It's a Texlahoma Story

[Tinwen]

I guess the strongest emotion I have right now is sadness, and grief, that I didn't get the perfect mono life I wanted. Having to get my sexual needs met through other partners is a second choice option for me. It's better than losing Andy, and it's better than resenting him or being sexually frustrated. But it's not my ideal. I thought it could be wonderful, but it's basically been more trouble than it's worth.

It seems you are getting unstuck, at least on the Dag issue. That whole post reads important...

I agree with the girls, maybe there could be a second partner for you, who is more of a close friend. Didn't you say before that Stephanie is in Andy's life probably forever? Could you handle something like that?

Anyway, maybe it's not yet the time to ask, if you feel like grieving.

I hope all turns out well for you

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

This may be all the way out in pie-in-the-sky territory, but...

What if there were a Person out there somewhere who COULD give you happily-ever-after and fit into your life with Andy? Who could ride some kind of alternate-version escalator with you? Maybe not marriage, but lifelong partnership. Maybe not living together in joint-deed-ownership, but living down the street in a different white-picket-fence house with a more-or-less open-house policy where you and he could float in and out at will.

Is it Dag's unavailability—his restrictive relationship, his special-needs family, etc.—that makes it hurt? Or is it that it does have to be the legal commitment? Does "Andy, who trusts me not to do the life entanglement thing with other partners" mean that he'd be against you that sort of thing in addition, or just in replacement?

The "different white picket fence house" situation you described actually sounds a lot like what we have with K and R, well, other than the sex. K is family, forever, and so are her mom, sister, nephews, kids - and now her fiancé R. We don't live with them, we don't have any legal connections to them, but there is a lifelong commitment to be in each other's lives.

And the same is true of Stephanie. And my friend D.

I know living close to Steph, seeing her whenever, would be Andy's ideal, so I can't imagine him objecting to me wanting that from a boyfriend. As long as he, you know, got along with the dude. Both Andy and I would be in heaven to live 5 minutes from K and R. Right now they are 20 minutes, Steph is 20 minutes in the opposite direction, and D is a ten hour drive. Yet the "open house" policy still applies.

I guess the sticking point is, would he (would any of us) be comfortable planning our lives around staying all together? That's where it gets tough. Like, if it worked out that we lived next door to an OSO, that would be great. But would we sell our dream home and move across the state or across the country to stay close to them? Probably not.

On the other hand - even with D so far away, the commitment to each other is still there. I'd drive ten hours in a heartbeat if she needed me. And she'd do the same for me. I DON'T have that with Dag. With his DADT and his family situation, he can't drop everything. That does suck.

I also think you deserve all the nice semi rough vanilla sex with a manly man you want. I hear how you find the cross dressing cute, but not a turn-on. I'm somewhat attracted to androgyny. My Pixi is transgender, so it's kind of on that spectrum. I do think she's hot. She is super cute (and warm, and loving, and snuggly, and a great communicator, and funny, and brilliant, and great at fixing computers, etc etc). But the sex... well, it's less than 100% satisfying for me. She is quite subby, and while I enjoy Topping her, I also need a testosterone package to just attack me and be all over me. Sometimes Pixi is just too much of a "pillow princess" who wants to lie back and have things done to her. She doesn't get that "I'm so hungry for you, I am just gonna ravish you," attitude very often. Partly it's her anxiety issues that hold her back, because she can get more aggressive when she's had a few drinks to relax her inhibitions. But I want a man who is just so hot for me he can't keep his hands off me, even sober lol!

Thank you for this Andy can be a bit of a pillow princess at times, too That's really the heart of it, wanting to be lusted over, ravished... Dag definitely gives me that! Sometimes I do feel guilty for needing that, like hey, sex is sex, I should be fine with what Andy and I do together. But... Attitude matters, compatibility matters, style matters. I want Andy to get the sexual experiences he craves, whether it's with me or someone else. He wants the same for me.

Anyway, maybe it's not yet the time to ask, if you feel like grieving.

I'm such a "stuff all the emotions down and move on" person, so it's hard for me to know what is the right amount of time to grieve or process something I definitely need to do some thinking about all of this.

But also, I guess, I wonder if those "available" guys even exist. The idea of someone who I'm attracted to, who lusts after me and loves me, who gets along with my husband and my friends, who also wants me to be a big part of his life - now THAT seems pie-in-the-sky.

 

[Tinwen]

And I want sex with someone who's into it. Someone who enjoys the same things I do, who isn't doing it just for me, but for their own pleasure, too. Maybe that seems like a minor distinction, but to me it's important.

I totally get it. It's not a minor thing. At all.

But also, I guess, I wonder if those "available" guys even exist. The idea of someone who I'm attracted to, who lusts after me and loves me, who gets along with my husband and my friends, who also wants me to be a big part of his life - now THAT seems pie-in-the-sky.

I don't know. Maybe it's a little unicorn (prince on a white horse) hunting from us girls. But isn't it the same we hope to get in a partner in the first place? There is "just" that one extra condition poly; on the other hand some conditions may be relaxed, like getting along as roommates on a long-term basis.

But, depending on how much the sex issue is pressing, if you are basically content with your marriage, there is no hurry at all. Maybe you could have your standards that high up, and see if someone like that comes into your life or not?

Actually, I feel like I've got those things with Idealist, to a great extent, though you could object that I'm not getting on with Meta and my family is really hesitant to accept him, so it's not all rosy at all. But he's got the desire to have me sexually, and to be with me. He's available as much as he can, which is usually at least two times a week for an evening + perhaps some shorter meetups. Our friends circles and interests mesh well. He would like to have me in his life even more, and he's into it long-term
... unless it's me who's hesitant. Yes, the purely escalator stuff, cohabitation and children is a problem. But I think the problem is I don't have it at all, not that I don't have it with him. The question is - can I have it with someone else and maintain both relationships?

 

[AutumnLeaves]

That's really the heart of it, wanting to be lusted over, ravished... Dag definitely gives me that! Sometimes I do feel guilty for needing that, like hey, sex is sex, I should be fine with what Andy and I do together. But...

Just chiming in here to say that I don't think there's anything wrong with this! You don't get to decide what turns you on any more than anyone else does. I think it's great that you and Andy are so GGG both within your relationship and in understanding where needs aren't being met and allowing them to be met elsewhere.

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

I think it's great that you and Andy are so GGG both within your relationship and in understanding where needs aren't being met and allowing them to be met elsewhere.

It took us a while to get there! There were years where it felt like all we did was cry. I mean, we never wavered in our commitment to each other, but for a long time it seemed like one or the other of us was going to end up frustrated and miserable.

I'm not going to say opening up saved our marriage, but... It really has made a HUGE difference. That's why, no matter how ugh I get about dating others, I would never again be in any strictly monogamous relationship. There's such a weight off both of our shoulders, knowing we can be honest about what we like and don't like, what we are up for and what we aren't, without a "no" meaning the other person has to go without.

What's weird is that we've always had that attitude about emotional and practical needs. Andy loves travel, I don't (yay anxiety ) and I was saying, "Take Steph instead!" long before we were officially open. I don't know why it took us so long to say, hey, let's handle our sex life the way we handle everything else, we'll enjoy doing stuff we both like together, and find other awesome people for the stuff only one of us wants to do.

I don't know. Maybe it's a little unicorn (prince on a white horse) hunting from us girls. But isn't it the same we hope to get in a partner in the first place? There is "just" that one extra condition poly; on the other hand some conditions may be relaxed, like getting along as roommates on a long-term basis.

But, depending on how much the sex issue is pressing, if you are basically content with your marriage, there is no hurry at all. Maybe you could have your standards that high up, and see if someone like that comes into your life or not?

I just feel like I'd be waiting forever...

And that sends me back to, why can't I just manage casual sex, or even regular FWBs, and just enjoy that? Why do I get so damn attached and emotional? Because I don't need a second romantic relationship or partnership, it's just that I sleep with somebody and get all starry eyed and ... Ugh.

My friends have said I should just pick fuck buddies who aren't my type. People I won't be able to imagine a future with. Actually, since they are my friends, it's more like, "Hey, remember that guy I was screwing a couple of years ago? The one who lived with his mom and posted dumb anti-immigrant rants on Facebook? You should call him! He was amazing at eating pussy and even you couldn't bond with that dude!"

But the thing is... I'm not ATTRACTED to those guys. If I don't get starry eyed, I don't want sex. I don't want a stunt dick, I want a ruggedly handsome nerd with a heart of gold. You know, the kind of guy people get attached to

 

[Tinwen]

My friends have said I should just pick fuck buddies who aren't my type.

Ugh

Anyway, thank you for sharing what sex triggers in you. I don't have that much experience with out of partnership sex (ok, none with intercourse). And I had the chance for an... encounter... with a friend last night and your experience definitely was entering my mind while I was deciding.

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

So, in the spirit of sharing the "good stuff"...

I had a great night out with Dag last night. It's triple digit temps here in Texas, so we sweated our way from one dark, air conditioned bar to the next. He really is one of my favorite people to hang out with

He's also been making a real effort lately, which means a lot to me. There's a lot of stuff I know he just can't give me, but he's trying to do more when he can. Like he's saying "I love you" more, just out of the blue. He spent a long time looking at lake house ideas with me, and he's talking about ways he can help with the various projects. He put a ton of his childhood and family pictures on his phone so I could look through them. That kind of thing goes a long way toward making me feel better about us.

Goofy pic of me trying on his glasses...
http://www.polyamory.com/forum/album.php?albumid=941&pictureid=3396

I feel like my vision is getting worse, like I can't read words at a distance as well as I could a few years ago. Like road signs, or a menu board across a restaurant. But instead of getting my eyes checked like a normal person, I just borrow everybody's glasses and check to see if any of them help! So far no, all glasses just make things bigger, but still blurry, and also bendy at the edges On the other hand, Dag said glasses make me look like the naughty librarian in a cheesy porno

The more observant folks will notice that Dag is wearing his wedding ring on his middle finger... Yup, he wears it like that all the time, work, home, everywhere. I have tried suggesting that maaaaybe that's sending too much if a message If he doesn't feel right wearing it on his ring finger, he could just not wear it at all. But he swears his wife doesn't care, his kids are oblivious, and nobody but me has ever noticed. Um, ok Not my ring, not my finger, not my business, I guess.

I also had a good talk with Andy, he's been going through some stuff with Anna-Louise - she's engaged again, maybe this one will last more than a month, lol. But he feels kind of like he's being pushed out as a *friend* in addition to being cut out as a friend-boy while she tries monogamy yet again. Not much I can do but listen. I think they're having lunch today, I hope it goes ok, I know she's super important to him despite her flakiness.

It was also a chance for Andy and I to talk more about our "ideal poly"...

We've obviously grown and changed a lot in the past few years, but we've never officially sat down and like, restated our boundaries or anything. It's always been situational - hey, I might do this, you cool with it or no? - rather than a big deliberate discussion. Both of us have moved a lot more toward the kitchen table poly end of things. It's funny because we're both wary of promising to spend any time with metamours - we want to keep the option of "ugh, I don't particularly like him/her, so don't expect me to hang out, and please go somewhere else for dates". But when it turns out that we DO happen to like our metas, we are both totally up for more entangled stuff, maybe something like what we have with our close platonic friends. So that's good to know

Anyway, thank you for sharing what sex triggers in you. I don't have that much experience with out of partnership sex (ok, none with intercourse). And I had the chance for an... encounter... with a friend last night and your experience definitely was entering my mind while I was deciding.

Well, I hope I didn't scare you off sex entirely

It might be worth a little experimenting to learn how *you* react to out-of-partnership sex, although a close friend might not be the best choice for it. Because about half of my friends DO totally enjoy random NSA hook-ups with hot guys, and the other half are like me... We get attached, or if we don't, the sex is meh. I think how you'll feel during/after casual-ish sex is one of those things that you kind of have to experience to learn.

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

Something Spork wrote on another thread made me think...

But my point is that most men I know seem to think that there are only two kinds of women in the world. Sluts you have meaningless sex with and feel nothing for, and respectable ladies you marry and bring home to mama and love. That's it.

She's right I mean, not all men, blah blah blah. But the Madonna - whore thing is pretty common. I worry about it constantly with Dag, that in his eyes my enjoyment of sex means I'm not good for anything else. It's probably where a lot of my, "but you'd marry me if we weren't married to other people right???" questioning comes from. Deep down I'm worried he sees me as a slut, and what we do as meaningless sex, and I'm looking for him to tell me that isn't true.

I never felt that way with my ex boyfriends. They'd randomly say things like, "I wish you could meet my mom" or, "my kids would love you!" that reminded me they saw me as a whole person, a good person. With Dag... Every time I've said something like, "I bet your sister and I would get along really well", he has just FREAKED OUT. Stammers something about how awkward it would be. Ugh. I get that his wife doesn't want to meet me, fine, but I don't see why he can't introduce me ~as a friend~ to other people in his life. Not, "I'm poly and this is my girlfriend", just, "this is my friend Claire." The fact that he won't even talk about it hypothetically makes me feel very much like the dumb slut side piece.

The other day, we were texting, and he mentioned one of his kids had a weird rash, they were worried it might be chicken pox. I asked a few questions, had a couple of ideas. Then Dag was all, you don't want to hear about this! Rashes aren't sexy! He actually said that. I mean, what??? I work with little kids. I am a champion at Identify The Weird Blotchy Spot. Stuff like that, it just reinforces the feeling he is putting me into this narrow little box.

So, some days I do feel like the whore to his wife the Madonna. Especially because, at least from what Dag says, she is sooooo different from me when it comes to sex. Dag is her only sexual partner ever, which makes my count of twelve look seriously promiscuous. She hasn't talked to her daughter about sex beyond the basic mechanics, which... Ugh don't get me started. Consent, agency, pleasure, protection - these are things kids NEED to learn about. Aaaand then there's the fact that I had to teach Dag how to give oral, because his wife thinks it's gross. (Side note, ladies, if you want really good oral sex, find a dude with zero preconceived ideas who's excited to learn )

I whine a lot about not being involved in Dag's life, not getting to live together, not getting my nesting fix... I wonder how much of my angst comes from really needing that stuff, and how much comes from worrying that Dag doesn't see or appreciate that side of me. I've said here before, it's less about getting married and more about being seen as "marriage material"... And it's interesting that I didn't have this constant stress in my previous relationships, where I felt like I could be sexy without being seen as a nympho. Hmmmm.

 

[Spork]

It's kind of an ugly concept, but I do think it's there in many dudes. I've found that guys in my lifestyle community are less like that, with some exceptions who are more swingerish but still more respectful.

And I totally concur that an inexperienced man who is eager to learn is a joy...I'm Zen's first for some stuff and he's a fantastic lover!

 

[IndieSolo]

Hi GFT,
It does sound like Dag's put you in the Mistress category in his mind.

But how did you respond when he said that?

I know for sure that if I had been in your shoes and heard "Rashes aren't sexy!" I would have said to him, "Aren't I more than just sex with you? Can't I be a friend, interested in your life, helpful when possible, even with unsexy rashes? Or am I just your Mistress, and only supposed to be concerned about getting off?"

Why not confront him, get clear about what he means? It doesn't have to be said in an angry tone, just be matter-of-fact, but let him know how frustrating and perplexing it is to hear him say shit like that. That is the only way you can get closer to him, I think, by revealing how he affects you. I also think that talking to him about these things will help to not let them continue to eat away at you. You don't speak your truth in the moment and then wrestle with it in secret, because somehow you think you aren't allowed to show him a messy, problematic side to you - well, maybe you are playing into the Mistress role yourself, you know, by doing that.

Did you speak up at all?

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

It's kind of an ugly concept, but I do think it's there in many dudes. I've found that guys in my lifestyle community are less like that, with some exceptions who are more swingerish but still more respectful.

You know, I didn't even make the connection, but both my ex-bf's were involved with kink stuff. I wonder if being in that space influenced them. Or maybe guys with a nuanced, healthy view of sex seek out kinky spaces

Also, fuck I miss rope. Just sayin'.

But how did you respond when he said that?

I told him I'm the ringworm spotting champ of [my work] and asked for pics!

You don't speak your truth in the moment and then wrestle with it in secret, because somehow you think you aren't allowed to show him a messy, problematic side to you - well, maybe you are playing into the Mistress role yourself, you know, by doing that.

You're right about that ...

I've actually thought about going back into therapy or something, to figure out WHY I'm so uncomfortable being messy and problematic with Dag. Because I somehow have managed to negotiate healthy, happy, secure relationships with Andy, with my friends, with exes. Normally I'm ... Well, normal

Aaaand I've tried to write out an explanation of "why Dag makes me crazy" like five times, but nothing seems to get the point across.

So, short and sweet, it SUCKS to really care about someone, and need them, and know that you will never, ever, ever get to be part of their "real" life.

Also - Anna-Louise is not just engaged, she's engaged to a super rich dude who she had an affair with ten years ago. Now he lives across the country, and they've been chatting online whopping 3 months, but she's getting married and moving! Sigh. You know, this whole set up is sooooo Anna-Louise, it will probably work out great for her. And if not, she'll have new crazy stories to tell.

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

Warning, whining ahead

I'm so sad right now. Just weepy sad. Being in love with someone you can't be with all the time hurts.

It's just getting to me today because Dag is trying SO HARD to make me happy and show me that he cares, and... It all just feels like settling for scraps.

He texted me just to say, I wish I could see you, here's a pic of me, send one of you when you get a chance, I miss you so much. Sweet. And it did make me feel like he cared. But, swapping pictures is just so pitiful, when you compare it to "I'll be home at 6, can't wait to see you". That's what I want.

What really hurts is that a picture seems like enough for him. He's good now. That's all the Claire he needed. Or maybe not, who knows. But I don't feel like he's hurting the way I am. I want to talk to him about it, because part of me thinks, just having these feelings reciprocated would help. And then I wonder if it would just make it worse.

You know how poly people are always stressing about NRE? I never got that. The excitement and butterflies of a new relationship are fun, but I was always eager to run home to Andy, feel safe and cozy again. It just takes me forever to open up to people, and trust them, and feel safe with them.

It's like I've finally reached that point with Dag, where I feel like I actually know him and need him. Eighteen months. That's apparently when the Claire version of NRE (ORE?) kicks in. And it fucking sucks. Every cell in my body is saying, ok, I really like this guy, let's get a dog and a fixer upper and spend our weekends refinishing floors together!

And I don't get to have that. I don't even get anything close, I don't get the "different house, same street" thing, where he could stop by and give me a hug on his way to have dinner with his family, then we could all watch a movie together later.

I don't know what to do. I love him. I'm miserable. And every thing he tries to make me feel better just makes me feel worse. Fuck. This. Non-Escalator. Bullshit.

 

[Magdlyn]

Ugh, honey, it all just sounds so hard.

Sometimes love is not enough, you know. He's a nice guy, you love him, the sex is great, he says and does *some* things you feel great about.

But the more you post examples, like "rashes aren't sexy," and "send me a pic, hrrrr...," "Not only can you never meet my (repressed nearly virginal wife) you can't even meet my sister," I see you feel like a whorish side piece.

You are settling for less than you really need. And it's doing a number on your self esteem. Hey, I did that for 30 years with my husband, so I know the feeling. Coming from an earlier generation, I felt I should do everything I could to keep my marriage to a "great guy" intact, including burying and denying many of my true needs and drives and joys. The sex was great, he made good money, he was a good (ish) dad, he wasn't an addict, he came home every night, he was loyal. He was decent. He ate everything I cooked, and complimented me on it. He had progressive politics. We had the 3 kids, 2 cars, and a dog thing.

But it wasn't enough!

We did tons of counseling but I couldn't make his sow's ear into a silk purse. I still felt unfulfilled. He had low self esteem and wanted to control my sexuality. I felt constantly spied upon. Even my platonic relationships were suspect. Also, he was old school: the wife does all the housework. Never in 30 years (after a year of NRE wore off) did he cook a meal, pick up a broom, or fold one item of his own or our kids' laundry. He left his dirty clothes on the floor. He left little piles of toenail clippings on the carpet next to his desk chair in our bedroom. He also lied about the extent of his sexual desires for others, in a bid to "set a good example" for slutty me.

Anyway, many of our issues were different from yours. I finally figured out he was 60% right for me, 40% wrong. Even though he came out more positive than negative, the negatives made my life rather miserable. So I took the plunge and we separated.

I hear you fear that splitting with Dag means you might never find another. This is just fear. Of course you will. It might take a little patience, but you will. If I could find someone, at 54 and overweight, you surely can and will.

For now though, as you hang on and try to negotiate, you might try a bit of a perspective switch. Instead of thinking, "Dag drives me up the wall," think of it, and phrase it like this, in conversations:

"When you say X, I feel Y." That way you're not making him responsible for your feelings.

Examples:

When you say, "Rashes aren't sexy," I feel all you want from me is sex. I also feel unappreciated for this skill (which happens to be a nonsexual skill) of identifying rashes or childhood diseases.

When you say, "No, you can't meet my sister," I feel like all I am is a body to you, just someone to fuck. I feel like a sexual side piece and I know I deserve better.

When you say, "Send me a picture," I feel sad, because I want to be so much more to a partner than just a 2D image. I have a wish to be more entangled in your life. I am feeling like a whore to your wife's madonna, and it's really messing me up.

If you just come right out and tell him that feeling merely a mistress is majorly fucking with your head, then he has 2 choices. Become fine and truly excited about enmeshing more with you, or acknowledge that isn't what he wants, and breaking up. Less than that will leave you in the same hamster wheel.

You have your own fear of "scarcity" going on. "I'll never meet another man even as good as Dag (which isn't very good but oh well)!!!" Many poly people come to a realisation of abundance instead. There are lots of single, partnered and married men who will happily enmesh more with you than Dag seems to want to. Just make sure he knows you NEED to be more enmeshed. You might have been putting up a false facade, and that is not a kindness to him. You don't want to be a one-dimensional fucktoy, but maybe he is not fully aware of that.

 

[IndieSolo]

. . . Dag is trying SO HARD to make me happy and show me that he cares . . .

Well, there's trying and there's doing. He may be trying, but he ain't doing it.

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

You have your own fear of "scarcity" going on. "I'll never meet another man even as good as Dag (which isn't very good but oh well)!!!" Many poly people come to a realisation of abundance instead. There are lots of single, partnered and married men who will happily enmesh more with you than Dag seems to want to.

I really do have the scarcity mentality It's not that I think there is a shortage of great guys... Or even that I'm afraid none of them will be attracted to me... It's just there are so few people who do poly in a healthy way. I'm sick of DADT policies, and I'm terrified of wives who wield rules and vetoes like weapons.

But I absolutely need to shake that "this is the best I can do" feeling. I need to evaluate this relationship with Dag from a place of security, not fear and panic.

I'm going to spend today thinking about things I can do to change this mindset. A few I have come up with...

1) Go to poly meet ups so I stop feeling like the only poly person in DFW. I have lots of non-mono friends, but they are mostly just interested in one night stands or casual fuck buddies.

2) make a list of my must-haves and deal breakers in dating. I know I can't show up to first dates with a list but if I can get clear in my head about, say, not wanting to date people who do vetoes, it would help me feel more confident about avoiding shitty situations

3) work on my sex life with Andy, so I don't feel like being boyfriend-less means going without orgasms. Our sex live has been pretty focused on his needs since I started seeing Dag. But there's no reason he can't do for me what I do for him, the twice-a-week-ish, no reciprocation required toy session.

4) go out with my girls and get my flirt on - it has been forever since I've done that! I'm always either with Dag or with Andy, and K is still swoony in NRE with R. And E has been struggling emotionally lately, so he just holes up with his Grindr app instead of dragging us to drunk bingo. Well, that's gonna change, kids I need a confidence boost, I need to get dressed up and turn heads.

I guess in addition to working on that stuff, I should also talk to Dag. Hmmmph. Talking to Dag sounds much less fun than getting a pedicure and shopping for new sex toys.

 

[breathemusic]

That definitely sounds like a great list, ESPECIALLY getting out there to some poly meet-ups and that sort of thing! And while I agree that you should probably talk to Dag, it might make sense to focus on some of those other list items so that you can get back to that place of confidence before you have another discussion with him.... otherwise that discussion is going to continue to come from a place of fear/scarcity.

 

[Spork]

In the spirit of your making of a list of needs in relationships, such as "no veto power meta situations"...

It might be a good time to examine your situation now and your past relationships and seek anything that has come up more than once and caused you hurt. Chew on that concept until you get at the root of it. And figure out how to talk about it with new date guys to weed out the ones who will bring that same issue into your life again.

I think many women (people?) have some kind of a programming that sets us up for a bad relationship habit and finding it, in order to break it, is a challenge. If a number of men treat me badly in a similar way, the answer isn't to hate men or resign from relationships...the common denominator is me, and clearly I've got a malfunction in my picker. So I need to find it and work on repairing it, right?

This is advice I want to broadcast to men and women alike in the dating world. For everything from "women always friend zone me" to "men always use me" and everything in between...we have to work on ourselves first. And I see very clearly that you have this mentality, so I'm kind of preaching to the choir. But you may need to refine and polish your needs and expectations, do a nice edited final draft on your script, so that future relationships give you what you need.

Also, I hate to say this (and making no assumptions, I don't know how you do) but I had to learn the hard way that jumping into sex too soon can be a problem. That it isn't about being cheap or easy, or playing coy games of hard to get, which was why I got so frustrated before like "why am I not allowed to want sex??" It's about building trust by making the time and space to get to know each other.

So if I want more than a brief fling, I want a reasonably solid relationship where I feel respected and loved...I cannot go in, and, within the first couple of weeks, both explain to the guy that I might fall in love with him and I need him to be cool with that and sure let's bounce right into the sack...get feelsy and swoony and throw the L-word at him and expect him to trust that I'm not going to hide in his bushes and go through his mail. He doesn't know me well enough yet! In order for a man to not be scared of my feels, he's got to not be scared of ME, so he's got to be given some time. This seems obvious to many people...but it was not obvious to me. Thus, Zen is the healthiest relationship I've ever had to date...because I feel I've given it better time and space to grow.

But what is weird is that it seems I can have these negotiating talks where I explain what makes me tick, and we can go on with that a while...as long as sex is not involved. Introduce sex to the picture too soon, and you've got a guy who is suddenly scared I'm trying to trap him. Maybe that's just how they are wired.

So in your case...spending some time getting to know prospects and dating and educating them on your relationship needs, being honest on who you are and what makes you happy...it won't do anything for any urgent desires to get laid, but it would help you to not feel a lack of emotional investment on their part later on. I have found that disclaimering my love habits very early, and certainly prior to sex, helps me weed out men who are emotionally unavailable.

 

[InfinitePossibility]

make a list of my must-haves and deal breakers in dating. I know I can't show up to first dates with a list but if I can get clear in my head about, say, not wanting to date people who do vetoes, it would help me feel more confident about avoiding shitty situations

Have the list in your head. Have it there long before you get to the first date. No need to share it with dates but it is easier to weed people out if you know what you look for in the first place.

I have a very close person in my life who at one time in his life found himself a widower suddenly with 3 very young children - all under 2. When he decided it was time to look for a new partner, he had a long and very detailed list of what attributes the new partner needed to have. Everybody was sceptical that such a person could be found - some of the attributes seemed contradictory and others seemed like things that would be difficult to find. Nevertheless, with list firmly in head, this new widower went out and found himself a partner who fitted every one of the criteria on the list. They've been together for years now and have another child. I remain convinced that having a great deal of understanding of himself and what he was looking for really helped. Plus, he was not at all put off that it seemed like a difficult task. He remained confident that what he wanted was possible.

IP

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

It might be a good time to examine your situation now and your past relationships and seek anything that has come up more than once and caused you hurt. Chew on that concept until you get at the root of it. And figure out how to talk about it with new date guys to weed out the ones who will bring that same issue into your life again.

I think many women (people?) have some kind of a programming that sets us up for a bad relationship habit and finding it, in order to break it, is a challenge. If a number of men treat me badly in a similar way, the answer isn't to hate men or resign from relationships...the common denominator is me, and clearly I've got a malfunction in my picker. So I need to find it and work on repairing it, right?

It's funny because I've been thinking about that all morning!

The pattern that stands out to me is that I jump into relationships too fast. Not even sex, although that's related, more on that in a minute, but the whole "let's be super official boyfriend and girlfriend!!!" stuff. And once I label something that way, once I start thinking about it that way, I'm focused on making it work, no matter what. And that's not a healthy mindset. I mean, it may not EVER be a healthy mindset, but it's definitely not where I should be one month into dating someone.

It's also problematic that I go for those guys in the first place, the ones who are super eager to make things official and commit and stop dating others. I know I passed on a lot of great guys simply because they weren't begging me for exclusivity on date 3. When a guy takes his time on that stuff, I tend to think, he's not that into me, I deserve someone who really wants me. And that's not completely off base. But maybe instead I should think, I deserve someone who wants to be sure we're a good fit before promising me the world.

Also, I hate to say this (and making no assumptions, I don't know how you do) but I had to learn the hard way that jumping into sex too soon can be a problem. That it isn't about being cheap or easy, or playing coy games of hard to get, which was why I got so frustrated before like "why am I not allowed to want sex??" It's about building trust by making the time and space to get to know each other.
...

But what is weird is that it seems I can have these negotiating talks where I explain what makes me tick, and we can go on with that a while...as long as sex is not involved. Introduce sex to the picture too soon, and you've got a guy who is suddenly scared I'm trying to trap him. Maybe that's just how they are wired.

I have issues when I jump into sex too soon, too... Though it's less that my feels scare the guy, and more that the sex clouds my judgement And I hate that, but it's a pattern, one I need to work on. Before I sleep with someone - even after the first couple of times we sleep together - I'm pretty clear headed. But once those hormonal bonding feels kick in? All I can think about is "how do I keep this guy around?" When what I SHOULD be paying attention to is "is this a good relationship for me?"

IP - your story gives me hope I'm not expecting to find Mr. Absolutely Perfect, but there are some things (many things!) on which I should not compromise.

 

[Spork]

Well yeah, I guess...my new approach is not to expect or demand too much commitment, too soon, but to start conversations early with, "This is what I'm looking for. This is what I'm liable to feel or to need. If the very idea of this bothers or frightens you, then move along before either of us wastes one more moment of our time."

I KNOW that if I have sex with a man, there's a good chance...not an absolute, but a chance...that I'll get strong feelings. And the fact that they are "only" hormones or "just" NRE/limerance/whatever...doesn't change the fact that it hurts like hell when men go emotionally or physically distant on me.

That was my Big Important Lesson from the Worm King. I jumped in sexually right away, got feels right away, and informed him that I was going to stop dating others, but he didn't need to, just that I wanted him to know I was really enjoying him and my needs were met with him. And in return, I got the treatment and lack of consideration that a "normal" man gives to a slut. He had me over for sex here and there for a while and then flaked.

And I'm the crazy one for being hurt.

But I DO believe it's possible to have a fulfilling relationship with respect, love, and the right feelings of commitment if you're not escalator with a guy. You can create your own milestones. You can find ways to basically escalate without escalating. But you've got to find someone creative and enlightened and willing to be and do that.