It's a Texlahoma Story

GirlFromTexlahoma said:
IP - your story gives me hope :D I'm not expecting to find Mr. Absolutely Perfect, but there are some things (many things!) on which I should not compromise.
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Thanks. :) And yes - compromise is okay but there are some things that each of us cannot compromise on without suffering - and I think it's okay to know what those things are and not compromise on them.


Well yeah, I guess...my new approach is not to expect or demand too much commitment, too soon, but to start conversations early with, "This is what I'm looking for. This is what I'm liable to feel or to need. If the very idea of this bothers or frightens you, then move along before either of us wastes one more moment of our time."
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I don't even do that. I might have a conversation about marriage and children - but just as chit chat. However, if I'm talking to a potential romantic partner who tells me that marriage is important to them or that they really feel they need to have children to be happy, things don't go any further. Or even if they don't say that but express surprise at my stance on marriage and children, I wouldn't go further with them. These are not things I'm willing to compromise on - and I also don't want to end up in love with somebody who is not happy because they are compromising for me.

I don't tell them upfront that a desire for marriage or children is a deal breaker for me because people so often are willing to try and bend themselves pretzel like just so that they can be in a relationship or pretend to be what they are not so that they can get sex.

I just have a chat about it knowing that on my mental list marriage and children are a deal breaker.
 
Spork said:
Well yeah, I guess...my new approach is not to expect or demand too much commitment, too soon, but to start conversations early with, "This is what I'm looking for. This is what I'm liable to feel or to need. If the very idea of this bothers or frightens you, then move along before either of us wastes one more moment of our time."
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That's hard though... Because "what I'm liable to feel or to need" varies soooo much depending on the person :confused:

I mean, yes, I'm likely to eventually develop strong feelings when I sleep with someone. I guess I'm lucky (???) in that I've never been with a guy who was bothered by the feelings part of it. Maybe because it does take a while before "crazy in love" kicks in for me, and even longer before I'll say anything. I hide my hormonal clinginess well. I don't talk about it with guys, I just act out by trying to be a Stepford Wife ;)

Even with Dag, it's not feelings that are the issue. It's that he doesn't see feelings as necessarily meaning more time together or more entanglement. I didn't know I'd feel that way, either, to be honest.

Really, I had no idea that I'd ever be sad I couldn't meet Dag's kids, or his friends, or his sister. Those are feelings that have really only surfaced in the past six months. I didn't even know I'd care about him meeting Andy... Until I did.

I dated my most recent ex for a year and never wanted any of that. He never met my husband, and it was fine. Despite my being head over heels for him. It was just... Different. Different people, different vibe, different needs.

I think what I need is to just SLOW IT DOWN, you know? Not have a ton of expectations for how I will feel, or what some guy will want after 3 months, 6 months, a year. And to feel like it's ok for wants and needs and feelings to change. Not that I'll always get whatever I want, but ... I'd like to lose this feeling of, well, I agreed to this, now I'm stuck with it :cool:

Hmmmm, I just read that last sentence over, and... Why on earth do I think I can't make changes in my relationship? I guess it's the Be A Good Girlfriend chorus in my head. Ugh.

I just wish I could shake the sense that there are so few good guys available, and I have to Do All The Right Things to get one and keep him. I wish I could summon the confidence to be like, hey, I'm just going to date a bunch of people, and not commit to anything closed with anybody, and not feel pressured to have sex, and not feel pressured to NOT have sex... Just enjoy myself, see who's out there.

I mean, I've tried. But whenever I meet someone who seems like a catch, I forget about my plan, forget about everything except ~Must Win The Guy's Heart~ :rolleyes: And then I do, he loves me, and it should be great, but inside I'm like, "wait, I forgot to stop and see if this was a good idea!"

I should've been on The Bachelor or something.
 
Well, trying to figure out my relationship must-haves was... interesting :rolleyes:

I might want to meet your kids someday. Or not! I don't want to be, like, required to meet them or anything. Well, I could handle being required to meet them once, I just can't promise I'll want to spend a ton of time with them, you know? Also, I might ~think~ I'm fine not meeting the kids, and then feel differently after a year or two. How do I know if I'll care about that? We just started dating, I barely know you!

Copy and paste that mess for meeting metamours, overnights, travel, how much time we spend together, kink stuff, etc, etc. The only things I'm actually sure about are 1) I can't legally marry anybody, since I'm already married and 2) you need to like dogs.

Sigh.

What it comes down to is, I'd like to know that whatever needs or feelings come up, I can talk about them - and my partner will listen, and treat those needs and feelings as valid, and not be dismissive or defensive.

I don't feel that way with Dag right now. The way he laughs off my talk about meeting his friends and family... How when I say "if we lived together...", he cuts me off with "We'd be sick of each other like all couples!" ... The way he changes the subject when I bring up more overnights... All of that just makes me feel like he doesn't HEAR me. I don't need to get everything I want, all of the time. But I do need to know my emotions will be taken seriously. That even if the answer is, "I can't give you that", I won't be judged for WANTING it. I want somebody who follows "I can't give you that" with "but I hear that it's really important to you, and I understand why, and I want to talk about it with you and see if there's anything I CAN do."

Is that really too much to expect :confused:
 
Maybe the list isn't about what you *have* to have, but what needs to at least be a *possibility* if the relationship is growing that way. Right now, none of those things seem to ever even be a maybe in the future, which keeps your relationship stuck in this tiny box with no way to grow *if* you want it to.

Ultimately, this leads back to DADT being the biggest problem as that is placing soooo many limitations on you 2.
 
breathemusic said:
Ultimately, this leads back to DADT being the biggest problem as that is placing soooo many limitations on you 2.
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DADT is just the worst. Having been in that position at one point, I have very strong opinions about this. I made it very clear after about six months that I couldn't do it anymore.

Aaaaand that's when the drama started with Rider's ex. He wasn't willing to lose me over continuing DADT, I wasn't willing to stay with him if it continued, and his ex wasn't happy once Rider let her know that staying DADT was no longer an option for him. Cue seven months of shit being terrible till they finally realized that they wanted different enough things that they needed to break up.

I think anyone in that situation who doesn't want to be there—who is miserable—needs to make that clear to their partner. Even if you used to be cool with it and things have changed. You're allowed to change. Your partner may say tough titty and they break up with you...or your partner might go to their other partner and renegotiate and they might break up. But either way, you won't be miserable anymore—at least, not once the drama and/or heartbreak wears off. I feel like the ongoing drama/misery of an incompatible relationship is way worse than the finite drama/misery of a breakup.
 
GirlFromTexlahoma said:
What it comes down to is, I'd like to know that whatever needs or feelings come up, I can talk about them - and my partner will listen, and treat those needs and feelings as valid, and not be dismissive or defensive.
...
Is that really too much to expect :confused:
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No, it's not.
Or yes it is.
I think you can expect someone to be in the habit of listening. You can expect them to be understanding most times of most topics.
What you can't expect is to be understanding of everything all the time. People will have a sore spot or two which gets them defensive pretty quickly, times where they are not up to listening, etc.
I doesn't sound Dag is in the habit of listening though. It could be he needs some specific form of communication (like making them aware that "I need you to listen without judgement now, please"), could be it's his sore spot... But I don't think so. I think he does not quite understand how to be understanding.
Would be a dealbreaker to me.
 
My narcissist ex Ginger started mocking my feelings and laughing at my pain towards the end. Combined with all the other shit he was pulling, that was the death knell to us as a couple.
 
That DADT policy is definitely the "third rail" of our relationship... The sore spot, as Tinwen put it. To Dag, his DADT is just a thing that exists, like gravity, and liking or disliking it is pointless. It just is. I cannot even mention my frustration with it - or anything tangentially related to it - without him getting defensive.

I wish I wasn't such a chicken. I wish I could work up the nerve to tell Dag, hey, I'm stressed and miserable, I need to dial us back to friendship for a while, and figure out what I actually want and need in a relationship.

Because I do need that. I never expected that this relationship would last 18 months, and I had no idea how my feelings would change over time. And I'm too caught up in the "don't want to lose him", it's clouding my ability to see my own needs. Every time we have sex, every time he tells me he loves me, I think, I can't possibly give him up, and... I stop thinking about what *I* want, I stop thinking about anything except making him happy.

But I'm so scared he'll be angry and hate me and I'll lose my friend.
 
You seem to look at me saying about the disclaimer of "how you're liable to feel" and then because you cannot be 100% concrete in predicting it to set up an expectation, it dissolves into confusion... But what I am seeing in your responses is in fact, fairly clear.

Think of it as a hallway of doors, and you want certain doors to be open for certain possibilities in the future. What you need to filter out before it becomes problematic, in a new relationship, in my opinion...are men who are so rigid in the style of relationship they want/need that those doors are firmly closed.

In your position, I'd be telling men of interest, or even putting it on a profile for dating if I were doing the online thing...that what I want in a partner is someone with whom it can evolve comfortably and organically. One where I will never feel like his dirty secret, and where if one day we both reach a point where it feels comfortable, there is the possibility, the open door, to become more and more a part of one another's lives.

But that more than anything, whatever winds up evolving or not in the relationship and how it is logistically handled...that comfortable communication is critically important. That you can find compromises on how the relationship operates, so long as you can both TALK about it and your partner doesn't make you feel dismissed, shut out, or shut down.

So if talking about possibilities, hopes, dreams, and feelings bothers you (you being new date guy) makes you feel pressured or trapped, then do not apply. Whether we actually DO this or that is a separate matter, but you've got to at least show up for the conversations.

That's what I'm seeing.

And it parallels with what I disclaimered with my dates, which wasn't that I WOULD develop feelings for a man after sex, even if it was "too soon"...but that I MIGHT...and I simply couldn't stand for a man who is scared of that, or thinks it's some kind of a trap. I was like, "So ask yourself now. If this happened, would it bother you? I'm not saying it WILL...but I need a partner who is OK if it does, because it MIGHT." Emotionally unavailable guys have been my bane, I'm trying to avoid 'em.

I don't see a problem with asking someone to be a bit flexible and open in their thinking, and willing to consider things that you MIGHT end up wanting.
 
GirlFromTexlahoma said:
That DADT policy is definitely the "third rail" of our relationship... The sore spot, as Tinwen put it. To Dag, his DADT is just a thing that exists, like gravity, and liking or disliking it is pointless. It just is. I cannot even mention my frustration with it - or anything tangentially related to it - without him getting defensive.

I wish I wasn't such a chicken. I wish I could work up the nerve to tell Dag, hey, I'm stressed and miserable, I need to dial us back to friendship for a while, and figure out what I actually want and need in a relationship.

Because I do need that. I never expected that this relationship would last 18 months, and I had no idea how my feelings would change over time. And I'm too caught up in the "don't want to lose him", it's clouding my ability to see my own needs. Every time we have sex, every time he tells me he loves me, I think, I can't possibly give him up, and... I stop thinking about what *I* want, I stop thinking about anything except making him happy.

But I'm so scared he'll be angry and hate me and I'll lose my friend.
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To this I can only send virtual hugs and sympathy. It's such a hard position to be in. The desire to simultaneously hang on and let go...to respect your needs but not hurt or anger the other person. I'm struggling with it, too.
 
GirlFromTexlahoma said:
That DADT policy is definitely the "third rail" of our relationship... The sore spot, as Tinwen put it. To Dag, his DADT is just a thing that exists, like gravity, and liking or disliking it is pointless. It just is. I cannot even mention my frustration with it - or anything tangentially related to it - without him getting defensive.

I wish I wasn't such a chicken. I wish I could work up the nerve to tell Dag, hey, I'm stressed and miserable, I need to dial us back to friendship for a while, and figure out what I actually want and need in a relationship.

Because I do need that. I never expected that this relationship would last 18 months, and I had no idea how my feelings would change over time. And I'm too caught up in the "don't want to lose him", it's clouding my ability to see my own needs. Every time we have sex, every time he tells me he loves me, I think, I can't possibly give him up, and... I stop thinking about what *I* want, I stop thinking about anything except making him happy.

But I'm so scared he'll be angry and hate me and I'll lose my friend.
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If he doesn't understand and stops being your "friend," then he wasn't much of a friend in the first place.
 
Spork said:
In your position, I'd be telling men of interest, or even putting it on a profile for dating if I were doing the online thing...that what I want in a partner is someone with whom it can evolve comfortably and organically. One where I will never feel like his dirty secret, and where if one day we both reach a point where it feels comfortable, there is the possibility, the open door, to become more and more a part of one another's lives.

But that more than anything, whatever winds up evolving or not in the relationship and how it is logistically handled...that comfortable communication is critically important. That you can find compromises on how the relationship operates, so long as you can both TALK about it and your partner doesn't make you feel dismissed, shut out, or shut down.

So if talking about possibilities, hopes, dreams, and feelings bothers you (you being new date guy) makes you feel pressured or trapped, then do not apply. Whether we actually DO this or that is a separate matter, but you've got to at least show up for the conversations.
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I need to write this down and, like, practice it in front of the mirror or something.

Because when I first meet someone, I cannot even imagine wanting emotional closeness or entanglement with them. They're just a stranger. I am so naturally suspicious and gun-shy about new people. It takes me forever to like people. But once I do, I don't just like them, I love them.

I look back at the beginning of this blog, and I'd been dating Dag for a year at that point, and I'm still all, hmmm, he's a nice guy, I like hanging out with him, oh shit, I might actually care about him! But that's pretty typical for me. I'm very cautious in relationships, and friendships, too.

So it's just tough for me, when I'm starting something new, to remember that I might feel very strongly for this person someday, even if I don't now.
 
Another thought...

All of this "if/when you date again" talk has made me realize, I am so not ready for that.

I can get excited about going out, meeting people, even first dates or sex, but the idea of getting into another serious relationship... No. Hell no. I get panicky trapped feelings just thinking about it.

And I think that may be a big part of why I'm scared to change anything with Dag. I'm afraid if I go out and date, I'll do the typical me thing, and slide into a relationship before I've given myself time to breathe and think.

I have a hard time keeping things casual, because a guy wanting to escalate things - call me his girlfriend, stop actively seeking new partners, see each other more often - that is so flattering. It makes me feel all special. It's such an ego boost. Even when I'm not sure it's what I really want, I can't say no to the "I just want you all the time" stuff. It's like a drug. So on the one hand, exploring and dating sounds freeing, but on the other... I'm just going to end up in the same place two years from now with a different guy.

I don't trust my own judgement, I guess. I don't trust myself to make a "no exclusivity, no fluid bonding, no long term commitments for X amount of time" boundary and stick to it.

Every time I have been actively dating, I've told myself I wouldn't do those things until I was SURE the guy was right for me long term. Not until I'd gotten a really good sense of his other relationships, expectations, whether we could work as a couple. Because I know those are the things that make me feel "couple-y" and start those bonding hormones. Those are the things that make me lose perspective.

Every time, I've broken that promise to myself, and I have always had the same rationalization: "this guy is a catch! He's cute and smart and funny! If I don't step up and commit, I'll lose my chance and some other girl will snag him!"

Aaaaand then six months or a year later, I'm falling for him at the same time I'm realizing our expectations do not mesh.:cool:
 
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So, I have a question for others who blog here...

How do you maintain "blog boundaries" :confused:

Because I am having that feeling again of needing a break from talking about my life here. And that frustrates me, because I know journaling and venting and getting feedback helps me. Usually. But sometimes it's overwhelming.

I am (obviously) a people pleaser. I want harmony, I want everyone around me to feel happy and appreciated and loved. Including the people who are "around" on this blog. I want to take everyone's advice, follow everyone's suggestions - basically, it's like I'm crowd sourcing my love life. Except... No one else is me. No one else has to live every day with the consequences of my choices. So I really shouldn't be trying to take the average of everyone's advice. I should be listening, processing, and then making decisions for myself.

But I'm having a hard time doing that. I'm having a hard time with the feeling that I will hurt someone's feelings if I say, huh, thank you but what you just wrote does not apply to me. I'm having a hard time with worrying that I will let people down if I don't act on their suggestions.

So, in the ultimate irony, I'm asking for advice on how to *not* take advice :p
 
Well, do you feel like you actually have to report if you don't follow advice? Lots of people comment, but unless you specifically say "I'm going to/not going to do that" then no one actually requires a response. I. E. I'm responding now to your blog, but I don't really *need* or even expect a response. It's just information for you to have in your arsenal that you can use if you wish or not. The benefit of advice from others is that everyone has different experiences and views. Someone else may share something you find relevant and useful, but they also might share something that worked for them but doesn't really fit your circumstances. It's only meant to illustrate another data point, not the one true solution.

If you're struggling you can also just point out when you have information overload and don't want more responses for a while. Or digest responses and advice but decide that you're going to take X amount of time away from the blog to digest and decide on your own course of action until you come back.

No matter what, I think all of us who post on your blog only want you to be happy and do what is right for you, whether or not that means following or not following a piece of advice!
 
What breathemusic said.

I'm only sharing my own perspective on trying to dodge tricky stuff that has plagued me down the line in relationships, by attempting to be proactive up front. I sometimes come off like I know what I'm doing (others tell me this in real life)...but I'm just figuring stuff out like anybody else!

And I guess...trying to connect, in a human-ey sort of a way.

If like one little snip of idea from anything I say resonates, well, file it away. Maybe one day it will help. Discard the stuff that doesn't apply. :)
 
Thank you guys :)

Spork, I'll be honest and say your comments have thrown me for a loop the past couple of days. You absolutely come off as knowing what you're doing, and I beat myself up a little for not being enlightened and evolved enough to love the way you do.

Like when you talk about guys perceiving your love as a trap... I worry that mine IS a trap. My worry isn't emotionally unavailable guys, it's the guys who are available emotionally but not in other ways. Like Dag. I do know he loves me. We talk about our feelings, our deepest fears, our childhoods, our dark sides. He comes to me when he needs love and support. If he were emotionally unavailable, I wouldn't have fallen for him. It took a good year of him being open and honest and telling me every day that he needed me before I started to care.

But that's all I get, the emotions. We're never going to spend thanksgiving together. I'll never meet his mom. And that's NOT OK with me. I want the emotions and the life entanglement to move in tandem. You want us to have incredibly intimate sex? You want us to cry together about your daughters problems? Then I expect you to AT LEAST show up at Christmas. I will probably still grumble that you didn't help with the tree, but seriously, you better make an appearance.


I would much rather a guy be emotionally unavailable (I mean, hell, I can be pretty damn emotionally unavailable) than love me and not be willing to commit a ton of time and energy. If someone can't do the escalator thing, that's ok - but then don't love me, or at least hide it from me, because one without the other explodes my brain.

I just cannot do that love without expectations thing. And I am really, truly, deeply disappointed in myself for that.
 
GirlFromTexlahoma said:
Thank you guys :)

Spork, I'll be honest and say your comments have thrown me for a loop the past couple of days. You absolutely come off as knowing what you're doing, and I beat myself up a little for not being enlightened and evolved enough to love the way you do.

Like when you talk about guys perceiving your love as a trap... I worry that mine IS a trap. My worry isn't emotionally unavailable guys, it's the guys who are available emotionally but not in other ways. Like Dag. I do know he loves me. We talk about our feelings, our deepest fears, our childhoods, our dark sides. He comes to me when he needs love and support. If he were emotionally unavailable, I wouldn't have fallen for him. It took a good year of him being open and honest and telling me every day that he needed me before I started to care.

But that's all I get, the emotions. We're never going to spend thanksgiving together. I'll never meet his mom. And that's NOT OK with me. I want the emotions and the life entanglement to move in tandem. You want us to have incredibly intimate sex? You want us to cry together about your daughters problems? Then I expect you to AT LEAST show up at Christmas. I will probably still grumble that you didn't help with the tree, but seriously, you better make an appearance.


I would much rather a guy be emotionally unavailable (I mean, hell, I can be pretty damn emotionally unavailable) than love me and not be willing to commit a ton of time and energy. If someone can't do the escalator thing, that's ok - but then don't love me, or at least hide it from me, because one without the other explodes my brain.

I just cannot do that love without expectations thing. And I am really, truly, deeply disappointed in myself for that.
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Now don't you let my theories cause you to doubt you own True Voice. See, I say I don't want the entanglement. The reality is, I feel that going for any of that too fast would be a mistake, I just got out of a long crap marriage. I'm scared of getting in too deep and making a mistake that's hard to get out of. So I sit here all, *silly falsetto voice* "My emotions are not a trap!"

And I guess when we're talking two weeks in with a mostly sexual fling, that might be ok. But seven months in with Zen? Yeah, I'm starting to dream entanglement dreams. And while I'm not able to hope, or plan...still I begin to dream. Who's super solo poly now?? lol!

I have no idea what I'm doing. I'm just figuring it out as I go.

The important thing is to figure out what your own truest truths are, the stuff that your heart is made of. And then respect that, in word and thought and deed, in and out of relationships. That's what I think. But it's more of a journey than a destination. I figure I'll stop learning stuff about myself and how I ought to live my life...like...when I'm dead.
 
Sometimes I have trouble wrapping my brain around the details of DADT rules. I mean sure don't go around introducing someone as "This is my extra marital lover Claire" but what is wrong with "Hi Mom, this is my friend Claire". Do all these people not have friends of the opposite sex? I can only guess that it is not just DADT but Don't Even Take A Chance Of Someone Getting An Inkling (DETACOSGAI... Hey, that sounds like it could be the name and personality of an anime character). I am far too bad at remembering to keep things secret for that to work long with me.

Leetah
 
Leetah said:
Sometimes I have trouble wrapping my brain around the details of DADT rules. I mean sure don't go around introducing someone as "This is my extra marital lover Claire" but what is wrong with "Hi Mom, this is my friend Claire". Do all these people not have friends of the opposite sex? I can only guess that it is not just DADT but Don't Even Take A Chance Of Someone Getting An Inkling (DETACOSGAI... Hey, that sounds like it could be the name and personality of an anime character). I am far too bad at remembering to keep things secret for that to work long with me.

Leetah
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Yeah, I don't get it either. I've met plenty of people I'm pretty sure my friends are fucking, but everyone who isn't a spouse or on their way to being one is just "this is my friend so and so".

Spork said:
The important thing is to figure out what your own truest truths are, the stuff that your heart is made of. And then respect that, in word and thought and deed, in and out of relationships. That's what I think. But it's more of a journey than a destination. I figure I'll stop learning stuff about myself and how I ought to live my life...like...when I'm dead.
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Thank you. I feel like I have lost sight of my own truths this year.

The learning is hard. I don't want to be a static person. But I've tried so hard to "grow" and "evolve" and "explore" that I've drifted into territory that is very uncomfortable for me. I miss feeling like myself.

It takes a lot of strength and courage to change and try new things, but it takes just as much (or more) to admit you've made a wrong turn.

**********

So, I'm working on a letter to Dag. I may do some musing about it here, trying to figure out what to say. But I very much do not want advice about what to say or how to say it, because these need to be my words. TIA.
 
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