Why does it feel like I'm cheating?

[WifeAndBoyfriend]

My wife, Samantha and I are in a relationship with a cishet man, Arnold. There have been great times with the three of us, but the good times aren't consistent. When my wife gets thrown into a place of bad thoughts and feelings she gets silent, usually until the next morning, and I get anxious.

Even though there are no big secrets in the relationship I'm in a constant state of fear of what feels like "getting caught". Often I'm afraid of getting caught having a particular feeling. A few examples: 1) Even though I'm allowed to text him in the evenings (unless she asks me not to for a moment), I'm sometimes still more comfortable sending a message in the bathroom, and that leaves me open to getting caught sneaking around. Its not that I'm getting caught texting him- just getting caught not being comfortable to do so openly. 2) He's very supportive - uniformly so, probably because we don't have the same stakes in our dating relationship with each other as we we do in our marriages with our wives, so he's more able to be there for me without responding to my issues with his own complementary emotional crisis. For this reason, sometimes I go to him for comfort and support. But its wounding for her when she sees me needing him or receiving support from him. Samantha feels she should be the person that I come to, and that she was before Arnold came around. 3) He was supposed to be visiting this weekend, and last night spiraled after I got very anxious that during his visit we would have 3-way sex and I would get caught enjoying him too much. That's happened before and it was miserable. The sex between the three of us used to be the most magical thing. Now I don't want to have it anymore because I'm so scared of it going wrong, that I won't pay her enough attention, or he won't, or she won't like how he and I are connecting to each other. But I also don't feel fully free to avoid sex with the two of them, because it will raise more questions about my sexual compatibility with her and threaten my ability to have sex with him at all. This pressure and anxiety I feel around sex is poisoning the well of our connection, and when I tried to talk to her about it last night it got worse.

She hasn't been speaking to him for a few days - not answering his goodnight or good morning texts - and this started when he was having a hard time this weekend and she knew that he was talking to me about it, but brushed it off when she asked him if he was okay. She says she is hurt about this but that it is not the issue.

At times she says she could never be in a monogamous relationship and that poly is a part of her identity. Now she is saying that she "isn't built for this", can't live her truth, that this relationship is destroying her and robbing her of her identity and ability to care for herself. She stays up all night sometimes crying.

Last night she told me that she was ending the marriage. She said "you can't have both of us", but she doesn't want to make me chose or rip me away from him and live with the me that's left after. Even if I broke it off with Arnold (which would be agonizing- I am very deeply in love with him) she feels that would just put the problem off til next time, and I know she's right. She doesn't want to carry on with me in a relationship that doesn't allow me to be my whole self. Now she is saying she doesn't want to give up, wants to get counseling, etc. I don't want to give up on the marriage either. We love each other so much and neither of us can imagine losing the other. But we are both suffering and neither of us feels like we are free to be ourselves in this relationship.

I know this description doesn't flatter my wife but she's an amazing person. She's my angel. She is just suffering in a relationship that doesn't work for her and doesn't know what to do. We all want each other to be happy and thrive. But we would much rather do that together if its possible.

 

[GalaGirl]

I'm sorry you struggle.

You aren't cheating. Everyone consented to try this triad thing.

You are trying to have your own separate relationship with Arnold. And neither you or Samantha are used to that. I don't think you fear "getting caught." I think you fear HER REACTION to you having a relationship separate from her/your shared marriage.

She's also trying to have her own separate relationship with him.

As well as you two trying to keep up the marriage relationship with each other.

I notice newbies sometimes think "Just like us, only with 3!" But it's not. A triad is 3 V's stacked up together. It can feel INTENSE.

• Samantha is a hinge. Your are her wife. Arnold is her BF. You and Arnold are metas to each other. (5 hats)
  
• You are a hinge. Samantha is your wife. Arnold is your BF. Samantha and Arnold are metas to each other. (5 hats)
  
• Arnold is a hinge. Samantha is his GF. You are his GF. Samantha and you are metas to each other. (5 hats)

That's 3 people wearing 15 hats.

If it was just you and Samantha?

• Samantha is your wife. You are her wife. (2 people wearing 2 hats.)

This pressure and anxiety I feel around sex is poisoning the well of our connection, and when I tried to talk to her about it last night it got worse.

Stop talking to her about it. You could just decide your participating level. Group sex is not a poly requirement. If it's not fun any more or too hard right now to get right? Could stop participating in it and just share sex with wife separately from sharing sex with your BF. Your consent to participate in things belongs to YOU.

At times she says she could never be in a monogamous relationship and that poly is a part of her identity.

Ok.

Now she is saying that she "isn't built for this", can't live her truth, that this relationship is destroying her and robbing her of her identity and ability to care for herself. She stays up all night sometimes crying.

You know the old marriage ended already, right? And you both are going to feel grief over that loss/change. Even if you ended it on purpose to have this new relationship model called poly with Arnold (who also has a wife) and both are happy with Arnold and wanted this. There will still be grief. There will be a period of adjustment. Maybe even a longing for the "old normal." Is that what this is for her? The weird transition place where she misses the stability of the "old normal?" And this new normal isn't here yet and things are all "up in the air" feeling?

How long is this triad been dating? How was the grief addressed (if at all yet)? Was it even recognized as grief? It isn't "adding a third." It's breaking up and starting over in a new model.

I get that the group sex is magical, but that's ANOTHER skill set to deal with and it sounds like just sharing the same BF is causing waves right now. Watching a new lover share sex with you and please you? When she was the only one pleasing you that way? That's a lot to process.

If her old identity as your wife was "I'm her everything person" and she was all wrapped up in you? She is going to go through some adjustment. Figure out who she is apart from that.

Cuz now you have another partner who you share things with. She isn't the only one any more. Not the only lover, not the only companion, not the only listening ear. And seeing new partner with other skills may be holding up a mirror she doesn't like.

At minimum, you are on eggshells because when she feels bad, she acts out and the whole house feels bad.

She WANTS to be your support person, but sounds like she's a poor listener. Instead of listening and giving you support on your issues, she comes along and dumps her issues on the table too when it wasn't her turn.

So now you now turn to Arnold who is a better listener and doesn't dump his issues on the table. He lets the "listening appointment" be all about you.

Last night she told me that she was ending the marriage. She said "you can't have both of us", but she doesn't want to make me chose or rip me away from him and live with the me that's left after.

Ok. Sounds like she was upset last night. Emotional flooding. Try to not take it personally.

Even if I broke it off with Arnold (which would be agonizing- I am very deeply in love with him) she feels that would just put the problem off til next time, and I know she's right.

Ok. She identifies as poly. When is she going to do her personal work and disentangle from you? Learn to share you? Because she is right. If she doesn't do this work it will pop up again with the next person and she will struggle.

Mostly she sounding jealous you text him. Are you two married like "joined at the hip?" Or like "we are both a couple and individuals?" Maybe she's not used to you having your own individual privacy. And instead of viewing this as a return to healthier ways, she feels abandoned?

She also sounds jealous during group sex if she thinks you enjoy yourself with him too much or she doesn't get enough attention. Well, group sex has a learning curve too. How about not sharing group sex right now while you iron out the poly learning curve first? REDUCE the stressors? And not try to do everything at once? It isn't like group sex is a poly requirement.

She sounds jealous that you now also turn to Arnold for emotional support. Well, if it is because he's got better communication/listening skills? She could
work to improve hers.

Have you done the work of detaching? You sound pretty caught up in her adjustment feelings.

https://medium.com/@PolyamorySchool/the-most-skipped-step-when-opening-a-relationship-f1f67abbbd49

She doesn't want to carry on with me in a relationship that doesn't allow me to be my whole self.

So which relationship is she talking about that she thinks is holding you back? The one you have with her? Or the one you have with Arnold? Or the one you have with yourself? A combo? Do YOU think any of these is holding you back? Cuz if you are fine and say so? She could believe you.

Now she is saying she doesn't want to give up, wants to get counseling, etc. I don't want to give up on the marriage either.

Ok. So has either of you made an appointment with a poly friendly marriage counselor?

https://www.polyfriendly.org/list.php?category=Psychotherapists - Licensed or Registered

And made some "in the meanwhile" agreements like no group sex for now? Each can share sex with Arnold on their own but at least reduce the group sex trigger.

And visits WITH hotel. Because then all can have space alone if the visit gets too intense. Even fun things like roller coasters? Do them 200 times in a row -- people get ugh feeling. There needs to be breaks.

Is some of this stress due to "kid in a candy store" with both dating Arnold and not also remembering to date each other? Or spend time alone? Or spend time with other friends? More life balance?

We love each other so much and neither of us can imagine losing the other. But we are both suffering and neither of us feels like we are free to be ourselves in this relationship.

Or this is new and changing how things use to be? And it feels WEIRD because the "old normal" is gone, the "new normal" isn't here quite yet, and trying a new relationship model is shining a light in places that were weak but unnoticed before. So it feels daunting to have them all come out now.

I could be wrong but I notice this --

• You get caught up in her anxiety which then triggers your own.

• You text in bathrooms to get privacy. Did you not have privacy before this?

• You have a hard time asserting yourself and stating what YOU want or need to your partners. Are you a people pleaser?

• For this visit this weekend -- You don't feel confident telling your two lovers you are not up for group sex this weekend? Why is that?

• Samantha is a poor listener. She WANTS to be your support person, but if you go to her for help she doesn't listen and comfort you on your issues. She kinda steals the mic and starts airing out HER issues.

• Do you walk on eggshells around Samantha?

• Would poly be better if you dated separate people? Rather than starting off with the hardest model -- a triad where both are dating the same person?

I know this description doesn't flatter my wife but she's an amazing person. She's my angel. She is just suffering in a relationship that doesn't work for her and doesn't know what to do. We all want each other to be happy and thrive. But we would much rather do that together if its possible.

What does "together" mean?

What is she suffering with? It can feel like "destruction" if someone is being called to grow/improve themselves. A seed has to burst to make a tree, right?

Maybe you all didn't do enough prep work before jumping into a triad? You all could slow down to catch it up.

http://www.practicalpolyamory.com/downloadabledocuments.html

http://www.kathylabriola.com/articles

https://openingup.net/resources/free-downloads-from-opening-up/

https://www.morethantwo.com/

HTH!
Galagirl

 

[WifeAndBoyfriend]

Thank you GalaGirl!

Thank you for the time and thought you put into helping me! That’s wonderfully kind of you.

I’ll respond in more detail later, but for now I just wanted to clarify that I’m a woman. When my wife talks about the relationship with Arnold destabilizing her identity, this has a lot to do with her being a lesbian who is not attracted to men and would have never foreseen herself this emotionally involved with one.

The triad has been together about 10 months.

Thank you for the clear and solid help! We live deep in a rural area so we will likely have to make due with counseling that is not explicitly pro-poly; the poly-centric advice is vital <3

 

[GalaGirl]

Ah, my apologies. Thanks for clarifying that. I'll update to "wife" in the right spots above since I can still edit.

When my wife talks about the relationship with Arnold destabilizing her identity, this has a lot to do with her being a lesbian who is not attracted to men and would have never foreseen herself this emotionally involved with one.

So now there's this other facet of it then. Your lesbian wife met a "game changer" -- she never thought she'd be into a guy and turns out she's into Arnold.

10 mos? While every relationship is different... sounds like the NRE is wearing off, the "reality" is setting in, challenges popping up, etc.

If you wanted a visual aid, this article has one in the middle of it. The "magical" lalalas of new relationship energy is wearing off and here comes reality.

https://www.eoslifework.co.uk/transprac.htm

I hope your searching for a counselor is good.

Hang in there!

Galagirl

 

[Magdlyn]

I agree with everything GG said. And it shouldn't matter that you and Samantha are women, but in our society as it stands, with gender roles and identities, it does.

It's extremely important that Samantha IDs as a lesbian who is attracted to a "cis het" guy. I wondered why you mentioned his identity, and now I see why. Maybe Sam (if I may nickname her that for ease of typing) has been attracted to butch women or even transmasculine people, or transmen before? But this cis guy is a whole new ball of wax.

So, not only is she insecure about you, as a woman (you're bi? pansexual?) being attracted to a cis het guy, she's also insecure of her loss of ID as a gold star lesbian. No wonder she cries at night. No wonder she threatens to leave you and let you be with Arnold.

As GG said, as the infatuation is wearing off 10 months in, Sam is no longer losing herself in the threeway sex. She is divorced from the joy and is making judgments about you and Arnold enjoying each other "too much."

Threeway sex is hard! It takes practice to do it well, and exquisite social tact. Often it seems good the first few times, just from the rush of the novelty, but then it gets worse, as someone often gets to feeling left out, and not touched enough, and not able to orgasm, while the other 2 are going at it like bunnies. This can happen in any gender configuration. It's frustrating and upsetting.

Add in that Sam may never have seen a man naked before in a sexual situation, or even kissed a guy before. I assume you have been with men before and know how they operate. Sam might not understand men's bodies, sexual responses, and emotional expression as well as you do.

And maybe Arnold himself is starting to feel insecure about having MF PIV sex with a woman who IDs as gay.

My wife, Samantha and I are in a relationship with a cis het man, Arnold. There have been great times with the three of us, but the good times aren't consistent. When my wife gets thrown into a place of bad thoughts and feelings she gets silent, usually until the next morning, and I get anxious.

Even though there are no big secrets in the relationship, I'm in a constant state of fear of what feels like "getting caught." Often I'm afraid of getting caught having a particular feeling.

A few examples: 1) Even though I'm allowed to text him in the evenings (unless she asks me not to for a moment), I'm sometimes still more comfortable sending a message in the bathroom, and that leaves me open to getting caught sneaking around. Its not that I'm getting caught texting him- just getting caught not being comfortable to do so openly.

I just want to point out that calling Arnold from the bathroom isn't being "caught having a feeling." Making a phone call or a text isn't a feeling, it's a behavior.

And we are allowed to have whatever feelings we want. We can't choose our feelings. It's our thoughts and behaviors that we can control. We can make good choices and not so good ones.

And Sam doesn't get to "allow" or not allow you to do whatever. She's not your mom, boss or teacher. She's your wife; you're equals. She can consent or not to your behaviors. You can agree or not agree to modify your behaviors in order to please her, suit yourself, be a better partner, or be more comfortable and authentic in your life. It's not all about pleasing or not pleasing Samantha, by trying to manage her emotions for her. It's her job to manage her emotions.

2) He's very supportive... he's more able to be there for me without responding to my issues with his own complementary emotional crisis. For this reason, sometimes I go to him for comfort and support. But it's wounding for her when she sees me needing him or receiving support from him. Samantha feels she should be the person that I come to, as she was before Arnold came around.

Part of the coolness of polyamory is that we can get different needs met by different people. Just as we might get different things from different friends or relatives. I don't expect to get the same thing from my sister as I do from my grand niece. Yet I love them both.

Part of poly behavior is understanding we enjoy the variety in loving more than one. It doesn't make any one of our partners lesser. Just different.

But it sounds like you think that Sam has failed you in being as supportive as you might like. You two could work on better communication. You could learn about how Arnold does active listening, and convey this type of exchange to your communication style with Sam.

3) He was supposed to be visiting this weekend. Last night spiraled downward after I got very anxious that, during his visit, we would have 3-way sex, and I would "get caught" enjoying him "too much."

"Get caught." Yikes. You're all in bed, and it should be loving and delicious, but somehow it feels like an open trap for you. How unpleasant! That would be a real lady boner killer for me! I'd just stop the threeway sex. It's not working. Yuck.

That's happened before, and it was miserable. The sex between the three of us used to be the most magical thing. Now I don't want to have it anymore because I'm so scared of it going wrong-- that I won't pay her enough attention, or he won't, or she won't like how he and I are connecting to each other.

Just stop.

But I also don't feel fully free to avoid sex with the two of them, because it will raise more questions about my sexual compatibility with her and threaten my ability to have sex with him at all. This pressure and anxiety I feel around sex is poisoning the well of our connection, and when I tried to talk to her about it last night it got worse.

It's possible to have a good sexual connection with Arnold one day, one on one, and a good sex session with Sam another day, one on one. Stop comparing! Stop competing! Don't even tell Sam about your sex with Arnold. Don't tell Arnold about your sex with Sam. Don't let Sam and/or Arnold tell you about any sex they share (if she even wants to fuck a man anymore; it's not clear she does).

Don't even let Sam overhear you and Arnold having sex. As GG said, go get a hotel. Or arrange a date at Arnold's place. Or have sex with him when Sam is out doing something else. Etc.

She hasn't been speaking to him for a few days - not answering his goodnight or good morning texts - and this started when he was having a hard time this weekend and she knew that he was talking to me about it, but brushed it off when she asked him if he was okay. She says she is hurt about this, but that it is not the issue.

She says that she's not speaking to him for other reasons? Other than how she is envious or jealous of how you and Arnold emotionally support each other? She's acting out, for whatever reason. Now she's withholding even more. She sounds very insecure.

At times she says she could never be in a monogamous relationship and that poly is a part of her identity. Now she is saying that she "isn't built for this", can't live her truth, that this relationship is destroying her and robbing her of her identity and ability to care for herself. She stays up all night sometimes crying.

Whether it's adjusting to the practice of polyamory (other than just casual threesome sex), or whether it's adjusting to having sex with a man when she thinks she's actually gay, she's having a rough time.

I know this description doesn't flatter my wife but she's an amazing person. She's my angel. She is just suffering in a relationship that doesn't work for her and doesn't know what to do. We all want each other to be happy and thrive. But we would much rather do that together if its possible.

As GG mentioned, Sam is "emotionally flooding." She gets overwhelmed and overly emotional and loses her sense of rationality. You can reflect her feelings back to her. But when she loses her shit, end the conversation. Walk away. It's not giving up. It's just taking a breather. You can come back to a discussion at another time. Take breaks. Don't spend an entire weekend processing. Let it be an hour every few days. Go on nice dates together. Breathe. Eat well. Take rest, and sleep. Go for walks in nature. Get perspective.

I can't emphasize this enough: if Sam agrees, make an appointment with a LGBT counselor. Either for you together or her individually. This is hard. It's great to have help from an objective person. Believe me, I know.

 

[kdt26417]

Hi WifeAndBoyfriend,

It sounds like Samantha would like you and Arnold to be less close to each other. Not that she would like to break up with either of you, I don't think she wants that. And not that she would like you to break up with Arnold, I don't think she wants that either. She'd just like you and Arnold to be a little bit less close to each other. Less in love with each other. Less reliant on each other for emotional support. Is this something you can do? Can you take a step back from Arnold? Can he take a step back from you? Do you *want* to take a step back? Is it reasonable for Samantha to want you to?

If it's not possible, or not reasonable, then every time Samantha "catches" you not being comfortable texting openly, every time she catches you turning to him for emotional support, and every time she catches you enjoying him "too much" during threesome sex, she is going to make you feel like you're cheating. The only alternative is if she makes peace with how close you and Arnold are. Can she do that? Does she *want* to do that? Maybe she remembers the days before Arnold when you turned to her for support, and perhaps enjoyed her more intensely. And she wants that back, she doesn't want to be "okay" with it.

I'm sure you'd like to discuss these things with her, but it sounds like she is not strong in the communication area. Like, when you try to discuss with her the alternatives, it just makes her more upset, and maybe she lashes out. I hope maybe a good counselor can help the two of you communicate with each other more effectively. Otherwise you may need more privacy. You may need to hold off on threesome sex for the time being. You may need to text in the bathroom. She may not like that, and you might hate getting "caught," but I don't see that you have a lot of alternatives at this point.

I hope you can work things out, somehow.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[Magdlyn]

Hi WifeAndBoyfriend,

It sounds like Samantha would like you and Arnold to be less close to each other. Not that she would like to break up with either of you, I don't think she wants that. And not that she would like you to break up with Arnold, I don't think she wants that either. She'd just like you and Arnold to be a little bit less close to each other. Less in love with each other. Less reliant on each other for emotional support. Is this something you can do? Can you take a step back from Arnold? Can he take a step back from you? Do you *want* to take a step back? Is it reasonable for Samantha to want you to?

If it's not possible, or not reasonable, then every time Samantha "catches" you not being comfortable texting openly, every time she catches you turning to him for emotional support, and every time she catches you enjoying him "too much" during threesome sex, she is going to make you feel like you're cheating. The only alternative is if she makes peace with how close you and Arnold are. Can she do that? Does she *want* to do that? Maybe she remembers the days before Arnold when you turned to her for support, and perhaps enjoyed her more intensely.

Your thoughts are valid, but I don't think you can close the barn door once the horse is out.

WifeandBoyfriend loves her wife, and she's really into her bf. And no one can "make" anyone feel anything. Samantha is not "making" the OP feel this way or that way. We are each responsible for our own emotions. There is, however, a lot of comparing and competing going on, especially in Sam's mind, right now. And she's gay. And she's not that into Arnold anymore, partly because he's a guy, partly because he's a better communicator, partly because she wanted to do poly "together" with her female partner, but sharing a unicorn isn't working out.

It sounds to me like the 2 women caught themselves a unicorn, this shared guy, Arnold. As in most attempted triads, it's an experiment of a couple to Open to a "third" without letting go of their couple privilege. They are the "real" relationship, and the "third" is supposed to be equally shared, and just fit in to their couple as an addition, and not make waves or rock the boat. He's certainly not supposed to be "better" at anything (sex, communication) than either member of the original couple.

He is meant to care about, and be attracted to, both of the 2 original partners scrupulously equally. And each of the 2 (women, in this case) are supposed to be into this guy exactly equally as well.

But, as experienced polyamorists know, this is not the case 99.9% of the time. Each of the original partners actually wants something unique in an OSO. And the "shared" partner almost always starts to prefer one of the partners over the other. And even though the original couple wants to try out this poly thing "together" in order to preserve an illusion of monogamous commitment despite being poly, it is much, much more common for poly couples to date independently, each getting their own OSO.

They fear though, if they were to try that, they'd each become more into their new OSOs, than into each other, and maybe need to break up. That's monogamist programming...

However, on this board and with all of our shared experiences, it's perfectly common to have a poly couple who are both dating independently, not break up, not fall out of love with each other, and be able to balance their dates with others quite well.

There is no need, as you suggest, Kevin, to try and "love the OSO less." There is no need to sneak off to text and OSO. It is perfectly common and acceptable to be able to text while in the room with one's other partner, or to move to another room to do it, openly, if you just want privacy. "I'm gonna go text Arnold for half an hour." "OK, when you get back, we can watch that show, paint that wall, have sex, whatever." And there's no resentment, emotional flood, jealousy or perceived threat. It's just fine.

I think, eventually, Samantha might feel much happier if she let go of the idea to "do this together," and try to share a lover, and instead, open herself to the idea of getting her own OSO. (Probably a woman.)

But it's definitely looking like this enmeshed couple needs to do some detangling first, because they are trying to do poly while at least one of them thinks she should be best at everything, better than any other sweetie at everything, especially better at supportive communication. That's the main issue. Almost as important is that her experiment with dating a guy is giving her all kinds of anxiety and maybe it isn't healthy for her.