how to have sex and remain deliberately closed off emotionally...not saying I'll fall for every person I have sex with, but the potential exists. If it's going to happen...it happens. I don't develop feels only when it's "allowed." And therefore I do not understand how a parter can hold another partner to the standard of "OK, you're allowed to have sex with others, but not to have feelings. No feelings allowed." To me, that's like telling the clouds that they are not allowed to rain. Good luck.

Now, I don't want to live with anyone. I don't want a safety net, I am my own safety net. I don't want someone to grow old with and live with and sleep next to. I sleep better alone in my own bed, in my own home. And yet I love...yes, LOVE...all four of my partners. I don't consider any one of them to be my "Primary." I don't have to check off certain life milestones or accomplishments to prove that I'm invested in these relationships. I know how I feel, and I do my best to show it to them.

I would like very much to know, if men are (usually or in general) able to prevent emotions or deliberately choose and build emotions, and women are the ones for whom "the spark" flares like an act of nature, or not, and we are at its mercy if we give it a chance...or is that just how I am in particular and others are different? Do most people have so much control over their feelings?

All I can say is that for me it's not a realistic expectation and I've learned to warn potential partners about that up front.

 

[kdt26417]

I think I very much tend to have/develop feelings for people with whom I have sex.

 

[xxii]

Hey Spork, I understand how affirming that love is a choice presents that flip-side, where it can be used argumentatively to make people feel guilty if they haven't don't feel X or Y, given how we "choose love".

I guess what I mean is that, while there are some fundamental feelings that are beyond the scope of what is rational, what is willed, what constitutes a choice, it is also true that we do have a degree of agency regarding how we choose to face what we feel, the situations we are in. That is why I said that lust and infatuation are inevitable, on large account because they are our brains on hella chemicals; although I do believe that we can grow out of or into things that make us lust after people, traits and characteristics that make them attractive and desirable.

What I mean when I say that for me love is a choice is that the way we choose to relate to people, the way we choose to structure our relationships, is very much dependant on the choices we make about what we are feeling. You can, for example, not pursue a person you have lust or infatuation for, or if in a situation where you are growing apart of someone choose to stimulate the relationship and cultivate intimacy. I also think that we can be the object of our own reflection, and there is a lot to learn if you want to about how and why we structure relationships the way we do. In fact, I believe that polyamory implicitly acknowledges this in so far as it is a departure from compulsory monogamy. If we were to stick to how we are raised, then how would we choose to love otherwise?

Of course, the situation in which you are in it seems that the quality of the relationship you had was such that there was no basis on which to 'work things' out.

KDT: Yeah, very much so. One of the reasons it was so hard for me to understand my ex-partner's decision to pursue an open relationship or poly, and which caused a great deal anxiety for me, eventually contributing to the dissolution of the relationship, was her unwillingness to acknowledge that the need for distinctions wasn't arbitrary, nor where the terms, and even if they were faulty, they expressed something worthy of discussing together. I just didn't understand what her motivation was in pursuing other relationships, whether she was looking for other romantic partners, etc. which made me feel sorta in the dark, and unable to make a decision as to whether I wanted to pursue the relationship on those terms, the terms were never specified!

 

[Spork]

Hey Spork, I understand how affirming that love is a choice presents that flip-side, where it can be used argumentatively to make people feel guilty if they haven't don't feel X or Y, given how we "choose love".

I guess what I mean is that, while there are some fundamental feelings that are beyond the scope of what is rational, what is willed, what constitutes a choice, it is also true that we do have a degree of agency regarding how we choose to face what we feel, the situations we are in. That is why I said that lust and infatuation are inevitable, on large account because they are our brains on hella chemicals; although I do believe that we can grow out of or into things that make us lust after people, traits and characteristics that make them attractive and desirable.

What I mean when I say that for me love is a choice is that the way we choose to relate to people, the way we choose to structure our relationships, is very much dependant on the choices we make about what we are feeling. You can, for example, not pursue a person you have lust or infatuation for, or if in a situation where you are growing apart of someone choose to stimulate the relationship and cultivate intimacy. I also think that we can be the object of our own reflection, and there is a lot to learn if you want to about how and why we structure relationships the way we do. In fact, I believe that polyamory implicitly acknowledges this in so far as it is a departure from compulsory monogamy. If we were to stick to how we are raised, then how would we choose to love otherwise?

Of course, the situation in which you are in it seems that the quality of the relationship you had was such that there was no basis on which to 'work things' out.

KDT: Yeah, very much so. One of the reasons it was so hard for me to understand my ex-partner's decision to pursue an open relationship or poly, and which caused a great deal anxiety for me, eventually contributing to the dissolution of the relationship, was her unwillingness to acknowledge that the need for distinctions wasn't arbitrary, nor where the terms, and even if they were faulty, they expressed something worthy of discussing together. I just didn't understand what her motivation was in pursuing other relationships, whether she was looking for other romantic partners, etc. which made me feel sorta in the dark, and unable to make a decision as to whether I wanted to pursue the relationship on those terms, the terms were never specified!

I think that part of our disconnect is that different people absolutely do define love (and experience, and perceive love) in different ways.

I have often said that I don't believe that I can control my feelings. I can absolutely control what I do and say as a result of my feelings. Even my thought processes that either result from emotions or would feed into and increase or decrease them sometimes, those can be controlled. But the emotions themselves in a direct way? Nope. Not for me anyhow.

Again, I'd love to hear from anyone on this, because I don't know how rare or common that kind of emotional experience is in people, or people of either gender, age, etc.

There was the one, I fell in love with him inside of a week. I didn't have to tell him I had those feelings, but I did. I assured him it was no kind of trap, meant nothing as to me asking him for any sort of commitment. To me, loving someone (at least in that way, and there are certainly other modes of love in my experience) simply means, "I think you're the bees knees, I really enjoy you, and I desire more times just like this one. Thanks for being in my life, you awesome mofo, you!" That's all. And once I feel that way for someone, they've got a little piece of my heart reserved as all theirs forever. I won't forget them...sometimes even if I try. Well clearly it meant something different to him, because he wigged out and ghosted me despite being all about me and seemingly enjoying what we were doing just prior.

To some people, love means commitment and a course of action.

To some of us, it's just what you're referring to as lust or infatuation...although I don't like that because it trivializes it. Like in order for it to be legitimate, you've got to get past lust and infatuation and love has to grow over time. Many people seem to think this. I don't. I do believe...maybe not in love at first sight, but at first scent, touch, kiss, conversation, sexual encounter...? Yeah. If all of that is awesome and leaves me wanting more, yeah. But I don't think that love is this sacred, limited commodity that must be reserved for only a special one or few, or that it is cheap when given easily either. No one has to work to earn my love. They either ARE or they AREN'T someone I can love. Sometimes unwisely, but my emotions don't bow down to my intellect.

 

[kdt26417]

I don't think I can dictate my emotions. At most, I can influence the trajectory of my emotional environment.

 

[Spork]

Also worth noting is that the title of the thread says "romantic love." That deserves a bit of definition, too...

(My own personal opinion/take on it):

Romance: Courtship behavior and deliberate gestures that are intended to display affection and establish or reinforce a loving bond between people who are either in an intimate relationship or attempting to establish one.

Love: A feeling of emotional attachment and investment, or desire to invest oneself. Covers everything from familial bonds, to meaningful friendships, to blazing infatuation or fixation on a new paramour...though in a successful relationship of longer duration, the infatuation feelings take on more comfortable and familial aspects of investment as they settle in.

Romantic Love: A differentiation from love felt towards parents, children, siblings, friends, pets, etc. The kind of love that usually accompanies an intimate, or potentially intimate relationship (though not necessarily sexually intimate...as in the case of asexual romantics.)

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

Also worth noting is that the title of the thread says "romantic love." That deserves a bit of definition, too...

Romantic Love: A differentiation from love felt towards parents, children, siblings, friends, pets, etc. The kind of love that usually accompanies an intimate, or potentially intimate relationship (though not necessarily sexually intimate...as in the case of asexual romantics.)

I'm really curious what this "differentiation" is for other people.

For *me*, the difference between the love I feel for friends/family and the love I feel for my husband is the escalator stuff. The desire to mesh my life completely with someone else's, to go from being two individuals to being one unit.

I've never had that in any of my other relationships (or maybe I just don't let myself go there?) ... The love I feel for my boyfriend is not qualitatively different from the love I feel for my best friends. The difference is sex, and yes that creates its own special bond, but in terms of the love... I feel like I have "life partner love", which I think of as romantic, and "not life partner love" which is like what Spork described as friend/family love.

I guess what I'm wondering is - take away the relationship escalator, and sex, and is romantic love different from friendly or familial love

 

[Spork]

I'm really curious what this "differentiation" is for other people.

For *me*, the difference between the love I feel for friends/family and the love I feel for my husband is the escalator stuff. The desire to mesh my life completely with someone else's, to go from being two individuals to being one unit.

I've never had that in any of my other relationships (or maybe I just don't let myself go there?) ... The love I feel for my boyfriend is not qualitatively different from the love I feel for my best friends. The difference is sex, and yes that creates its own special bond, but in terms of the love... I feel like I
have "life partner love", which I think of as romantic, and "not life partner love" which is like what Spork described as friend/family love.

I guess what I'm wondering is - take away the relationship escalator, and sex, and is romantic love different from friendly or familial love

This will be interesting, because I'm a very non-escalator sort of gal by nature and/or preference. I didn't do the escalator with my ex because I wanted to, but because life just sorta demanded it. It was something I was dead set against in the beginning, and I realize now that I've always had a lot of discomfort with it. I have an intense desire to live independently.

And I have seen enough obligatory, dysfunctional, and unhappy marriages to know that just because one is doing that, does not make the relationship more valid or legit than a non-escalator one. It's all what we choose to make of it.

Hm. Differences I can think of...

I have more desire for company and contact with those I feel romantic love for. There is something indulgent about it, that feeds my spirit. I'm a free adult and they are a free adult and we come together by choice, not necessity. I chose them, they chose me. Every day of continued relationship is an ongoing choosing of each other. If anything, being non-escalator makes that part of it MORE valid in my thinking, because it would be easy to un-choose each other. Voluntaryism. Whereas parents, kids, siblings...you can choose to distance each other, but there are often obligations and ties of blood that we just don't sever.

Friends...I spend less time with my friends than with my loves. I tend to see my friends in group-social settings, as opposed to making time for them specifically.

A lot of the differentiation for me is in how I handle these relationships, how I choose to obligate myself. Both time and money are precious and limited commodities for me. I don't feel extremely obligated to friends, for either...but my relationships I do. I actually worry if I am being a good investment for the loves in my life. I fuss and worry if the accounts don't feel balanced, even though I shouldn't. (I'm an accounting nerd, this is just me.) I'm uncomfortable because I had to accept the Analyst's offer to pay for some necessary vehicle work that I couldn't afford. I'm uncomfortable that Zen gave me more gifts for Christmas and my Birthday than I gave him. I'm uncomfortable that Fire and Hefe have given me more massages than I've given them back scratches or anything like that. These things weigh in the back of my mind as unpaid debts. With my friends and family, I don't worry about such things too much. I worry constantly about trying to find enough time to spend with my lovers. I feel a strong need to put energy into maintaining those relationships. The rest...family and friends...I find it all too easy to take them for granted and not concern myself about them, they aren't going anywhere.

I feel that a big difference with romantic relationships is that if you mismanage them, in one way or another, take them for granted, it is very possible to lose them. Much moreso than that friend you can look up years later and have a nice hours long phone call with, or your teenage kid who just wants to be left alone, or your parent who sends you a Birthday card every year regardless of whether you ever visit. Romantic relationships require more care.

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

This is interesting I am the most escalator gal ever, lol.

I chose them, they chose me. Every day of continued relationship is an ongoing choosing of each other. If anything, being non-escalator makes that part of it MORE valid in my thinking, because it would be easy to un-choose each other. Voluntaryism. Whereas parents, kids, siblings...you can choose to distance each other, but there are often obligations and ties of blood that we just don't sever.

I actually feel like I choose my husband every day, too Un-choosing might be hard ... But we would, if it wasn't working. And we choose every day to work (hard!!!) on having the best relationship we can.

On the other hand, the family and blood thing... I feel none of that. My bio family sucks. I severed those ties long ago. I kept in touch with my grandmother until she passed away ten years ago, so I heard bits and pieces, but now? No idea if any of them are dead, or alive and living two blocks from me.

Friends...I spend less time with my friends than with my loves. I tend to see my friends in group-social settings, as opposed to making time for them specifically.

I think this is... Sort of true for me. Well, define group social setting My friends who live with a partner, I frequently see them with their partner, too. My single friends, it's more often one on one.

A lot of the differentiation for me is in how I handle these relationships, how I choose to obligate myself. Both time and money are precious and limited commodities for me. I don't feel extremely obligated to friends, for either...but my relationships I do.

Hmmm. I feel just as obligated (in terms of both time, money balance, energy) to friends as I do to guys I'm dating. Especially when it comes to time, and being there for holidays and milestones, and helping in a crisis.

The rest...family and friends...I find it all too easy to take them for granted and not concern myself about them, they aren't going anywhere.

I feel that a big difference with romantic relationships is that if you mismanage them, in one way or another, take them for granted, it is very possible to lose them. Much moreso than that friend you can look up years later and have a nice hours long phone call with, or your teenage kid who just wants to be left alone, or your parent who sends you a Birthday card every year regardless of whether you ever visit. Romantic relationships require more care.

I'm soooo different here... I put every bit as much time and care into my friendships as (non escalator) relationships. (And the increased time and effort with my marriage is really just... Well, we live together, and so there's lots of automatic time, and lots of energy into joint life project stuff.) If a "friend" kind of ghosted on me and got too busy, then looked me up years later, I'd tell them to fuck off Those people who come and go... Those are not friends, to me. Acquaintances. Former classmates or co workers, etc. But I don't call them friends.

I can't speak much to family, as I don't have kids and my dad is the only bio relative I still talk to. But - I talk to my Dad (and his wife) multiple times a week. They live across the country, and the times we go months without seeing each other are hard. I freak out, a lot, about the fact that they visit my step sister more often than me

I think I just... Don't do anything other than intense relationships. If it's a once a year chat or visit type friend or family relationship, I don't really care if it disappears. That level of connection doesn't hold much value for me. In a way, my friends are my family, so there is maybe stronger than average love there... And yet they're a chosen family, so there's also the awareness of having to nurture and grow those connections.

Anyway, it's truly fascinating to me to see how others frame their relationships. I've always thought the "no feelings! don't fall in love!" rules in so many open relationships were bullshit, because who doesn't have *feelings* and *love* for many people? If Andy and I had a "don't love anyone else" rule, we wouldn't be able to have any friends. But I may be an outlier in that for me, those love feelings have less to do with courtship or sex, and more to do with friendship.

 

[Spork]

Well, I also question the stance of those who proclaim it OK for a significant other to have sex with another person, but not for them to have feelings for the other person. Like on an instinctual level, we fear more that sharing of emotional bonds, than we do empty, meaningless sex. The issue I have with that is...there are STIs that a.) Aren't absolutely prevented by use of condoms, and b.) aren't commonly tested for, or can be tested false negative...most notably HSV, which due to a family member and several close friends in the BDSM community being "out" with me about it, I've educated myself on extensively. So you're OK with your partner being exposed and exposing you to an incurable virus, but you are not OK with them having loving feelings for another person? What kind of silliness is that?

Life and relationships are full of all kinds of risk. But most of us will agree that the potential rewards make it worth it.

As for me and friendships and levels of engagement and "group-social" settings...

I'm a very community-minded person. First for me there was the GWAR community, a good 300+ people I consider to be my friends of some level or another...maybe 60-70 of them I consider close like family. They are scattered all over the world. Now I have the central Colorado BDSM/kink community too. And I've quickly become very close to a number of them, to the point where I'm comfortable saying that I love them.

The GWAR people I used to see at least once a year, because we'd all travel to Richmond for a festival...or I'd travel wherever to see a really special few of them. Like last year I went to Florida because I found out that my friend from Wales would be there and I wanted to surprise him. While there, I saw my little brother, whom I love but almost never see or speak to (seriously, years can go by with no contact with him besides Facebook) and a few of my other dearest GWAR family. And the band, of course. I'm...close-ish with the new singer. The BDSM people I see at events, at bars, at discussion groups, play parties, workshops, etc. Maybe a few times a week, but not one-on-one. In between, we have social media, but usually not phone calls.

So I have hundreds of people that I do consider to be my non-romantic friends, even a few that have flogged me or other BDSM play at parties fall into that category. It's not sexual for me. I don't do sex without at least the intent of romance. They matter a lot to me and I love them, even if we don't talk often.

 

[FallenAngelina]

First for me there was the GWAR community...

Do you mean, like, GWAR GWAR or is GWAR some acronym I don't know about? I saw GWAR in 1991 in Seattle and never laughed so hard in my life.

 

[Spork]

Do you mean, like, GWAR GWAR or is GWAR some acronym I don't know about? I saw GWAR in 1991 in Seattle and never laughed so hard in my life.

That's the one.

I've been making friends among the fans and the band for years. I got to know Dave (former singer, deceased since 2014) in about 2007, and he was an amazing man and a wonderful and treasured friend. That loss devestated me, and everyone else who knew him.

They are still going though. They got the former bassist, Mike Bishop to come back and do vocals now. He had gone on to not only have 2 or 3 other bands he sang and/or played bass with, but he got his PhD and was a college professor and he still writes textbooks (sometimes while on tour!) I've befriended him, too. I can't talk about all of our activities because there are things he'd rather everyone didn't know...but we spent the night in Fort Lauderdale last year wandering around looking for lizards (he said he'd seen them earlier in the day and he had to show them to me, but apparently they aren't out anymore at like 3AM) and on a quest to get him some ice cream...

In retrospect, it was pretty hilarious.

But members of this fan community, we've stepped up and helped one another in times of hardship, often if one of us has a crisis, the word goes out and we rally to help. Once I had a problem, my Mom had a disaster in Florida and needed someone to help move her stuff out of a wrecked dwelling and into storage...I put out the word and two guys I'd met all of twice but were part of "the family" drove 2 hours to her place and helped get the job done on short notice. I coordinated a rescue from Washington State, for my Mom who lived in Florida at the time, with these connections. I've donated, gifted, and loaned money to "bohabs" (GWAR fans) in need, we've done things where the many artists in the family will make and sell art to raise money to help others out. Stuff like that.

It's been a pretty big part of my life. I have to step back and take a break from it all now because of all the changes going on...leaving my ex, moving into my own place, etc. But I'll be back, probably next year or the one after.

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

Spork, that community sounds amazing. I'll admit it's way more than I could process - do I even know 300 people? I do understand, much more now, how different definitions of "friend" and different ways of relating to people can color the meaning of "relationship" or "love".

 

[icesong]

I have somewhat similar interactions with parts of the SCA, especially locally, as Spork's GWAR experience - they're far closer than my family, and while I haven't had to call on that network, I've seen that same sort of thing happen.

 

[Spork]

Spork, that community sounds amazing. I'll admit it's way more than I could process - do I even know 300 people? I do understand, much more now, how different definitions of "friend" and different ways of relating to people can color the meaning of "relationship" or "love".

I tell you one thing, if it weren't for social media, there's no way I'd remember all the names. I'm a visual learner. If someone tells me their name in person, odds are good it's going in one ear and out the other. I need to process information through my eyeballs to really retain it.

They are amazing though and I feel very blessed. I have the GWAR community and now the BDSM community...and they are similar in a lot of ways, aside from the all-caps four letter thing... Both of them are groups of people anchored by a shared passion for a really intense sort of experience. Both tend to draw in quirky characters, colorful people, creative and smart and rebellious thinkers, geeks and nerds and weirdos. People who question the assumed norms of our culture and society.

And there is a certain amount of overlap in some of these circles...I've met a number of GWAR fans in the kink community, and some kinksters in the GWAR community.

icesong, as for the SCA, I've got some friends who are into that, too. And I know people who travel for Rennaissance Festivals and conventions and such, I think that is a pretty awesome and far-flung network. I've also heard stories about some of the kink that the Renn Festers get up to after hours...