A Beating?

[MrMatou]

FWIW? I think these things....

Your next behavior could be to dump the cheater completely and move on.

Galagirl

You were so right Galagirl, I should have listened to you. So after the boyfriend leaves I have lunch with the lady, a goodbye lunch. At the end we hugged, peck on the lips and "hasta la vista". It hurt and its taking me some time to process and let go.

So today she calls me out of the blue with a message from boyfriend who is thankfully a long ways away. "I am to hire a bodyguard and up my life insurance" if I ever contact her again. Apparently she told him about our goodbye lunch so that "her being honest would help him trust her more". This guy is a former naval special forces operator. He is RED (Retired, Extremely Dangerous) in her words.

This guy has ABUSER written all over him. But she thinks he will be all right when he isn't under so much stress, or "he loves me so much, he would never hurt me". Or its the PTSD causing his erratic behavior.

I can't help her, she won't listen to me. I don't expect anyone here to offer much help. I just needed a place to vent. And perhaps someone will learn from my experience. This is NOT how you do poly.

 

[kdt26417]

Re:

"'I am to hire a bodyguard and up my life insurance' if I ever contact her again."

Okay that was definitely a threat.

 

[GalaGirl]

she calls me out of the blue with a message from boyfriend...

I hope she wakes up to the fact that he seems to think she is his property. I worry about her safety. She probably could use professional help. I don't see why she is being his "loudspeaker" and transmitting his messages for him at you.

But at this point in time? You have to deal with your own safety and well being. Let that last lunch BE the last time and just keep away from her. Zero contact.

The last thing you need is him showing up with a gun. Or her with more drama.

I can't help her, she won't listen to me.

I am glad you see that. She need professional help if she actually wants to get off this merry-go-round she is on.

I don't expect anyone here to offer much help. I just needed a place to vent. And perhaps someone will learn from my experience. This is NOT how you do poly.

I hope you feel better for the vent. You don't deserve to be cheated on and dragged through their drama. And no. This is NOT how to do poly. You are right about that!

Galagirl

 

[Spork]

Wow!

Retired, Extremely Dangerous...

Just wow. That is my ex all over again. I'm remembering that term.

For what it's worth, my ex "never would have hurt me." My ex loved me beyond all reason, for most of the time we were together. His devotion and adoration was above reproach and beyond question. He was the very picture of loyalty, and often said things like "I'd take a bullet for you."

I used to think, if I left, I'd have nothing to fear for myself but he might shoot another man if he saw me with one.

All of that lasted until April 13th of last year when I spoke the words to him, "I can't do all of this anymore. Like this. I've been waiting for the right time to tell you, when your back wasn't hurting and we could talk, but I've been having feelings towards Josh (our mutual friend.) He knows, but we haven't done anything, I know they're inappropriate. I don't want to pursue anything with him. I just see this as a huge sign of trouble for US. If we're going to fix this, we both have serious work to do, because I can't go on like this anymore."

That night he seemed fine, more or less. He was snuggly when we went to bed. He sat on it a little and the next day, my phone was blowing up with threats and fury. That night when I went home, he menaced me with a loaded gun for...10 hours?...something like that?...while ranting at me.

Love turned to hate the moment I was no longer perceived as HIS.

EDIT: Worth mentioning that our friend wasn't so much the target of the violent behavior, as I was.

In the months that followed as I tried to gently see him into breaking out of codependency and get us both able to live apart, there were numerous subtle and not-so-subtle threats against my life.

So I can say from EXPERIENCE that with this kind of guy...and really, I think the military breaks something inside the minds of some of 'em...you just can't take for granted that they'll always be the guy who would "never do anything to hurt me."

 

[MrMatou]

Wow!

Retired, Extremely Dangerous...

Just wow. That is my ex all over again. I'm remembering that term.

For what it's worth, my ex "never would have hurt me." My ex loved me beyond all reason, for most of the time we were together. His devotion and adoration was above reproach and beyond question. He was the very picture of loyalty, and often said things like "I'd take a bullet for you."

Thanks Spork for confirming my fears. Now I know I am not over estimating the danger she is in. I hate being helpless to convince her of the peril. I strongly suggested she talk to someone like a best friend, her sons, a therapist, someone. Its the best I can do.

If he ever comes back, I'll have to watch my back constantly. You can't blame the military completely. My father was a WWII combat vet and his friends were. I know they experienced terrible things during their service. They all turned out to be fine upstanding men.

 

[BlueShoes]

My interpretation is that your girlfriend's other boyfriend violated her boundaries (broke into her FB) to threaten both of you, and that your GF is in danger. You may be as well. I'm not interested in explaining or excusing that behavior.

There is a tbreat. You need to take it seriously. Do not contact this guy again, in any way. Ask your girlfriend privately if she's safe. Report the threatening message to FB.

In future you need better inquiries about partner's other relationships.

I'm going to recommend some reading: Why Does He Do That? By Lundy Bancroft. And possibly The Gift of Fear by Gabon DE Becker.

 

[InfinitePossibility]

This sounds absolutely terrifying. I hope you do manage to cut off all contact with this woman. It seems to me that however much she may want some comfort and support to drag somebody else into this risky situation isn't kind.

How is your partner feeling about this sort of bad feeling and threatening behaviour being so close to her life? I wouldn't be happy at all to be in her shoes - especially as she didn't seem all that happy about the idea of poly in the first place.

IP

 

[MrFarFromRight]

Most of what I thought of writing has already been said by others, especially Gala Girl. On reading your first post, I wouldn't have advised you to break off all contact with this woman but subsequent posts made me change my mind. Avoid her for the rest of her work assignment in your area. It may be a "rural, small town, redneck hell hole [where] the dating pool is fractions of an inch deep", but dating isn't worth getting killed over.

I would have advised you to inform her of his violation of her facebook account and of his threat to you, but you've already done this.

The only aspect that I can think of that hasn' t been commented on: It is a sad fact that some women are brainwashed into feeling "cherished" by boyfriends who exhibit this kind of violent machoism. And others (or the same ones) who are proud of being capable of generating such "strong feelings". This is violence by remote control. "I didn't pull the trigger, Officer: I'm not guilty..." The fact that she told him about your "goodbye lunch" might mean that she felt that"her being honest would help him trust her more". It might mean that she wanted more demonstrations of his rooster behaviour. And the ultimate proof of that would be if he sent you to the hospital... or the cemetery.

Don't forget that she KNOWS that he's RED. She's chosen to have a relationship with an extremely dangerous individual.

Walk away.

And make sure that it's poly and not cheating next time!

 

[MrMatou]

She probably could use professional help. I don't see why she is being his "loudspeaker" and transmitting his messages for him at you.
Galagirl

That is what really gets to me. How she can let this guy use her to send a threatening message to someone who has done nothing but give her kindness and caring. How fucking evil is that? It blows my mind. I thought she was a good person. Wow, was I wrong.

I'm going to recommend some reading: Why Does He Do That? By Lundy Bancroft. And possibly The Gift of Fear by Gabon DE Becker.

Thanks for the recommendation. I'll look into them.

How is your partner feeling about this sort of bad feeling and threatening behaviour being so close to her life? IP

She doesn't feel great about it for sure. We talked about it a lot last night. One of her comments was "well you were looking for excitement". Yeah, but not life threatening excitement. All in all we are good. Overall its been good for us. We are now more open and communicating better.

The only aspect that I can think of that hasn' t been commented on: It is a sad fact that some women are brainwashed into feeling "cherished" by boyfriends who exhibit this kind of violent macho-ism. And others (or the same ones) who are proud of being capable of generating such "strong feelings". This is violence by remote control. "I didn't pull the trigger, Officer: I'm not guilty..." The fact that she told him about your "goodbye lunch" might mean that she felt that"her being honest would help him trust her more". It might mean that she wanted more demonstrations of his rooster behavior. And the ultimate proof of that would be if he sent you to the hospital... or the cemetery.

She has expressed exactly that idea. She was sure he would "walk away" if he ever caught her cheating on him. He didn't, so she says "I had no idea his feelings for me were that deep". Fool, its not feelings for her or love, its possessiveness. And that is dangerous. For a 52 year old professional woman, with two marriages under her belt, I would expect a little more sense. It feels like junior high mentality.

Thanks everyone for chimming in. Its been good to vent and share this experience. This forum is awesome like the people who contribute to it.

 

[Spork]

FWIW, not so much saying "vets are broken and dangerous and to be avoided" as I am saying that it's a known fact that military and vets are at higher risk of mental health issues, suicide, etc. And while there ARE resources to help them...too often those resources seem to fall short, or are under-utilized.

I think that the military desensitizes men to violence and violent concepts and attitudes. Things that would shock some people, do not shock them. It's necessary to the job in many cases. But when coupled with other personality disorders, you get a dangerous time bomb.

So some vets are going to be honorable and upstanding citizens. Some will commit suicide. Some will be addicted to opiates, and/or wind up on the street corner. And some will become terrifying abusers. The odds of bad mental health outcomes are higher than the general population, as is to be expected with the rigors of the job.

But you've got more of a problem than just that guy. Because I sense that she's got abandonment issues to the point of "testing" the investment of her partners with an expectation that they'll leave her, and it's just possible that you were not much more than a test of whether Mr. RED was "the real thing" or not. I would not appreciate being put in that position, at all. Either that or she was doing that thing of simultaneously chanting the refrain of:
"He's a good man, he's a good man, he's a good man"
While her inner voice was whimpering and crying out:
"Help, he's dangerous and I'm scared and I need a hero to save me from him!"

Either way, you did not sign on for this.

Frankly in the situation I was in, I was surprised that the people I found after I broke up with my ex, wanted anything to do with me. I was pretty upfront about it though. I was hauling the baggage of:
Psychotic and dangerous ex
2 teenage sons
Many prior sex partners (matters to some people)
Uncertain about my future commitment levels & relationship goals
Financial difficulty & marital debt

I used to say, "I wouldn't date me." I'm thankful though, that my loves took the chance on me. And I did my best to buffer the situation and keep my ex from being their problem, although I certainly vented to them a lot.

 

[MrMatou]

Thanks everyone for letting me process on here. I feel like I am surrounded by a group of friends, even though ya'll are strangers.

What is bugging me so much is how hard it is to let this woman go. For purposes of discussion, I'll call her "Gone Girl". What started out as a flirtation and then hookup, then FWB, then it was over. All in a few weeks. But even though its been over 2 months I still am trying to figure out why its affected me so much. And continues too.

I think she is really turned on by dominance. Which is fine, I have no problem with that. By default, I am a very gentle, caring, loving person. But I did notice she really responded sexually and emotionally when I was a bit aggressive and dominant.

But I think this need for dominance becomes pathological when she finds that need satisfied in an abusive, manipulative, controlling partner. And her relationship with him is toxic. She thinks his behavior doesn't affect her. But the fact she let him use her to deliver a threat of physical violence to someone she called a friend and who only showed her support, kindness and caring. That tells me its causing her to do evil things.

Does this make sense to you women? Do ya'll want a man to dominate you? Just in bed or otherwise? This confuses me a lot!

 

[Spork]

Thanks everyone for letting me process on here. I feel like I am surrounded by a group of friends, even though ya'll are strangers.

What is bugging me so much is how hard it is to let this woman go. For purposes of discussion, I'll call her "Gone Girl". What started out as a flirtation and then hookup, then FWB, then it was over. All in a few weeks. But even though its been over 2 months I still am trying to figure out why its affected me so much. And continues too.

I think she is really turned on by dominance. Which is fine, I have no problem with that. By default, I am a very gentle, caring, loving person. But I did notice she really responded sexually and emotionally when I was a bit aggressive and dominant.

But I think this need for dominance becomes pathological when she finds that need satisfied in an abusive, manipulative, controlling partner. And her relationship with him is toxic. She thinks his behavior doesn't affect her. But the fact she let him use her to deliver a threat of physical violence to someone she called a friend and who only showed her support, kindness and caring. That tells me its causing her to do evil things.

Does this make sense to you women? Do ya'll want a man to dominate you? Just in bed or otherwise? This confuses me a lot!

I'll point right now to a big ERROR in this post, please file this in your brain:

Do not ask what women want or like.

We are a whole bunch of individuals, like billions of us, and a sampling of us cannot tell you what "women" want or like.

Let me ask you:
Do men like football?
Do men like prostate stimulation?
Are men bald?

Silly, right? OK. Now that this is safely out of the way...

Yes, SOME women do like Dominant men or to be Dominated in some fashion. Whether this makes A WOMAN vulnerable to abuse or not, depends a great deal on things like maturity, sanity, and self-awareness on her part.

A self aware woman who has learned what she likes and why, can get into a safe, sane, consensual relationship with a man who might go so far as to:

-set her on fire
-zap her with electricity
-whip/cane/paddle/spank her
-put needles into her or cut her
-tie her up, control her pleasure, or use her for his
-exhibit her or share her, humiliate or objectify her
-put a collar on her and call her his slave
-tell her what to do

And while that stuff sounds CRAZY it's not abuse. You know the difference? INFORMED CONSENT. To every single piece of it. The same as there is a huge difference between rape and sex. I'm friends with about 100 people who do all or some of the above things, and they are the sanest and safest folks I know, because they are self aware, they have done their research, they are part of a supportive community for safely exploring these desires.

But if you get on the website for all of this, fetlife.com (which sadly hasn't been accepting new registrations due to technical issues right now)...you will ALSO see a bunch of fringe players who are NOT part of a community, have NOT done their homework, and think that because they saw it on internet porn, they should be able to do it at home no problem! Those people are asking for trouble.

So a girl who wants to be Dominated, but doesn't know "how it's done" is vulnerable to be abused. A man who wants to Dominate, but either doesn't know or doesn't care "how it's done" is a potential predator.

But if you flip the genders, and even the roles, the reverse can be true as well. There are women who prefer to Dominate, though statistically I think they are less common, there are many men who want to submit, and either role can be predatory and abusive. I know several "submissives" who run a game of hooking onto a "Dominant" man, and moving into his home and robbing him blind over time, taking advantage, and ruining his life. We all have to be careful. And unfortunately...while I appreciate that you care about this woman and you want to save her, if she doesn't want to be saved I'd suggest that you STAY AWAY. Some people are just very determined to make poor life choices and be involved with toxic partners.

And that has nothing, really, at the end of the day, to do with BDSM, Domination, or "what women like."

 

[InfinitePossibility]

I so much agree with what Spork has written. You can't ask what women like - we don't all like the same things.

What is clear is that you feel that this woman is making poor choices, not treating you like a friend and you can't understand why she would do that. These are all legitimate ways to feel. But - at the end of the day, it is her choice to stay with her partner. You don't have to like it but you can't really do anything about it other than distance yourself from her.

IP

 

[MrMatou]

I so much agree with what Spork has written. You can't ask what women like - we don't all like the same things.

What is clear is that you feel that this woman is making poor choices, not treating you like a friend and you can't understand why she would do that. These are all legitimate ways to feel. But - at the end of the day, it is her choice to stay with her partner. You don't have to like it but you can't really do anything about it other than distance yourself from her.

IP

Thanks Spork and IP. I do understand its impossible to ask "what women want" (title of a movie BTW). Maybe my style was ultimately incompatible with her need for dominance. However, it did bring out a side of me I didn't know existed, and I did enjoy being a bit dominant. It was very consensual, once she let me know that's what she wanted.

Yes, its hard to watch someone you cared about making poor choices and I know I am powerless to do anything about it. Her safety really concerns me. But "Oh Well". I have distanced myself from her completely. But I am trying to process why this whole affair has affected me so much. At 59, I thought I was over feeling like a high school kid.

Spork, even though I am not in the BDSM scene, I understand it and you are right, its about consent. I totally get that. More power to those folks who are so in touch with themselves. Wish I had more opportunity to explore it here in rural, redneck hell hole.

I just want to have a fun, meaningful relationship with a SANE woman around my age. Of course, someone other than my life partner, who is wonderful in her own way. Sigh...

 

[InfinitePossibility]

Do you think that maybe it has given you a glimpse into a life you might like to have led? A poly life? I don't know that people ever get over wanting other people to be close to them.

 

[Spork]

Thanks Spork and IP. I do understand its impossible to ask "what women want" (title of a movie BTW). Maybe my style was ultimately incompatible with her need for dominance. However, it did bring out a side of me I didn't know existed, and I did enjoy being a bit dominant. It was very consensual, once she let me know that's what she wanted.

Yes, its hard to watch someone you cared about making poor choices and I know I am powerless to do anything about it. Her safety really concerns me. But "Oh Well". I have distanced myself from her completely. But I am trying to process why this whole affair has affected me so much. At 59, I thought I was over feeling like a high school kid.

Spork, even though I am not in the BDSM scene, I understand it and you are right, its about consent. I totally get that. More power to those folks who are so in touch with themselves. Wish I had more opportunity to explore it here in rural, redneck hell hole.

I just want to have a fun, meaningful relationship with a SANE woman around my age. Of course, someone other than my life partner, who is wonderful in her own way. Sigh...

A rural, redneck hell hole in NE Oregon? At least it's got to be pretty, right?

I'll never in my life forget driving down out of the mountains near Pendleton in December of 2007, going from cruddy black and snow-white stark and color starved mountain, down as the sun was setting over all of that farmland and it looked like a patchwork blanket of bright silk...it was easily one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen.

But to the point though, I don't think you're ever too old to feel bubbly in love. It's long been a point of aggravation to me that many take a dismissive tone to that feeling, that it isn't "true love" and will inevitably fade. I know people who have been together for years and still feel that way, and I've had people I haven't seen in decades for whom I still feel pangs of it, remembering them. It's real alright. As real as any feeling in the world. And I don't think that there is anything wrong with giving it its due honor...but we still have to be careful who we allow to be close of course.

Is relocation an option for you? Have you considered it? Sometimes as beautiful as the scenery is, if the environment isn't giving you good human connection, it's just not worth staying in.

 

[MrMatou]

A rural, redneck hell hole in NE Oregon? At least it's got to be pretty, right?

I'll never in my life forget driving down out of the mountains near Pendleton in December of 2007, going from cruddy black and snow-white stark and color starved mountain, down as the sun was setting over all of that farmland and it looked like a patchwork blanket of bright silk...it was easily one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen.

Is relocation an option for you? Have you considered it? Sometimes as beautiful as the scenery is, if the environment isn't giving you good human connection, it's just not worth staying in.

Yes Spork, it is very pretty. Much like Colorado. Descending down Cabbage Hill and seeing the Columbia Basin spread out before you is an awesome sight.

Unfortunately relocating is not an option at this point in my life. Life partner and I have a dream home here we spent 5+ years building. Finding like minded people here is so difficult. You have to remain closeted about so much in a small town. Perhaps the planets will align someday and I will find what I am looking for here. Boise is too far away, 2 hours and a LOT of gas.

Thanks for your replies, I really appreciate them.

 

[BlueShoes]

But I think this need for dominance becomes pathological when she finds that need satisfied in an abusive, manipulative, controlling partner. And her relationship with him is toxic. She thinks his behavior doesn't affect her. But the fact she let him use her to deliver a threat of physical violence to someone she called a friend and who only showed her support, kindness and caring. That tells me its causing her to do evil things.

I don't think you have a great understanding of abusive relationship dynamics.

No relationship starts out as toxic, and abusers' initial demands for control can be (either or both) subtle or apparently justified. Persistent relationship abuse comes in cycles that include a honeymoon phase, where abusers relax their control so that it will have more impact when it's slammed in again later.

You do not know what pressures she was responding to when she passed on the threat. It may have been her only option for preserving her own sanity and safety at that time. That doesn't mean it's a good situation for you to stay in.

The desire for dominance (in bed or elsewhere) is not the part that becomes pathological, it's the abuser's desire - and increasing ability - to control that pushes things off the rails.

 

[MrMatou]

Do you think that maybe it has given you a glimpse into a life you might like to have led? A poly life? I don't know that people ever get over wanting other people to be close to them.

I have known I was poly or could be for most of my adult life. Yes, its a life I could have led in perhaps some other location. I crave the connection and intimacy of more than one relationship. The time between marriages when I had a close girlfriend and a LDR at the same time was one of the best times in my life. Each woman was very different, I felt my emotional, sexual and intellectual life was so rich then.

 

[MrMatou]

I don't think you have a great understanding of abusive relationship dynamics.

The desire for dominance (in bed or elsewhere) is not the part that becomes pathological, it's the abuser's desire - and increasing ability - to control that pushes things off the rails.

I confess to not being an expert at abusive relationship dynamics. I have seen enough though. Oh sure there was a honeymoon period. And also the desire to control through threats of suicide, the physical abuse, then apologizing, then doing it again. Gaining control of her money, arranging her life so she can't leave him. She cheated on him, but he forgives her instead of walking away. Turns his anger toward others (me) so he won't have to deal with his anger toward her and lose possession of her. Constant contact and losing his shit when she doesn't respond immediately. On and on. Its off the rails in my opinion and observation. Sickening.