How do you rebuild trust?

[purplepeach72]

Background - N & I have been married 3 years, together for 5 years. Our marriage has always been open and was built with the understanding that I am bi and poly. Until recently N did not identify as being poly at all. We had a relationship plan detailing how we engaged with others and each other but it was written with only me being poly. Up until we moved overseas 2 years ago we were active in the swinging community and exploring how my poly would work in our relationship. N did not believe that he was capable of loving multiple women.

Problem - Last week I discovered that N has been having an emotional affair and believes he is in love with another woman, M. They have been friends and colleges for many years but he told me she was aware of our marriage years ago. He lied to me about this woman for years. He also lied to her about being married. He came clean with her about 3 weeks ago but I found out last week after he got defensive and told me if I didn't believe him I could read his emails. Which I did at a later date. I also discovered he had a sexual affair with a woman he is not emotionally attached to and did not disclose to me. This is the 2nd time in our marriage he has had a one night stand or brief sexual encounter without being honest about it until a much later date. I had no problem forgiving his other past indiscretions but the emotional betrayal of him becoming poly has made me question the very foundations of our relationship.

He wants to continue his exploration of the relationship he has been discussing with M. They believe they are in love with each other but have not been together physically. I am supposed to have veto power over any and all additional people just as he does but I feel like if I veto her then our marriage will suffer. I also don't want to take away his first poly love. I know how painful it is to be required to give up someone you love and don't want to do that to him. I have agreed to trying to work through this with him.

As soon as he told his new love that he had allowed me to read his email she required him to resend his agreement to allow me access to their correspondence siting her need for privacy. From everything I read before that was revoked, it appeared that she expected to have an equal standing with him to what I have. He says that she no longer expects this. He swears he has no intentions of leaving me or of her trying to take my primary position but I do not know how to rebuild the broken trust with him. He seems to think that it should just go away and I just have to trust him again.

I have also tried to reach out to her in an effort to befriend her as I feel that if she and I had open honest communication separate from him that would go a long way to reassuring me. He says that she feels like I am asking her to be a spy. The uncertainty of whether they will even click in person lead me to encourage him to have her come visit him while he is away from home for work and that is being arranged.

I feel hurt, betrayed, confused and alone. I only have one close friend who is also poly and been in anything similar. Due to the community we live in here we are not able to be open about our lifestyle other than me being open with my therapist. I cannot understand why he was unable to be honest with me about this from the beginning. I would have fully supported his exploration with her. Now everything is clouded by the lies and betrayal.

I'm going to visit him this weekend in an attempt for us to work through some of this by rewriting our relationship plan/contract and I have asked him for a post-nuptial legal document that would give me some protection should he decide to leave me for another woman. I would really appreciate hearing from those of you who have managed to rebuild broken trust and faith. I am trying really hard to move forward but I can't stop thinking that there is so much more to this that what I know or that he's telling her something totally different that what he tells me.

Thank you for listening and for your help.
Hurting and confused,
L

 

[kdt26417]

Hi L,

Well first of all, who says you *should* rebuild trust? Perhaps this man who you thought you knew is actually a chameleon. You wonder if there's more to this than what you know, or if he's telling M something totally different that what he tells you. What evidence is there that he's not doing these things? This is a question that has to be asked. I even think he should be asked.

If you do get past those initial questions, then I think it's a question of how to rebuild emotional trust. Which isn't something that can happen overnight. It takes time and repeated demonstrations on his part that you can trust him again.

Perhaps you could ask yourself what sorts of things *he* could do to rebuild your trust. Then ask for those things, hoping he's willing.

M doesn't sound like she's warmly inclined towards you, and I don't think you'll be able to get anywhere with her. Not for quite awhile anyway.

I'm sorry you are hurting right now.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[GalaGirl]

I am sorry.

You sound all in a muddle. Maybe a little shock.

I have faith that you will recover from it even though it is rough right now.

You just don't have to keep participating with him. That's another question to consider separately.

I don't think any amount of rewriting agreements will solve the basic things -- for whatever reason,

• He is ok making agreements he does not intend to keep
• He does not give an honest "No, I cannot agree to that. I am not able to to do that."
• He's ok picking cheating behaviors rather than honoring his agreements.

He doesn't sound like a person of strong character to me. He sounds like an emotionally risky person to be with to me.

Three cheating affairs... that you know of. Three cheating affairs to me is not "it was a mistake in judgement." It sounds more like a habit to me. A mistake can happen. We learn from it. This is 3 times of deliberately choosing that behavior and not caring to modify it and practice self control. He has a way to pursue her without being cheater-y. He chose not to use it.

I have a boundary of no lying, and 3 strikes I am out. If we revisit same issue over and over, it shows me the person I am with is NOT learning from mistakes or serious about changing behaviors or honoring agreements. I don't need to stick around for "same old song, different day" stuff that I do not enjoy. Me keeping that 3 strikes boundary prevents me from letting my soft feelings for a person tempt me to KEEP putting me in the line of fire. I am responsible for my own well being. I can count to 3. With regrets I might bow out, but I will bow out at 3. I am not up for shenanigans.

Maybe your limit of tolerance is a different number than me. But please consider having one for your own well being. It's not going to be you choosing to stay despite 100 cheating affairs, right? 1000? A million?

You doing loving behaviors toward someone is not enough for it to be a healthy dynamic between you. Your partner also has to demonstrate loving behaviors toward you.

This is not loving behavior to me.

He wants to continue his exploration of the relationship he has been discussing with M.

Don't focus on what he wants or what he does with M or not do with M.

Focus on what YOU want in YOUR relationships.

Are you willing to continue to participate in a relationship with a habitual liar? Habitual cheater? Is this healthy for you?

I am supposed to have veto power over any and all additional people just as he does but I feel like if I veto her then our marriage will suffer.

How's his cheating for a 3rd time HELPING your marriage avoid suffering?

Could stop making it be about veto of people. Could make it be about behavior you are willing to put up with and behavior you are not. I think that is really what "veto" is under the hood: "My willingness to continue to participate here if you do a behavior."

Sometimes the behavior is "start dating person X" so people think it is about person X. It is not. It is the behavior.

The behavior here is "cheating/lying to me."

Because even if she disappeared, the problem still remains.

"I have a lying/cheating hubby who does not / will not change his ways."​

Your willingness to participate belongs to you. You decide what you are up for and not up for.

Are you ok participating here with that kind of behavior? You do not sound like it.

Are you willing to continue to participate in relationship with a known liar/cheater? You do not sound like it.

And you are really sad about it.

In the end, only he controls how he chooses to behave. You control your behavior -- and in this case it boils down to your "choosing to participate here with all this" or "choosing to stop participating"

Only you can decide that.

I cannot understand why he was unable to be honest with me about this from the beginning

Because he has a lying/cheating habit. He also lied to HER, remember? It's his way of going. His talk does not match his walk.He doesn't sound like a safe person to be with to me. I wouldn't even go there any more. But I am not you.

I would suggest taking a time out to think. So you can decide what you want to do.

• Do self care. You sound in shock. Sleep, eat on time, stick to your routines, etc.
  
• Do seek a friend and/or counselor to help with help organizing your thoughts. Articulate what YOUR deal breakers in relationships are. How many strikes before you are out of a situation you find ugh? Are you at that place here with him? Then let it go.
  
• All the strikes are not used up? Do move forward with a post nuptial if you decide to continue in the marriage. Protect yourself. Do list behaviors he has to do to help heal this rift. I don't know if this could help any in your process.

Again, I am so sorry. It's not a fun thing you are dealing with. But it has to be dealt with all the same.

Hang in there.

Galagirl

 

[tenK]

On paper, it sounds like your husband is behaving like a stereotypical monogamous person, dealing with an attraction for another in sneaky ways because they don't know how else to deal with it. Even though you expect him to have the skills, having been part of a mono-poly setup for years with you, of open and honest communication, he is resorting to lying and cheating. I can completely understand your frustration here. I just wonder if it hasn't been you that has, in a sense, been carrying the partnership in openness and honesty all these years, and whether he has ever been able to wrap his head around the ideas behind polyamory. We all know how hard it is to unlearn entrenched behaviours. In spite of the fact that he sees you practise good communication skills regularly, he is defaulting to cheating behaviours like he sees no other choice for himself. And that is troubling. Either he likes having a 'secret' and part of his interest in these women is the clandestine nature of the affairs themselves, or he's not got the skills to handle multiple relationships at all yet, in spite of ample opportunities to figure it out over the years.

I kind of hope it's the latter, because that is something he can work on. It's perhaps unfair for you (and me!) to assume that just because you've been exposed to poly, inevitably worked through some issues of dealing with your partner being a hinge, have seen how they manage multiple relationships in a way that is not detrimental to the one between the pair of you, that you automatically know how to put those skills into practise yourself. This is his first time as a hinge, and in Galagirl's words, he is wonky. To me, that seems forgivable. But I would need to be sure that that is what is going on here, that he genuinely wants openness in his dealings with me and other lovers, before I invest any more in the relationship.

You say that he has always felt he couldn't love more than one person at a time, and that's the bit I would focus on if I were you. Has this changed for him now? Why has this changed for him? Does he realise that his behaviour and ways of managing his (now multiple) relationships also needs to change (i.e. it's not the same as having two mono relationships running side by side)? Is his partner on board with this or is she expecting this to be just like dating a single guy with no commitments? Most importantly, is he still committed to a relationship with you at all? I think only when you have answers to those questions can you start to rebuild trust. You've had a shock, realised that you and he are on different pages, perhaps even on different books, and now you need to recalibrate so you are back on the same page with each other BEFORE you can pick up where you left off. Honestly, that might be easier to do if M is out of the picture for a bit, but I understand why you don't want to ask that of him and I admire you for it. I hope he appreciates it too, and doesn't get lost in NRE la-las on top of everything else after he visits her. I know this is tough, but I hope that you can keep talking and get to the bottom of his deceit. Ultimately, you do have to let that go in order for you both to move forwards, so he's right about that, but a major part of healing from a breach of trust is understanding it in all of its complexity so you can both learn from it and see why that would never happen again.

 

[purplepeach72]

"Should" we rebuild trust more than how

Hi L,

Well first of all, who says you *should* rebuild trust? Perhaps this man who you thought you knew is actually a chameleon. You wonder if there's more to this than what you know, or if he's telling M something totally different that what he tells you. What evidence is there that he's not doing these things? This is a question that has to be asked. I even think he should be asked.

If you do get past those initial questions, then I think it's a question of how to rebuild emotional trust. Which isn't something that can happen overnight. It takes time and repeated demonstrations on his part that you can trust him again.

Perhaps you could ask yourself what sorts of things *he* could do to rebuild your trust. Then ask for those things, hoping he's willing.

M doesn't sound like she's warmly inclined towards you, and I don't think you'll be able to get anywhere with her. Not for quite awhile anyway.

I'm sorry you are hurting right now.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.

Hey Kevin,
Thank you for taking the time to reply. I appreciate it. Asking myself the "should I rebuild trust" is the hardest for me. My heart says without a doubt "Yes" but my brain is questioning if that is truly possible and if so how to do it. I want to make sure that this isn't a pattern that will keep repeating itself. I've invested myself heavily in making this marriage work but I know I can't do that alone.

You are absolutely right about asking the hard questions of him and that is why I'm going to spend the weekend with him. He has shared bits and pieces of his communication with M and it appears that he is now being honest with her about our relationship and how she will fit into that. However, I haven't seen anything from her agreeing or accepting the lesser role required now that she knows he is in a committed open marriage. I think at the root of it I would feel much better if I could see the entire conversations between them for a specific period of time, perhaps the first few months of this new relationship. I don't understand her need to keep their communications private unless there is something to hide. I also don't feel that asking for that is unreasonable.

I'm trying to come up with other ways he can demonstrate his desire to rebuild our trust. Some of them he is already doing by making a point of putting my need to see him and talk to him above everything else and by staying emotionally connected with me instead of retreating and shutting me out. Those aren't enough to assure me that this won't happen again.

I'll post again after our weekend together but thank you again for listening and helping.
Kindly,
LeeAnn

 

[purplepeach72]

Hard decisions ahead

I am sorry.

You sound all in a muddle. Maybe a little shock.

I have faith that you will recover from it even though it is rough right now.

You just don't have to keep participating with him. That's another question to consider separately.

I don't think any amount of rewriting agreements will solve the basic things -- for whatever reason,

• He is ok making agreements he does not intend to keep
• He does not give an honest "No, I cannot agree to that. I am not able to to do that."
• He's ok picking cheating behaviors rather than honoring his agreements.

He doesn't sound like a person of strong character to me. He sounds like an emotionally risky person to be with to me.

Three cheating affairs... that you know of. Three cheating affairs to me is not "it was a mistake in judgement." It sounds more like a habit to me. A mistake can happen. We learn from it. This is 3 times of deliberately choosing that behavior and not caring to modify it and practice self control. He has a way to pursue her without being cheater-y. He chose not to use it.

I have a boundary of no lying, and 3 strikes I am out. If we revisit same issue over and over, it shows me the person I am with is NOT learning from mistakes or serious about changing behaviors or honoring agreements. I don't need to stick around for "same old song, different day" stuff that I do not enjoy. Me keeping that 3 strikes boundary prevents me from letting my soft feelings for a person tempt me to KEEP putting me in the line of fire. I am responsible for my own well being. I can count to 3. With regrets I might bow out, but I will bow out at 3. I am not up for shenanigans.

Maybe your limit of tolerance is a different number than me. But please consider having one for your own well being. It's not going to be you choosing to stay despite 100 cheating affairs, right? 1000? A million?

You doing loving behaviors toward someone is not enough for it to be a healthy dynamic between you. Your partner also has to demonstrate loving behaviors toward you.

This is not loving behavior to me.



Don't focus on what he wants or what he does with M or not do with M.

Focus on what YOU want in YOUR relationships.

Are you willing to continue to participate in a relationship with a habitual liar? Habitual cheater? Is this healthy for you?



How's his cheating for a 3rd time HELPING your marriage avoid suffering?

Could stop making it be about veto of people. Could make it be about behavior you are willing to put up with and behavior you are not. I think that is really what "veto" is under the hood: "My willingness to continue to participate here if you do a behavior."

Sometimes the behavior is "start dating person X" so people think it is about person X. It is not. It is the behavior.

The behavior here is "cheating/lying to me."

Because even if she disappeared, the problem still remains.

"I have a lying/cheating hubby who does not / will not change his ways."​

Your willingness to participate belongs to you. You decide what you are up for and not up for.

Are you ok participating here with that kind of behavior? You do not sound like it.

Are you willing to continue to participate in relationship with a known liar/cheater? You do not sound like it.

And you are really sad about it.

In the end, only he controls how he chooses to behave. You control your behavior -- and in this case it boils down to your "choosing to participate here with all this" or "choosing to stop participating"

Only you can decide that.



Because he has a lying/cheating habit. He also lied to HER, remember? It's his way of going. His talk does not match his walk.He doesn't sound like a safe person to be with to me. I wouldn't even go there any more. But I am not you.

I would suggest taking a time out to think. So you can decide what you want to do.

• Do self care. You sound in shock. Sleep, eat on time, stick to your routines, etc.
  
• Do seek a friend and/or counselor to help with help organizing your thoughts. Articulate what YOUR deal breakers in relationships are. How many strikes before you are out of a situation you find ugh? Are you at that place here with him? Then let it go.
  
• All the strikes are not used up? Do move forward with a post nuptial if you decide to continue in the marriage. Protect yourself. Do list behaviors he has to do to help heal this rift. I don't know if this could help any in your process.

Again, I am so sorry. It's not a fun thing you are dealing with. But it has to be dealt with all the same.

Hang in there.

Galagirl

Dear Galagirl,
Thank you for your reply. It was hard to read but also something I very much needed to hear. This relationship is not one that I expected to have to confront leaving at any point. I felt that our agreements to be honest and work through our differences would keep me from having to set a limit beyond which I would have to leave or risk damage to myself. I have to set limits for what I am willing to put up with and allow.

You're also right that I have to stop focusing on his relationship with M, on him at all. I have to focus on myself and how to move forward. I am not a person to put up with repetitious lying and cheating. I've worked very hard in my life to be the healthy loving adult I am today. I have to set a limit going forward and be willing to terminate this relationship if he can't live up to his agreements. I respect your position and opinion of him but please try to understand that this forum gives a very limited view of him. There are many ways that he is a honorable, trustworthy and loving partner. I do have to decide if this is a character flaw or a situational lack of judgment. I've already made the decision to stay in this relationship but I have to face the hard truth that I may have to leave it if things don't improve.

I am in therapy and will have my therapist help me work through new limits, boundaries and ways to protect myself in the future. Joining this forum was another way for me to seek more support and I'm thankful for the acceptance and support here. Drafting a post-nuptial agreement is a top priority but I'm having trouble knowing and deciding what all should be included and how to word it. If you have any advice or could point me in a good direction for examples I'd be grateful.

I am trying to take care of myself and not be mired in this. It is difficult to deal with but I have never been the kind of person to shy away from dealing with harsh truths and working through my emotions. No matter what happens with N, I know I will be ok. I am a very strong woman with a long history of not just surviving but thriving. This too shall pass and I will be a better person for it. Thank you for taking the hard road in your response to me and helping me face some very difficult decisions that I need to make. I'll keep you posted on how things go.
Hugs,
LeeAnn

 

[purplepeach72]

Struggling to move from mono to poly

On paper, it sounds like your husband is behaving like a stereotypical monogamous person, dealing with an attraction for another in sneaky ways because they don't know how else to deal with it. Even though you expect him to have the skills, having been part of a mono-poly setup for years with you, of open and honest communication, he is resorting to lying and cheating. I can completely understand your frustration here. I just wonder if it hasn't been you that has, in a sense, been carrying the partnership in openness and honesty all these years, and whether he has ever been able to wrap his head around the ideas behind polyamory. We all know how hard it is to unlearn entrenched behaviours. In spite of the fact that he sees you practise good communication skills regularly, he is defaulting to cheating behaviours like he sees no other choice for himself. And that is troubling. Either he likes having a 'secret' and part of his interest in these women is the clandestine nature of the affairs themselves, or he's not got the skills to handle multiple relationships at all yet, in spite of ample opportunities to figure it out over the years.

Of all the responses to my post I've received yours seems to resonate with me the most as I feel like this is indeed a struggle for him to move from mono thinking and reacting to poly thinking and reacting. He has no experience in being a hinge or being open and honest with 2 women he is in love with. My intent for this weekend with him is to try to determine if he is sincere in his new efforts to be completely open with me and his new found love.

I kind of hope it's the latter, because that is something he can work on. It's perhaps unfair for you (and me!) to assume that just because you've been exposed to poly, inevitably worked through some issues of dealing with your partner being a hinge, have seen how they manage multiple relationships in a way that is not detrimental to the one between the pair of you, that you automatically know how to put those skills into practise yourself. This is his first time as a hinge, and in Galagirl's words, he is wonky. To me, that seems forgivable. But I would need to be sure that that is what is going on here, that he genuinely wants openness in his dealings with me and other lovers, before I invest any more in the relationship.

You say that he has always felt he couldn't love more than one person at a time, and that's the bit I would focus on if I were you. Has this changed for him now? Why has this changed for him? Does he realise that his behaviour and ways of managing his (now multiple) relationships also needs to change (i.e. it's not the same as having two mono relationships running side by side)? Is his partner on board with this or is she expecting this to be just like dating a single guy with no commitments? Most importantly, is he still committed to a relationship with you at all? I think only when you have answers to those questions can you start to rebuild trust.
These are the types of questions we're dealing with now. He has accepted that he can love more than one woman and assures me that he does not want our relationship to be damaged by him loving another. I don't think he has identified "why" this changed for him other than him telling me that my being poly and setting a good example over our years together allowed him to accept that he could love more than me. He says he understands that the way these relationships have to be handled is different but his fear and old habits kept him mired in hiding this from me. More importantly although I see him trying now, I'm not sure he's living up to his full potential as a poly partner. His new partner and her acceptance is a big unknown for me and one of my main concerns going forward. One of the things we need to work on. He seems to be committed to keeping our relationship and rebuilding.

You've had a shock, realised that you and he are on different pages, perhaps even on different books, and now you need to recalibrate so you are back on the same page with each other BEFORE you can pick up where you left off. Honestly, that might be easier to do if M is out of the picture for a bit, but I understand why you don't want to ask that of him and I admire you for it. I hope he appreciates it too, and doesn't get lost in NRE la-las on top of everything else after he visits her. I know this is tough, but I hope that you can keep talking and get to the bottom of his deceit. Ultimately, you do have to let that go in order for you both to move forwards, so he's right about that, but a major part of healing from a breach of trust is understanding it in all of its complexity so you can both learn from it and see why that would never happen again.

Yes we obviously are no longer on the same page in our relationship and I'm fearful that we may not be in the same book any longer but hopeful that we are closer than we think once we sit down and confront the hows and whys of the cheating behavior. I think once I understand the deceit I'll be able to let it go and move on. I do think it would be easier for us to rebuild without M in the picture and he did offer to end it with her but I feel that his resentment and loss would over shadow our efforts to rebuild. Offering him the opportunity to continue this with her is my way of showing him that I want what is best for him and us not just me. I hope he sees it that way and doesn't get lost in the NRE as well. Honestly, I'm hoping that when they are finally together it will not be all he thinks it is but I'm prepared for it being all they think and more. Either way I feel like we have to know in order to move forward. If it wasn't her it will eventually be someone else and better to deal with this now than later in my opinion. This is his first poly love and I don't want to force him to end it because of me. If it dies I want it to be of its own issues and faults. That being said dealing with a betrayal in our relationship while he builds a new relationship is hard to handle. His way of balancing the two relationships will give me a better insight into whether he is truly committed to us. Thank you for listening and for understanding. I'll post again after our weekend.
Hugs,
LeeAnn

 

[IndieSolo]

I don't understand her need to keep their communications private unless there is something to hide. I also don't feel that asking for that is unreasonable.

It is absolutely unreasonable!

You don't understand a person's right to privacy in her own relationship? Do an Advanced Search or Tag Search here for the phrase "couple privilege." She shouldn't have to show you transcripts of her conversations with him unless she gets to see transcripts of his conversations with you. You may be adamant about being his so-called "primary" but every individual deserves respect and privacy.

 

[Magdlyn]

He has shared bits and pieces of his communication with M and it appears that he is now being honest with her about our relationship and how she will fit into that. However, I haven't seen anything from her agreeing or accepting the lesser role required now that she knows he is in a committed open marriage. I think at the root of it I would feel much better if I could see the entire conversations between them for a specific period of time, perhaps the first few months of this new relationship. I don't understand her need to keep their communications private unless there is something to hide. I also don't feel that asking for that is unreasonable.

Hi Peach,

You've gotten lots of good info and support, but I just want to address this.

The relationship your h has with M is theirs alone. You really have no right to read her words, her communications to him. It doesn't matter if he was cheating. It's about her privacy. Does she have the right to read the texts and emails you and your h exchange? Does anyone have the right to read words others have meant to be private? IMO, no.

It is a grey area for married couples who feel they share everything, even a soul, to recognize that in poly, texts and emails, and descriptions of dates other than a general idea, should not be open to the other partner, unless agreed upon by all parties.

I know it happens, people do it. Just examine the ethics around it though. Some people would feel very violated to have their words of love and desire, and other intimate details of their lives, read by another partner. Some people wouldn't mind in the least. But especially since this woman was in the dark that your h was even married-- her privacy should be protected, imo, unless and until you have her permission from her to read messages.

And if you read words you were never meant to see, you might end up even more traumatized than you are know. Eavesdropping is never a great idea. There are other ways to rebuild trust, as others here have shared.

 

[Magdlyn]

Oops, I didn't see your post NYCindie, sorry to be redundant!

 

[purplepeach72]

Full disclosure

Dear Magdlyn & NYCindie,
Thank you for your replies. The reason I expected my husband's correspondence with M to be completely open to me is because that is what he required of me when I had others while he was away, that is what our relationship contract states we would have and it is what he offered as a means of assuring me that he was being completely open and honest.

I can see why you both feel I'm wrong to ask for that but given our personal agreement I don't think it was unreasonable. Given that this is a norm accepted in the poly lifestyle I can see working towards this as a future goal but I'm not sure that I can accept it in light of the circumstances surrounding N's new relationship with M. I can see that from a poly standpoint, especially one where the primary couples relationship isn't first that my expectations are intrusive.

This is a learning experience for all of us, myself included. Thank you for helping me.
L

 

[GreenAcres]

Did you all tell your partners that their every word and deed would be relayed to your spouse? If the answer is anything other than "yes, and they were totally fine with it," then you've both made a very unethical agreement. It is in no way ethical to betray the privacy expectations of anyone else, period. Continuing to act on an agreement you now know and understand to be unethical just because it was done in the past doesn't make it ethical.

Assuming his GF does not agree to having her every correspondence and detail shared and your husband does it anyway, how can you rebuild trust with a man you'd know to be violating the trust of another? That makes no sense. It would clearly mean he hadn't changed his nature, just who he was lying to. Actually, it doesn't even indicate that. It indicates he's still willing to lie to get his way, which means he'd almost certainly still be lying to you (because, frankly, there are a million ways to communicate with her that you'd never even know about--new email addresses, burn phones, etc.).

So, you're not rebuilding honest trust. You're trying to exert control over someone else,(your husband), and your control and superiority over his GF. That is a very different thing, and will not solve your marital issues (it will, in fact, almost certainly make them worse). If that is the only way to stay in your marriage, I highly encourage you to take some time and think about this very unhealthy marriage dynamic. If this is the only way you think your marriage can work, then perhaps it's time to let it go.

 

[GalaGirl]

LeeAnn:

You take feedback with grace. That is admirable.

I wanted to lift a few things from your response to me, but arrange in bullet list format. I have taken some liberties with it, but offer it to you in case in helps you in your journey as a starting point draft. You could finish fleshing it out/edit it for yourself.

I quote just to visually block the suggested draft off.

WHO I AM

I've worked very hard in my life to be the healthy loving adult I am today. To help keep me that way....

• I reach out to internet help for reality checks
• I also have a therapist for reality checks
• Ultimately I make my choices though.

MY SELF CARE

I am trying to take care of myself and not be mired in this.

Part of how I do that is self validation. I reaffirm to myself that

• I have never been the kind of person to shy away from dealing with harsh truths and working through my emotions.
• No matter what happens with N, I know I will be ok.
• I am a very strong woman with a long history of not just surviving but thriving.
• This too shall pass and I will be a better person for it.

Another part of how I do that is staying focused.

• I will stop focusing on his relationship with M
• I will stop focusing on him at all.
  • I do have to decide if this is a character flaw or a situational lack of judgment. (<--PROCEED WITH CAUTION: This is focus on him. Whether it comes from character flaw or bad judgement or both? In the end, this behavior still affects you. Focus on that part of it. You decide what you are willing to put up with or not and allow into your orbit to affect you. Focus on YOU, your values, your stuff. Guard against slipping off into his stuff. Conserve energy. Could note when you start going off into (his stuff) and pull back to (my stuff).
• I will focus on myself and how to help ME move forward.

MY CORE VALUES

I am not a person to put up with repetitious lying and cheating.

MY PLAN

I've already made the decision to stay in this relationship for now. I have to face the hard truth that I may have to leave it if things don't improve so things get better for ME.

To help me face that I will have my therapist help me work through new limits, boundaries and ways to protect myself in the future.

It will include:

• I have to set limits for what I am willing to put up with and allow.
• I have to set a limit going forward and be willing to terminate this relationship if he can't live up to his agreements.
• I have to learn more about post nuptials. How to write them and what protection they can provide me. Also how to deal if he does not agree to sign one.

You asked if I could help on postnups... I am not a lawyer. I think it is best to google postnup templates to familiarize yourself. Then seek a lawyer's advice on that for your specific case. Ask lawyer about the reality check for that one -- it can be the most fair, beautiful document... but hubby might not sign it. What else does the law provide in term of protection in a divorce? Could learn all your choices.

Keep it on your core value -- the headliner. "I am not a person to put up with repetitious lying and cheating."

There's a whole lot of other problems on the list -- like what is/was not reasonable agreement in the first place but that gets overwhelming. Those can be dealt with later if they still even apply.

You sound like you are finding your way through all this. Good for you! Keep going!

Galagirl

 

[graviton]

There is another thing that may be happening here. Is it possible that your husband has never felt safe being poly? Perhaps your mouth tells him he could have been poly all these years, but your actions have shown him otherwise. Perhaps you have shown jealous streaks, controlling behavior, passive aggression whenever he has tried to open that door. We have seen that a lot on these forums where the power dynamic is unbalanced and one partner gets to be poly but undermines their spouse from enjoying the same thing either through direct or indirect actions.

 

[PaperGrace]

Normally, I pipe up on the side of the secondary person regarding privacy, but for this situation, I'm going to speak up on the other side.

I would put it this way. If the girlfriend wants to continue in the relationship with the husband (which started out as cheating whether she knew it or not), then she needs to understand that the communications containing what happened need to be aired out and shown sunlight. I just don't see how trust and accountability are going to happen without that.

Going forward, now that all parties are eyes open, a new agreement as to privacy can be made.

If the girlfriend does not want to do that, and she may not, then I think she bears some ongoing responsibility in undermining the other relationship. Perhaps that's not what she intended, but those are the consequences of her and the husband's choices.

If the girlfriend prefers to keep her communications secret, I think she should bow out or the husband should bow out of the marriage. If the husband is still set on poly, he could find someone he didn't cheat with and start fresh.

@purplepeach72, in my state, post-nuptial agreements are not legally enforceable. It's considered too easy to coerce a spouse to sign a post-nup under threat of divorce or by withholding children or financial support. They are no good here. So, yes, do check with an attorney in your area.

 

[FallenAngelina]

There is another thing that may be happening here. Is it possible that your husband has never felt safe being poly? Perhaps your mouth tells him he could have been poly all these years, but your actions have shown him otherwise. Perhaps you have shown jealous streaks, controlling behavior, passive aggression whenever he has tried to open that door. We have seen that a lot on these forums where the power dynamic is unbalanced and one partner gets to be poly but undermines their spouse from enjoying the same thing either through direct or indirect actions.

This aspect is really worth exploring, purplepeach. I'd encourage you to see how all of us are participants in our relationships and that things never "just happen out of the blue" no matter how surprising or seemingly unwarranted at the time. In my own experience, my greatest positive growth has come out of taking responsibility for my own part in relationship disappointments. Doing this, I'm able to see things in a different way and move forward along a more satisfying path. This also takes the emphasis off of the Blame Game, softens the situation and helps the partner to see things in new ways, as well.

I'd also encourage you to take a deeper look at your "open and honest" agreement and consider that couples need not have total access to each other (including private communications with others) in order to have peaceful, stable trust between them. No matter the role of the relationship (primary vs. secondary vs. label-free) all mutually positive relationships need privacy to thrive. Trust isn't about the ability to vet all communication and every potential partner. Trust isn't about dutifully adhering to a check list of rules. Trust is a general sense of confidence in your partner and in yourself to make mature and loving choices. Trust is built upon a foundation of self confidence that appreciates and even expects, but doesn't absolutely need constant reassurance of the other's trustworthiness. Trust is actually the opposite of needing to see and know the intimate details of you parter's life. Sure, some couples do share this information, but trust and security is never dependent on a constant drip of information. I very much encourage you to take a step back from your stance that your husband "broke trust" and adopt a more loving (yes, loving) perspective that leaves out the need for evidence of trustworthiness via compliance with so many rules. It can be so frightening to let loose of the reigns, but that's often the very thing that enables our loved ones to draw emotionally closer to us, which is what we're after at heart.

I can see why you both feel I'm wrong to ask for that but given our personal agreement I don't think it was unreasonable. Given that this is a norm accepted in the poly lifestyle I can see working towards this as a future goal but I'm not sure that I can accept it in light of the circumstances surrounding N's new relationship with M. I can see that from a poly standpoint, especially one where the primary couples relationship isn't first that my expectations are intrusive.

There are an awful lot of "poly lifestyle norm" assumptions and relationship categories floating around that really do not seem to be serving the human beings involved. Again, consider loosening your grip on the need for such organization of love relationships. The stricter our rule book, the more people are apt to disappoint us, for people are human and love by its very nature is not bound by regulation.

 

[Dagferi]

There are no normal in poly relationships. What works in my life doesn't in other people's.

Murf would not tolerate my sharing of intimate details of our life with Butch.

 

[Magdlyn]

I can certainly understand your emotions around "needing to know, godammit!" since your h has been cheating for so long. But spying on his private emails just brings you down to his level.

He is a serial cheater. Some "poly" people do cheat. They just aren't able to deal with complete openness and honesty, and/or are so afraid of "hurting" a partner they imagine would be jealous, they resort to taking the low road.

But reading the private emails and texts of your partner (and his OSO) is not a "normal" part of polyamory at all.

Counseling, when there are issues you find yourself unable to deal with, however, is more of a norm in poly.

 

[Inyourendo]

It is absolutely unreasonable!

You don't understand a person's right to privacy in her own relationship? Do an Advanced Search or Tag Search here for the phrase "couple privilege." She shouldn't have to show you transcripts of her conversations with him unless she gets to see transcripts of his conversations with you. You may be adamant about being his so-called "primary" but every individual deserves respect and privacy.

I completely agree with this. If she asks that their relationship is private then you need to honor that.

I also agree that maybe he feels that he has to sneak around even though you guys are in a poly relationship and he has every right to have relationships with others. Nate has had dozens of partners over the years while I had just a few. Yet even so I prefer not sharing because he's made me feel so uncomfortable with the attitude and jealousy. even though i also have every right to have other relationships he's made me feel very uncomfortable about it. I can see why poly people try to keep their relationships and feelings under wraps

 

[Inyourendo]

There are no normal in poly relationships. What works in my life doesn't in other people's.

Murf would not tolerate my sharing of intimate details of our life with Butch.

Yep and I would be really upset if nate read my messages with sam. I don't want to feel like im going to be punished for saying sweet things to my boyfriend because it might make Nate jealous.