Why Am I dragging my feet?

[GalaGirl]

So... most of the time at his place you are alone with him. You see each other every weekend and make an effort to share at least part of the holidays. You communicate daily via texts and chat on the computer at night.

Sounds like ample opportunities for authentic communication.

You would like to hear what you mean to him.
You would like to hear that he agrees you both have outgrown the primary-secondary open model and are now moving more toward co-pimary model.

You do not take advantage of the opportunities to talk about/clarify these things with him because...?

When we are at my bf's house, there are many times when we are alone since his wife also has a bf and spends time there. When she stays home (and her bf is there as well) we do hang out in separate areas of the house but she is used to having both her men available to her at all times and doesn't hesitate to interrupt or request something although she apologizes profusely as she does it.

You blame the wife for your BF's behavior? I mean, she can ask whatever. But he could set a personal boundary of “when I'm here at home with GF, this is my date time. Shy of emergency, please write your request down on the fridge pad. I will attend to it after my date time is over.”

What is it that she is interrupting with? "Honey, I'm sorry. Could you open this jar for me?" or "I'm sorry... But someone ran over the dog in the street! Help!" You do not say. But it is his job to articulate what is "emergency worthy" and what is not and should go on the fridge pad. That's all their stuff.

If you do not like their stuff leaking on to you? You could make him/her aware. And/or you could choose to make it a non-issue by not scheduling time at his house when she is there with her BF. Move it to your place, a neutral place, or postpone date till some other week when she is gone if it has to be at his place.

I have always felt 'lesser' , yes, and believed that I just had to accept it.

What do you think / do that makes you feel devalued?
What behavior does BF do that devalues you?

Whenever I try to express to him how her behavior makes me feel he immediately jumps to defend her.

Defend HER or "explaining away" his own lack of keeping boundaries? Could you be willing to give an example conversation? With examples of the behavior she is doing that devalues you?

I am having trouble trying to discern if I am having trouble with the 'wife' because she's his wife? or because her behavior is really out of line?

It is possible there's a problem with her behavior.

I wonder if she's also handy to dump it all on because it's easier than examining his part in it? Or yours? Or maybe he uses a communication style that shifts responsibility for his choices away from him?

"I cannot do that because of my wife." (blaming her for his choices)

rather than

"No, thanks. I do not care to do that." (owning his own choices.)

It is hard to give feedback without examples though.

I do actually feel like I am the one who carries the relationship, I guess my fear is that if I don't keep making all the moves then he will do nothing.

Is that how you devalue you? By taking on more than your fair share of the work?

And you stepping back to a fair share would be horrible because....

SCENE A

• You might see that he's happy for you to carry most of the load and he is not keen on fair share load?
• And seeing this might give you opportunity to leave such a skewed dynamic and not feel run down any more?

This is bad how?

SCENE B

• You create a vacuum and he steps up to the plate.
• And you see you were wrong about him doing nothing.
• The load is now shared fairly and you do not feel so run down any more.

This is bad how? ​

I am learning to speak up but don't really feel like I have a voice, or a say although he does always encourage me to tell him how I'm feeling.

Is that how you devalue you? By thinking you don't have a voice even when he wants to hear what you think and feel?

He cannot be a mind reader. You have to actually ASK for him to consider changing a behavior.

I hope it hasn't run it's course but I am definitely feeling unappreciated.

What behaviors would you like him to do to demonstrate his appreciation of you and what you bring to the table?

Have you asked him if he is willing to do these behaviors?

Galagirl

 

[kdt26417]

Hi stillfiguringthingsout,

I think I, for one, am getting a better idea of what's making you feel weird toward your boyfriend, and making you drag your feet. His wife is being very polite about doing impolite things ... "Oh, sorry about busting in on your sexual encounter; honey, do you think you could take out the garbage right now?" ... and he is being very cooperative with his wife ... "Oh yes of course dear" ... and you're being very compliant about the whole thing ... "Oh no need to apologize, you can bust in on my sexual encounters anytime, after all he's your husband ..."

I guess everyone's a little guilty for enabling that dysfunctional dynamic. His wife wouldn't do it if he put his foot down. He might put his foot down if you put your foot down. In any case, I just think you're tired of being put in that kind of awkward position, especially with all the effort you have to put forth to see your boyfriend. And then to suspect/know that he wouldn't put forth the same effort to see you ... well of course that's going to get old after four years.

Would it help to have a sit-down with your boyfriend and his wife? to let your feelings be known that you're not very important to either of them? You'd want to put it diplomatically of course ... but the risk is, what if they say, "Yeah you're not very important to us; goodbye!" Is it possible that's what you're afraid of, and that's why you wouldn't want to talk to them about it?

Or, are you thinking you would indeed like to talk to them about it? Are you willing to take that chance? Is that the reason your subconscious is sending you these "strange" messages?

I merely ask the questions ... The answers are up to you.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[stillfiguringthingsout]

So... most of the time at his place you are alone with him. You see each other every weekend and make an effort to share at least part of the holidays. You communicate daily via texts and chat on the computer at night.

Sounds like ample opportunities for authentic communication.

You would like to hear what you mean to him.
You would like to hear that he agrees you both have outgrown the primary-secondary open model and are now moving more toward co-pimary model.

You do not take advantage of the opportunities to talk about/clarify these things with him because...?



You blame the wife for your BF's behavior? I mean, she can ask whatever. But he could set a personal boundary of “when I'm here at home with GF, this is my date time. Shy of emergency, please write your request down on the fridge pad. I will attend to it after my date time is over.”

What is it that she is interrupting with? "Honey, I'm sorry. Could you open this jar for me?" or "I'm sorry... But someone ran over the dog in the street! Help!" You do not say. But it is his job to articulate what is "emergency worthy" and what is not and should go on the fridge pad. That's all their stuff.

If you do not like their stuff leaking on to you? You could make him/her aware. And/or you could choose to make it a non-issue by not scheduling time at his house when she is there with her BF. Move it to your place, a neutral place, or postpone date till some other week when she is gone if it has to be at his place.


What do you think / do that makes you feel devalued?
What behavior does BF do that devalues you?



Defend HER or "explaining away" his own lack of keeping boundaries? Could you be willing to give an example conversation? With examples of the behavior she is doing that devalues you?



It is possible there's a problem with her behavior.

I wonder if she's also handy to dump it all on because it's easier than examining his part in it? Or yours? Or maybe he uses a communication style that shifts responsibility for his choices away from him?

"I cannot do that because of my wife." (blaming her for his choices)

rather than

"No, thanks. I do not care to do that." (owning his own choices.)

It is hard to give feedback without examples though.



Is that how you devalue you? By taking on more than your fair share of the work?

And you stepping back to a fair share would be horrible because....

SCENE A

• You might see that he's happy for you to carry most of the load and he is not keen on fair share load?
• And seeing this might give you opportunity to leave such a skewed dynamic and not feel run down any more?

This is bad how?

SCENE B

• You create a vacuum and he steps up to the plate.
• And you see you were wrong about him doing nothing.
• The load is now shared fairly and you do not feel so run down any more.

This is bad how? ​

Is that how you devalue you? By thinking you don't have a voice even when he wants to hear what you think and feel?

He cannot be a mind reader. You have to actually ASK for him to consider changing a behavior.



What behaviors would you like him to do to demonstrate his appreciation of you and what you bring to the table?

Have you asked him if he is willing to do these behaviors?

Galagirl

Galagirl, you are good! As I read your response I'm nodding the whole time. You are wonderfully articulate and seem to be able to easily put your feelings into words. I have a really hard time doing that, hell I have trouble recognizing what I'm feeling, it seems to take me a long time to 'decipher' them and perhaps I find it easier to accept and/or ignore them than to 'rock the boat' I am working on this, and have come a long way because of my relationship with my boyfriend, Joseph.

I will try to clarify as much as I can without rambling

You're right, we do have ample opportunity for authentic communication. Most of the time though we chat about our days, looking forward to seeing each other...that kind of thing. I try not to bring up anything that is 'sensitive' to me or us since texting is such a cold way to communicate and there can be so much misunderstanding because we can't see or hear each other. But then what happens is that I hesitate to bring up any negative feelings I have when I'm with Joseph because we have so little time together and I don't want to 'waste' it in an emotionally draining discussion. I know---you'll say authentic communication is not wasting time, and you're right. But I'm really afraid to start such a conversation for several reasons: 1) I have trouble articulating what I'm feeling 2) in the past when I have brought something up my boyfriend (who is extremely articulate) seems to be able to turn my feelings around on me and I end up feeling like an idiot.

When something happens while we're together during the weekend I don't often speak up about it right away...I need a day or two to 'process' things...but when I do bring it up during our nightly chats I know that this annoys Joseph as he would prefer to nip it in the bud.

When I was at his place a few months ago, his wife and I were chatting about dealing with conflict with our boyfriends...she likes to deal with it immediately. I said that I need a few days to think about it and then I bring it up, usually via our nightly chats. To this she replied, "Oh I know, Joseph hates when you do that..."

He frequently tells me that he loves me, and is very affectionate with me, both when we're alone and when his wife is home more so now than in the beginning of our relationship.

We've never actually labelled our relationship as secondary or primary. I don't really like to label anything, how would I even begin such a conversation...?

While I was reading your response I realized that I DO blame Joseph, as far as I know he has no boundaries with his wife, at least none that I can see. It is out of the goodness of her heart that I even have the 'alone' time with him that I do have, as long as it is convenient for her.

In the beginning of our relationship I asked him what would happen if they decided to 'close' their marriage, if his wife broke up with her boyfriend? He replied that I would be on the outside, looking in...that there would be no hesitation to say good bye to me. She was his wife after all.

A few months later the four if us (me, Joseph, his wife and her boyfriend) were at a party, enjoying ourselves, drinking and generally having a good time. That night Joseph confided in me that he wished that the boyfriend wasn't around, that I wasn't around so that he and his wife could resume their life together. Now, he was very inebriated and didn't remember anything the next day. But I sure did. When I brought it up he said they were just the ramblings of a drunk man but I believe he spoke his own truth that night. I suggested that maybe he needed to talk to his wife as there seemed to be a lot of hurt and pain in him. He replied that things were fine as they were.

So I suppose that, deep down, I feel that I'm his second choice because his first choice is busy with her boyfriend and that he's just biding his time. We have grown very close in the meantime but his words are as fresh in my mind as if he had said them yesterday. If I ever bring up that time he becomes very hurt and asks why I won't let him get past that, that he has a right to grow and that I need to let it go.


Yes you're right, I do devalue myself, I think I always have but I don't know how to NOT do that...I would love Scenario B to happen but I continue to allow Scenario A.

I suppose I'm afraid that if I ask him to change a behavior I will seem just as controlling as his wife, who is incredibly controlling and domineering. Or worse, he will refuse to change a behavior or make boundaries with his wife, because she IS his wife and to him being a good husband is very important. Then what would be left? I would need to end my relationship with Joseph.

So many questions Galagirl, so few answers but I so appreciate your input, it's already given me so much clarity.

 

[GreenAcres]

I see some HUGE red flags going on here (I am terrible at figuring out the multi-quote thing, so italicizing your words to highlight):

"in the past when I have brought something up my boyfriend (who is extremely articulate) seems to be able to turn my feelings around on me and I end up feeling like an idiot." This is, at best, dysfunctional and manipulative, and is NOT genuine communication. It's a tool used by certain personalities to get what they want. You will get nowhere in this relationship as long as he does this.

"When something happens while we're together during the weekend I don't often speak up about it right away...I need a day or two to 'process' things...but when I do bring it up during our nightly chats I know that this annoys Joseph as he would prefer to nip it in the bud." He can prefer other methods of conflict resolution, but he should respect yours as you do his.

'When I was at his place a few months ago, his wife and I were chatting about dealing with conflict with our boyfriends...she likes to deal with it immediately. I said that I need a few days to think about it and then I bring it up, usually via our nightly chats. To this she replied, "Oh I know, Joseph hates when you do that..."' Red flag: NO BOUNDARIES. I'll address this more later.

THIS: "While I was reading your response I realized that I DO blame Joseph, as far as I know he has no boundaries with his wife, at least none that I can see. It is out of the goodness of her heart that I even have the 'alone' time with him that I do have, as long as it is convenient for her."... and this "In the beginning of our relationship I asked him what would happen if they decided to 'close' their marriage, if his wife broke up with her boyfriend? He replied that I would be on the outside, looking in...that there would be no hesitation to say good bye to me. She was his wife after all. ..and this ""A few months later the four if us (me, Joseph, his wife and her boyfriend) were at a party, enjoying ourselves, drinking and generally having a good time. That night Joseph confided in me that he wished that the boyfriend wasn't around, that I wasn't around so that he and his wife could resume their life together. Now, he was very inebriated and didn't remember anything the next day. But I sure did. When I brought it up he said they were just the ramblings of a drunk man but I believe he spoke his own truth that night."

RE-read your words. You are, at best, secondary. I am not saying that can't work, some people are into hierarchy; but, you are clearly there are his wife's leisure. (and yes, he was drunk for that last quote, but he had clearly been thinking about it, at the very least).

So I suppose that, deep down, I feel that I'm his second choice because his first choice is busy with her boyfriend and that he's just biding his time. We have grown very close in the meantime but his words are as fresh in my mind as if he had said them yesterday. If I ever bring up that time he becomes very hurt and asks why I won't let him get past that, that he has a right to grow and that I need to let it go. Did he ever address this, rather than turning it around on you? Do you get straight answers?

I suppose I'm afraid that if I ask him to change a behavior I will seem just as controlling as his wife, who is incredibly controlling and domineering. Or worse, he will refuse to change a behavior or make boundaries with his wife, because she IS his wife and to him being a good husband is very important. Being a good husband does not mean allowing someone to control you, to break boundaries, etc. That is an excuse. And his wife being his wife is not an excuse for disrespecting you. Your BF has HUGE boundary issues all around. While I in no ways excuse her controlling behavior, it may partly be in response to trying to deal with his lack of appropriate boundaries (because it's likely he has this issue in more areas of his life than just with you and she). That is NOT an excuse for you to tolerate it, just an idea of how it may have come to be.

The unfortunate reality is he's made it clear it's not just you who devalues you, it's he who doesn't value you. Stop listening to his words, and start looking at his actions.

Then what would be left? I would need to end my relationship with Joseph. That could be accurate, but would it be life-ending? No. Relationships end. It will hurt, it will be hard, but you're clearly not happy in the situation, and with good reasons. If that situation can't be changed, why would you want to stay?

 

[stillfiguringthingsout]

Kevin, you have hit one of the many nails on the head! He is cooperative and I am compliant. I agree I have been enabling this dysfunctional threesome but I don't know what else to do.

I don't think I have ever seen Joseph stand up to his wife, ever.

A few months ago I was very upset with how Joseph's wife was treating him...she was bossy and treating him like a child (they were preparing to go somewhere) I left earlier than my usual time because she was making being there unbearable and I couldn't just sit there and watch her treat him like that any more. When I told Joseph later how I was feeling he said that he does not like to argue or get angry with his wife in front of others (me and her boyfriend) and that he had a long talk with her and that everything was resolved.

So, I am afraid that he can't stand up to her, and that rather then do that he will defend her to me because it's easier to deal with me than to deal with her drama.

Sitting down to talk to both of them just downright scares me, I truly don't think Joseph would do it. He and his wife are always saying what a great relationship they have, but I wonder if she truly knows the extent of his feelings for me? I don't know, but I feel like I would be cornering him in some way and forcing him to choose. I truly don't want to cause trouble in their marriage, I respect their relationship and give them a lot of space. I just want the same in return.

Isn't that a conversation I need to have with Joseph alone? I feel including his wife in the conversation would give her even more power than she has now if that's even possible. Then he would need to have a conversation with her.

I'm so new to all this emotional stuff, it's exhausting!

Thank you for your insight Kevin, it has given me some clarity...and let me know that I'm not going crazy.

 

[stillfiguringthingsout]

Hi Greenacres,

It was so hard to read your response. It's true, all of it. It's very rare that I get a straight, direct answer. He frequently falls back on generalizations.

Even just contemplating ending my relationship with Joseph hurts me, and I'm no wimp, believe me.

I think I have to decide if I can continue being a secondary and that I need to have a serious, heart to heart, face to face with Joseph.

Do you think I should show him this thread?

 

[GreenAcres]

I am sorry you are going through such a challenging time. Showing him the thread may or may not help, it's hard to say. I've dated people with the turn-it-around thing going on, and have never successfully gotten them to knock it off. Because you've been together so long, it's going to be an even more challenging cycle to break because it's become an ingrained pattern. That doesn't mean it's impossible to do, just that I can't give much in the way of useful advice on how to make it happen. Possibly, a counselor may help you (even going on your own, to give you tools for how to address this kind of communication manipulation constructively)?

In this case, I'd say it's more than just being secondary. It sounds like there's also veto power potential (which isn't necessarily true for all hierarchy relationships), as well as the mentioned boundary issues. That latter conversation will likely have many parts, and is one he'll also have to agree to have with his wife (who will have to agree to having it, as well). And, that doesn't mean that either and both of their boundaries will jive with yours.

I would recommend doing a site search on "couple privilege" to help you get started. It may help you crystallize some of what is going on, and give you some things to think about to help get the conversation started.

It'll be a lot of work, and it's work you can't do alone. You have been involved with him for a substantial amount of time, and clearly have very strong feelings, so it's understandable that the idea of it ending is rough for you. Hopefully, you can find a way to work through it together. But, it's also important to set some agreements with yourself, so you can follow through with moving into a life that is healthy and good for you, even if that means ending the relationship with Joseph. Setting a timetable, for example, for talks about your boundaries and his, for getting straight answers, etc., can help keep things moving in healthy way instead of stagnating.

Also, I would stay clear of doing any talking about his relationship with his wife. Their relationship is their's, and they need to deal with it. You can set your boundaries, such as "I am unwilling to participate in visits at your home if those visits are subject to non-emergency interruptions," "I prefer not to discuss your relationship with your wife," and "My boundary is that I engage in relationships only with people who talk to me about issues in that relationship, and respect my privacy about details of the relationship when talking ot others," but, you cannot set other people's boundaries and actions. That doesn't mean you can't be friendly with her, etc., just that it's up to him to address any behaviors of hers (that are directed at him) that he doesn't like. It's not really up to you to like their relationship. Which sucks, I know--been there, too, and it's so incredibly difficult to not say anything; but, trust me, DON'T. Metaphorically: There is a reason that cops hate domestic abuse calls: the first person to defend their abuser is the abused, and it's often those trying to help that get the violence. I am not saying she's abusive, just that if you get in the middle there's a strong liklihood you're the one that will get the brunt of the wrath from him as they close ranks.

I hope this helps. *hugs*

 

[GalaGirl]

Sounds like you found your core issue with him then.

SPECIFIC ISSUES WITH JOSEPH

• He encourages me to share my feelings, but doesn't help create safe space to do it in because sometimes if he doesn't like what he hears? He will flip it around on me. (Problem!)
  
• He lacks boundaries with his wife – like he tells her about our private stuff. I don't like that. When I bring it to his attention? Instead of addressing it he flips it on me. (Problem!)

You don't want to ask him to practice self control to change this objectionable behavior of telling her private stuff because you are afraid he will flip it around on you by calling you "controlling."

You could learn there's a difference between ASKING someone if they are willing to practice some self control and modify a behavior (they are the boss of them) vs. you being controlling (you are the boss of them.)

He says I don't let things go and let him grow past it.

Yet he doesn't help you get past it by actually addressing the issues. He just does flipperoo! So I don't think that is a problem with you. It is still coming from HIM.

HE won't let HIM grow past it by doing actual growing/addressing the issue. He wants to hide it under the rug and ignore. And he blame shifts that to you if you point out the lump under there.

SPECIFIC ISSUES WITH YOU

You dislike the messenger always getting shot, so now you say nothing. This behavior is not serving you well. Because you grow resentment toward him for doing that behavior and toward yourself for allowing it. When you say nothing, you are allowing it.

When you have trouble articulating feelings, this resentment registers as some sort of vague malaise. But your instinct is spot on -- not esp keen to hang out with him to receive more flipperoo.

The bright side is that this DOES reside with you, so YOU can do something about this behavior you pick. You can pick something else.

SUGGESTION

You seem to be a conflict avoider. It does not serve you well. You could find another way to do conflict resolution.

When you choose to date a person who encourages you to share feelings but when he doesn't like what you say, flips it around on you and shoots the messenger? Two things happen.

1)you cannot feel safe in the relationship like that.

2) It reinforces you being a conflict avoider.

You also don't feel safe in the relationship anyway because he once told you while drunk that he'd dump you in a skinny minute if his wife wanted to Close and dumped her BF.

When I find myself in that place? Damned if I do, damned if I don't? Between the two? Better damned if I do, because then at least I am sticking up for myself. That comforts me even if the outcome is not what I desired. At least I am trying to get to an outcome I desire even if it doesn't land there. The other way? Damned if I don't? I choose to do nothing? I'm giving up on me and my pursuit of happiness and that's not acceptable to me.

You seem to fear breaking up with him. But from where I sit? You are less than happy. So it isn't some great prize situation to be keeping anyway, is it? You yourself call it a dysfunctional way of going. You could take steps to correct that.

• You could try to put it back on a healthy path. Lean IN rather than away from conflict and try to work it out with him. It might work out or you might dump him because he refuses to change his behaviors. But at least you are participating in your resolving your relationship!
  
• Or you just dump him now because he's got some behaviors he will not change and you don't want to put up with or merry-go-round any more. Solve it that way.

Both are empowering for you -- like YOU are the captain of your ship. Not just floating along however which way in the water with no paddle.

Boats? They can handle a little rocking. They are BOATS, remember?

You seem to lack confidence. You have that muscle, you just don't seem to use it much.

Confidence is grown and strengthened by DOING and discovering it isn't the end of the world and you can handle whatever it turns out to be. Like exercise -- you give it a workout. Every time you do it, it gets stronger. If you know you can swim and can cope if you fall out of the boat? You sweat boat rocking a lot less!

You could ask any of these small bite size things:

"1) I would like to know how you feel so I can know where we stand. Could you be willing to read this article and point to which of these open models do you think we are closest to?

2) I would like to know I hold a place in your life and I am just not going to be discarded one day willy nilly. If we have to break up, could you be willing to do it like THIS? (explain how you prefer to be broken up with. Then you can RELAX on this.)"

3) I would like our private stuff to stay between us. I recently learned from Wife that you told her that you don't like that I digest problems more slowly. Could you be willing to stop telling her so much about us and our problems and focus instead on solving them with me?

​

If he tries to flip it around on you? Accept and put the focus back on getting his basic (yes, willing / no, not willing.)

"Yes, I hear you say I am too sensitive, controlling, the purple spotted monster, whatever. (<-- Acknowledging input doesn't mean you AGREE with the input!)

We can address that later. Right now, I would like to hear if....

• you are willing or not willing to read this article and point? Yes or No?
• you are willing to break up with me like THIS if it ever has to happen? Yes or No?
• you are willing to keep our stuff private? Yes or No?

That's all I am after right now. A basic yes or no."​

Still hemming and hawing?

"Ok, I am going to take that as a "no, not willing" since I am not hearing a clear "YES, I am willing." Thank you. That was all the bite size info I wanted at this time."​

Then check out of the conversation to digest what you learned and make your next choices. Decline to participate if he wants to have the big ol' hooha now.

"I see you want to do this now. I am not willing and able to do this now. I am willing to set a date on the calendar though."

​

It doesn't have to be long and drawn out. It can be that short and sweet. Work WITH your nature rather than against it. You like to take bites and digest some before the next bite? Do it your way then.

You do not have to be all whooshy in one go (which exhausts you) just because HE likes to and calls it "nip in bud." (I think what he calls "nip in bud" is really him "lacking self control" to be honest. It all has to happen on HIS time table. But the relationship isn't all about just him!)

The point though is that you DO address it. In YOUR style. And you stop avoiding.


CONCLUSION

Or worse, he will refuse to change a behavior or make boundaries with his wife, because she IS his wife and to him being a good husband is very important. Then what would be left? I would need to end my relationship with Joseph.

Yup. If the bottom line is that he rarely wants to practice self control and address actual issues between you? He prefers to shoot the messenger and play flipperoo? He will not change poor behaviors?

That's a poor partner to be relating with because it is not a two-way street. It is one-way relating where he's happy to get whatever from you, but give you little in return.

And nope. You don't have to stay. Shrinking yourself to fit just to be here? Not healthy. It is not dignified or self respecting for you to hang around with that. You can do better than that for yourself.

IT IS OK TO DUMP HIM BECAUSE HE DOES NOT MEET YOUR STANDARDS.

Disappointing, sure. Nobody loves breaking up. But it is totally ok to do. And you can handle it. You get to pick who you hang with / do not hang with.

YOU can treat you well with dignity, value, worth and respect even if he does not. You deserve to be treated well.

Galagirl

 

[WhatHappened]

I hesitate to bring up any negative feelings I have when I'm with Joseph because we have so little time together and I don't want to 'waste' it in an emotionally draining discussion.

in the past when I have brought something up my boyfriend (who is extremely articulate) seems to be able to turn my feelings around on me and I end up feeling like an idiot.

...I don't often speak up about it right away...I need a day or two to 'process' things...but when I do bring it up during our nightly chats I know that this annoys Joseph as he would prefer to nip it in the bud.

I said that I need a few days to think about it and then I bring it up, ... To this she replied, "Oh I know, Joseph hates when you do that..."

He frequently tells me that he loves me,

We've never actually labelled our relationship as secondary or primary. I don't really like to label anything, how would I even begin such a conversation...?

While I was reading your response I realized that I DO blame Joseph, as far as I know he has no boundaries with his wife, at least none that I can see....

I asked him what would happen if they decided to 'close' their marriage... He replied that I would be on the outside,...She was his wife after all.

...Joseph confided in me that he wished...he and his wife could resume their life together. ... I suggested that maybe he needed to talk to his wife as there seemed to be a lot of hurt and pain in him. He replied that things were fine as they were.

... I feel that I'm his second choice because his first choice is busy with her boyfriend and that he's just biding his time. We have grown very close in the meantime ..... If I ever bring up that time he becomes very hurt and asks why I won't let him get past that, that he has a right to grow and that I need to let it go.

I'm afraid that if I ask him to change a behavior ......he will refuse to change a behavior or make boundaries with his wife, because she IS his wife and to him being a good husband is very important. Then what would be left? I would need to end my relationship with Joseph.

I had to check all the security cameras and make absolutely sure I hadn't signed in as an alter ego and written your post!

For what it's worth in making your decisions...I see so much of my own situation in what you're describing, and it completely reaffirms my decision to break up with him. That was a year ago, after just over two years together.

Not bringing up things because we only have this time, and it's so good, let's not ruin it. Check.

Turning things on me. Check. He told me over and over I could talk to him about anything. When I told him I didn't understand any of this, my place in his life, etc, he got upset, and actually told me it might take him a few days to get over this!

Partly as a result of him getting upset every time I told him how I felt or what I needed...I, too, would take some time to think about it before I spoke, work it through on my own if I could, choose my words carefully. I am now being told that I 'deceived' him by pretending things were fine and then suddenly hitting him with how I'd been 'angry' for weeks. (No acknowledgement to date that his previous bouts of anger might make me hesitant to try again in the communication department.)

The wife being privy to Joseph's feelings....I don't know for a fact, but I found out a year and 8 months into our 2 year relationship that his wife had the passwords to all his accounts--and thus had access to all my supposedly private e-mails with him. Nobody had bothered telling me. In reviewing some of them last night, and one in particular where his response made no sense at all to what I had said, my gut told me that she had been giving him her input on our relationship. (Given what I think her true feelings were, it was deliberate sabotage.) So, yeah, check. Not cool.

He told me often how he cherished and treasured our every moment together and feared it ending. Check.

He was very upset at me saying I felt secondary. But it became clear I was never going to be on any level near his wife's primary status. I did bring it up near the end, and learned that after two intense years, in which he did things for me he'd never done for anyone...his wife was his priority, and it would be cool if I came over for movie nights with them, but clearly he didn't want any sort of co-primary thing.

I have had to come to understand that even if she was being underhanded and sabotaging things...he let her. He chose over and over again to let things stand as they were and not give me some of the basic courtesies and respect he gave to her boyfriend and even to her casual FBs. No thank you. That one is on him. He chose to turn a blind eye to what was going on.

I, too, asked what happened in the event they 'closed.' He told me they had an agreement that either of them could pull the plug on the lifestyle for both of them at any time, no questions asked. It would happen. But he just kept telling me it didn't matter, because she would never do that. (And yet...if she did...but he just dismissed that and refused to talk about it.)

No idea here if XBF wished he and wife could be closer again. But it did seem to me that at least for her, I was a convenient toy to occupy him while she did her thing...until he started falling in love and was no longer available as her date of last choice for swing parties. I did begin to wonder how much of his bar hopping and womanizing were an attempt to fill empty hours while his wife was off having sex with every man in the tri-state area except him.

After several comments that suggested such things (date of last choice, for example), I suggested he talk to his wife. I was told in no uncertain terms they're Very Very Happy.

Growing close...check. Yet I came to see that I would always be number two. Check. Accusing me of 'not letting things go.' (even though they're still an issue and he's still accusing me....) Check.

I did ask for a change, a year and a half ago. Long story short, no change. It was something I wasn't willing to put up with. I broke up with him. He's upset. I'm upset. It's been a year. I've told him all it would have taken was such a small change, something any other GF could expect as a matter of course, something even her FBs got. He won't do it. It breaks my heart. I loved him. I truly believe he loved me like he's never loved anyone. (Or maybe it's all an act on his part because he's got some psychological sadism thing going on and likes reeling women in and keeping them hanging on his heart strings in love with him...who knows.)

I miss him. His e-mails even now are full of pain.

But I know I would have grown smaller and smaller and more self-loathing, had I continued to let myself be treated like that.

Eventually, that's our choice.

 

[WhatHappened]

...it's up to him to address any behaviors of hers (that are directed at him) that he doesn't like. It's not really up to you to like their relationship. Which sucks, I know--been there, too, and it's so incredibly difficult to not say anything; but, trust me, DON'T. Metaphorically: There is a reason that cops hate domestic abuse calls: the first person to defend their abuser is the abused, and it's often those trying to help that get the violence. I am not saying she's abusive, just that if you get in the middle there's a strong likelihood you're the one that will get the brunt of the wrath from him as they close ranks.

Excellent analogy. It helps me remember/realize I shouldn't take some of XBF's words so personally. It puts a lot into a different perspective.

 

[stillfiguringthingsout]

Greenacres, it helps alot!

First I absolutely think that I need counseling. I just need to find a 'poly'friendly counselor. Once I believe I am 'worthy' of boundaries maybe then I can ask for them.

I like your idea of making a timetable for myself...to discuss important matters, like boundaries, etc.

Also, I would stay clear of doing any talking about his relationship with his wife. Their relationship is their's, and they need to deal with it. You can set your boundaries, such as "I am unwilling to participate in visits at your home if those visits are subject to non-emergency interruptions," "I prefer not to discuss your relationship with your wife," and "My boundary is that I engage in relationships only with people who talk to me about issues in that relationship, and respect my privacy about details of the relationship when talking ot others," but, you cannot set other people's boundaries and actions. That doesn't mean you can't be friendly with her, etc., just that it's up to him to address any behaviors of hers (that are directed at him) that he doesn't like. It's not really up to you to like their relationship. Which sucks, I know--been there, too, and it's so incredibly difficult to not say anything; but, trust me, DON'T. Metaphorically: There is a reason that cops hate domestic abuse calls: the first person to defend their abuser is the abused, and it's often those trying to help that get the violence. I am not saying she's abusive, just that if you get in the middle there's a strong liklihood you're the one that will get the brunt of the wrath from him as they close ranks.

I like the replies you use here, since I can't find my own words do you mind if I use yours? They help keep the focus on our relationship rather than his and his wife's.

I cannot even begin to tell you how wonderful it is to be able to talk freely here and to receive such insightful, compassionate, honest and sometimes tough advice.

Thank you

 

[GalaGirl]

Once I believe I am 'worthy' of boundaries maybe then I can ask for them.

Does it ever occur to you it could go the other way?

You set healthy boundaries first. By doing so you begin treating yourself like you matter.

You then begin to believe you have inherent worth, dignity and value.

Galagirl

 

[GreenAcres]

Stillfiguringthingsout, you're are welcome to use any parts of my response that help you, assuming that they reflect what you feel. My boundary examples may not be your actual boundaries, but if they are, you're welcome to use them.

GalaGirl, as always, had some amazing advice on how to deal with the communication issues. I find that, when I am having problems communicating, I do better if I write things down before trying to present them to someone else. Would it be easier to articulate your boundaries if you wrote them down first, and prioritized them? Some boundaries are, for me, flexible depending on a variety of things (meeting my new lover's metamours is a good example--I prefer it in most instances, but there are cases where it's not so much a thing) and other are not (such as details of my sex life with my partners is private, and I will not be in a relationship where those details are being shared with anyone but my partner). Figuring out what your "hard line" boundaries are can help you address things in a meaningful order that helps get things done (so you know you're focusing on what is important to you, and not getting derailed by minutia, so to speak). Writing them down may also help you focus on your relationship with BF, and not get bogged down in his relationship with the wife.

Somewhere, there is a list of poly-friendly counselors, but I can't find it. Hopefully, someone here has it bookmarked

I'm glad you found the board! I, too, have found the people here an amazing help, especially in my last poly relationship.

 

[stillfiguringthingsout]

Galagirl, can I say I love you? lol I think that I will read and reread your response on a daily basis.

I know that I lack confidence and would prefer to avoid conflict if at all possible. But I know that these things have helped to put me where I am today.

I need to start with myself and then progress to Joseph and I.

You could try to put it back on a healthy path. Lean IN rather than away from conflict and try to work it out with him. It might work out or you might dump him. But at least you are participating in your resolving your relationship!

I want to try and get us back onto a healthy path. Lean IN rather than away? I sure as hell willing to try!

Thank you, your insight and advice is very much appreciated.

 

[GreenAcres]

Excellent analogy. It helps me remember/realize I shouldn't take some of XBF's words so personally. It puts a lot into a different perspective.

I am glad it helps! It's one that I often hesitate to use, because of the abuse triggers that can come of it.

 

[WhatHappened]

Does it ever occur to you it could go the other way?

You set healthy boundaries first. By doing so you begin treating yourself like you matter.

You then begin to believe you have inherent worth, dignity and value.

Galagirl

This is true. As much as I miss XBF, I felt my inherent dignity jump by leaps and bounds when I put my foot down and said, No. I'm worth more than these breadcrumbs your wife (and you) are giving me.

 

[WhatHappened]

I am glad it helps! It's one that I often hesitate to use, because of the abuse triggers that can come of it.

FWIW...at the risk of side tracking...my father was taken to jail after a night of domestic abuse. After a brief restraining order, my mother (foolishly) let him back, and suddenly the problem was the abusive cops and me causing their marital problems. I've been there. But to me, it's not a trigger, but means I know exactly what you're talking about.

 

[GalaGirl]

I am glad it helps some. It sometimes helps me to bullet list what I am after when I am contemplating changes. So I offer it to you.

BEST FOR BOTH OUTCOME:

Joseph and I work it out and these behaviors stop.

• HIM: He chooses to stop flipperoo, stop blabbing our private stuff
  
• ME: I choose to stop conflict avoiding. I choose to stop accepting poor behaviors from him. Both my short term health and long term health improve.

GOOD FOR ME OUTCOME:

• HIM: He chooses to keep on with messed up behaviors.
• ME: I change mine. I choose to stop avoiding. I choose to stop accepting poor behavior from him. I choose to dump him and not deal in that crazy any more. Because even if break ups stink in the short term? My long term health improves.

BAD FOR ME OUTCOME:

• HIM: He chooses to keep on with messed up behaviors.
• ME: I choose to keep on with mine and stay in this unhealthy dynamic. I leave both my short term health and long term health sinking.

Aim for best or good. Don't aim for bad.

Galagirl

 

[stillfiguringthingsout]

Holy Smokes! WhatHappened, you are freaking me out! It is so eerie how very similar our situations are!

No idea here if XBF wished he and wife could be closer again. But it did seem to me that at least for her, I was a convenient toy to occupy him while she did her thing...until he started falling in love and was no longer available as her date of last choice for swing parties. I did begin to wonder how much of his bar hopping and womanizing were an attempt to fill empty hours while his wife was off having sex with every man in the tri-state area except him.

After several comments that suggested such things (date of last choice, for example), I suggested he talk to his wife. I was told in no uncertain terms they're Very Very Happy.


I believe the exact same thing, that I keep Joseph busy so his wife can grow the relationship with her boyfriend. Sometimes they barely say anything civil to each other yet they also are "very, very happy"

Growing close...check. Yet I came to see that I would always be number two. Check. Accusing me of 'not letting things go.' (even though they're still an issue and he's still accusing me....) Check.

I'm also coming to this realization

I did ask for a change, a year and a half ago. Long story short, no change. It was something I wasn't willing to put up with. I broke up with him. He's upset. I'm upset. It's been a year. I've told him all it would have taken was such a small change, something any other GF could expect as a matter of course, something even her FBs got. He won't do it. It breaks my heart. I loved him. I truly believe he loved me like he's never loved anyone. (Or maybe it's all an act on his part because he's got some psychological sadism thing going on and likes reeling women in and keeping them hanging on his heart strings in love with him...who knows.)

I know that a very serious discussion is looming for Joseph and I, I need to know where I stand...if he's all talk or am I as important to him as he says I am? I in no way want him to push his wife aside, I would like to be able to stand beside her, not behind her.

I'm so sorry for your pain I admire your strength and hope that I will be able to find my own. I have a feeling I will need it, regardless of how it turns out.

Thank you for sharing your experience, I know it couldn't have been easy.

 

[stillfiguringthingsout]

Does it ever occur to you it could go the other way?

You set healthy boundaries first. By doing so you begin treating yourself like you matter.



I wouldn't even know where to begin