Clock is Ticking

Magdlyn said:
As far as I know he just climbs on and pumps away and it's all over in 10 minutes. Works for them! Yuck.

I hope the counseling helps. You've been very polite and long suffering but like Gala Girl said, it's time to be self-full and see about getting your needs met!
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I'm definitely not just looking for a body to pump; the issue all along (from the very beginning) is that her interest and enthusiasm is lukewarm at best, non-existent the rest of the time.

One small update: I did make an appointment and told my wife I'd like her to go. It was such a relief to actually make that one small step! She's still uncomfortable about that, so I asked her last night if she'd like to talk about it. I got a "I'm too tired" (which she wasn't, since she went on to discuss a few other things :( ). So, I feel validated in not waiting, but we'll see if she
will go with me (I told her even the therapist said it wasn't necessary - we could do a one-on-one each first or whatever we'd like to do).

Again ... thanks for all the really thoughtful and helpful responses. Today might be warm enough for a walk under the sun to let "The Issue" melt a bit from the strained focus I've held on it recently.
 
Your wife's reluctance to see a counselor seems to me more telling than is her disinterest in sex. In any case, I think you are making the right move. Just working alone with a therapist you might be able unravel some of the situation.
 
ambivulous said:
One small update: I did make an appointment and told my wife I'd like her to go. It was such a relief to actually make that one small step! She's still uncomfortable about that, so I asked her last night if she'd like to talk about it. I got a "I'm too tired" (which she wasn't, since she went on to discuss a few other things :( ). So, I feel validated in not waiting, but we'll see if she
will go with me (I told her even the therapist said it wasn't necessary - we could do a one-on-one each first or whatever we'd like to do).
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I'm glad that making an appointment helped give you some relief, and hope the therapist can help you find ways to enhance your relationship.

I suspect the "I'm too tired" thing is a short-hand way for her to say a few things:

-"I don't want to deal with this." Facing difficult issues in a relationship is hard, and excuses are easier.

-"I don't feel safe talking about this." If she fears her expressing her emotions may upset you, or result in a change or end to your relationship, she is likely experiencing fear. Fear is a horrible inhibitor to communication, and one that is not easily expressed because saying "I am scared to tell you how I feel" would immediately signal that the speaker was going to say something they feel would result in the above (change in the relationship).

Fear can be created by many things, including:
- past communication issues between the two of you. This could include instances where emotions were expressed, and negative consequences followed, or where threats were made, such as "if I don't get my needs met, I will leave," etc. Or, where her feelings were minimized or not validated, in favor of yours.

- family-of-origin communication problems and punishment. This is common, unfortunately. Things like expressing anger, sadness, or differences of opinion is punished, and so the person learns excuses are easier.

-conflict avoidance personality. This can be caused or exacerbated by past experiences, as well.

-Low self-esteem.

-Societal pressure. The more you post, the more it sounds like your wife may not have ever been particularly sexual. Unfortunately,in our society, that isn't views as "normal," and the pressure to be sexual often causes people to act sexual to secure a mate, because they believe they are "broken," and/or will never find love if they are asexual/not particularly sexual. This can be really difficult to overcome. It is unfair to their partners, and to the person themselves, of course. If you think that you wife may have always lacked an active libido, it's worth doing some research and talking to your therapist about the norm of asexuality, to give you a better idea of how to approach your wife from a supportive place that could benefit you both. It's very possible that, if she is just naturally a less sexual/asexual person, she feels that it is all on her for being "weird," and "broken," and would open up more if she felt that her natural sexuality would be accepted without recrimination.

And some other things I am probably forgetting. You can try helping to remove fear by changing communication patters, and reassuring her without pressure to conform to your desires and needs. It may or may not work, but creating a safe communication space can help.

Let us know how therapy goes!
 
I saw the counselor yesterday. It was somewhat anti-climactic. She really wanted to meet and talk with my wife (my wife wasn't there - as expected).

The counselor did hint as some of the issues you mention, GreenAcres. And to be honest, I can attest to my wife feeling acting afraid when we talk about these things. There was one incidence when we were engaged were I expressed some reservations about our upcoming marriage. And it sent her into a crying fit ... and occasionally we've had, perhaps - I'm not sure - touched on that same emotion. Of course, I never threatened to leave her and I've assured her through all this recent discussions that I in no way want to leave her or demand anything specific. Just that I'm not happy with how things are going and I'd like to try and improve things, with professional help since we've had these problems for some time and have tried to make things better on our own - to no avail.

So, the next thing is for my wife to get to therapy, even if just once (so the therapist doesn't think I'm dreaming this all up ;) ) and go from there. I hope she will be able to do it (probably without me there, to minimize the "fear factor") and hopefully we make some positive improvements. We talked some about it last night and she was relatively open to talk about my session and what I talked about with the counselor.
 
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I hope you keep going. I hope for both that she eventually joins and she goes to the therapist too.

Fumbling along just you two did not solve it. Hopefully getting help from a third party can help.

Galagirl
 
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I think the next thing is just you keep going to therapy. I *hope* your wife goes too, but I *know* (from personal experience) that even going by yourself without the other person agreeing to participate can be transformative in your relationship as you learn new ways communicate. Changing 'half' of a relationship actually changing the whole thing.
 
I'm with the others; don't be too discouraged by the anti-climactic first session; keep seeing that counselor. Or at the very least, "shop around" for a different counselor if you and this counselor don't quite "click." But see *some* counselor, somewhere.
 
GreenAcres said:
If you think that you wife may have always lacked an active libido, it's worth doing some research and talking to your therapist about the norm of asexuality, to give you a better idea of how to approach your wife from a supportive place that could benefit you both. It's very possible that, if she is just naturally a less sexual/asexual person, she feels that it is all on her for being "weird," and "broken," and would open up more if she felt that her natural sexuality would be accepted without recrimination.
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That is an interesting perspective. I asked her if she had and DIY sex since the beginning of the year, she said "no". In comparison to me, I do it about every 2-3 days. So, being able to recognize that difference is helpful. I'm not sure "we" can work with that though, I mean, if I want it 2/week and she wants it 1/year ... uh, that's not really a resolution.

On the up side, I think that because I've gone to therapy, which is something she considers as unpleasant, risky, and significant to fix this problem has made her realize I'm serious about doing something constructive to improve things. It has opened up some space for communication because she realizes that I'm having a rough time of it. She is starting to not just think about her own hangups, but that I have some too.
 
I'm thinking poly and therapy may both play crucial roles in solving the problems at hand. Only time will tell.
 
Just an update .... I've gone to a new therapist twice now, and my wife has gone once (in-between my visits). I like the second therapist much better since she deals more specifically with sexual issues.

I was hoping for a little more discussion with my wife around the issues, her thoughts, fears, hopes, ... feelings. After her visit I asked her how it went and if she felt it would help and anything else she might want to discuss regarding it. I didn't get much discussion :(. Eventually the only thing she told me was that for the next visit she didn't want to go, but she might go on future visits (though she wouldn't say if she wanted them to be with or without me). All of that is to say I don't feel like we're making much progress.

I created a little synopsis of my last visit and shared it with her. I don't know if she read it, but she made no comment about it a week later, didn't ask me how my visit went, what I was feeling .... I feel really alone and frustrated by that non-communication. I feel like I nag her about this, so I am really trying to just keep my mouth shut and see if she will bring it up. So far, that strategy is not really working. Of course, the annoying part, for me, is that she will acknowledge these deficiencies and problems, but not be able to really change to address them.

What I really want, but am terrified, to say- both in that I'm not sure it's what I want AND that it could destroy her faith in my fidelity - is:

"I love you, I want to stay married, I find our partnership good, fulfilling, and emotionally stable. But I'd like to open our marriage to other relationships that may be able to satisfy my, and yours - should such a change instigate a shift in your libido, sexual needs."

Sounds simple enough, eh?

The other minefield, as others have noted, is that an open (or any good relationship, for that matter) only works with good communication. And that's not really happening. So, I feel like I need an intermediate, or multiple, wake-up call to her that our level of communication just isn't working for me. That I need her to have a regularly active interest in what is going on in my head and not shut me down when I display a similar interest in what's going on in hers. To date, she has expressed no independent interest in dealing with this problem and only meagerly responded to my increasingly desperate pleas.
 
Hi ambivulous,
Thanks for your update.

Your wife reminds me of Brother-Husband, my metamour. BH is not a strong communicator, and he isn't motivated to try to improve. He is content where and how he is. He will talk about work, sports, the weather, work around the house, but when it comes to feelings and relationship issues he usually shuts down and won't talk. Won't -- or can't. Or both.

For a time, BH's wife and I went on something of a "crusade" to try to get him to talk more (and better). Everyone struggled for quite awhile. BH made marginal improvements, but Snowbunny (his wife) and I were so exhausted by then that we decided the effort wasn't worth it. Instead, we resolved to try to have the best composite relationship possible without trying to change BH.

I suppose we had an advantage in that she and I could turn to each other for feelings/relationship talk. She had an outlet for that because I was in the picture. However, you are in a monogamous marriage and if your wife won't talk to you, you have no other outlet. I think that's why it's so frustrating for you.

My personal opinion is that it would be fine to focus less on sex and general communication issues, and more on telling her about polyamory (and/or other nonmonogamy) and seeking her consent for that. You've made good faith efforts to work on the other areas, and your wife doesn't seem to be interested in those. So, it seems fair to me to move in a new direction.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
ambivulous said:
....I need her to have a regularly active interest in what is going on in my head and not shut me down when I display a similar interest in what's going on in hers. To date, she has expressed no independent interest in dealing with this problem and only meagerly responded to my increasingly desperate pleas.
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Having been a wife for 16 years, I'll give you the advice to get off the sex talk and set that aside. When you are at her to "open up" about sex or talking about sex or poly or anything having to do with sex, you're putting an awful lot of pressure on her to fulfill what she can't or won't or doesn't want to. It gets to the point where she withdraws more and more because all of that NEED from you is lurking and comes oozing out every time the two of you get close in any way. This is how spouses (especially the female spouse) can evolve into emotional brick walls. Any closeness brings up the sex needs, not the togetherness and joy that she once felt with you. Back off, don't press for more. You don't want pity sex and that's all you'd be getting anyway by asking for "more sex." If you want your wife to open like a flower, you must back off the pressuring her to go to counseling and all of the verbal requests to open, open, open up. Backing off doesn't mean emotional distance - at all. She is much more likely to feel your love and open to you emotionally when you offer your love and personal interest in her as a gift, without the expectation of something in return, which is the vibe you're giving off now.
 
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HappilyFallenAngel said:
If you want your wife to open like a flower, you must back off the pressuring her to go to counseling and all of the verbal requests to open, open, open up. Backing off doesn't mean emotional distance - at all. She is much more likely to feel your love and open to you emotionally when you offer your love and personal interest in her as a gift, without the expectation of something in return, which is the vibe you're giving off now.
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I said I feel like a nag, but I am not nagging or pressuring or any of that "vibe" you think I'm giving. I listen, I give space, I help a lot around the house, I am patient, and I generally expect that I won't get similar support from her.

I know there are two sides to every relationship and for sure I have some behaviors that aren't helping, but her reticence and lack of willingness to talk about it gives me absolutely no clues or feedback on how to improve.
 
HappilyFallenAngel said:
This is your vibe. I'm just offering the perspective that your vibe is far more influential than your behaviors or words.
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I'm sure this conversation would be better in person :). Perhaps I didn't chose the correct words. But your stating I should love her unconditionally and then that I don't expect the same in return gives off some negative vibe seems contradictory. Isn't loving someone unconditionally - a gift - mean you don't expect something in return?

Anyway, let's say - since you didn't say it, but I get your point - that I harbor some resentment that my wife doesn't give back in fair measure the way I give to her. That I resent her reticence, that I resent her ignoring a problem that I've clearly and repeatedly brought up, suggested ideas to fix, and finally requested we get professional help. Over years. Add that I don't like that I resent her for that, which turns into a bit of self-loathing after a while, which I really don't think I deserve.

Let's say that's my vibe.

I can only use words or actions, I can't just wipe away that resentment. If I don't tell her, there will be no changes. If I do tell her, still nothing changes and I'm being pushy. Honestly, if I didn't bring this up - that a sexless marriage over several years is a problem - she wouldn't. She hasn't followed up on my concerns. I asked why not, or if she thinks that's alright, she says, "Uh, I don't know, and no I don't think it's ok." But that's the end of her input and end of the discussion. It makes me feel emotionally abandoned.

My everyday actions remain patient, loving, helpful, and attentive. In the bedroom I was never demanding, demeaning, or cold. I've tried different times of day, less direct cuddling, and touching to try and let her know I'm not just a sex machine requiring lube. She never comes to my side of the bed, never cuddles to me, touches me, or assures me that I am loved physically. It makes me feel physically abandoned.

Again, I appreciate your comments - and all others here. It is unconditional and "the truth hurts" kind of stuff. I hope to see my therapist again next week and see if I can come up with some positive steps forward.
 
ambivilous, the problem with this situation (and you're not alone - most people do this) is that you're using your actions and behaviors and waiting on her actions and behaviors to make a better relationship. You feel emotionally abandoned because she isn't giving you the behavior or feeling the feelings you're asking for, but the thing is - if you were truly offering her the gift of love with no strings, there would be no room for abandonment in your experience. Feeling abandoned can only happen when you come to a situation needing the other person to fulfill a duty or return your gift in kind. I know it sounds kind of out there and as I said, most people do relationships the way you're doing it, but basing your experience of fulfillment on another person's behavior is setting yourself up to be tossed around by whatever is going on with her. This is why I'm not all that gung ho on couple counseling. Yes, a bit of communication can happen and sometimes people hit on a few good ideas, but if the counseling is based on getting the individuals to "fill the other's need" then you're gonna have a duty-based relationship and not an inspired relationship. Informing our partners of our "needs" is clunky and marginally satisfying in the long run. You don't want a partner making efforts to behave properly according to your wishes, you want a partner who is inspired to be emotionally and physically close. The way to re-orient yourself more toward inspiration is to get rid of the belief that "better behavior" needs to happen via verbally informing your partner and tuning yourself toward a more joyful life in general. No partner comes kicking and screaming into a closer, more emotionally connected relationship. If you want a partner who is joyful, loving and inspired, be a partner who is joyful, loving and inspired - no strings attached. You absolutely can get rid of resentment and feelings of abandonment by focussing on your own joy, independent of anyone else's perceived good or bad behavior. The more you do, the more truly connected joy you illicit from those around you.


If I may quote myself from earlier in your thread: :eek:
HappilyFallenAngel said:
I find in my own life that every fear, trepidation, difficulty and road block that I so long to extricate in the other person is the very thing that is tripping me up. We always orbit up with people who perfectly reflect what's going on inside.......Whether you choose to work with a therapist or take a more spiritual approach, you need to change you in order to see change in your relationships.
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HappilyFallenAngel said:
You feel emotionally abandoned because she isn't giving you the behavior or feeling the feelings you're asking for, but the thing is - if you were truly offering her the gift of love with no strings, there would be no room for abandonment in your experience. Feeling abandoned can only happen when you come to a situation needing the other person to fulfill a duty or return your gift in kind.
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No, I'm feeling abandoned because she fails to communicate with me. I think we have a responsibility to communicate in all relationships. I don't think that qualifies as a gift, that's a necessary component of any relationship. I appreciate the advice that it can help to look inwards, try to improve ourselves, but I find it naive to project that attitude in all situations. There are times when one is presented with a situation in which personal growth or a focus change does nothing but allow the problem to fester.

If, for example, my wife turned out to be asexual, I could wait another 10 years before she finally figures that out on her own (if ever) while I'm unconditionally loving her and giving her space and working on my own joy and fulfillment. She will never appreciate what I'm doing, she'll continue feeling insecure, have a poor body image, and maybe even feel depressed ... (all but the last point has she has admitted to me). From her perspective she'd be thinking, "Oh, maybe he's gone asexual too, great, we have a happy sexless marriage ...." And I'd be miserably fulfilled with joy.

I'm not trying to change my wife ... I'm just trying to get some kind of recognition and discussion going. Basic stuff, it doesn't have to be nitty gritty; even if I just understand what she is comfortable, and not comfortable, discussing. So far I have been really open, patient, and flexible in trying to deal with this. If we can't talk about it (if she's like Kevin's Metamour - and just can't or won't) then I have to figure out if I can accept that or if that kind of relationship is no longer acceptable for me, and risk a break-up with implications not only for our relationship, but also for our two kids (13 and 9 yo). And/or risk suggesting to her that we open up the marriage.
 
Well, ambivulous, you certainly make a good case for keeping your perspective the way it is and for keeping yourself locked into sadness because someone else won't understand you or be what you need. You call me naive and fair enough. I did relationships your way (via negotiation and recognition and discussion) for 50 years and the results were passably pleasant, but not inspired - certainly not the relationships of my dreams. The day I released my husband from my need for him to see things my way was the day life started to reveal all sorts of amazing and unforeseen solutions, possibilities and delightful new people. Our relationships simply reflect who we are inside, it's really that simple.
 
Re (from ambivulous):
"If we can't talk about it, then I have to figure out if I can accept that or if that kind of relationship is no longer acceptable for me, and risk a breakup with implications not only for our relationship, but also for our two kids. And/or risk suggesting to her that we open up the marriage."
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I agree, and would suggest asking her to open up the marriage before breaking up with her. If she chooses to break up due to being asked to open the marriage, that's on her. Just my opinion.
 
HappilyFallenAngel said:
.... This is why I'm not all that gung ho on couple counseling. Yes, a bit of communication can happen and sometimes people hit on a few good ideas, but if the counseling is based on getting the individuals to "fill the other's need" then you're gonna have a duty-based relationship and not an inspired relationship. Informing our partners of our "needs" is clunky and marginally satisfying in the long run. You don't want a partner making efforts to behave properly according to your wishes, you want a partner who is inspired to be emotionally and physically close. ....
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I continue to be fascinated by your perspective and ability to articulate it, HFA.

Not having time to read through all of your posts, and the thousands of posts in here, I'm wishing you had a distilled version of your perspective and how it came to you writtten up to share!:)

Maybe a booklet?
 
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