Jealousy, Envy, Insecurity, etc.: Merged Threads, General Discussion

I am completely empathetic and sympathetic to her, and I am not at all interested in hurting her or coercing her into something she truly doesn't want to do.
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Then you could back off and let them sort their stuff.

I'm trying to get a sense of where my boundary should be. When it will be clear that other people aren't doing the work they've said they're going to do, and I should walk away?
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Your boundary could be "I do not date people who come from wonky home lives. I only date people who are both willing AND able to date me healthily."

Right now he is willing to poly-date you. He is not yet ABLE to. So back off. Let him get his house in order.

HOW to get his house in order-- if I were the husband in this (your bf), I would read this first. It has some good points about what he might face now.

I would come clean, apologize, ask for the opportunity to make amends. I would list all the things I plan to do to help me change my behaviors and do better going forward

If forgiveness is given, willingness to try to heal granted, as it seems to be here, I would next ask what I could expect from her in terms of observable behaviors she was going to do to on her side to help heal, let go, regain trust, move it forward. I would want to know this is a joint effort, with me doing my tasks, her doing hers, us doing ours, and holding each other accountable.

I would rather measure behavior than measure time. Time passes. That is not something she is doing. It also takes the time it takes, ykwim? But behaviors she does do or not do, I can see those. I cannot see inside her to see her feelings changing. I would ask for a time frame for progress check-ins, to determine "enough progress is being made to keep working on this," or, "it's not enough; it's better to call it quits than drag on and on, because that is healthy for neither of us." Be realistic about it.

Example:

  • 6 appointments with therapist before trying X
  • Complete a non-violent communication class and then implement the new knowledge in daily communication
  • Read a book and discuss the highlights

These making measuring "progress" easier, because it is behavior she is doing or not doing that I can observe.

Example:

  • 3 out of 6 appointments so far
  • 7 out of 10 classes so far
  • 5 out of 9 chapters so far

First, a willingness to change has to be there. Then doing some "helpful for change" behaviors. Then the outcome of "I got over the jealousy" could happen. There's no guarantee it WILL happen, but that's how it could happen. I do not see it happening without some of those things in place.

There should be no harboring of resentment, or agreeing only to have access to "punish" the guy and hold it over his head forever. That behavior is not healing for either of them. If that is the case, it's better to part.

But in the transitional time, it is nice to see the hurt person is actively doing something about it and not stonewalling or foot dragging. A good faith effort is being made to cultivate healing, rather than cultivate resentment in that time.

It is hard to be willing to be vulnerable and take a risk again, after being dinged by someone deeply. She is well within her rights to decide that, while she forgives him, there will be no opportunity to make amends and try to heal, and just want to break up.

She does not have the right to say she will try, but then do things that just keep them stuck in the mire. If she still is stuck, he doesn't have to be -- he can choose to end it and move on himself. With regrets, but move on.

It's a complex thing, healing from cheating. His healing, her healing, the couple healing. All three don't have to happen for him to be ok. But all three DO have to happen for things between them to be ok.

Galagirl
 
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I have written oodles on this topic in various threads over the years.
I cheated.
I came clean.
I set clear outlines for my own change and growth.
I changed my attitude and behavior regarding lying/cheating/sneaking/secrecy.
I spent five years proving myself honest, trustworthy, etc.
By all accounts, including my husband's, I redeemed myself in regards to breaking trust with my affair.

Bottom line: he doesn't have a handle on his jealousy or his "need" for control/power.
We are in the midst of a divorce.

No one can make another person do/be/feel/accept anything.
Either she will come to a place of peace, or she won't.
 
Personally, it took me about two years to feel trusting towards my husband again, after a series of lies and secrets. None were as bad as cheating, but they had broken my belief in him. He had to be completely upfront and honest, and show me that he was working on it for two years before it felt completely ok again, not just two months!
 
The tricky thing with feelings is that they don't always respond to logical thought. The last time I dealt with a serious breach in trust, I felt for years as if I could trust again. The other party had shown me repeatedly that they were very unlikely to behave in the same way again. Yet my feelings wouldn't cooperate. I desperately wanted to be over it; it was causing more problems in my life than in anybody else's. It still took years, I'd say 3 - 4 years, before I was okay again and able to truly trust the other party.

Your boyfriend's wife has every reason I can see to feel betrayed and mistrusting. I'd wonder if it's a bit much to expect her to deal with her husband building a new relationship with somebody else (were they even polyamorous before her husband had sex with you behind her back?) as well as deal with very legitimate feelings of not being able to trust him.

In your shoes, this is not a relationship I'd want to continue in. It sounds like it's causing hurt to your boyfriend's wife even if she'd like to be okay with it. Maybe in time she'll be over it, but it sounds like it's fairly pressured for her just now.

Progress to get over things like that isn't linear, in my experience. People get better, slip back, get better, slip back. It's a normal way of these things progressing. Also, other life events can cause problems. Stress at work, for instance, can take the focus off dealing with things like regaining trust and cause a slipping back.

Two months is no time at all. I wouldn't expect to be able to see a noticeable difference in that time.

IP
 
Given Kalimera's description, I'm guessing neither couple was polyamorous when this whole thing started. Not that cheating in a polyamorous relationship is any easier to take, obviously, but not only is the wife of the other couple processing the cheating, she's also being expected to change her entire lifestyle and notion of marriage, her future, etc., pretty much on a dime.

This is going to take time, and she needs to be allowed time to even decide if this is something she wants to do. I guarantee she's in emotional turmoil right now, so, asking someone to make huge life decisions as soon as they find out something this large is just unfair. His "trickle truth" is going to make it take even longer, since each new "truth" she discovers is another betrayal for her and sets them back to the beginning, or even farther, since it's building betrayal upon betrayal (which many cheaters fail to understand).

She's under no obligation to be working on her jealousy right now, and he shouldn't be pushing her to do so. If he doesn't want to come completely clean and give her the time, space, and assistance she needs to heal herself and their relationship, then he should, as lovingly as possible, remove himself so she can move on and heal. If you don't want to wait, and be VERY patient, you should do the same.

It sucks, but there are consequences to actions. Had you both refrained from cheating and approached your partners before the betrayal, the situation could have been handled differently. You chose to cheat. Your BF then continued to choose to not be honest. Your husband seems to be handling this differently, and that works well for you, which is great. You two can build on that, possibly with someone other than the man you cheated with.
 
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Why not let them be? Maybe someday he will be in a position to see you, if they break up, or the wife eventually is able to forgive him and is willing to be in a polyship with him. But you hanging around most likely is preventing her from healing from this trauma. You guys pushing for this will most likely prolong the feeling of betrayal and isn't serving your end goal of being partners.

If it never happens, then chalk this up to a life lesson about cheating and the consequences of it.
 
While I agree with GalaGirl's assessment about how progress can be shown, I'm going to say that there's a strong likelihood that the wife is in no place yet to even consider working on her behaviors, or to make a decision about whether or not she wants to (meaning, she may not want polyamory). It sounds like he "trickle-truthed" her, and we don't know for how long. Each of those instances will have emotionally set her back to approximately day 1, in terms of processing and emotions. Given the whole issue has only been going on for about 2 months, it can't be more than a few weeks since the last "truth" was told, and she's probably just waiting for yet another one. The only thing that will solve that is him coming totally clean, and time between betrayals.

She needs some time and distance from the betrayals to grieve her relationship, to get off the emotional rollercoaster she has been suddenly set on, and to look at things in a bit more rational way. He needs to be validating her emotions of feeling betrayed by being super attentive, consistent, etc., so she can come to some kind of place of peace.

That, in and of itself, can be expected to take at least a couple of months, as she decides what is healthy and reasonable for her. She shouldn't be pressured to make ANY decisions about the marriage or a marriage style right now. I am not saying it should go on forever, but she needs a place of peace to make quality decisions and be expected to move forward on them. That being a couple of months from the last reveal of betrayal is pretty reasonable. (Therapists will pretty much always tell you not to make any major life decisions in the middle of grief, such as after a death, etc. No, they can't always be avoided, but in this case, they can, for a bit.)

She shouldn't be abusive to her husband in this time, of course, but her emotions will be all over the place, and that is completely normal. If she decides to stay in the marriage, and IF she decides she wants a polyship, THEN Galagirl's plan is absolutely a good way to go.

Should she go to therapy? Maybe. But forcing her to do so during this time by using ultimatums isn't going to be helpful. Asking if she'd like to go together, for their marriage and NOT for polyshipping, is one step to the husband proving he'd like to work on things. But he made the unilateral choice to change their marriage agreement by cheating, and she deserves some time to try and figure out, in her own head, how to deal with that sans pressure from other people wanting her to do one thing or another.

Yep, been here. Done this.
 
Hi kalimera,

My suggestion to you is to assume that the other man's wife will never forgive, and proceed with your own life as if you have no intentions of developing any further relationship with that man. You could ask him to let you know if/when his wife forgives and decides it's okay to have you in the picture again.

Other than that, I don't think there's a lot you can do, unless the other man and/or his wife specifically ask/s you to do something to help. Otherwise they need their own space and time to work it out. If the wife detects your shadow looming overhead, it will take her much longer to forgive.

And I don't know of any way to give you an accurate figure of how long forgiveness is "supposed" to take. That depends entirely on the individual doing the forgiving, and whereas some people can forgive in weeks or months, others may take years or decades. That's why I think you should just assume it won't happen in this lifetime, and let that man (and/or his wife) come to you and let you know if the situation changes.

Sorry, I know that's probably not very helpful. :(
 
You might like to read my old thread: Trust Broken...and Re-Built

When I fucked up with Dude (which you can read about in the "Jackassery" section of my "Journey" blog), MrS was devastated. I cut ALL contact with Dude and vowed (to myself) to do whatever it took to repair my relationship with my husband for a year. It ended up taking about 3 months, but my husband is a truly exceptional guy. That was over 3 (almost 4) years ago.

It IS possible for a cheating situation to yield a positive poly result - but it can't be rushed.
 
Tips on dealing with jealousy

Could anyone give me tips on dealing with jealousy, both in the moment and over the course of a relationship?

My boyfriend says he isn't interested in dating anyone else right now, but he gets a LOT of attention from other women. I want him to feel free to do whatever he wants, as I expect something similar. But I do feel particularly threatened by other women because I don't really understand or get along with them. I have a hard time trusting them.

My boyfriend also has some jealousy over my other partner. He copes with it impressively well, in my opinion, but I think he would still appreciate tips, too.

What has worked for you?
 
You don't really need to trust other women. They don't have a relationship with you, so trust is not needed. The only person you need trust in is your partner. Since jealousy is usually the fear of losing something, let's think of some common fears. Are you:

1. Afraid the women will steal him from you? If that's possible, then good riddance to him. They can't steal him, because he doesn't belong to you. It would be him choosing to leave you
2. Afraid another girl might be more fun to (insert hobby) with? That's inevitable, because we are all different people and have different strengths, weaknesses and interests.
3. Afraid another woman might steal time with him away from you? This WILL happen in poly. But again, they are not stealing time; he would be giving them time. How much is too much is up to you to communicate and for him to take into consideration.
4. Afraid of not having him present at all times and thus having to be on your own for an evening? Find something to keep yourself occupied and learn to build up your self esteem and reliance. Poly is much harder to practice when we are not comfortable as an independent person who is comfortable in their skin.

Try to list for us what other fears crop up that create this jealousy and we can try to address them.
 
 
Graviton, thank you for the extremely thought-provoking comments. I'll have to mull them over before I can respond thoroughly. But I think you covered my major fears.

kdt, thanks for the sources.

My boyfriend is a very warm and open person without a great sense of social boundaries. He enjoys the attention a lot and responds flirtatiously to it. That's fine with me. But two particular women have expressed more serious interest in him, and he's sort of waffled on it. He's told them that, as per our agreement, they would need to meet me first before pursuing anything. One of them (whom I knew personally) became disinterested and never tried to talk to me about it. The other one became pretty impatient about pursuing him, and when he turned her down, apparently she was offended.

In general though, he says he is interested in dating others, partly out of curiosity and partly because he feels lonely when I'm with my other partner.

Part of my discomfort is these women not being interested in meeting me; part of it is not knowing how he really acts around them. It's a new-ish relationship, so I don't feel totally secure yet. I just feel like I shouldn't try to stop him if this is what he wants. This is his first experience with poly. I don't want it to be a bad one. I don't want him to resent me for bringing him into this.
 
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Maybe you could (and should) rethink your policy of meeting the women before they date. This is a very common theme on these forums. People have varying degrees of desire to have a relationship with their metamours (the other dating partner). Many don't see a need to meet them or talk to them, while others feel they need to be good friends with their metamours to feel comfortable with them. Even if you feel it's necessary to meet them, maybe you could hold off until your boyfriend has had a few dates and decides they are a good bet for a partner. I imagine it's intimidating for the women to meet the established girlfriend. Why not wait and see if they are even worth meeting (i.e., important to your boyfriend)?
 
Before reading graviton's 2nd comment here, I was going to recommend getting to know the potential girlfriends. After reading it, although he makes some good points, I stick with my opinion.

Although it's nowhere near impossible, it's more difficult to be jealous of somebody whom you really like. There's no guarantee that you'll really like your BF's admirers, but you'll never know unless you give them a chance.

I may be an idealist/dreamer, but my feeling is that a woman who's not interested or unwilling to meet you (her admired-one's long-term partner) might be more likely to be interested in trying to steal him away from you. [Again: excellent comment from graviton, that she can't steal him if he's really yours.] If she meets you and it sinks into her skull that it's BECAUSE you love him that you're willing to give him his freedom re: a relationship with her, she might despise your "weakness" and/or the "weakness" of your attachment to him... or she might respect you for having a heart that big (and want to be your friend).

I would back up anybody's decision to not want to meet a metamour IF there were no potential jealousy involved. ("His life is his own. I'm happy to be a part of it, but whom he loves is his own business.") In your case, I think it might help to get to know her and realise that she's not a sneaky, conniving rival, but a kindred soul who shares your taste in men... or at least in one of them.
 
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When I am in the early stages of dating someone, I am focussed on evaluating how the relationship feels to me. I have no idea if I want to put myself out there for this person (his OSO) yet, let alone other people in the "tribe." I certainly would not agree to meet anyone who is co-vetting from the other side, metamour or not. It's not that I'd be intimidated, it's that I would feel the meta has little trust in her partner and that the very set-up is just the tip of the iceberg of a relationship that is fraught with "ick." I'd walk the other way, too, not because I'd be intimidated, or offended, or want to "steal" him/her, but because nobody should be involved in my relationship with a budding new partner, especially before we ourselves even know what that relationship is.
CaptainCharisma said:
I want him to feel free to do whatever he wants, as I expect something similar. But I do feel particularly threatened by other women because I don't really understand or get along with them. I have a hard time trusting them.
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If I were interested in feeling more secure in my relationship, THIS is what I would be focusing on, not on his behavior with other women, not on their behavior with him, not on vetting/meeting/getting a feel for his prospective partners. Concerning yourself with these other people is going to bring temporary relief (at best) from your anxiety. Getting more secure footing with your trust issues with women will change your entire experience of life in general and is really the only aspect of this that will have a lasting, positive effect.
 
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Re (from CaptainCharisma):
"It's a new-ish relationship, so I don't feel totally secure yet."
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Perhaps the passing of time, then, will help you to feel less fearful/insecure/jealous?
 
I was lucky enough to marry a woman who never got jealous, because she said she knew that I would never leave her, and even more lucky that the second women in our triad was the same. She accepted that my marriage was the primary relationship and did not get jealous of my wife. She also dated other guys, and eventually married a guy who accepted her relationship in our triad. He did not want to join us, and neither my wife or I got jealous or felt insecure. We lasted for 38 years.

I never got jealous for reasons that would be immodest to speak about. There are few that have the qualities I have, and whether completely true or not, as long as I believe that, I worry about no man and hence, suffer no jealousy. :)
 
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