When Life Goals Change - Help with Advice / Comfort

Responding to some of your thoughts, and particularly Lioness's concerns, in bold font.

LittleSingingBat said:
Oh, yes. We've all acknowledged / avowed that the children are high priority, for many reasons. Thank you for seeing that. I am touched and honored.

I've got kids, totally get it.

A very good point. When Lioness told us that she had some concerns, Wolf asked if she might write them down for us. She did, and it was some of those concerns that made me wonder if they were just symptoms of an underlying issue with me being (a true equal) called spouse/mother and with a biological child.

Here are the concerns she voiced (and my response):
- when we discussed the relationship, she didn't realize the life goal of a biological baby was a "deal-breaker"
(I apologized that I did not make it more clear then, and that while I have always wanted a bio baby, I know for certain now that it is a deal breaker desire for me.)
Kind of reads like: Did not realize your life goals were THAT important.

- she worries about our ages, as certain aches and pains have cropped up recently that make her feel older, and that same age gap will make things difficult when we are older and the child may have a child of their own.
(I reminded her that we were waiting/delaying as part of a compromise to her because, when we very first talked, she wanted to put it off several more years than what we have finally agreed upon, and that we could move up the timeline if that is what she needs now.)
I don't understand how HER aging is a big deal, unless she is insecure that Wolf might lose commitment to her in favor of the younger family. Does she expect that she will raise your grandkids? That's an odd concern. Should not be her problem. Is, after all, YOUR BABY.

- she bemoans the current lack of "kid free" time, and postulates that having another in early 2018 would delay us in getting any more "kid free time" by at least five years, and also adds five more years before we could possibly do a family vacation where everyone can remember it.
(I volunteered that moving up the timeline could again help resolve this, and that it's okay with me if we do a family vacation before baby 4 can "remember" it-- and that we can do others later, too, if we plan well.)
This I DO understand. I am looking forward to my teenage sons being grown, as I've got some me-centered life goals that will be hard to try until they are independent. Starting the clock over doesn't appeal to me. However, this doesn't justify letting you live under false expectations and pretenses for all this time.

- she worries about how the parenting needs for baby 4 will be met, particularly late night sessions
(I was actually a little hurt by this one, as we had previously agreed that I was doing an excellent job, and that the night duties were one thing that I should do less of as my work is less forgiving of me having to miss for children that are "not mine," and because I make a morning commute that could be dangerous if I am sleep deprived --the latter of which was actually her point when we had the conversation--. Anyway, I told her that I have always been of the opinion that certain duties/responsibilities would shift appropriately for baby 4, including late nights, and that I hope to have the baby bassinet sleep or have me sleep in the nursery when necessary to help mitigate the stress of those late nights.)
So it's ok for you to make a lot of sacrifices for HER offspring, but not your own? That seems selfish of her. And frankly...unkind.

- she worried about falling in love with the baby and then losing it if I should ever need to leave later.
(I told her that, just as she promised me that I will always be part of her bio kids' lives, I too, promise that she will always be part of Baby 4's life, no matter what. I know that we will always work hard to take care of not only each other, but the children, just as we have already promised each other.)
But it's ok for your love of her kids to hold you hostage to the situation, under terms of her choosing. OK to hurt you, not ok to hurt her...I appreciate her honesty, but is she aware of how these things sound?

- she said that she recognizes that it's "an awful Catch 22:" on one hand we want to have Baby 4 soon (our ages) but, on the other hand, she doesn't want to rush into things AND doesn't want to have kids too close together
(I can respect this, of course. I don't want to rush into it either. However, I told her that, if we are going to have Baby 4, we will simply have to decide which of these risks we'd rather face. Should we risk babies that are "too close" together and the possibility that we might someday part ways, or should we wait longer and risk that we will all be "too old" later on? I told her that we should weigh the pros and cons of each.)
How close is too close? I'd say the sooner the better. The sooner you do this, if it's going to happen, the sooner you reach certain milestones such as no more daycare cost, no more diapers, etc. and kids closer in age should bond reasonably well.

A note here-- she has not yet responded to my counterpoints. : /



I like your idea here. We have had conversations about this in the past, but I like the addition of putting it down on paper and, particularly, of ranking them.



Reading that, I realize that I am very grateful to you for saying so. I think I felt that the (possible) arrangement was unfair, but wasn't giving myself enough credit, or was telling myself, "Yeah, but life isn't fair, suck it up." Hearing someone else say it validated it in a way I didn't realize I needed, so thank you.
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You are welcome. It is not selfish of you to make yourself a priority. When people criticize the pitfalls of "unicorn hunters" they talk a lot about couple privilege, and it seems to me that she is exercising quite a bit of that. It's why many people prefer not to be considered a secondary, especially if they wish to have solid commitments and children (as opposed to a solo poly who is content to keep entanglements loose...easier probably to be a secondary partner, then.) And the expectation was dangled before you that you would be an equal, but she is not treating you as one now.

I feel for you, I think that this is a sad situation. I think that you are a sweet and accommodating person and she is either a strong willed and overbearing personality, or a conniving and manipulative one...I think/hope it is the first. Although it's entirely possible that her feelings did change over time (we grow as people and what we want in life changes)...and by the time she had these concerns, she may have felt if she said so to you, she'd drive you away (possible) and they have likely come to rely on you a lot, and her kids probably love you...so she was trying to ride along under the radar and hope she'd dodge the baby bullet. Like you'd forget about it, or if she made you wait long enough, you'd give up on it. But it simply is neither fair nor respectful to string a person along to get what you want, even if you can justify that you had good intentions.

I'm sorry. *hugs* I hope that she can come to a place of respect for your life choices, whatever they needs must be, to have Wolf's baby and take the chances that come with that, or to let you go so that you can have the life you want.
 
Spork said:
It is not selfish of you to make yourself a priority.
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THIS is one of the things I struggle with the most. I try very hard not to be selfish, so when I prioritize anything me-related, I worry that maybe I'm just being selfish.

Spork said:
And the expectation was dangled before you that you would be an equal, but she is not treating you as one now.
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I think that's a big part of what I'm struggling with. Over and over she says "we want you to be an equal," but I'm getting conflicting words and actions.

Spork said:
I think that you are a sweet and accommodating person and she is either a strong willed and overbearing personality, or a conniving and manipulative one...I think/hope it is the first.
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Thank you, and I definitely think it's the former for her. I love Lioness, and when her gaze/thoughts are on a person or cause, she's the most generous, thoughtful, dedicated, motivated, and kind person I know. However, if you're in her blinders (or worse, in her way) she can be a steamroller. O_O

*hugs* Thank you for your time, energy, and very thoughtful responses. You've been a huge help and a great comfort! Especially with your responses to her concerns. SO many of your thoughts were things I thought too, like "How come it's okay for me to (possibly) lose these three kids, but it's inconceivable for her to risk losing mine?" and "I was doing everything that was asked of me (and more) and now you're telling me that it wasn't enough? That I should have been doing the thing you specifically told me I didn't have to do? (staying up / getting up late at night with the babies). Where's the fairness in that?!"

It also reassures me that I wasn't entirely wrong when I thought "some of these concerns seem kind of...forced or superficial" and went searching for the root cause. (So I asked her directly if she might have a desire to be the sole wife and mother in the relationship.)

So, now it seems to be a matter of telling Wolf and Lioness I'd like us all to take the time to write down and prioritize our Life Goals, and for us to set a date to discuss them. Then we'll use that meeting to find out whether or not we are long-term compatible, or it has just been a good thing that wasn't meant to last.

(For what it's worth, I've told Wolf and Lioness that I don't regret a day with them and the kids. Lovers or not, they are my friends and I do love their kids, so, when they were struggling during "the dark times," I'm glad I was able to help. I just need to know if it was a phase and they've outgrown the need for me, or if we really are building the forever family we dreamed of.)

Thank you for all your help, everyone. Please feel free to keep tossing out thoughts and ideas, and I'll come back and let you guys know how everything works out! <3
 
Re (from LittleSingingBat):
"I would love to do counseling, but am unsure how to find poly-positive counselors?"
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One of these might help ...

If none of the above work, but you can at least find a counselor with an open mind, you could ask them to read, "What Psychology Professionals Should Know about Polyamory," a book by Geri Weitzman, Ph.D., Joy Davidson, Ph.D., and Robert A. Phillips, Jr., Ph.D.

I am hoping that the three of you can work things out and move forward with your original plans.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
LittleSingingBat said:
If I stay where I am (shared living) and Lioness does not want Baby 4, I won't be allowed to have the baby. I have considered whether or not I'd be willing to raise Wolf's child in another household, but Wolf says that he wouldn't be happy with such an arrangement, that it would break his heart not to live with the child and me.
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My question to Wolf, if I were you, is why is it not okay to break his heart, but okay to break yours?

Also, look at what you said up there - you wouldn't be "allowed" to have his baby. Really? Do you feel ccomfortable giving other people that kind of power over you, to control your life?
 
nycindie said:
My question to Wolf, if I were you, is why is it not okay to break his heart, but okay to break yours?
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It would break my heart not to be with him, too (or for *him* to have our child without me, if our positions were reversed), so I understand what he means. Even if not, I don't think I could ask someone I love to hurt just so that I could have what I want. (And I don't think he means to make it a case of being okay to break my heart, but not okay to break his.)

nycindie said:
Also, look at what you said up there - you wouldn't be "allowed" to have his baby. Really? Do you feel comfortable giving other people that kind of power over you, to control your life?
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You're right; that's another reason I'm struggling with this so much. I don't like feeling like I don't have agency or choice in my future, and right now it feels like my (and Wolf's) happiness hinges on Lioness's decision.

And thank you, Kevin, for those resouces. I think I might have found a couple of avenues to pursue in there!
 
Well, why not talk to Wolf about it?

As in, you and wolf agree, between yourselves, how you will continue your dyad relationship (just the two of you) with lioness as metamor, if lioness says she no longer wants a triad.

That sounds more assertive than 'let's all write out our life goals, and if they're not compatible, I'll quietly and meekly slink out the back door'.

I'd be doing this, because I don't want anyone making decisions for me:

Work out first preference of how this moves forward. It sounds like your first preference is what you've already agreed to. But perhaps, if that's what you all want, then you want it with more boundaries in place / more clear communication, so this doesn't happen again? And perhaps you only agree to move forward as a triad if you ARE all equal, not this 'we are working towards you being equal' thing. Someone on here suggested lion and wolf divorce and the three of you form some sort of LLC, like a legal arrangement with a ceremony for the three of you. That sounds like a first option. It sounds like moving forward with you as just the girlfriend is NOT an option, because it allows lioness to treat you like this.

Then, work out second option, which is what happens if lioness doesn't agree to be part of option 1. Option 2 is you and wolf together, and you guys work out how that will look. You and wolf agree to this, so if lioness says no to option 1, YOU AND WOLF tell her, "this is what WE are doing then'.

It would be really weird if wolf didn't agree to any kind of option 2 scenario. But I'd be putting the options on the table like this:

I am willing to:

First preference: be in an equal triad with the three of us. The triad needs more clearly articulated agreements. I need to be RESPECTED as equal. We are equal in terms of legal arrangements, parenting, etc.

Second preference: I am willing to be in partnership with wolf as co-primary, with lioness as my metamor.

I am not willing to:
Continue in triad as less than equal
Be in dyad with wolf as his secondary

UNLESS of course you are willing for that.

Therefore, third preference is to end the relationship. Not put yourself back into less than equal status. That ship has sailed as you've seen the mess it can put you in.

Then YOU (not lioness) decide when you need to talk by. And tell her. I'd make it sooner, not later. Then YOU decide how to manage your self care in that time...you don't have to keep taking care of this kids and being happy families in that time. That's not fair to expect from you.

Then if lioness either doesn't agree to option 1 or won't talk about it by the date you've set, YOU decide that option 1 is not feasible and move into option 2.

That way, YOU are deciding the timeframe. NOT lioness. And YOU decide how long you are willing to wait before you either get a clear answer, or move on. And you decide how to care for yourself in the meantime. And you and wolf decide together how a healthy relationship between you both would look like.

This puts you back in control of your life.
 
Glad to hear the resources were helpful.
 
Update

Well, we had a talk last night. It was impromptu and late, so it probably needs to be taken with a grain of salt, but the end result doesn't give me much hope.

I said before that Wolf, Lioness, and I were all in a poly triangle, but in different levels/stages. Let me clarify that now by saying that she and he were married, he and I clearly have a very strong relationship, and that she and I were excellent friends and budding lovers.

And this was the case when we had our talks of a forever family and planned our timeline for baby 4.

What Lioness revealed last night is that she does not want to have a baby with me before she feels like the bond between her and I is as strong as the one between her and Wolf and between Wolf and me. An "equilateral triangle," she called it.

In other words, she loves me enough to ask for my forever, but not enough to have a baby with me yet. And that worries me. That doesn't feel right or fair. I don't think I'm comfortable with Lioness getting to hold all the cards like that-- with dangling a possibility in front of me that she can withdraw at any time...like she has changed the parameters for having Baby 4 once already.

We were happy enough before (ecstatic, really), and I felt like our love was growing each day. I was confident that she and I would continue to build a deep love, and that, even if she and I never "fell in" love, the relationship that we had would fulfilling/secure enough that I would be satisfied.

But now? Now I don't even know if I want to try to "fall in love."

1) I don't think love is something you can force that way.
2) I hate the concept of having to "prove" or make Lioness feel loved enough for her to "grant" my wishes.

Also, the inequality of the situation is staggering. How was it okay to promise me one thing and then add more stipulations now? How come it was okay for her to expect me to co-parent her bio kids when the love isn't "enough" for her to do the same? And it doesn't seem fair that she gets to be the judge and final decision maker in this.

I understand not wanting to raise the children of someone you aren't "in love" with, and, though it hurts, I will respect that. I just wish she'd told me that's how she felt from the very beginning, instead of waiting until now.
 
LittleSingingBat said:
What Lioness revealed last night is that she does not want to have a baby with me before she feels like the bond between her and I is as strong as the one between her and Wolf and between Wolf and me. An "equilateral triangle," she called it. ...
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First, you said you've done successfully research on poly together before. Sure you've read information on unicorn hunting. Can you remind her that it's very unrealistic to expect all relationships to be the same?

Second, she doesn't have to view it as having a baby with you. It could be your child welcomed in her (and yours) home.
That doesn't feel right or fair. I don't think I'm comfortable with Lioness getting to hold all the cards like that-- with dangling a possibility in front of me that she can withdraw at any time...like she has changed the parameters for having Baby 4 once already.
...
Also, the inequality of the situation is staggering. How was it okay to promise me one thing and then add more stipulations now? How come it was okay for her to expect me to co-parent her bio kids when the love isn't "enough" for her to do the same? And it doesn't seem fair that she gets to be the judge and final decision maker in this.
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Exactly.
Sadly, for a deal of three, it's enough for one of the voices to break the deal.
However, that doesn't mean it should all go her way. There will be consequences.
You walking away and not taking parenting responsibility for her kids any more.
Wolfs broken heart... what will be his change of behaviour? We don't hear his voice very much here. I get it would be undesired to walk away from the family even if he sees his wives behaviour as unfair. But will he trust her again?
Will he stay with you and perhaps split his time equally between two families (necessarily taking away resources, although that is the exact thing she's trying to avoid)?
She wants what she wants, but she should be made aware that there will be consequences to her decision.

Is there no other arrangement acceptable for her? Even if she doesn't want to parent your child, could you and Wolf still have it? Can she stay in the role of "auntie" who doesn't wake up at night, but occasionally cooks for all four?
 
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Tinwen said:
First, you said you've done successfully research on poly together before. Sure you've read information on unicorn hunting. Can you remind her that it's very unrealistic to expect all relationships to be the same?
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I had heard the term "unicorn hunter" before, but have re-familiarized myself with it now. It is startling how accurate the term sounds. I intend to remind her that it is, as you said, unrealistic to expect all relationships to be the same (although I feel that she will then say, "Well, I am not interested if I cannot have an equal relationship with you both.")

Tinwen said:
Second, she doesn't have to view it as having a baby with you. It could be your child welcomed in her (and yours) home.
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Baby 4 has always been phrased in the lens of "our" baby-- it may be the only reason she was willing to consider it at all. She has since made it clear that she is not interested in sharing a home/resources with a child that she does not consider "hers," and she won't consider having a child with me until she and I are "in love" to the same degree that she and Wolf and Wolf and I are.

Lioness is aware that there are consequences. She said last night that she is sorry for "breaking our hearts," and that she doesn't "want to be the bad guy." It's just unfortunate that it looks like, more and more, that the ideals she's expecting are unrealistic / unattainable.

Tinwen said:
Is there no other arrangement acceptable for her? Even if she doesn't want to parent your child, could you and Wolf still have it? Can she stay in the role of "auntie" who doesn't wake up at night, but occasionally cooks for all four?
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I wish that were the case, but no. She has made it clear that if she and I are not "equally in love" as the other aspects of the triangle, then she does not want another baby in the home.

For what it's worth-- I would be all right with living together / sharing resources / co-parenting even if we are only partners/friends/metamors. Heck, that's what I've been doing for nearly a year. But it is, apparently, not enough for Lioness.
 
I like Tinwen's post.

And I have to say...there are some here that I feel are coming from the voices of stronger, more aggressive personalities. Those who say that you should negotiate with Wolf, cut Lioness's voice out of the deal, and be a dyad with Wolf doing whatever THEY decide...I do not think that's a realistic answer.

Before anyone gets defensive, I'm not saying it's a WRONG answer, just that it's not taking into consideration the humans in this cast of characters. OP is not a Lioness. She is a Little Singing Bat. And that is ok...but let us not ask her to roar. Maybe roaring is not her thing.

Fact is, Lioness will be part of the Wolf picture for a very long time. They have a bunch of kids to get raised together that they created together. So if LSB decides to say, "You know what, screw you, Lioness, trying to dictate for Wolf and me. We want this, and we're doing it with or without your blessing!" then she's got to deal with the hostility of someone who is NOT going away. That is not an auspicious start to a new family unit. I don't see it as a feasible answer, or one that Lioness would accept diplomatically. Lioness seems to NEED to hold this power. LSB NEEDS to be secure and equal. Wolf is probably going to be hurt, but I think the kindest thing for everyone if a unanimous agreement cannot be reached, is for LSB to move on (try to nurture a friendship for future interactions) and do her family outside of this household with a new partner.

Lioness and Wolf need to understand some non-negotiable facts about LSB.
- Need to be primary. If co-primary "equal" status is not possible now, not willing to wait and hope it happens one day. There is no treating this like a carrot, honestly if the work that you've put in so far, Bat, is not enough to deserve equal treatment, then nothing ever will be.

- Need to have a biological baby. Not willing to "wait and see" for another however many years, and should not be expected to. Because if you need to find a new partner and create a new bond, then THAT will take time...optimally at least a few years. They are asking you to "wait and see" and gamble your life and happiness on the whims of someone who is already poisoning the well a bit, by making you feel taken advantage of.

Not cool.

- The only alternative in between honoring the original agreement, and LSB moving on to find a new partnership, that I can see is this:

LSB moves into her own place nearby, continues relationship with Wolf, has baby with Wolf. Relationships continue but LSB does not get taken advantage of anymore for care of Lioness's household and children. Only has to parent her OWN baby. Maybe LSB forms new partnership(s) and maybe not. Instead of being one nuclear household family unit, parties now are "extended family"...like aunties...and stay involved in each other's lives with Wolf as hinge in the V.

This is basically like what others have suggested...

However. I do not propose that LSB stand up to Lioness and do this in defiance of her wishes, because there would be a lot of tension, and I have suspicions that this arrangement would be lacking in elements that LSB needs for her happiness, too.

So unfortunately I do see it coming down to Lioness removing her roadblocks to the triad going forward, or LSB making her own way outside of the group. Again...it is sad. I think, honestly, that Lioness is being a bit foolish and ruining a good thing. Yeah, four small kids is a lot. But there are already three of 'em. A fourth, to keep Adult #3 in the picture happy and contributing to the unit, as opposed to leaving...I don't feel she is weighing the risks and rewards very well.

EDIT: Sorry for the grammar, the pronoun shifts, it's early yet and I'm still working on coffee. I regret nothing.
 
Wow. Yes. This. This exactly.

You are so right. I am not a lioness; I don't roar for what I need (although I sometimes wish I did, and am practicing my self-advocacy to improve my skills!)

I cannot even imagine trying to adversarially wrangle what I want/need from this particular relationship-- because yes, they are devoted to each other and committed to raising their children, so I would always have to interact with Lioness, and so would the kids. I won't make a toxic environment for the children just to get what I want.

Spork said:
Lioness and Wolf need to understand some non-negotiable facts about LSB.
- Need to be primary. If co-primary "equal" status is not possible now, not willing to wait and hope it happens one day. There is no treating this like a carrot, honestly if the work that you've put in so far, Bat, is not enough to deserve equal treatment, then nothing ever will be.

- Need to have a biological baby. Not willing to "wait and see" for another however many years, and should not be expected to. Because if you need to find a new partner and create a new bond, then THAT will take time...optimally at least a few years. They are asking you to "wait and see" and gamble your life and happiness on the whims of someone who is already poisoning the well a bit by making you feel taken advantage of.
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SO much this. Oh, I cannot thank you enough. THAT is what I've been trying to say, the words that I've been scrambling to put together-- like when you can think of a word but you can't think of the word. That's it. That's what I need. Bless you for helping me clarify it in my own head, so I can tell them.

Spork said:
LSB moves into her own place nearby, continues relationship with Wolf, has baby with Wolf. Relationships continue but LSB does not get taken advantage of anymore for care of Lioness's household and children. Only has to parent her OWN baby. Maybe LSB forms new partnership(s) and maybe not. Instead of being one nuclear household family unit, parties now are "extended family"...like aunties...and stay involved in each other's lives with Wolf as hinge in the V.

This is basically like what others have suggested...
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It has been suggested, and while I would consider it as a compromise, I do not think it would appeal to Wolf (let alone to Lioness.)

Spork said:
Yeah, four small kids is a lot. But there are already three of 'em. A fourth, to keep Adult #3 in the picture happy and contributing to the unit, as opposed to leaving...I don't feel she is weighing the risks and rewards very well.
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And YES! I feel like Lioness is being foolishly unyielding/uncompromising/poorly weighing the risks and rewards and is throwing away a good thing.

Thank you SO much for your reply. (I didn't even mind the pre-coffee nature.) It was just what I needed. Thank you.
 
I'm glad my ramblings are helpful. And I hope that whatever happens, you can have a positive relationship with the family you have come to love, going forward (whether as the triad, or even if you go a different direction.) And I hope your future is bright and warm and full of joy.

I also hope that whatever happens, one day we see you come back here and share baby pictures. I love baby pictures! :D

Keep honoring your own voice and your needs. Insisting on your every wish and whim might be selfish, but insisting on the big things that make or break your quality of life is NOT. Don't let anyone ever tell you that it is. You don't have to roar, but don't let the bigger and louder people in your life make you feel small and silent, either.
 
LittleSingingBat said:
She has since made it clear that she is not interested in sharing a home/resources with a child that she does not consider "hers," and she won't consider having a child with me until she and I are "in love" to the same degree that she and Wolf and Wolf and I are.
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So hypocritical :( Jealous and unwilling to work with it. I am sorry :(

edit: Spork summarized it all perfectly. But please, send her the baby pictures in pm :D
 
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Tinwen said:
So hypocritical :( Jealous and unwilling to work with it. I am sorry :(
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Thank you. :(

I am still reeling from the "it's okay for you but not for me" aspect.

That shock and hurt is making it very hard for me to even try to imagine working on our relationship more. Dates and intimacy with Lioness don't really appeal to me right now, you know?

What I'm trying to figure out is if that's just my initial reaction, or it this is going to be a bigger hurdle for us-- maybe even an insurmountable one.

Edit to respond to your edit, lol:
Tinwen said:
edit: Spork summarized it all perfectly. But please, send her the baby pictures in pm :D
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That made me laugh. Of course. Not everyone likes babies! XD
 
My Message to Lioness (and Wolf)

In our family unit, we have found a combination of written word (email) and in-person family meetings to be the best form of communication for us. We might bring up a topic in person, ruminate on it (we liken it to a "rock tumbler" in our heads), and then email later, once we've sorted our thoughts. Or, sometimes we have thoughts that we send by email first and then touch base on later, in person.

Here is the message I am sending to Lioness and Wolf today:

Dear Loves,

This letter is mostly to Lioness, but also has points relevant to Wolf.

Poly 101: It is a fine hope but an unrealistic expectation to demand that each bond of a triangular relationship be equal. People are different and they are going to relate to each other differently. I have never loved anyone like I love Wolf. I have never loved anyone like I love Lioness either.

And, Lioness, while I love you differently than I love Wolf, the important facts are:

You are loved. You are cherished. You are as "safe" as any of us can be. You know me, you say you love me, and you have seen just how much I love you and what I am willing to do for you and this family. While our love is different, I do not love Wolf any "more" than you and I am no more devoted to his happiness than I am to yours.

I pieced this together today: even if you and I never "fall in love," if something were to happen to Wolf, I am already at a point where I would stay with you, loving you as I do right now (although, of course, always hoping to grow that love). And, if something happened to Wolf and we had been working together as a family and you fell in love with someone else, I would support you in that-- because I want you to be happy.

In ways, I think that such a love may even be more powerful than the other kind. My love for you isn't based on infatuation, hormones, or fickle and possibly fleeting feelings. My love for you is based on admiration for the woman you are, respect for your Life Goals, and an abiding desire for your happiness.

The truth is that we may never have the same kind of love for each other that we have for Wolf. Does that also mean we may never have Baby 4? You are asking me to bind my forever to this family, and I want to-- but my forever comes with a biological baby. Either you love me and believe in Us enough for that forever, or you don't.

And, after experiencing first-hand how much I work and do, I have to ask myself, if you aren't happy now, what more can I do?

---

I feel that there is nothing wrong with co-parenting, even as "just" metamors-- obviously-- as I've been doing just that for nearly a year. But if you cannot handle that kind of arrangement, that is a valid stance too.

What is not acceptable is for me to be expected to wait, patiently and still contributing as a full life partner while unsure of if or when I will ever be allowed to pursue one of my Life Goals.

I had the requirements of (trying for) this goal changed on me, and I am upset and wounded. I'm not asking you to change your mind and let us proceed regardless, but I do expect that you recognize how I am feeling, and to realize that this impacts my ability to commit to another promise of a possible future. I was let down before and I have no guarantee that I won't be let down again.

---

We have discussed writing down our Life Goals and then sharing them. Along those lines, you both need to know these non-negotiables about me:

- I have a need to be an equal partner. Right now, (I perceive) the odds as stacked against me. You two are legally married. You two have children and are committed to raising them together. This means that if anyone is out of this relationship, for whatever reason, it is most likely to be me. We are not in an equal relationship in that regard. Tell me if I am wrong here, but I don't think I am.

So, one of the things that would bring me comfort and a feeling of security would be for you two to be the ones who (more often) take the risks and leaps of faith, because I already stand to lose so much by being here. I have made many changes and sacrifices to bring my life into line with yours; I don't feel it is asking too much for you to show me a willingness to do the same.

- I have a need to have a biological baby. (You have both felt the same need, so I am not open to criticism on, nor do I feel a need to justify this desire.) I am not willing to "wait and see" for an undetermined time before having a child, and it isn't right for me to be expected to; if I need to find a new partner and create a new relationship, then that, too, will take time, and, as you've pointed out, none of us are getting any younger.

I don't know what this means moving forward. I don't feel comfortable saying "well, just trust me (like I trusted you) and let us have this baby; it'll work out, you'll see." I know how ridiculous that is. But it is equally ridiculous to expect me to allow my happiness to hinge on whether or not you feel we love each other "enough."

So that leaves us at a stalemate. I have put myself out there and gone on hopes, promises, and possibilities for a long time now. I do not think I am capable of doing it for much longer.

I need more than a "maybe." I need a concrete goal point to set my sights on.

You might scoff, but I know this to be a truth about myself. Limbo is my bane; it literally destroys me, like the time I worked in medical records (when I got migraines, grape-fruit sized ovarian cysts, developed TMJ disorder, and experienced hair loss.) But, if you give a "carrot" to go for, I will work hard-- maybe harder than anyone else-- to reach that goal.

It doesn't have to be now. It doesn't have to be tomorrow. But if you can give me that goal point on Baby 4, I promise, I'll continue to be "all in" on this relationship, and, when we meet that goal, I will still be working on the goal of "forever family," with you.

love,
LSB
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I tried to say what was in my head and heart, guided by your excellent advice. I hope I've done a good job, and I hope she hears me and recognizes the wonderful thing we have, and is as willing to work for it as I am.
 
I hope so too, Bat. And that was very brave, and also stated in a very respectful way. I hope that Lioness is able to recognize what she stands to lose here, and is willing to calm her fears and take a chance.

If she is solid on NOT wanting this future, then I hope she is able to respect you enough to let you go with grace, so that you can pursue the life you need.
 
Thank you, Spork. <3

I hope those things too.
 
I just wonder if Lioness is saying that, if you had had a child from a pevious relationship she never would have wanted you for family? You have known each other a long time and it seems so strange to me that she has put herself in a corner like this.

You have mentioned how well you all communicate but this seems potentially hard to remain calm about on both sides. Have you ever looked into Non-Violent Communication techniques? They can de- escalate conflict. An outside mediator, a friend or counselor, could really help as well.

Leetah
 
Leetah said:
I just wonder if Lioness is saying that, if you had had a child from a pevious relationship she never would have wanted you for family?
Click to expand...

That... is a very good question, and a point I should definitely bring up.

I'll also look into the non-violent communication, and I'm going to reach out to a counselor too.
 
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