when is sex, 'sex'?

Magdlyn said:
Oh, the patriarchy. It rears its ugly head once again.
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Yeah, it's going to take a bit longer before the more general definition of sex (that doesn't involve penile penetration) to be overwritten in both minds and legislation. So it's very valid for Karen to point out that there's still a lot of that traditional thinking out there, including by BB's wife.

I'll also happily admit that the majority of my life has been with a very similar attitude; I didn't consider that I'd actually had sex with a guy unless his penis had gone into my vagina. I gave (and got) a lot of head before I was ready for that to happen.

The sex I've had with women has been "taking turns" at best, and more frequently, me topping them. My wish for BB's wife is that she's found someone who is a truly engaged and equal bedfellow as a girlfriend.
 
Yeah, I never really thought about it either how my default way of thinking about and feeling whether or not I've had sex with someone is strictly in terms of PiV (though I have NEVER considered Lesbian sex to "not count," I simply lowered that bar in the absence of parts - which is still messed up but not AS messed up). Anything up to that for me has been "fooling around," definitely sexual but not capital S Sex. I guess I should really start reevaluating some things.
 
Evie said:
Yeah, it's going to take a bit longer before the more general definition of sex (that doesn't involve penile penetration) to be overwritten in both minds and legislation. So it's very valid for Karen to point out that there's still a lot of that traditional thinking out there, including by BB's wife.

I'll also happily admit that the majority of my life has been with a very similar attitude; I didn't consider that I'd actually had sex with a guy unless his penis had gone into my vagina. I gave (and got) a lot of head before I was ready for that to happen.
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I admit I also thought that way until about 11 years ago! (And I'm 64). I used to count up the people I had had "sex" with, and I only counted PIV. I'd actually had sex with 2 women in my late teens, and I didn't think to count it. How sexist I was!

I didn't give head or get it until after I'd started having intercourse at 16. So, that wasn't part of my equation. I gave and got lots of hand jobs in the year or two before that, though lol. And tons of making out (for hours at a time) and boob play.

Of course, now that I've been in a relationship with a woman for 11 years, I definitely count the sex we have as sex! And I've done more sexy kinky stuff with Pixi than I've ever done with anyone else, and that's highly stimulating to us sexually. I know some kinksters don't find kink sexual, their endorphins must elevate, but they don't get turned sexually, exactly.

The sex I've had with women has been "taking turns" at best, and more frequently, me topping them. My wish for BB's wife is that she's found someone who is a truly engaged and equal bedfellow as a girlfriend.
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I'm not sure what you mean by "taking turns" or Topping.

SenatorBinks27 said:
Yeah, I never really thought about it either how my default way of thinking about and feeling whether or not I've had sex with someone is strictly in terms of PiV (though I have NEVER considered Lesbian sex to "not count," I simply lowered that bar in the absence of parts - which is still messed up but not AS messed up). Anything up to that for me has been "fooling around," definitely sexual but not capital S Sex. I guess I should really start reevaluating some things.
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I guess sex as PIV only does make sense when you're young and terrified of getting (or getting someone) pregnant. But once you have reliable birth control, this shouldn't be as much of a distinction. If you're on hormonal bc, or have an IUD, and you're using condoms for PIV, and day after pills and/or abortion is legal in or near your state, it takes a lot of worry away.
 
Let's start with elaborating on Topping. I see this as the action of doing-to your partner, so if I'm Topping, I'll be the one holding the toys or what-have-you, or the one using my mouth or hands on my partner's body, specifically genitals. I'm not a fan of 69s, so this tends to happen one person at a time. Ergo, taking turns. This can apply with women or men.

As I have not being the wearer or receiver of a strap on (or any equivalent) I cannot comment on how I would experience that, but generally if I'm with a penis wielding man and that penis is in my vagina, I don't generally feel like something is being done "to" me, but that it is a cooperative endeavour.
 
Evie said:
Let's start with elaborating on Topping. I see this as the action of doing-to your partner, so if I'm Topping, I'll be the one holding the toys or what-have-you, or the one using my mouth or hands on my partner's body, specifically genitals...
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Wow. I definitely do not feel like I'm topping someone if I'm giving them oral! I can feel quite subby if I'm giving head, especially to a D type person, who is in charge of my rhythm, depth, technique, etc. And even if it's not a D/s situation, it feels more like service than Topping. Maybe it's all a matter of your mindset.

For me, Topping is more related to kink activities.

But I know many men who engage in gay sex think of the Top as the penetrator and the bottom as the one being penetrated.

As I have not being the wearer or receiver of a strap on (or any equivalent) I cannot comment on how I would experience that, but generally if I'm with a penis wielding man and that penis is in my vagina, I don't generally feel like something is being done "to" me, but that it is a cooperative endeavour.
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I have to say that while I don’t discount non-PIV sex, I do have a tendency (for myself) to think of the number of sexual partners I have had in terms of who I have had PIV with....but that is for a number of (probably very specific to me) reasons:

1. PIV is intimate and intense (for me) in a way that other types of sex is not. I feel much more vulnerable and exposed during PIV.

2. I have had some non-PIV sex with some guys that I am REALLY glad did not lead to PIV sex (for the above reasons of vulnerability, later broken trust, etc). For years, I have looked back on those experiences and thought to myself, “Hallelujah that I didn’t have sex with him!”

3. Just, in general, my experiences with PIV sex have been vastly different to my experiences with non-PIV sex. Yeah, it’s technically all sex, but for ME it isn’t at all the same and so I draw a distinction.
 
IMO giving/receiving head is foreplay, be it with a man or woman. And doesn't lead to PIV/toy sex all the time. JR has the same opinion. Angela did not & was extremely upset at JR & I 69ing one night. She thought when she asked us for no sex that we would just kiss/make out in bed together. She felt like we were quibbling semantics. And that any act involving genitals is having sex. And since we both had orgasms we had even moved into the forbidden area of "making love" without her.

Every time I recall this particular argument I feel like laughing because of the absurdity of her trying to impose rules onto me. I am so glad that she imploded everything between us.
 
MsEmotional said:
I have to say that while I don’t discount non-PIV sex, I do have a tendency (for myself) to think of the number of sexual partners I have had in terms of who I have had PIV with....but that is for a number of (probably very specific to me) reasons:

1. PIV is intimate and intense (for me) in a way that other types of sex is not. I feel much more vulnerable and exposed during PIV.

2. I have had some non-PIV sex with some guys that I am REALLY glad did not lead to PIV sex (for the above reasons of vulnerability, later broken trust, etc). For years, I have looked back on those experiences and thought to myself, “Hallelujah that I didn’t have sex with him!”

3. Just, in general, my experiences with PIV sex have been vastly different to my experiences with non-PIV sex. Yeah, it’s technically all sex, but for ME it isn’t at all the same and so I draw a distinction.
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SO interesting!

In my world oral, anal (which I don't do), and PIV are "sex" - but, if I really think about it, so is manual stimulation of a woman's genitals, but NOT manual (penile) stimulation of a man (i.e. a "hand job"), but finger-fucking a guy's anus would be. WTF?!?:eek: If I think about it even further then (anal, vaginal) penetration with a sex toy could also be "sex" (but might not be?)

I've been having this discussion for 25 years and still don't know where my own definition lies (and care less and less :p).
 
Isn't it weird how we are all the same species but define sex differently? LOL

I've mentioned this before but Mary gave me oral to completion once, then told me shortly thereafter that she had promised her husband we wouldn't have sex. I asked her why she gave me oral then. She said that wasn't sex. I'm pretty sure he would have disagreed.
 
Bluebaron said:
General question to gauge a consensus:

My wife had recently identified as BI and we are currently in a triad with third person.

We are all happy with this situation but recently we discussed that maybe I would take on another partner. (not something I currently want but as a general discussion).

However my wife views me having sex with another woman as different to her have sex with a woman. I view that as somewhat outdated opinion and that just because I have a penis and she doesn't, it shouldn't take away from the fact that when she sleeps with a woman it it basically sex minus penis.

Thoughts?
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Your logic appears to be intact. However we need to remind ourselves that everyone responds in their own unique way to intimate physical contact, and that IMO sex is never "just sex", no matter what sort of shields or provisions we attempt to construct. Keep communicating and moving forward. Much of this will work itself out through time and experience.
 
*pokes head in after a long, long absence because thread topic caught my eye*


My personal definition...

If it involves more than one person in direct contact with each other, and at least one person's genitals are getting stimulated with the goal of pleasure (and possible orgasm), it's sex.


So, masturbation *isn't* sex - even masturbation while another person is in the room watching you and cheering you on isn't sex. Even two people sitting side by side, each masturbating themselves, isn't sex.

However, giving someone else a handjob or oral *is* sex, no doubt about it. Regardless of whether or not it's mutual, and regardless of whether the naughty bits involved are innies or outies. :p
 
My definition

Sex: consensual genital or anal stimulation exchanged between people in the pursuit of pleasure.

This covers any act that stimulates someone's vulva/vagina, penis/testicles, or anus wether it's with a hand, mouth, or other genitals (aside from masterbation).
I believe that any of that should definitely be considered sex - otherwise lgbtq people are being excluded. Even as a straight cisgender woman I feel its really strange to count PIV as sex but not oral sex.
Could other things also be considered sex? Sure.
The definition given in the The Ethical Slut (book) includes a lot more.

I think your wife may have an outdated opinion on this and what she is suggesting is a double standard. I suggest trying to identify the underlying insecurities and/or concerns your wife has about you have sex with other women.
 
Interesting question.....

I do not penetrate my girlfriend with my penis but her other partner does and I asked her what she thought on this. She says that we both have sex with her but I don't fuck her and he does.

Sounds about right to me.
 
polyamy said:
Sex: consensual genital or anal stimulation exchanged between people in the pursuit of pleasure.
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In my opinion, this is a male oriented definition. As women, our erogenous zones are all over our bodies. My pussy being stimulated gives me sexual pleasure, but I also receive sexual pleasure from being touched on almost any area of my body. You name it, I have probably cum from being touched there. Of course, my breasts being touched are pretty much as likely to cause an orgasm as my clit. I'm sure I'm not alone in this.

Oddly, one exception (for me) is being anally penetrated. That alone does nothing at all for me, and is in fact, quite the opposite. It hurts, or, at best, feels neutral.

This covers any act that stimulates someone's vulva/vagina, penis/testicles, or anus, whether it's with a hand, mouth, or other genitals (aside from masturbation).

I believe that any of that should definitely be considered sex, otherwise LGBTQ people are being excluded. Even as a straight cisgender woman I feel it's really strange to count PIV as sex but not oral sex.

Could other things also be considered sex? Sure. The definition given in the The Ethical Slut (book) includes a lot more.

I think your wife may have an outdated opinion on this and what she is suggesting is a double standard. I suggest trying to identify the underlying insecurities and/or concerns your wife has about you having sex with other women.
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Of course, my breasts being touched are pretty much as likely to cause an orgasm as my clit. I'm sure I'm not alone in this.
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I've experienced an interesting variety of responses to breast play in my encounters. I've been with some women who were very sexually stimulated by breast play and could orgasm just from breast play (or breast play alone would take them just to the edge and then the slightest touch of the clit would put them over). And I've been with other women who did not experience any sexual stimulation at all from breast play - they might find it "sexy" but not sexually stimulating in itself. And then others in between - where breast play was sexually stimulating as a part of the foreplay but not to the point of orgasm (or near-orgasm).
 
Al99 said:
I've experienced an interesting variety of responses to breast play in my encounters. I've been with some women who were very sexually stimulated by breast play and could orgasm just from breast play (or breast play alone would take them just to the edge and then the slightest touch of the clit would put them over). And I've been with other women who did not experience any sexual stimulation at all from breast play - they might find it "sexy" but not sexually stimulating in itself. And then others in between - where breast play was sexually stimulating as a part of the foreplay but not to the point of orgasm (or near-orgasm).
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I can be all three depending on both the monthly cycle and/or my attraction to a partner/NRE/if they've climbed into my mind first.
 
Al99 said:
I've experienced an interesting variety of responses to breast play in my encounters. I've been with some women who were very sexually stimulated by breast play and could orgasm just from breast play (or breast play alone would take them just to the edge and then the slightest touch of the clit would put them over). And I've been with other women who did not experience any sexual stimulation at all from breast play - they might find it "sexy" but not sexually stimulating in itself. And then others in between - where breast play was sexually stimulating as a part of the foreplay but not to the point of orgasm (or near-orgasm).
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Of course, it varies. We are all different. I just think men forget about breast play. I blame porn, which is mostly based on what men find erotic. You almost never find porn portraying proper attention to the breasts these days. At most, there's a quick pinch of a nipple. Or there's the "titty fuck," which is fine, but again, that's more fun for the cock than the tits.
 
Quite interesting thoughts, I haven’t thought about this yet, but your flight of thoughts interested me. I can now reflect. Well, let's say that two are having sex, while someone else is watching nearby. Is this sex for a third? And let's also suppose that the third one does not just masturbate, but uses sex toys on himself or even on one of these two. Could this be sex? For example, I often get carried away with this and do not consider it masturbation, but I call it SEX directly, because sex toys are nothing terrible, they only cause additional pleasure. And I choose this pleasure from these guys link removed Reliable enough and they have a great choice, so there is something to think about
 
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