You are not enough

[Magdlyn]

...It does help to have M, and see how I can have feelings for both partners.

I’m yet to have it "proven" to me how B will be in this respect. In fact, I think part of my worries is that B left his ex girlfriend for me. They had an Open relationship, and there were some major issues in it.

He identifies a particular incident, many months before he met me, as "the beginning of the end." However, the fact remains that once he fell in love with me, all his romantic feelings for her vanished.

Clearly, I have seen this situation with him happen before, so that scares me... even though I know our relationship [is] very different from theirs.

So, in all your times of doing swinging, he never developed feelings for anyone else? He just kept every sexual relationship completely physical? He was never even fond of someone, or liked someone a lot, and just used their bodies?

As to what type of situation I want: I would like to be polyamorous, in terms of having another meaningful, loving relationship. However, at the moment the thought of him doing the same is way too threatening for me. I know this is unreasonable and unfair...

He is more polysexual than polyamorous, and wants variety, so what I am hoping is that he is able to find people to have friends with benefits type situations with, rather than long term love relationships. In fact, he has said that he doesn't want other "whole" relationships.

[But] you can't make rules about feelings. One of his friends with benefits might become more than that, and I would have to deal with that situation.

Hopefully, if it ever does arrive, we will be much further on in our non- monogamy journey, and I will be in a better place to deal with it. His non-monogamy skills will be in a better place. At the moment he needs to work on those.

Is he doing any research, reading, etc., on the differences between swinging and having FWBs, and how to deal if he ever should develop deeper feelings for someone? How will time be managed? How will you two nurture your relationship, going forward?

Our initial agreements are good, but without going into detail, as I don’t want to be to recognizable, he is having to be more patient than he would like to be (which is in part due to the other lady involved) and is making hurtful mistakes at times.

So, he does have another partner at this time. Is he hurting her?

Magdlyn, thanks for the reminder to look at the other advantages too. I don't lack time to myself at the moment, I lack company. I am very sociable and love being around people.

I guess if you're extroverted, the most convenient way for more social interaction is to have your romantic partner around more. However, it has become obvious he doesn't want to be around more. It's not that you are lacking. It's just not in his nature to be one-on-one with the same person X hours a day/week. He needs variety. Maybe you could fill in the gap by seeking more friends, romantic or otherwise, and making more plans with them. Or join some clubs, etc.

That said, he can't always be off shagging others. For a successful Open relationship of any kind, partners need to be around enough to nurture your dyad, and renegotiate parameters as necessary.

Mostly I like that he is happier and nicer to be around on the whole.

Yes, if he is being true to himself, and you want a bf that is happy and pleasant to be around (who wouldn't?), this is the way to go.

I can see other advantages as we go along, as long as we manage to avoid poly hell type situations!

B has always joked that I needed more than one man... because of my capacity to love, and my sex drive... actually I am too much for him, too much for one man to handle. [Another guy] said a similar thing. So he isn't telling me I am not enough, he is actually telling me I am too much for him to handle on his own ...I may have just answered my own question!

 

[GalaGirl]

In fact, I think part of my worries is that B left his ex girlfriend for me – they had an open relationship and there were some major issues in there relationship. He identitfies a particular incident many months before he met me as ‘the beginning of the end’. However, the fact remains that once he fell in love with me all his romantic feeling for her vanished. So clearly I have seen this sitation with him happen before so that scares me in my fearful moments even though I know our relationship, situation and everything are very different from theirs.

Wow. That's like burying the lead.

If you guys used to be in an Open relationship where he had this other GF (or was he cheating with you on that GF?) and he left her for you? And then did Closed for 5 years with nobody else in the mix? And now he wants to Open again? So your only experience of "Open" with him has either been him dumping the established relationship in favor the of the new relationship or possible cheating and then dumping... no wonder you are anxious. You don't know if it will happen to you.

Hopefully he gets it together, slows down, and stops making hurtful mistakes so you can KNOW this situation is different. But it sucks that to find that out, you have to be willing to take a risk.

As to what type of situation I want – I would like to be polyamourous, in terms of having another meaningful, loving relationship. However, at the moment the thought of him doing the same is way to threatening for me and I know this is unreasonable and unfair but I am just being completely honest.

Makes sense to me. YOU know how you would treat people.

With the experience above, you do not know how HE will treat people today.

His recent past track record doesn't inspire confidence. Not fun. His current track record is one of making hurtful mistakes. Also not fun.

So for him to have a NEW recent track record, you have to risk finding out through new experiences. So he can eventually demonstrate better skills. And hopefully it does gets better.

And you have a counselor for extra support during this uncertain time while waiting to find out.

Galagirl

 

[Tulip]

GalaGirl – again without revealing too much distinguishing detail, him and his ex had a ‘don’t tell policy’ and there was other complications so he wasn’t cheating on her whilst seeing me – it was all within their rules, but then we did fall for each other quickly and it was the catalyst for him to leave her, something he felt would have happened eventually anyway but meeting me kind of hastened the end – we were ‘game changers’ for each other basically.

After he and her split up I agreed to some swinging but nothing more than that. So we weren’t completely closed nor open – I prefered to say we sometimes played with very specific others and these ‘play – times’ were infrequent.

But yes, you are right, my only experience of him in a ‘proper’ open relationship is my initial experience with him. And it is all very anxiety provoking especially with the hurtful mistakes (which are mainly around transparency, and I don’t mean I'm asking anything extreme like wanting to see the messages they send to each other or anything like that) and me needed to try and educate him on how to have a non monogamous relationship in which I can feel comfortable. He kinda thinks he knows it all and gets impatient with me for needed to talk thinks through. I am starting to read ‘opening up’ and will hopefully be able to get him to read certain sections which I think will be good for him as he will listen to ‘the experts’ better than he listens to me – like a lot of men are with their partners, very annoyingly – sorry to generalize a bit here about men but I have seen this with friends too.

 

[Tulip]

Magdlyn – Our swinging experience has been limited and mainly with men and yes we tend to be friends with those we have swung with included the currently lady. She is the only lady really we have had on-going swinging with and yes he does feel affection etc for her and this is part of why he wants to know see her on his own.

He is not doing any reseach or reading but as I said just before I have given him a few articles to read and if he wont read the entirety of the ‘opening up’ book I have started reading I will give him excerpts to read and I think he would be open to doing that.

Is he hurting the lady involved? I would hope not – she is an experienced swinger, in her late 40’s who is actively looking for a primary partner. I presume he has explained to her it would be a ‘friends with benefits’ situation as this is what me and B have agreed that we are able to offer other people at the moment. He thinks he will be able to stick to this (FWB) as he doesn’t want another full on relationship there is not rule on feelings so who knows. But hopefully him and her can have a nice fun time whilst she is looking for her prince charming to come along and no one will get hurt.

And yes, I am making efforts to see friends more, it is easy to get into a comfortable relationship mode where you spend every night cuddled up together watching a film or whatever! And he is saying he is very commited to being with me long term and very invested in our relantionship so he is saying the right things and we still do lots of stuff together so only time will tell :0)

 

[FallenAngelina]

...he will listen to ‘the experts’ better than he listens to me – like a lot of men are with their partners, very annoyingly – sorry to generalize a bit here about men but I have seen this with friends too.

Here's another piece of the lead that you've buried.

Perhaps think more about the men you're drawn to because this isn't "how men are with their partners." I understand the generalization and am not at issue about it, but you might ask yourself why you are drawn to the generalization. I have to say that I have never known men like this - not up close, anyway. There are plenty of men who are attracted to smart, knowledgable women. Why are you attracted to men (as lovers and as friends) who doubt your intelligence and discount what you have to say?

He kinda thinks he knows it all and gets impatient with me for needed to talk thinks through.

Ouch. Again, why are you drawn too someone who belittles your values?

 

[SenatorBinks27]

Yeah, that whole "how men are" is a red flag for me too. Granted, Men are sadly sort of conditioned to that kind of thing by crappy societal norms, but there are plenty of us who push back and rise up against stuff. For my part, speaking as a man, I encourage and require good, clear communication, I love women I can talk to intellectually, and treat everyone as equal human beings because duh they are. If I ever appear to "talk down" to someone in this context, it's either over-explaining stuff because I'm ASD and am used to people from all walks of life not understanding what the hell I'm talking about and I want things to be clear, or if someone's being an unrepentant asshole and I'm done with the interaction.

But I work tirelessly to make sure I listen to partners (or just friends, even), take in what they're saying, and try to help. Even if I don't agree, I try to treat their feelings as valid and try to work on why such a feeling is there if the thing isn't happening. I'm not perfect, I've made mistakes and misspoke, but I try to better myself each time. And everyone, men women and those who lieth betwixt, deserve the same courtesy.

 

[GalaGirl]

And it is all very anxiety provoking especially with the hurtful mistakes (which are mainly around transparency, and I don’t mean I'm asking anything extreme like wanting to see the messages they send to each other or anything like that)

So he can't put on a family Google calendar or similar when he has dates planned with you and dates with her and be transparent about his schedule so you can know how to deal with your time? Or assure you that he's using safer sex practices when you ask? Is that what you mean about transparency?

and me needed to try and educate him on how to have a non monogamous relationship in which I can feel comfortable. He kinda thinks he knows it all and gets impatient with me for needed to talk thinks through.

Well, you are two different people. If he wants to do poly with you on board, he could be more patient about your need to talk. He might "know it all" but you don't.

I am starting to read ‘opening up’ and will hopefully be able to get him to read certain sections which I think will be good for him as he will listen to ‘the experts’ better than he listens to me – like a lot of men are with their partners, very annoyingly – sorry to generalize a bit here about men but I have seen this with friends too.

I don't know what sort of men you hang around with. The ones I know do not do this. I will not hang around with people who dismiss me/ignore me. It's not being kind. So I don't care to keep company.

And he is saying he is very committed to being with me long term and very invested in our relationship so he is saying the right things and we still do lots of stuff together so only time will tell :0)

What KIND of investment? If he doesn't want to be transparent with you, talk to you, or listen to you?

This is true. Only time will tell. So keep reading and learning and tread carefully.

Galagirl

 

[Vicki82]

GalaGirl – again without revealing too much distinguishing detail, him and his ex had a ‘don’t tell policy’ and there was other complications so he wasn’t cheating on her whilst seeing me – it was all within their rules, but then we did fall for each other quickly and it was the catalyst for him to leave her, something he felt would have happened eventually anyway but meeting me kind of hastened the end – we were ‘game changers’ for each other basically.

After he and her split up I agreed to some swinging but nothing more than that. So we weren’t completely closed nor open – I prefered to say we sometimes played with very specific others and these ‘play – times’ were infrequent.

But yes, you are right, my only experience of him in a ‘proper’ open relationship is my initial experience with him. And it is all very anxiety provoking especially with the hurtful mistakes (which are mainly around transparency, and I don’t mean I'm asking anything extreme like wanting to see the messages they send to each other or anything like that) and me needed to try and educate him on how to have a non monogamous relationship in which I can feel comfortable. He kinda thinks he knows it all and gets impatient with me for needed to talk thinks through. I am starting to read ‘opening up’ and will hopefully be able to get him to read certain sections which I think will be good for him as he will listen to ‘the experts’ better than he listens to me – like a lot of men are with their partners, very annoyingly – sorry to generalize a bit here about men but I have seen this with friends too.

Building a box for relationships generally doesn't work out too well. If they catch feelings, what happens then? You can't promise not to feel things for people, and then it could be a situation where they no longer want a FWB type relationship. That's the kind of promise that only makes sense when you're not involved in the situation.

And yeah, I fourth what everyone else is saying. Why on earth would you want to be around men who minimize or dismiss what you have to say? Why would you want to be around anyone who does that, whether a friend or a romantic partner???

 

[JaneQSmythe]

... he will listen to ‘the experts’ better than he listens to me – like a lot of men are with their partners, very annoyingly – sorry to generalize a bit here about men but I have seen this with friends too.

...
Perhaps think more about the men you're drawn to because this isn't "how men are with their partners."

Yeah, that whole "how men are" is a red flag for me too. ...

...I don't know what sort of men you hang around with. The ones I know do not do this. I will not hang around with people who dismiss me/ignore me.

...And yeah, I fourth what everyone else is saying. Why on earth would you want to be around men who minimize or dismiss what you have to say? Why would you want to be around anyone who does that, whether a friend or a romantic partner???

Wow, this has really struck a nerve!

Which goes along with a number of conversations that I have had with men and women about communication styles and gender, vs. internal/external processors vs. Myers-Briggs types etc.

A common cultural explanation is that women are expected to communicate to build consensus and community, while men are expected to compete and demonstrate leadership.

My boys are at opposite ends of the spectrum - Dude goes so far beyond "man-splaining" - that it reaches a whole new level of "Dude-splaining"(*) - this is not reserved for his partners, but every human on the planet, even "experts" aren't experts unless they prove that they know more than him. I recognize this pretty well, as I have a similar bias (the difference is that I am aware of it, and he is not). It also means that we butt heads frequently (pretty much incessantly) - stubborn asses!

MrS is very aware of alternate perspectives and has a very high EQ (emotional intelligence) as well as being extremely intelligent, observant, and empathetic.

Both of them are attracted to strong, intelligent, capable women ... and communicate with them, in their own styles, as "equals".

I bring this up, because what some people view as "dismissive" others might see as opening up for debate - when I question Dude about where and what information he is basing his opinion on, I am not dismissing him (as a person), I am challenging him to show me something that I missed in my interpretation of the available data, or show me evidence that I have not seen. This breaks down, however, when the topic is subjective to the person experiencing the feelings or thought - it doesn't matter if 99 out of 100 people feel this, it ONLY matters what I feel...if the topic is MY FEELINGS!


(*) This term was coined one night after he tried to "educate" me about how to masturbate...with my own vibrator! - just because he didn't want to roll over so the cord could reach...

 

[SenatorBinks27]

I bring this up, because what some people view as "dismissive" others might see as opening up for debate - when I question Dude about where and what information he is basing his opinion on, I am not dismissing him (as a person), I am challenging him to show me something that I missed in my interpretation of the available data, or show me evidence that I have not seen. This breaks down, however, when the topic is subjective to the person experiencing the feelings or thought - it doesn't matter if 99 out of 100 people feel this, it ONLY matters what I feel...if the topic is MY FEELINGS!

This is a good point. Not to make this about me (I'm only using myself as an example because I am a man and we are talking about "men"), but when I do err on stuff like this it's usually on the side of "This information is contrary to what I have heard and would like credibly sourced proof please" and if I don't have the time or energy to say all those words in that way (which is often especially if I'm caught off guard) it can get misinterpreted as being dismissive.

Except
A) I will take credibly sourced information into myself and change my mind/admit I was wrong if it is convincing,
B) I am careful to not use objectively negative statements and terms to describe subjective things (I'm more lenient on positive terms because we need more positivity), and will not judge someone for their tastes as long as it is not harmful.

 

[Vicki82]

Wow, this has really struck a nerve!

Which goes along with a number of conversations that I have had with men and women about communication styles and gender, vs. internal/external processors vs. Myers-Briggs types etc.

A common cultural explanation is that women are expected to communicate to build consensus and community, while men are expected to compete and demonstrate leadership.

My boys are at opposite ends of the spectrum - Dude goes so far beyond "man-splaining" - that it reaches a whole new level of "Dude-splaining"(*) - this is not reserved for his partners, but every human on the planet, even "experts" aren't experts unless they prove that they know more than him. I recognize this pretty well, as I have a similar bias (the difference is that I am aware of it, and he is not). It also means that we butt heads frequently (pretty much incessantly) - stubborn asses!

MrS is very aware of alternate perspectives and has a very high EQ (emotional intelligence) as well as being extremely intelligent, observant, and empathetic.

Both of them are attracted to strong, intelligent, capable women ... and communicate with them, in their own styles, as "equals".

I bring this up, because what some people view as "dismissive" others might see as opening up for debate - when I question Dude about where and what information he is basing his opinion on, I am not dismissing him (as a person), I am challenging him to show me something that I missed in my interpretation of the available data, or show me evidence that I have not seen. This breaks down, however, when the topic is subjective to the person experiencing the feelings or thought - it doesn't matter if 99 out of 100 people feel this, it ONLY matters what I feel...if the topic is MY FEELINGS!


(*) This term was coined one night after he tried to "educate" me about how to masturbate...with my own vibrator! - just because he didn't want to roll over so the cord could reach...

I don't know- I see a pretty clear difference between debating points and dismissing someone/refusing to listen. It's all in the attitude, for me.

I love debates/arguments. I don't tolerate being dismissed out of hand.