A Difficult Situation... new to poly

[agentb2016]

Update: Tried to have a conversation about what he wants last night.

I'm still unsure what to think of this. But here's what I gleaned from it:

-He's noncommittal right now (sounds like he doesn't want to commit to anyone; but I should have clarified whether he just means me or not, tho I feel that would come across as insecure).
-He likes me and still feels a connection and wants to keep dating/seeing me. Felt a spark in the beginning tho now he feels our relationship has shifted from that
-Feels a spark right now with this new other girl he's also continuing to see
-Didn't/isn't using a condom with the other girl he's seeing. He said he talked with her and she's sure she's clean but this makes me a bit uneasy.
-Wants to continue having condom-less sex with me
-"I love you, I love all women."
-Me asking - "Does this change anything between you and me?" Him - "No."

I'm feeling kind of insecure right now.

I enjoy spending time with him and I really like the sex with him. But thinking about all this makes me feel insecure.

But I'm not sure if this is just my own insecurity being new to poly; Or the situation.

 

[PinkPig]

If by "spark", he's meaning NRE, then it's usual that that will fade with established partners but be hot/heavy with newer partners. Blue has been a bit of an NRE junkie in the past. It use to make me feel insecure but we've talked about specific actions we can each do to help with this. It's a give/take thing, imo. It's not his job to make me feel more secure but if he's invested in the relationship, he may choose to consider how his actions impact me/ our relationship. For example, Blue use to frequently text his other gf(s) when we were together. We talked about how that affected my anxiety. Now, if we're only together a couple hours, he doesn't text much, if at all. OTOH, if we're together all weekend, then I expect that he'll text/call others but he's also selective about when and how much he does it. I extend the same respect and don't bother him unless it's necessary, while he's with other partners. I also have learned not to take it personally if the amount of time he spends texting me decreases when he starts a new relationship.

As for the sexual health stuff, you aren't being insecure. His behavior is riskier than I'd be comfortable with. Just as it's his decision with whom he has protected or unprotected sex with, it's your decision whether to have sex (protected or unprotected) with him. If his sexual health practices are riskier than you're comfortable with, you can choose to not have sex with him, or to always use a condom when having sex with him. Just because he wants to have unprotected sex with you, doesn't mean he gets to.

 

[Magdlyn]

Issues

The physical:

If he had sex with new girl bareback, and then had sex with you bareback before you knew about her, you are now at risk for STDs. You could get tested soon, and then again in 3 more months, and 3 months after that, since some diseases take time to incubate.

You could ask him to get tested. He can agree or refuse, of course. His body, his health choices.

Many poly couples (if not most) have definite boundaries around having unprotected sex. Your bf is being very careless!

Issues

the emotional:

He likes you, he loves you. He "loves all women." This does not sound like a man ready for a full time monogamous relationship. And he isn't being ethically poly, if he met someone, fucked her bareback, and then hedged around until you finally dragged The Truth out of him. If it was the truth!

Ball is in your court. What do you want to do?

 

[agentb2016]

Issues

If he had sex with new girl bareback, and then had sex with you bareback before you knew about her, you are now at risk for STDs. You could get tested soon, and then again in 3 more months, and 3 months after that, since some diseases take time to incubate.

You could ask him to get tested. He can agree or refuse, of course. His body, his health choices.

Many poly couples (if not most) have definite boundaries around having unprotected sex. Your bf is being very careless!

Yes... he is being very careless I asked him to get tested a few months ago, which he did. The only assurance I have from him is that "she said she's clean" but that doesn't give me much, I barely know her and he barely knows her. I feel like I need to go get tested now that I've been exposed to him/her without a condom.

the emotional:

He likes you, he loves you. He "loves all women." This does not sound like a man ready for a full time monogamous relationship. And he isn't being ethically poly, if he met someone, fucked her bareback, and then hedged around until you finally dragged The Truth out of him. If it was the truth!

Ball is in your court. What do you want to do?

No, he's not being ethically poly at all.

I'm trying to figure out what to do. I'm still unsure.

I feel like these are my options:
a) Try to have another conversation with him, maybe send him a link to the MoreThanTwo website FAQ (he has a LOT of learning to do about ethical poly, but I'm not even convinced right now that that's what he wants or is willing to learn)
b) Tell him this relationship is not meeting my needs right now, and he needs to either go figure his shit out or just go fuck other people like he wants.
c) Continue to see him sexually and try to detach emotionally (may be hard for me given our history, and I'm pretty sure he still won't want to use a condom)
d) Just stop talking to him cold turkey and take care of myself....

What's stopping me? I'm afraid of losing him and the connection we have. But I'm not sure how much he even values that connection.

And I'm afraid that if I break it off with him, then the other girl "wins" because I'll be out of the picture and she'll get him all to herself.... I know this is stupid, but I keep thinking about it.

 

[Nadya]

You had a discussion and got answers. He says he wants to keep fucking you bareback and also keep fucking the other girl bareback. That was the main idea I grasped... He wants to have sex without protection with at least two girls. He is not going to commit to you.

Look at his actions: He had unprotected sex with another person and had unprotected sex with you without telling about the risk he brought to you.

He wants to keep it that way: fuck whomever he fancies without protection and risk your health time and time again. This is his offer, basically. He offers nothing else to you - none of those things that you want: emotional depth, commitment, longevity of relationship.

And I'm afraid that if I break it off with him, then the other girl "wins" because I'll be out of the picture and she'll get him all to herself.... I know this is stupid, but I keep thinking about it.

So, what a wonderful prize she is winning, right? I'd say let her keep him - she won't have him all for herself. He'll continue fucking others anyway.

 

[agentb2016]

So, what a wonderful prize she is winning, right? I'd say let her keep him - she won't have him all for herself. He'll continue fucking others anyway.

Sure, based on how he seems like he is right now he doesn't want to commit to ANYONE - not her, not me.

But, what if he decides she's awesome? What if he decides she's exactly what he wants? And he ends up having a long term relationship.

I feel like this happens time and time again to me. I date someone and despite things going well, they don't want to commit to me. Then the next person they date, they end up in a long relationship with. It doesn't happen ALL the time, I have some exes who are still single. But when it does happen it makes me seriously wonder what's wrong with me.

Or what if he changes? I know I shouldn't bank on this. But he's had 5yr, 3yr relationships before. Monogamous ones. He said he gave them a good go but eventually they drifted apart. Now he seems to want to just be a slut. But sometimes he tells me he wants something long term. Sometimes he tells me he wants to be a slut, sometimes he tells me he wants something long term. The other day he said he would only want something long term right now if he feels "magic" with someone. Which he doesn't seem to feel with me. Which fucking sucks, because I felt like we had "magic" when this all started.

 

[kdt26417]

This magic you speak of, sounds to me like NRE ... and NRE is always temporary. So when he bases the idea of a long-term relationship on whether he feels "the magic," he isn't going to have any long-term relationships. If NRE lasts up to three years, it's no wonder he thinks he and his former monogamous partners "drifted apart."

He's not thinking things through very well, in my opinion.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[GalaGirl]

Sure, based on how he seems like he is right now he doesn't want to commit to ANYONE - not her, not me.

And that is the data to date. That is what you could base your present decision on. He doesn't want to commit to anyone and he's treated you poorly. Based on that? You could end it and move on. Not a dating match after all. You want something else.

But, what if he decides (in the future) she's awesome? What if he decides she's exactly what he wants? And he ends up having a long term relationship.

That is you fortune telling one possible future. Could just as easily be fortune telling "what if he turns into a monk and goes celibate?"

Neither "prediction" applies to your present day situation. Neither has not happened yet, and neither bears on your decision making TODAY. All you seem to be doing thinking like that is cranking up your own upset so you end up frozen like a deer in the headlights and successfully avoiding making your today decisions today.

I feel like this happens time and time again to me. I date someone and despite things going well, they don't want to commit to me. Then the next person they date, they end up in a long relationship with. It doesn't happen ALL the time, I have some exes who are still single. But when it does happen it makes me seriously wonder what's wrong with me.

Part of the business of dating is to find the compatible ones for YOU. Not everyone you date will be a a match for you. Just like you won't be a match for every one of them.

Don't be peering to see what the incompatible ones did after dating you. What they do after you? Has nothing to do with you or your value. Don't start ripping on yourself because they did not pick you. Why be your own bully? What joy do you get out of that?

What is wrong with you as a person? Nothing. You have worth, dignity and value. Just like any other person does.

What you could improve in your BEHAVIORS?

• I think you could stop ripping on yourself. That's not healthy or attractive. Nobody healthy goes "Yay! I want a partner that bullies their own self!"
  
• I think you could attend to your OWN life and your present day business.
  
• I think you could stop being busy looking at what the other past people are doing and longing for a past that did not happen. That's keeping your head in the past.
  
• I think you could stop being busy predicting doom things for the future that haven't actually come to pass. That's putting your head in a future you do not want.

Keep your head more grounded in the TODAY. Be more present in your today and make your today choices today.

Galagirl

 

[agentb2016]

This magic you speak of, sounds to me like NRE ... and NRE is always temporary. So when he bases the idea of a long-term relationship on whether he feels "the magic," he isn't going to have any long-term relationships. If NRE lasts up to three years, it's no wonder he thinks he and his former monogamous partners "drifted apart."

He's not thinking things through very well, in my opinion.

Kevin - wow, NRE can last up to 3 years? Really? I didn't realize that.... I always thought it was maybe like a 3-6 month thing.

I think you could stop ripping on yourself. That's not healthy or attractive. Nobody healthy goes "Yay! I want a partner that bullies their own self!"
I think you could attend to your OWN life and your present day business.
I think you could stop being busy looking at what the other past people are doing and longing for a past that did not happen. That's keeping your head in the past.
I think you could stop being busy predicting doom things for the future that haven't actually come to pass. That's putting your head in a future you do not want.

Keep your head more grounded in the TODAY. Be more present in your today and make your today choices today.

Galagirl, may I say that I love your no bullshit and insightful responses?

I'd also like to say thank you to everyone for their thoughtful replies on here. It's great to know this is such a supportive community.

 

[kdt26417]

Hey agent,

I've heard different estimates on how long NRE can last. Three to six months is like the minimum. Two years is like the maximum, and I've even heard three years given as a maximum.

Of course those are all just word-of-mouth estimates, not at all based on any scientific research. Plus every person is a unique individual, and relationships are doubly unique, so, the duration of NRE will vary a lot from case to case.

Regards,
Kevin T.

 

[IndieSolo]

I think part of the problem is that he doesn't know what he wants.

Well, it's only a problem for you. However, it's perfectly okay for a person to not know what they want.

The only request I made of him early on, since he wanted to have sex with me without a condom, is that he get tested and if he plans to sleep with others that he use a condom, as my health is at stake (and I agreed to the same). I've even told him that I don't control him. You're right and technically he owes me nothing and wasn't under obligation to stay exclusive to me. However, I did sort of feel it was in poor taste for him to go fuck someone else with no warning, just as we've been trying to figure out where we stand and if we can do a poly relationship together.

So, are you saying that, just because he wanted to go bareback, that you okayed him doing so -- at this early stage of your relationship? If that's the case, why did you do that? You are responsible for your own sexual health, so if he didn't want to use condoms, you didn't have to go along with it and have intercourse bareback with him. At 5 or 6 months, you're still getting to know one another. The smart thing would have been to have two series of STI tests done, a few months apart, before fucking without condoms, and only if you had an agreement to be fluid bonded without anyone else going bareback with him. Usually going without condoms is a significant choice to make, not when in a "what are we, what kind of relationship is this?" phase. Or were you preparing to get to that point of going without condoms? Did he use a condom with the chick he picked up at the bar? Are you planning to get tested again soon?

 

[agentb2016]

So, are you saying that, just because he wanted to go bareback, that you okayed him doing so -- at this early stage of your relationship? If that's the case, why did you do that? You are responsible for your own sexual health, so if he didn't want to use condoms, you didn't have to have intercouse bareback with him. At 5 or 6 months, you're still getting to know one another. The smart thing would have been to have a series of STI tests done before agreeing to go without condoms, and only if you had an agreement to be fluid bonded without anyone else going bareback with him. Or were you preparing to get to that point? Did he use a condom with the chick he picked up at the bar?

Nycindie - we got drunk and had sex without a condom the first night we met. Yes, I know it was a mistake. I believe I asked him that night to use a condom and he ignored my request. (I was literally tied up as we are both into kink stuff. He had me tied up, I asked him to put a condom on, he refused and stuck it in anyways). Then it became a precedent.

I agree this was a mistake on my part and I should have insisted on condom use from the beginning.

When I got the sense he wanted something open, though, I told him if he would like to continue doing bareback sex with me, I would ask that he use a condom if he plans to fuck anyone else. He agreed, and got tested.

No, he didn't use a condom with the girl at the bar. And he didn't tell me that until I asked him, after he fucked me bareback as well.

I got tested again this morning, as I felt very uncomfortable with all this last week (my first time having sex with him after he slept with the other girl).

p.s. This is the same guy I was talking about in my updated thread today that you also responded to - "Finally had the talk."

I agree that it's okay for someone to not know what they want, however it becomes quite difficult when they keep changing their story on what they want, which is what he's done. In the beginning I didn't worry about it, and he treated me very much like a girlfriend for several months. Then when the convo came up about "We haven't defined our relationship" he said he wanted something long term and committed, as long as it wasn't monogamous, and thought he might be poly. Then he called me a "friend." Then two weeks later he said he wanted to date me, and bar girl, and other people. Then he said he didn't know what he wanted. Then he said he's noncommittal. Whenever I try to talk about poly, he acts as if I'm imposing rules on him and he doesn't want to discuss or figure it out between us. He refuses to use condoms with me or another girl, but then feels I'm imposing a "rule" when I ask for condoms. I have never imposed any rules without his consent. I have tried to talk about it, but we never get there because he already feels I'm imposing on him just by talking about poly.

 

[Nadya]

I was literally tied up as we are both into kink stuff. He had me tied up, I asked him to put a condom on, he refused and stuck it in anyways.

I did not even read the rest of the post... Hon, this is RAPE!

 

[opalescent]

Yes have to agree with Nadya. You were raped. Being into kink is no excuse for not using a condom. This is not your fault and you are not responsible for him not caring about how you wanted to have sex. He is responsible.

It pains me how often I hear this scenario in kink and sex-positive circles. Woman and man are playing, there is some element of kink, the woman states a limit, like no penetration or use a condom during intercourse. What she wants is ignored, man rapes her and she blames herself - for not speaking up earlier, for not being clearer, for wanting sex and/or kinky play and so her limits being discarded are somehow ok. This is rape and it is not your fault. He is responsible.

 

[FallenAngelina]

I believe I asked him that night to use a condom and he ignored my request. (I was literally tied up as we are both into kink stuff. He had me tied up, I asked him to put a condom on, he refused and stuck it in anyways). Then it became a precedent.

Agent, can you see that your intentions are murky in this relationship? You're not firm about protected sex and you're not firm about the kind of commitment you want. Yes, if he flat out forced you into unprotected sex the first time, it's arguably a crime, but what about the second, third, fourth time? I'd urge you to focus on getting more stable about what you require for you and not focus so much on his behavior, which lets you down time and time again.

... her limits being discarded are somehow ok.

I get what you're saying, but putting the blame solely on the man isn't right. Limits don't just somehow get discarded, a woman participates in that. Each woman needs to learn how to draw clear boundaries and find people who encourage her safe exploration of her sexuality. Finding safe people and positive situations comes out of a healthy sense of herself, which is an ongoing pursuit. It takes two to discard limits and certainly it takes two when limits are discarded over and over again. Yes, the man is responsible here, but so is the woman. The woman is responsible for clearly and unequivocally communicating what she does and doesn't want. For a woman, that often doesn't come as easily as it does to a man, but all the same, respecting limits is something that both partners always have a hand in.

 

[Magdlyn]

Nycindie - we got drunk and had sex without a condom the first night we met. Yes, I know it was a mistake. I believe I asked him that night to use a condom and he ignored my request. (I was literally tied up as we are both into kink stuff. He had me tied up, I asked him to put a condom on, he refused and stuck it in anyways). Then it became a precedent.

I agree this was a mistake on my part and I should have insisted on condom use from the beginning.

When I got the sense he wanted something open, though, I told him if he would like to continue doing bareback sex with me, I would ask that he use a condom if he plans to fuck anyone else. He agreed, and got tested.

No, he didn't use a condom with the girl at the bar. And he didn't tell me that until I asked him, after he fucked me bareback as well.

I got tested again this morning, as I felt very uncomfortable with all this last week (my first time having sex with him after he slept with the other girl).

p.s. This is the same guy I was talking about in my updated thread today that you also responded to - "Finally had the talk."

I agree that it's okay for someone to not know what they want, however it becomes quite difficult when they keep changing their story on what they want, which is what he's done. In the beginning I didn't worry about it, and he treated me very much like a girlfriend for several months. Then when the convo came up about "We haven't defined our relationship" he said he wanted something long term and committed, as long as it wasn't monogamous, and thought he might be poly. Then he called me a "friend." Then two weeks later he said he wanted to date me, and bar girl, and other people. Then he said he didn't know what he wanted. Then he said he's noncommittal. Whenever I try to talk about poly, he acts as if I'm imposing rules on him and he doesn't want to discuss or figure it out between us. He refuses to use condoms with me or another girl, but then feels I'm imposing a "rule" when I ask for condoms. I have never imposed any rules without his consent. I have tried to talk about it, but we never get there because he already feels I'm imposing on him just by talking about poly.

Leaving out the forced non-consensual unprotected sex (!), your last paragraph makes me think about the research I did into Narcissistic Personality Disorder. People like that speak in a confusing "word salad" when confronted about relationship shape and goals. I went through that 2 years ago with a former partner. They gaslight, lie, backtrack and act ignorant of basic words to describe emotions. They are also usually kinky (and promiscuous), and enjoy forcing their partners to do sexual things that uncomfortably cross their ethical and moral boundaries, and sense of safety and security. This is fun for them, since they are devoid of compassion and merely use others as "narcissistic supply." They also "triangulate" their lovers, after the first period of idealization is over. Playing one against the other, and enjoying the jealousy that erupts. It's entertaining for them.

Girl, you deserve better. It's time to let go.

 

[AJM]

I did not even read the rest of the post... Hon, this is RAPE!

I agree. I can't even imagine the level of disrespect this act entails.

Edit: hmmm. I quoted Nayda but it didn't include the other quoted text :-(

 

[agentb2016]

Leaving out the forced non-consensual unprotected sex (!), your last paragraph makes me think about the research I did into Narcissistic Personality Disorder. People like that speak in a confusing "word salad" when confronted about relationship shape and goals. I went through that 2 years ago with a former partner. The gaslight, lie, backtrack and act ignorant of basic words to describe emotions. They are also usually kinky (and promiscuous), and enjoy forcing their partners to do sexual things that uncomfortably cross their ethical and moral boundaries, and sense of safety and security. This is fun for them, since they are devoid of compassion and merely use others as "narcissistic supply." They also "triangulate" their lovers, after the first period of idealization is over. Playing one against the other, and enjoying the jealousy that erupts. It's entertaining for them.

Girl, you deserve better. It's time to let go.

Magdlyn - someone else mentioned gas lighting in one of my other posts (was it you as well?

Everything you just described above sounds all too familiar to my case....(except for the triangulation part) :-s

I wonder if he has this narcissistic personality disorder. We had New Years together, and I remember him mentioning his resolution was to be "less narcissistic" this year.

I am feeling very torn about peoples' opinions about the first time with him being rape.

I don't think I was raped.
The sex and kink was consensual. I wanted it.
The not using a condom was not consensual, and unfortunately happened when I was tied up so I couldn't physically do anything to stop it. But I do remember asking him to put a condom on and him not doing it.
I said "I believe I asked him that night to use a condom and he ignored my request" because I was very drunk at the time, and my memory of it is foggy. It came back to me a few days ago for some reason.

I sort of agree with Karen here. Yes, the first time with nonconsensual bareback sex crossed a boundary I was not comfortable. But I guess after that I thought "well we've already done it without a condom" and I wanted to keep having sex so I let it keep happening, I am complicit in this.

"Finding safe people and positive situations comes out of a healthy sense of herself, which is an ongoing pursuit. It takes two to discard limits and certainly it takes two when limits are discarded over and over again. Yes, the man is responsible here, but so is the woman. The woman is responsible for clearly and unequivocally communicating what she does and doesn't want. For a woman, that often doesn't come as easily as it does to a man, but all the same, respecting limits is something that both partners always have a hand in."

This gives me mixed feelings. I agree and disagree. I had a very healthy sense of myself when I met him and do feel I have always been quite clear with him about things I have wanted and didn't want, including the condom thing. I don't know how much more clear I could have been than "Can you put a condom on?" "Can you communicate with me and include me in conversations about where you're at with poly?" "If we are going to be bareback, can you get tested and make sure you wear a condom with others?" "It would make me uncomfortable if you were to go sleep with another girl on your own right now (said while we were still figuring out where we stand on poly and the status of our relationship)" "Regardless of poly or mono, I know that I want to be working towards a genuine, long term committed relationship. I don't want casual sex right now."

These are all things I've said to him, many of which he did not respect.

However, I know I also do suffer from low self esteem and often have difficulty setting boundaries. I still am right now with him.

I'd urge you to focus on getting more stable about what you require for you and not focus so much on his behavior, which lets you down time and time again.

Yes, I am trying to work this out right now. But all this stuff is also quite tied up in the feelings of heartbreak and other mess of emotions I'm feeling right now.

 

[FallenAngelina]

These are all things I've said to him, many of which he did not respect.

One more comment and then I'll be quiet:
It's not the words you say when I mention having a healthy sense of yourself, it's your bearing, your choices, your image of yourself in the relationship and in the world. There's a lot of focus on the words we use to communicate with others, but really, words have minimal impact on how things evolve. Your internal life has a huge influence on what you experience in relationships and the good news here is that your internal life is always within your purview to change if things aren't going in a pleasing way.

 

[Magdlyn]

Magdlyn - someone else mentioned gas lighting in one of my other posts (was it you as well?)

It might have been me, or it might have been GalaGirl.

Everything you just described above sounds all too familiar to my case, except for the triangulation part.

No, he is triangulating you with his new victim, comparing you two. Telling you she's better than you. Less demanding, etc. Classic Narc behavior! My ex did that to me: "C and D would never say the things to me that you say!" Sure, they were "perfect" through his rose colored NRE glasses. I was, at that point, just familiar and boring. He'd gotten his jollies with me, I was predictable. And I was pissed off at his lack of attention. I was uncomfortable with crumbs of his attention. How dare I!

I wonder if he has this narcissistic personality disorder. We had New Years together, and I remember him mentioning his resolution was to be "less narcissistic" this year.

There you go. Some Narcs are aware, but they aren't really motivated to change. Narcs think they are special and don't have to play by the rules others do. They never seek treatment for their illness.