Theoretical vs reality

[GroundedSpirit]

Excellent

Thanks to everyone who's weighed in so far. I was glad to see support, both from the moderators and many others, of the applicability of the topic here, because I can't see many other topics that really are more applicable. The reason I say this is because it reflects the reality, and difficulty, of living in a primarily mono culture.

Living poly has sometimes reminded me of concepts expressed in a book called "Tipping Point," an analysis of how certain trends begin and grow, spidering out in many directions until, for whatever reason, they hit a critical mass, a tipping point, when in a short period of time there's suddenly a mass shift.

I intend to quote and address some specific points many of you have posted in another post, as I think they deserve discussion. If it can help clarify the topic any, I'll lay it out here in another fashion.

As I've encountered these situations in real life, there has always been the question of dealing with theoretical absolutes vs stark reality. In other words, which is the better road to take in a particular situation, if we have the chance to enhance someone else's life and happiness, albeit with the (potential) risk of damaging some other unknown person's situation or belief system? That's really at the core of it.

Picture the worst-case scenario, where the person we chose to embrace was in a classic, monogamous and conservative relationship/marriage, with all the trimmings, i.e., a family, property, etc., and had no desire to end that, out of what might be considered selfish motivation. If there were love there (to whatever degree possible, on whatever level), love for children, acceptance of responsibility, etc., and eventually their indiscretion were discovered, a hard conversation would be evoked within that relationship-- a conversation that SHOULD have been had long before this.

One of the results of that conversation would be that someone is going to become suddenly aware of the fact that love, affection and relationships can occur and prosper outside the bounds of the "accepted model." At that point, the new direction the established relationship would take is going to be largely in the newly-enlightened person's hands. They can hold firm to their old worldview and belief systems and refuse to even investigate what this might all mean, or they can take some time to look deeper and research and make a more informed decision.

Now, I ask those of you that would choose to call this a "cop out" or "justification," where do we find substantiation of the concept that WE are 'responsible' for the thoughts and actions of others?

When thinking this through, I might suggest starting with examples of the "don't ask, don't tell" relationships that have and do exist, quite successfully, for eons, and still do. For a reason. But there's a myriad of variations on that model, spanning both extremes. I may get into that separately in another thread.

Is the right direction to take a hands-off, don't-go-there approach, solely because the current model is dominant? When do we cease to empower it?

Interesting question?

Good stuff.

 

[CielDuMatin]

The reason I say this is because it reflects the reality - and difficulty - of living in a primarily 'mono' culture.

Agreed, and we have a choice how many of the "monogamous culture"'s mores and ethics we take on board in our chosen lovestyle.

Living poly has sometimes reminded me of concepts expressed in a book called "Tipping Point" - an analysis of how certain trends begin & grow, spidering out in many directions until for whatever reason they hit a critical mass - a 'tipping point' - when in a short period of time there's suddenly as mass shift.

I agree strongly with you there - I think that acceptance of poly could just as easily come from an evolution (leading to a Tipping Point) as a revolution. Trying to find others who may be struggling (and potentially turning their backs on poly because they feel so alone) and helping them feel part of something, answering their questions and supporting them is part of my goals in the poly community - the more people we have, the closer we are to the Tipping Point.

If we have the chance to enhance someone else's life & happiness albeit with some (potential) risk of damaging some other unknown persons situation or belief system. And that's really at the core of it.

See, for me, that's not the core of it.

The core problem for me is that lying and cheating seem to be becoming more and more accepted in society. That people making promises, whether wedding vows or legal contracts, do it with their fingers crossed behind their backs. Promises become less meaningful and trust gets eroded as a consequence.

When I lived in Germany I seemed to be with a crowd that all cheated on their spouses. What was interesting what that they all thought they were doing it, and their spouses weren't, but I knew the spouses were (and thought they were the only one). The level of trust between these people was horrendously low, but it felt so much like the norm. That's not a world that I want to live in, thank you.

So... making a justification (as I have heard many do) that it makes the person happy, and their spouse is some stranger and I'm not responsible for that would be a cop-out to me. Like disapproving of smoking but buying someone cigarettes as a present - how does that stop them smoking, and how does me having an affair with them stop them from cheating with their supposed loved-one?

Where do we find substantiation of the concept that WE are 'responsible' for the thoughts & actions of others ?

We're not - we're responsible for our own actions and I choose not to buy that person cigarettes - they can get them elsewhere. I am not going to help support them do what I believe is damaging, no matter how they choose to justify it. If others do, that's their choice.

Is the right direction to take a "hands off" / "don't go there" approach solely because the current model is dominant ? When do we cease to empower it ?

We cease to empower it when we choose not to make cheating on a loved one more acceptable than being honest with the people that we supposedly care about.

If having open and honest relationships is a fundamental value we have in common, I don't believe that "becoming the enemy" and supporting and nurturing dishonest relationships is going to move us towards that Tipping Point in any way.

 

[Ceoli]

As I've encountered these situations in real life there has always been the question of dealing with theoretical absolutes vs stark reality.

As I've encountered these situations in real life there has always been the question of my values. I don't see any "theoretical absolutes" in conflict with the reality of the situation, at all.

Picture the worst-case scenario, where the person we chose to embrace was in a classic, monogamous and conservative relationship with all the trimmings, family, property, etc., and had no desire to end that out of what might be considered selfish motivation. If there is love (to whatever degree possible, on whatever level), and love for children, acceptance of responsibility, etc., and eventually their indiscretion were discovered, a hard conversation is going to be evoked within that relationship-- a conversation that SHOULD have been had long before this. One of the results of that conversation would be that someone is going to become suddenly aware of the fact that love, affection and relationships can occur and prosper outside the bounds of the "accepted model". At that point, the new direction the established relationship takes is going to be largely in the newly-enlightened person's hands. They can hold firm to their old worldview and belief systems and refuse to even investigate what this might all mean, or they can take some time to look deeper, and research and make a more informed decision.

For a worst-case scenario, you seem to be laying out quite an idealistic view of the outcome. While that enlightenment may be the outcome for some people, I've seen the wreckage of the other outcome first hand. It involves lives and families being destroyed, and kids being hurt.

I ask those of you that would choose to call this a "cop out" or "justification," where do we find substantiation of the concept that WE are 'responsible' for the thoughts and actions of others?

In terms of romantic relationships, we are responsible for our own thoughts and actions. To think that my getting into a relationship with someone who is cheating on their SO has the chance to somehow "move" their relationship to a more healthy state, and that is a good reason to move forward with them, sidesteps the actual values in question. I simply think that if their relationship needs to move to a healthier place, it's going to be *them* that move it to what's right for *them*. I don't think of it as my place to decide where the health of their relationship should lie, and then choose my actions based on moving along their relationship. I can only make choices for *my* relationships.

But all of that seems to sidestep the actual values involved. Either you feel it's ok to be involved with someone who isn't being honest, or you feel it's not ok. If you feel it's ok, then fine. If you feel it's not ok, but choose to set aside those values with an "ends justify the means" mentality, that's completely your right and your choice to do that. Of course, when you fall hard for someone and those feelings become so strong that the choice feels almost impossible to make, it could feel like theory is bumping into reality. But those values don't go away. Our strong feelings may push us to go one way or the other, but that doesn't change the reality and consequences of the choices we make.

However, that is not a situation of stark reality affecting your choices and negating some theoretical absolute. It's simply a matter of what values you hold in the relationships you seek and whether or not you choose to follow them.

 

[GroundedSpirit]

I'd like to comment on a bunch of very good responses at once. I think this thread has the potential to really splinter, so if any of these comments seem to want to take off on their own, I encourage you to take them and run with them. Otherwise this could get long and convoluted.

The arrangement described is not polyamorous.

As we (hopefully) have discovered, the umbrella term "polyamorous" covers as wide a range of possibilities as there are people.

I might just ask that you just climb down off the high horse and not bother with the personal attacks (count the number of 'you's and 'yours') as they won't contribute much to digging deep into the real topic, or provoke a reaction.

If you are the cheatee, I don't believe that you are the cause, but a symptom of a problem that has nothing to do with you.

It seems there's obvious wisdom in this, that deserves acknowledgement, but unfortunately, it doesn't let us off the hook because of possible repercussions. Therefore the quandary. Back to the question of the "greater good".

No matter how trapped a person feels in a relationship, there is always an option.

Exactly, Mono. And indeed, they are exercising one of them by maybe trying to do what's best for all involved, including themselves, the best way they know how. In situations I've been personally involved in, after I get through the "poly" lecture, I encourage the person to open and explore that topic at home, if possible. But sometimes that seems simply impossible.

If they can't be completely honest with their partner, someone that they supposedly have a committed relationship with, then how can I expect them to be honest with me about issues vital to me?

Yeah, the theory of absolutes. I have yet to meet a person who 'never' lies. Nor have I met a person who has lied to me who 'never' tells the truth.
I think we have to live with that aspect of being human, and keep our lie-detection equipment tuned and oiled. The reason people lie (barring pathological liars) is generally in an attempt to have the best outcome from an unfavorable situation by shielding people from a truth that could be more destructive to them. We've all seen cases where that was wrong-headed, but also cases where it (unfortunately) was the correct choice.

It's not black and white.

"in reality (as long as it stayed under the radar) it was highly beneficial to everyone."
That's a complete and total justification. How is it beneficial to everyone to hide and lie and cheat on someone you love?

Hm. I'm not entirely sure I agree with this. I would not have cheated on my husband if the person I had the affair with didn't encourage our relationship to continue and become a party to my lies. He was complicit. He called me when I told him he could, sent me things to my office, not my house, etc. Was he involved in the problems in my marriage? No. But I wouldn't have cheated (with him) if he hadn't made himself available and been very clear that he didn't care that I was married and that we were going to lie to my spouse.

Would I have cheated with someone else later? I honestly don't know. I know that there's every possibility that my husband and I would be divorced right now, because it was cheating that led me to realizing I could love two people at once, an therefore led me to learning about poly. It was cheating that made me realize that there *could* be an ethical way to be with my husband and led me to open a discussion with him on the subject, as well as to ask him back into our home to try to work this out. If it weren't for that, I probably would have left him and pursued another monogamous relationship.

It seems you have answered your own question, to a small degree, here. But, in another example, I've seen where the indicted cheater's home life and relationship actually improved because of decreased tension and pent up anger/frustration from being locked into an unfulfilled life.

The situation was not black and white. He was in a relationship that had no affection, physical, emotional, sexual. I would say, in fact, that he was being constantly verbally abused, and so worn down by this that he didn't believe he could leave,

Yeah, Jools. In these cases, it seems your involvement only accelerated a course that was probably inevitable. We've seen that too, albeit from a distance, and didn't condemn the person in your role for the participation in what was an obvious direction.

Like it or not, there are a lot of people who have discovered that they were poly because of an affair, and realized that while their behavior was wrong and then made right of the situation. Should we be discounting their experience that brought them where they are today? I don't think so.

Nikki, I think this speaks well to the possible outcomes which I hinted at in a follow-up post. The potential IS there for all involved parties to turn this into a positive life change. It's up to the parties involved. It kinds of leans to the statement that "Guns don't kill people. People kill people." You kind of find yourself in the role of the gun. The fact that you are a gun, and not a hammer, or an iron lawn ornament, is just what is.

Thanks, everyone, for your insights.

 

[GroundedSpirit]

Ceoli,

Nice insights and comments. Thank you.

As I've encountered these situations in real life, there has always been the question of my values.

Question: when you/we talk about values, are we speaking of belief systems? (Probably a separate thread.) I'm assuming, as it relates to this topic that, for example, one belief system might entail holding to a 'don't touch' policy of anyone in an existing relationship without full disclosure to all because of the risk of danger? That I understand, the 'classic' view.

For a worst-case scenario, you seem to be laying out quite an idealistic view of the outcome.

Only ONE possible outcome. I do acknowledge all the less favorable ones. But the question remains: do we never risk moving forward in the fear of moving backwards? My theory is that each case, and the risks, have to be evaluated individually. I just can't connect with black/white in this regard.

To think that my getting into a relationship with someone who is cheating on their SO has the chance to somehow "move" their relationship to a more healthy state, and that is a good reason to move forward with them, sidesteps the actual values in question. I simply think that if their relationship needs to move to a healthier place, it's going to be *them* that move it to what's right for *them*.

And isn't it in fact 'them' that are trying to 'move'? And how do we respond? Assist, or stand idly by and wish them luck? Either of which, by the way, I feel are appropriate choices, depending on the situation.

 

[Ceoli]

I'm assuming as it relates to this topic that one belief system might entail holding to a 'don't touch' policy of anyone in an existing relationship, without full disclosure to all because of the risk of danger. That I understand, the 'classic' view.

No, it entails valuing relationships where there can be full honesty. There's a bit of a difference in that. And I'm not sure what you mean by calling it the "classic" view. Is that to say that it is an old view that is due for some evolving? I'm not sure, but there seems to be that implication, so I'll just ask if that's the case.

Only ONE possible outcome. I do acknowledge all the less favorable ones. Do we never 'risk' moving forward in the fear of moving backwards? My theory is that each case and its risks have to be evaluated individually. I just can't connect with black and white in this regard.

I never said that it had to be black and white. But evaluating the risks doesn't change the basic choice at hand. The risk assessment just lends weight to choose in a particular direction. So if one sees a benefit worth all the risks in moving forward with a relationship with someone who is cheating on their SO, one is still making the choice that is either aligned with values that say it's ok to have such a relationship, or one is choosing to move forward, despite values that say it's not ok.

Isn't it 'them' that are trying to 'move'? How do we respond? Assist, or stand idly by and wish them luck? Either of which, by the way, I feel are appropriate choices, depending on the situation.

A person choosing to cheat on their SO isn't a "them." It's that individual person. I don't think that person has the right to do things on the other person's behalf, such as "move their relationship forward" in such a dishonest and one-sided way. I've been faced with the situation of falling for a person who was cheating. We didn't have a romantic relationship because I wouldn't allow it. So we became friends. We talked a lot about her issues with her girlfriend, and I offered what perspective I could.

But I don't see how enabling the behavior which is problematic helps. If you consider that being dishonest, and that cheating is sometimes appropriate, that's one thing. While I understand that there are some very powerful reasons people cheat, and that people who do cheat aren't necessarily horrible or dishonest by nature, they are still making a choice to do something that is dishonest and potentially hurtful. I choose to not contribute to that method of "moving someone else's relationship forward."

 

[GroundedSpirit]

CielDuMatin,

Nice post and good points.

The core problem for me is that lying and cheating seem to be becoming more and more accepted in society, that people making promises, whether wedding vows or legal contracts, do it with their fingers crossed behind their backs. Promises become less meaningful and trust gets eroded as a consequence.

I couldn't possibly agree more. And I think there's a general shift happening there in the way of a desire to live more genuinely and transparently. But we're not there yet.

As an individual I'm also especially sensitive to any 'extremist' viewpoints. Call me a 'relativist' (but that's extreme too). The danger of extremist viewpoints is evident all around us, from politics to religion. The reality is that the world is simply not black and white, and therefore can't be navigated successfully in that manner. Even a plant, given the correct environment, will grow straight toward the light. Lacking that environment, it will bend and twist itself as necessary to get there. Such is the nature of things.

When I lived in Germany I seemed to be with a crowd that all cheated on their spouses. But I knew the spouses were (and thought they were the only one). The level of trust between these people was horrendously low.

Not to sidetrack the topic, but having a few European friends also (Austria/Belgium), I really wonder whether what you witnessed (and how it was expressed to you) was, down deep, just an extension of their culture, basically a "don't ask, don't tell," which is VERY prevalent there, kind of painted over with a coating that was acceptable to the casual observer. Down deep, it may have been more of a general acceptance of "I'm 'cheating on her,' but I assume she's 'cheating' on me too, so... hell, it's only sex!" Not the way it should be, but yet a step forward in some regards, banishment of jealousy (as much as possible).

Like disapproving of smoking, but buying someone cigarettes as a present. How does that stop them smoking?

Yeah, I see what you are saying. But I fall back here too, to my avoidance of extremism in any form. For example, I see smoking banned on whole properties, even in the great outdoors, in places where it would be entirely possible for a person to smoke far away from any other person. Rules based on (supposedly) high ideals (good intentions), and freedom squashed. Dangerous ground to tread!

We cease to empower it when we choose not to make cheating on a loved one more acceptable than being honest with the people that we supposedly care about.

And don't you find it interesting that the hidden underlying piece of this is solely (or primarily) sex? Were the mentioned persons only connecting outside the relationship on a shared passion for say, music, wouldn't the whole dynamic be so entirely different? No need (usually) to lie or hide.

Hmm... what really is at the root of this whole discussion, indeed?

 

[lovefromgirl]

Ceoli's experience, that is-- of affairs being damaging to all involved-- is mine too. Though my family did not come apart at the seams, I still wonder whenever my father ventures out with someone not my mother, and so does she. Something fundamental between us got broken when I was twelve. I think it's called "trust."

Short of being so screwed mentally that you don't know what you're doing, I don't think there is an excuse for keeping a secret like that. Married and unhappy? Try solving the problem with your partner, and if that doesn't work, get a divorce before you look elsewhere. Think you're poly? Bring it up with the one you're with first, and then go forward weighing whether poly overrides the existing relationship.

Yes, even if you're gay and frustrated, there is no reason you can't tell your partner "It's not you, it's your plumbing, and I just don't feel for you what you want me to feel." I respected someone who failed completely on that count. He's still my friend, but I've gone through hell reconciling what he did with my own pain from years ago.

And if I found out a lover of mine was using me to cause hir partner pain? Gone. That's my dealbreaker. I am nobody's dirty little secret. I deserve to be counted. I deserve legitimacy. No sex, no love, is worth the betrayed party's pain. Period.

 

[GroundedSpirit]

Though my family did not come apart at the seams, I still wonder whenever my father ventures out with someone not my mother, and so does she. Something fundamental between us got broken when I was twelve. I think it's called "trust."

Lovefromgirl,

This was an important point. Trust, once violated, is not easy to get back. But WOW, when it does! Dealing with that issue absolutely will force people to dig deep into their souls and behaviors and bring understanding that might have never been possible in any other way. It's like taking 12 years of psychology courses in three months!

I've experienced that awakening in my relationship (although not around love/sex, etc.), and can only tell you that it truly did move our whole relationship to another level. Understanding that things we do that impact us both have to be 100% accessible, if not in advance, at minimum on request, just emphasizes how closely we're connected.

 

[crisare]

Where do we find substantiation of the concept that WE are 'responsible' for the thoughts and actions of others?

You're not. You're responsible for your own actions. And when you PARTICIPATE in a relationship that is a betrayal of another person's promises, trust, honesty, and openness, then you are equally a liar, a betrayer, and a cheater. Those are your actions and you *are* responsible for your thoughts and actions.

I'm sorry if that seems harsh to you, but it's how I feel.

The whole, "He'd have cheated anyway, so it might as well be with me, and that doesn't make me responsible," is a cop-out.

If you knew a man was going to kill someone and you provided him with a gun, knowing that he would use it to kill with, aren't you responsible in some way? Or would you say, "Oh, well. He'd have gotten a gun somewhere anyway, or he'd have used a knife, so I might as well have given him mine"?

I'm sorry, I don't see the "gray" area that you want everyone else to see here. I really don't. As I said, I've done it and I tried all those justifications to make myself feel better. But the truth is that this is pretty black and white, IMO.

 

[MonoVCPHG]

Human beings have a tendency to not learn from the mistakes of others. We have a sick need to experience the results of shitty decisions for ourselves. I suffered from this too. But after experiencing something, I have no problem climbing on my high horse from a position of knowledge and expressing my views.

There is no excuse to turn a blind eye to partners' actions. If a person says I wouldn't engage in an affair, but then has a relationship with someone who has an unaware partner, their original statement is null and void… it is bullshit. Values are not generally something turned on and off to suit specific situations. If you are with a person who is having an affair, then you are having an affair.

Affairs might reflect the ability to love more than one person, which is a part of being poly, but affairs are not indicative of poly behaviour. I do not associate having affairs with polyamorous behaviour, nor do I associate them with monogamous behaviour. I associate them with destructive behaviour. This is my experience, my observation, my opinion.

Would I be a child molester if my partner was? No. Am I directly hurting that child? No. But turning a blind eye to that would be hurting that child. Turning a blind eye to that would be perpetuating and enabling that behaviour. Nothing would be learned and lives would be damaged.

 

[crisare]

I do not associate having affairs with polyamorous behaviour, nor do I associate them with monogamous behaviour. I associate them with destructive behaviour.

Mono, you are brilliant and I love you! (Um... with all respect to Redpepper, of course! )

Seriously, that's the perfect way to phrase that.

 

[CielDuMatin]

Yea, the theory of absolutes. I have yet to meet a person who 'never' lies. Nor have I met a person who has lied to me who 'never' tells the truth. I think we have to live with that aspect of being human and keep our lie detection equipment tuned and oiled. The reason people lie (barring pathological liars) is generally in an attempt to have the best outcome from an unfavorable situation by shielding people from a truth that could be more destructive to them. We've all seen cases where that was wrong-headed but also cases where it (unfortunately) was the correct choice. Not B/W.

No, not the theory of absolutes at all. It's about gathering data points on people's activities and extrapolating from them.

If you are a business owner and you know that someone habitually shoplifts from all the stores around you, would you tend to believe that they would shoplift from you, or not? Wouldn't it at least make you cautious?

If someone has made vows to another person to love, honor and be together till death us do part, and then wants to have a fling with me and not tell their spouse - what are the odds (not black and white - odds) that they might not tell me the complete truth about something important to do with the relationship? You build trust with people by observing how the deal with other people and how they deal with you - you try to build a picture of that person given the data. The fact that they can lie to their back teeth to someone they made that sort of level of commitment to paints a pretty darned significant red flag into my picture of them.

Is it possible that they may tell you the truth? Of course it is. It's also possible that their spouse might come after you with an Axe when they find out. That's not "healthy".

 

[Ariakas]

Human beings have a tendency to not learn from the mistakes of others. We have a sick need to experience e the results of shitty decisions for ourselves. I suffered from this too.

I definitely relate to this, and am quite happy by it. My mistakes are mine and belong to me. The reason is simple. I hope to succeed where others have failed. There are many things in life over my 34 years that if I had not done it because someone else failed or couldn't do it.

Sorry about the hijack. I always find that point of view interesting, as it was the biggest argument, and in the end, divide between my father and me.

 

[redpepper]

There are many links on here to cheating, btw. If one were to do a search for tagged threads or a general search about cheating, there are many. Just to let anyone know, and in terms of whether or not this thread has value on a poly forum, and if you want more reading

I went for coffee with someone yesterday that I have never met before. He is new to the community, and as I am very much involved, he got a hold of me and wanted to "talk shop." He and his wife were talking about poly for years, and were well on their way to setting some boundaries and relationship rules, when he met and fell in love with someone. He let his NRE get away with him, as did she. She identified as poly, and had several lovers, so she should've known better, but didn't.

Anyway, they slept together twice, and after the second time, they both broke down and decided not to ever see each other again. His wife found out what had happened and left him for a week. When she came back. she told him that because they were so co-dependent she didn't have the strength now to leave him for good. If she had found out before he had slept with her that he was intending to, and that their friendship had gotten out of hand, she would have left then, because she had strength to, still.

He is now having to step waaaaay back and start again building trust, if in fact they ever can. It seems to have proven that he really is poly, in that he was very much in love with both of them, but has, unfortunately, also proven that he struggles with the way to actually achieve his goal of being so in real life. Essentially, he thinks that he may have saved his marriage due to his cheating. I disagreed entirely. He has just made his wife more co-dependent and has damaged their relationship possibly even more so, because of it.

 

[Fidelia]

The arrangement described is not polyamorous.

I might just ask that you just climb down off the high horse and not bother with the personal attacks.

I have not attacked you personally, Mr. Spirit. I have disagreed (adamantly, wholeheartedly, and with every fiber of my being) with your position and with the actions you have self-reported to have taken in the past. I continue to do so, and will continue to do so. As one of the many of people who have been seriously harmed by the arrangement you've described, I can do no less. If you find offense where none was offered or intended, so be it.

There are many areas of human life which are subject to discussion, negotiation and debate among reasonable persons. There are, however, some areas where issues are very clear and may be concisely expressed. Such as:

Lying is wrong.​

Cheating is wrong.​

​

Just as​

Stealing is wrong, and​

Murder is wrong.​

In general, and with no particular persons in mind specifically, I may unequivocally state that people who lie are liars. People who cheat are cheaters. People who steal are thieves. People who commit murder are murderers. And people who make room for such activities in their lives, or who aid and abet such activities, will face the consequences of thier actions, as all people do.

Again, I state that the arrangement you describe is not polyamory, if polyamory is defined as multiple loving relationships between consenting adults.

And since you brought it up, yes, my horse is high, thank you, and from the saddle I can see far and ride fast.

 

[mez]

There are some areas where issues are very clear and may be concisely expressed. Such as:

Lying is wrong.​

Cheating is wrong.​

​

Just as​

Stealing is wrong​

I may unequivocally state that people who lie are liars. People who cheat are cheaters. People who steal are thieves. People who make room for such activities in their lives, or who aid and abet such activities, will face the consequences of thier actions, as all people do.

This absolutism really causes me problems and leaves me upset, because I am a liar and have stolen.

I will explain. I have lied to people quite frequently. In the past, at my old job I purposely and with intent told suicidal people that their knives had gone missing from their kitchen, having pocketed them all and handed them on to authorities. I have stolen shotgun shells off the shelf of a suicidal man that intended to kill himself with his shot gun. I've told people I had no idea where their tablets were when I pocketed them. I guess you can get me on a kind of cheating too, on this basis. This list isn't exhaustive and I will hang my head in shame at your external judgement.

I thankfully add that I haven't murdered anyone.

I could add that in regards to having stolen, a large number of transported 'criminals' that stole bread to survive make up a fair proportion of the ancestors of Australians.

 

[Ceoli]

I have lied to people at my old job. I told suicidal people that their knives had gone missing from their kitchen, having handed them on to authorities, [...]. I guess you can get me on a kind of cheating too. I will hang my head in shame at your external judgement.

This is why I prefer to talk about making choices that honor your values, rather than absolutes of "right" and "wrong". Sometimes we do things that line up with our values, other times we don't. Ideally, we lean more towards our values rather than away. Ideally, those values would involve respect and care for the people and life around them, but this can't always be the case, alas.

 

[CielDuMatin]

This is why I prefer to talk about making choices that honor your values rather than absolutes of "right" and "wrong". Sometimes we do things that line up with our values, other times we don't. Ideally, we lean more towards our values rather than away. Ideally, those values would involve respect and care for the people and life around them, but this can't always be the case, alas.

Very good point, Ceoli! It also means that when you meet others with drastically different values than you, you can think of it in those terms, rather than thinking that they are somehow "right" or "wrong" for believing what they do.

 

[NeonKaos]

Very good point, Ceoli! It also means that when you meet others with drastically different values than you, you can think of it in those terms, rather than thinking that they are somehow "right" or "wrong" for believing what they do.

I would think of it as "wrong" if an outsider decided to take it upon him or herself to "help" me with my relationship(s) without my knowledge and agreement, even if it was in accordance with that individual's "values". I don't need any "favors" like that - I can handle my own business just fine thank you very much.