This May Be a Stupid Question...

[KC43]

...and this might not be the right section of the forum on which to post it, but it didn't seem to fit anywhere else.

Some of you know me relatively well, so you know social skills are far from my strong point. Recently, I've discovered just how not-strong they are... I've been attending a weekly play party at a club. A club at which, in theory, I'm supposed to be meeting (and playing with, obviously) new people.

In reality... I've had conversations with people who have struck up conversations with me, and I've played with people who have initiated or asked me. Otherwise I just sit awkwardly in a corner.

So the stupid question part: How do you start a conversation with someone you've just met? Not even necessarily at a play party, since I do realize starting a conversation after introductions at those isn't much different from in the rest of life. But once you get past "Hi, I'm KC, nice to meet you"...where do you go from there?

The other question: At a play party, how do you ask a prospective partner to play? (Clarification if necessary: while the venue has a dungeon, it's primarily geared for swingers, so that type of "play".)

Both of these are serious, legitimate questions. I have never been good at initiating conversations, and as far as initiating sex... the only time I've EVER done so with a new partner was the guy I briefly dated last fall, and that only happened because he'd made his interest known, he just was more awkward than me about acting on it. Other than that, I still have trouble asking Hubby or my boyfriend for sex, let alone some guy I met half an hour ago.

The logical response is probably "Don't go to that type of party, then"... But there are some strong personal reasons I've chosen to go, and until I've fulfilled those reasons, I'm stubborn enough to try to figure this out. Other than last night, I have had conversations and sex there, but only at someone else's initiation, not my own. Last night sucked ass, and not in a fun way, because there were many, many people there I'd not met previously, and when I approached people to try to introduce myself, at least, they walked away. Which I'm sure was partly because I *looked* like I felt awkward as hell, so I want to try to prevent that from happening again.

 

[Ravenscroft]

One gambit is to ask someone a question that they can probably answer. Nothing so obvious as "do you come here often?" (or "what's your sign?" ), but about technique, equipment, scene setting -- lots of possibilities.

It doesn't need to be particularly deep or detailed, but it's a few steps above "hello."

BDSM flirtation is often... odd (& funny). Once, I was rigging ties (rings on ropes) & a beautiful Domme I barely knew was surprised at how easy I made it look & asked me to show her more slowly how I did it. Well, heck yes. That led to a recurring two-year relationship.

As for asking for a scene... well, nothing ventured, nothing gained. It's easier for a sub to make a (respectful) request so as to incur less problems with top/bottom "ownership" protocols.

My background is less whips-&-chains than yoga & fakir self-control practices, & I like doing demonstrations. (Maybe I'll talk about fun with clothespins sometime...) It goes a lot faster with a little help, & I'd often start laying out hardware, then ask someone who looked curious to assist me. Once I got started, I'd sometimes pause to mention some bit of how-&-why or address questions (spoken or silent). Even such brief conversation, done with warmth, becomes special for taking place during something so quasi-sexually intimate. Later, it's just a matter of reintroducing yourself, & even "hello" has new depth.

 

[KC43]

Thanks. Those are good bits of advice for when I'm in the dungeon part of the club. *Makes mental notes*. As I said, it isn't a BDSM play club, more of a swingers' club, but there is BDSM-ish stuff happening there sometimes.

 

[kdt26417]

Hi KC43,

My initial thought on initiating a conversation is to ask the other person where they're from and what they do. Kind of go from there.

Not sure how to ask someone if they want to play ... beyond the obvious, "Hey, wanna play?" I don't have experience in that area.

As for how to not feel awkward, I think that's a harder problem to solve. It takes practice and time. You have to get used to approaching people, and gain confidence that you can start a conversation with them. It's going to feel awkward at first, that's just the nature of the beast. But FWIW, I am of the opinion that if someone walks away from you, that is their failure, not yours.

Those are my initial thoughts anyway.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[IndieSolo]

I think it's a great question, not stupid at all. I sometimes have a hard time making small talk or starting a convo in social settings. And other times, it's super easy. Don't forget that other people may be feeling awkward, too. I will usually comment on an observation I'm making at that moment and strike up a convo that way. Or I'd ask them a question about themselves (their jewelry, a tattoo, how they heard of the event, etc.) and get them talking.

However, my initial thought in this topic when I read it was to ask if you are attending these events with your bf, who is your Dom (you are still seeing him, correct?). Not that I'm well-versed in power exchange relationships or anything, but isn't this something for which you would ask for his guidance, since he is your Dom? Could you ask him to give you instructions or commands to follow while there? If your Dom is encouraging you to go to play parties and situations like this, he shouldn't drop the ball and leave you dangling out there, not knowing what to do - at least, that would be my assumption about a D/s relationship. I may be wrong, of course.

 

[SchrodingersCat]

I highly recommend reading the book "How to Win Friends and Influence People."

It's not as manipulative as the title would lead you to believe. It's really just about how to talk to people and develop relationships.

One thing that always stuck with me from that book is that people love to talk about themselves. You can get people to think you're an excellent conversationalist just by learning how to get people talking about themselves. They won't even realize you're not talking.

Body language is super important too. If you look closed off an unapproachable, then people will think you're a jerk. I don't know why people default to that instead of assuming you're shy, but that seems to be the way of it. So physically opening up, e.g. uncross your arms and legs, sit or stand straight and tall, make eye contact...

And the old cliche is a cliche for a reason: fake it till you make it. For practice, pick someone in the room whom you don't think you'd be interested in, and just giv'er. If you have nothing to lose, it will take a lot of the pressure and help you relax. The more you practice at it, the easier it becomes.

I would also find places to practice that are a bit more organized, like a meet-up group for common interests. That way everyone there is already interested in something and you can talk about that. Talking to people is talking to people, so once you get comfortable with it in one situation, it gets easier in all the others.

 

[Magdlyn]

Not sure why you're at a sex club... I guess it was your boyfriend's idea?

Personally, when Punk and I were discussing going to a "swinger type" sex club, I got super triggered. And I am a fairly outgoing confident person in social situations.

Recently Pixi and I went to a party at a friend's house. Lots of his friends were unknown to me. It was just a normal vanilla type party. What I did was, hang out with Pixi, get some food, smile at every stranger, attempt to converse with our friend/host.

It took a good hour and a half for the ice to break, and for me/us to end up in a group sitting around chatting. A couple of the people in the group were storyteller types, so I listened to them, and occasionally interjected a comment when I had something to say along the lines of their topics.

This sex club I was slightly considering going to sounded like your typical couple-centric, heterosexual, women as bait club. I read on their website that the women often danced on the dance floor, with other women or with their male date, and started taking off their clothes there to "get the men going." It all just sounded gross to me.

If you're sitting in a corner by yourself while your boyfriend is off socialising with every Tom, Dick and Jane that catches his fancy-- why? As your date, your bf and your Dom, and especially if he is familiar with the club and knows the regulars, I would think he has a social responsibility to introduce you to others, mentioning something he thinks you would have in common with this or that person. I don't think it's quite mannerly to just plunk you down in a group of strangers and abandon you. If that is what he is doing, it's kind of like throwing a 3 year old in a pool to "teach them to swim." Sure, the kid might be able to struggle over to the edge of the pool and not drown, if she is strong and reasonably athletic. But if she is going down for the third time, the parent should jump in and rescue her!

Better yet, the parent should be in the pool with the kid, teaching her the basic strokes and letting the kid swim short distances while always being within easy reach!

I find no appeal in fucking strangers I've spoken to for a mere 10-30 minutes. Do you find that appealing? Or are you just going through the motions to please your boyfriend?

 

[opalescent]

I've never been able to go up to a stranger and ask if they want to have sex with me. I don't have problems asking if I am in some sort of a relationship with them. So I'm no help on that part.

I actually find it easier to ask people to play when I top than when I bottom. People sometimes seek me out for what I do, which is a nice ego boost. When I top, I have a beginning kind of built in 'Hi, I'm opalescent and I do knife play!' or something along those lines. As we chat, if they seem interested, I offer to top them. Sometimes the answer is a 'no, thank you', sometimes it's 'maybe later' and sometimes it's 'yes, please'! Whatever the answer, I always stay gracious. I never take a no (or even a yes) personally. Maybe knives scare the crap out of them, maybe they only play with cis men, maybe they have agreements with partners to only play together, maybe their medication ran out so they are unusually grumpy, or maybe they just don't feel like playing. Whatever - a rejection is not actually about me. It's about what is going on with them internally and how what I offer as a top interacts with that.

However, while I can believe that last line when I top, I have a very hard time fully believing it as a bottom. It feels so much more personal to be rejected as a play partner while bottoming. It feels more like a rejection of me, instead of a rejection of my skills. So, while I will often ask people if they want to play with me in person when I top, I rarely do so when I want to bottom. (Part of that is I need a connection to do certain activities when I bottom.) However, I will ask people who seem interesting to top me online (usually on Fetlife). Sometimes I get totally ignored, other times a polite 'no, thanks', but sometimes people agree. Asking people online to bottom for them is less scary for some reason than asking in person.

So I guess my suggestions boil down to: 1) rejection is not about you - it's about whatever is going on with the person and the interaction with what you offer but it's not you personally (although it certainly feels like that at times!) and 2) if possible, message people before the event you find interesting or attractive and set something up (maybe not the whole enchilada but a massage or something light and introductory?) and 3) focus on something the other person does that you would like experience and ask about that (this obviously works better in a kink environment than a swingers environment).

 

[Spork]

I highly recommend reading the book "How to Win Friends and Influence People."

It's not as manipulative as the title would lead you to believe. It's really just about how to talk to people and develop relationships.

One thing that always stuck with me from that book is that people love to talk about themselves. You can get people to think you're an excellent conversationalist just by learning how to get people talking about themselves. They won't even realize you're not talking.

Body language is super important too. If you look closed off an unapproachable, then people will think you're a jerk. I don't know why people default to that instead of assuming you're shy, but that seems to be the way of it. So physically opening up, e.g. uncross your arms and legs, sit or stand straight and tall, make eye contact...

And the old cliche is a cliche for a reason: fake it till you make it. For practice, pick someone in the room whom you don't think you'd be interested in, and just giv'er. If you have nothing to lose, it will take a lot of the pressure and help you relax. The more you practice at it, the easier it becomes.

I would also find places to practice that are a bit more organized, like a meet-up group for common interests. That way everyone there is already interested in something and you can talk about that. Talking to people is talking to people, so once you get comfortable with it in one situation, it gets easier in all the others.

The bold bit, I don't advise and/or cannot imagine doing, as a woman.

Practicing eye contact, open body language, and conversation with a man you're not interested in, he is likely to "get the wrong idea" and pursue, and sometimes not want to take a subsequent no for an answer, because he feels once you catch his attention, he's entitled to the follow through. As a woman, I'm careful about messages where men are involved.

At a sex club, I would be 100 times more so.

I'd start conversations with other shy women maybe.

Actually, thinking about it, I'm only guarded like that when I'm feeling awkward, shy, or uncertain. Vulnerable. When I'm socially "on" I chat up anyone...but I'm quick to disengage if I get a sniff of "Cool, you talked to me, we're gonna have sex right??" But that's a whole other skill, disengagement and dodging unwelcome attention gracefully.

.............................

As to how to start conversation...

It starts with eye contact. Read the room. If you see someone interesting, let your gaze linger and watch what their eyes do. If you lock eyes for even a moment, do they do that small smile? Nod? Awkward look away or turn away? What's the message?

If you get "green light" at the eye contact level, move in for conversation. Can be about them, or about you. I can start a conversation with anyone who is willing to talk.

"I am so tired today. I did <xyz> yesterday, it was fun but I was up late..."
"Do you watch <show>?" or "Have you seen <movie> yet? Are you planning to? / What did you think?" Or the best fall back, look for anything to comment or compliment them on. Clothing, jewelry, tattoos, hairstyle, whatever.

Or if you want to lure them to initiate, make a point of wearing a conversation piece. I also do that, often. When I went to Thunder in the Mountains (BDSM convention) during one of the play parties I walked around mostly naked, but wore a cool latex black dragon necklace. I got so many comments on it, and it made others able to walk up and initiate convo with a naked woman, which isn't easy for everyone! Be approachable.

As for asking for play...granted I have never done the swinger thing, it's not my thing so don't know how I'd approach that for sure...but leading up to sex with a potential, or expressing interest in the possibility, is a process.

If you've done the intro and you've talked a few minutes, I'd ask things like if it's their first time there, if they are there with anyone or solo, relate back your own story on those kinds of questions, and proceed based on what you learn.

Have you been here before?

No, you?

Yeah, I've been a few times. Really love the space, and the people are awesome. I come here with my partner, Bob, he's in there having a good time. **smile** Are you here with someone?

Yeah, my girlfriend is here with me, she's in the ladies' room. (They will typically elaborate on some basic relationship facts. Prompt if needed.)

Ah, so are you both interested in playing tonight? **smile** Have anything particular in mind? (Assuming he has not just volunteered this info.)

Go on to describe what you're into, or tell anecdote of what you've enjoyed in the past...

The important thing is sending and receiving good nonverbals the whole time...

 

[Magdlyn]

Spork, it's so funny how different people can be. Your whole post made me shudder and feel so uncomfortable!

 

[Spork]

Spork, it's so funny how different people can be. Your whole post made me shudder and feel so uncomfortable!

Really??

That's interesting. Those kinds of things tend to work really well for me in just making casual talkies with people. Ah...but... If someone had a case of the shudder and uncomfortable, I would see that and not engage/persist.

I know tons of introverts. Lots and lots of them in the kink scene, just like there are lots and lots of nerds/geeks/intellectuals (who are damn sexy, but half the time don't know it!) in my local kink community. I've had to carefully learn to see the signs of an introvert who really would like to be left alone, or who wants calm and quiet energy, not smiley, beaming, loud and positive energy.

Being quiet and NOT making chatter with other people, actually makes me uncomfortable. To the point that I will leave, if I don't get the sense that anyone wants to talk to me. I feel like I don't belong if I can't engage anybody in conversation, shut out. It doesn't happen often, but occasionally, it does. But if anything, I'm happier talking to a new friend, that I just met, than someone I know well. The new person hasn't heard all of my stories, and I have not heard theirs.

Mags, what made you uncomfortable, the idea of trying to do that conversation, or the idea of someone approaching you and making that kind of conversation? I has a curious.

 

[KC43]

There are a lot of great suggestions in this thread! I agree with Spork, by the way, about *not* choosing someone I'm not interested in to start a conversation with. Or at least not a guy I'm not interested in. I'm not interested in any women, so that works. LOL. (It's easier for me to talk to other women, though, *because* I'm not interested.)

I wanted to address a couple of specific things...

However, my initial thought in this topic when I read it was to ask if you are attending these events with your bf, who is your Dom (you are still seeing him, correct?). Not that I'm well-versed in power exchange relationships or anything, but isn't this something for which you would ask for his guidance, since he is your Dom? Could you ask him to give you instructions or commands to follow while there? If your Dom is encouraging you to go to play parties and situations like this, he shouldn't drop the ball and leave you dangling out there, not knowing what to do - at least, that would be my assumption about a D/s relationship. I may be wrong, of course.

You're right about D/s dynamics. But as I said, this isn't a BDSM club, it's a swingers club that has a basement with some BDSM equipment in it. And I'm there by myself. I'm not at all comfortable with the idea of my boyfriend or Hubby going with me, though that may change at some point in the future. Right now, I think I would be even more inhibited if they were there than without them.

That said, my boyfriend is helping me work on some "small talk" skills so I can at least manage to begin a conversation.

Not sure why you're at a sex club... I guess it was your boyfriend's idea? ...

If you're sitting in a corner by yourself while your boyfriend is off socialising with every Tom, Dick and Jane that catches his fancy-- why? As your date, your bf and your Dom, and especially if he is familiar with the club and knows the regulars, I would think he has a social responsibility to introduce you to others, mentioning something he thinks you would have in common with this or that person. I don't think it's quite mannerly to just plunk you down in a group of strangers and abandon you. If that is what he is doing, it's kind of like throwing a 3 year old in a pool to "teach them to swim." Sure, the kid might be able to struggle over to the edge of the pool and not drown, if she is strong and reasonably athletic. But if she is going down for the third time, the parent should jump in and rescue her!

Better yet, the parent should be in the pool with the kid, teaching her the basic strokes and letting the kid swim short distances while always being within easy reach!

I find no appeal in fucking strangers I've spoken to for a mere 10-30 minutes. Do you find that appealing? Or are you just going through the motions to please your boyfriend?

I can see I have a lot to clarify...

First, Mags, I changed the name you used in my quotes of your post; after the blog fiasco, I was asked by him and the others involved not to use even false names for them on here, but to only refer to him as "my boyfriend" and not refer to the others at all. No harm no foul, since I hadn't mentioned that before, but just for future reference.

Second... the club is entirely my thing, and going was entirely my idea. I saw a posting about it on another site and decided to go, and I go by myself. Casual sex does hold some appeal for me; it's less complicated and emotional-baggagey than relationship sex. Honestly, though, I don't "play" much there, because my definition of casual isn't the same as some people's. I either "click" with someone when I meet them or I don't; if I don't, that's the end of it. If I do, things might go further, or they might not. Sometimes I don't have sex there at all; it's just fun to be out of the house and around open-minded people. Going to the club is about me exploring and experimenting, and honestly, I'm way too oppositional and stubborn to have done this if my boyfriend or Hubby had suggested it. I told them I wanted to go; they gave me their blessings and their warnings about "playing safe." So when I go, I'm there solo; I check in with each of them by text throughout the night so they know I'm okay, but that's the closest they come to being there. Neither of them goes to any type of "play" club, whether sex or BDSM.

(I thought the way I worded my OP made it clear enough that I'm at the club by myself, but evidently not... I hope it's clearer for everyone now.)

 

[Magdlyn]

As to how to start conversation...

It starts with eye contact. Read the room. If you see someone interesting, let your gaze linger and watch what their eyes do. If you lock eyes for even a moment, do they do that small smile? Nod? Awkward look away or turn away? What's the message?

If you get "green light" at the eye contact level, move in for conversation...

"I am so tired today. I did <xyz> yesterday, it was fun but I was up late..."
"Do you watch <show>?" or "Have you seen <movie> yet? Are you planning to? / What did you think?" Or the best fall back, look for anything to comment or compliment them on. Clothing, jewelry, tattoos, hairstyle, whatever.

I'm OK with all these basics. I don't mind small talk with strangers at parties. This would be an example of that, so far.

Or if you want to lure them to initiate, make a point of wearing a conversation piece. I also do that, often. When I went to Thunder in the Mountains (BDSM convention) during one of the play parties I walked around mostly naked, but wore a cool latex black dragon necklace. I got so many comments on it, and it made others able to walk up and initiate convo with a naked woman, which isn't easy for everyone! Be approachable.

This, though. It makes me uncomfortable. Like I am bait (as you did use the word lure), or a hooker on a street corner, just "looking for one thing." (I just don't like casual sex with strangers.) The message to me, from what you said, is: "Look at my body, everyone! See how fuckable I am, everyone! Come and get me, someone or someones, I am cute, I have vagina and tits and ass!"

This is not slut shaming YOU. You are doing you and I know you enjoy the hell out of it. Go you! It's just not for me; I just need more prior connection. I am sure it's great advice for KC.

I've been to a naturist camp once where I walked around in nothing but sandals all day, and I felt great. But I wasn't baiting or luring anyone, not even my bf. I already knew he was attracted to me, my body, my mind and my soul. I wasn't "selling" myself to anyone. I was just chillin.'

As for asking for play...granted I have never done the swinger thing, it's not my thing so don't know how I'd approach that for sure...but leading up to sex with a potential, or expressing interest in the possibility, is a process.

If you've done the intro and you've talked a few minutes, I'd ask things like if it's their first time there, if they are there with anyone or solo, relate back your own story on those kinds of questions, and proceed based on what you learn.

Have you been here before?

No, you?

Yeah, I've been a few times. Really love the space, and the people are awesome.

This part sounds like the beginnings of typical chat you'd have in a bar or at a party or wedding or event of some kind, with someone you'd like to get with... Fuck that night, maybe, or exchange numbers for a future proper date with clothes on (which would be my preference). A conversation of some length. 2 hours or so over food and drink, finding out about his job, his pets, his family or home state, his home life, travels he has been on, books he has read, podcasts he listens to, other hobbies (points for being a nature loving guitarist/singer)...

All the while, I am barely consciously seeing if I find him physically attractive. Do his lips look kissable? Do I like his hair and clothes? How is his breath, his body smell? Can I imagine his hands on me? Was he polite to our waiter/waitress? Is he smart? Is he kind? Does he have good table manners? Is he funny? Does he look me in the eye, or avoid eye contact?

If he passes the audition, when we are finished with our food and drink, we go out to my car. If I liked him, we have a little kiss. Then I go home. Then, over the next few days, some thinking... Was I bored on our date? Do I want this person? Are we texting pleasantly since the date? Does he intrigue me, make me laugh, do we have non-sexual things in common? Am I sure he isn't an ax murderer? Does it sound like he really wants to date me, or is he out for one cheap lay? Is he poly? Is he single? Married or with a serious gf already? How is he handling that status? Is he a narcissist? Is he a slacker? Etc etc.

I come here with my partner, Bob, he's in there having a good time. **smile** Are you here with someone?

Since I don't do casual sex, I would see your smile as a leer. A come on. "Come and get me, I am open for business."

Yeah, my girlfriend is here with me, she's in the ladies' room. (They will typically elaborate on some basic relationship facts. Prompt if needed.)

Ah, so are you both interested in playing tonight? **smile** Have anything particular in mind? (Assuming he has not just volunteered this info.)

I can do *some* kink with relative strangers. I could see us just practicing ties. I could see being massaged, or having cups attached to me. I don't think I could do wax, or have someone cut me, or do needle play or stapling, that would be too intimate with a "stranger."

I have been flogged by a woman after I wore out the 2 partners I was with at a big convention. But doing actual sex with someone I chatted with for 10 minutes just seems so alien to me. Swinging is just not my thing!

Go on to describe what you're into, or tell anecdote of what you've enjoyed in the past...

The important thing is sending and receiving good nonverbals the whole time...

Sending good non-verbals to someone I've only known 10 minutes? I just couldn't flirt hard with someone (with intent to fuck asap) I knew nothing about. And telling them "what I'm into" sexually... Well, I've done it in the safety of OKC chat, but in person with intent to act on it almost immediately? Not my cup of tea.

I have had sex quite a few times on a first date, although generally I wait til the second date. However, if I do have sex on a first date, it's only when we have spent time PMing/texting over the course of a few days beforehand, and I have a sense of who they are, and how they would act intimately and sexually. Of course, I need to feel "safer" with a person than in this swingers club scenario, since we'd be alone together, not surrounded by strangers who would step in if he was trying to kill me or rape me.

I guess this is all about swinging, not polyamory. So the idea of initiating at a swingers club is shudder inducing.

Really??

That's interesting. Those kinds of things tend to work really well for me in just making casual talkies with people. Ah...but... If someone had a case of the shudder and uncomfortable, I would see that and not engage/persist.

...I'm happier talking to a new friend, that I just met, than someone I know well. The new person hasn't heard all of my stories, and I have not heard theirs.

That's interesting... to me, human interaction is not about "telling stories." It's about intimacy. I get bored with dating because I feel like I have to tell my same "getting to know you" stories over and over. I prefer LTRs, when the past stories are told and you are making new stories in your adventures together. Seeing each other grow, overcoming challenges, exploring new environments and other stimuli together, even watching good quality movies and shows together and learning what they see in them that I don't.

Mags, what made you uncomfortable, the idea of trying to do that conversation, or the idea of someone approaching you and making that kind of conversation? I has a curious.

It's the jumping into sex with a stranger part that makes me shudder.

Obviously sex with strangers doesn't skeeve KC out. She's here to say she wants it, she just doesn't understand how to initiate it.

I am not sure why she is motivated to do it. If she has a hard time initiating sex with her long term intimate partners (hubby and bf), how much harder is it to initiate with someone you know nothing about except he's horny and wants to fuck?

I did have a few dates with Arjun, who has been to sex clubs, and he said, he'd just go near some people who were having sex, and just stand there naked, and he'd wait for someone to notice him nearby, and just beckon him to join them. This seemed to work for him. Now granted, he was in his mid 20s, tall and lean and smooth skinned, a full head of hair, a sweet face, and a 9" cock.

 

[FeatherFool]

I am not sure why she is motivated to do it. If she has a hard time initiating sex with her long term intimate partners (hubby and bf), how much harder is it to initiate with someone you know nothing about except he's horny and wants to fuck?

It wouldn't have to be harder. It could be easier, depending on the people involved. People sex differently, is all. I'm not into casual sex, usually (trust issues, yo), but I can definitely see how it could be harder to initiate sex with those nearest and dearest vs unknown people. I see it as a bit like asking someone on a date. I find it's a lot easier to ask someone to go out right away, as soon as I feel that sizzle. If I get to know them, maybe start a friendship... it's a lot harder to ask. The risk feels higher.

And, in any case, it's not my place to judge how people sex or how they want to get the sex they desire (if that makes sense) as long as everyone is of age and enthusiastically consenting. I think it's super brave to go after what you want, especially if it's a new and scary situation. I've dealt with anxiety and a nearly constantly changing list of weird-ass phobias almost my whole life, and I know that facing something uncomfortable to get what you need and/or desire safely is not easy.

I wish I had advice, but my flirting/propositioning toolkit consists entirely of "blunt instrument" and "intense debate". Suave I am not.

 

[KC43]

Feather's got it. Like I think I said--tried to say, anyway--with Hubby and my boyfriend, the difficulties about sex are because I actually give a damn what they think of me. That's the down side of being in love, for me; their opinions matter to a very high extent. Add to that the fact that in the past, Hubby actually did say judgmental and hurtful things when I initiated sex or asked him to try new things. It's been a couple of years since he did that, but the damage was done. Although he and my boyfriend are both extremely positive and supportive about the whole thing (the club, my explorations of my sexual interests and quirks, etc.), the fear of their judgment is still there, and if either of them did judge me or say something negative, it would hurt. A lot; possibly more than I'd be able to handle.

However, at a club like this... First, everyone's there for the same reason. Any guy who judges me for being there to have sex is a fucking hypocrite, because that's why *he's* there. Second, because these are mostly people I'm meeting for the first time, I don't give a flying you-know-what what they think of me, so it is far, far easier for me to agree to fuck them, or play with them, or be flogged, or whatever. If they do judge me or say something negative, I don't actually give a shit. I just think "God, what a frigging asshole" and walk away. It isn't easier for me to *initiate*, but that isn't because I worry about what they'll think; it's because I get stuck on "How do I say this? Where are my words? Shit, I'm overthinking this!" Which is why I posted this thread.

It isn't as much about *having* sex for me as it is about *learning*, though. I'm learning a LOT about my own desires, interests, and quirks through seeing and hearing what others do, and I'm learning that things I didn't know I was into, or knew but was afraid to admit, are actually not abnormal or even all that uncommon, and it's okay to be into them whether or not I actually act on them. I'm also learning how to be strong, positive, and confident in a social setting, because the people at this club overall are extremely friendly and supportive. None of them know me. They don't know I have PTSD. They don't know I'm afraid to open my mouth in groups. They don't know anything that's happened to me in the past, or anything about me that I don't choose to share. The people who know I have both a husband and a boyfriend/Dom don't call me greedy or ask how I can have two men when they don't have any or think I'm a worthless whore; they say "Wow, that's awesome! You're so lucky! Why haven't you brought them here yet?" It's the only place I've ever gone to where I can join a conversation amongst a group of women and *not* hear them bitching about anyone else or being catty; and I never hear anyone saying anything negative about others' interests or appearance. I *do* hear a ton of compliments, to me and to others, and body positivity and sex positivity reign supreme there.

*That* is the benefit of going, for me. For a few hours every week, I get to be the woman I WANT to be, without fear and without second-guessing or thinking about how fucked-up I am, and it's beginning to carry over into the rest of my life.

 

[Spork]

Yes yes yes.

OK so Mags, I'm closer to where you're at in my preferences in general. When I was naked at Thunder, and "luring"...the lure was only for conversation. It was chat-bait, not sex-bait. I didn't play with anyone but Zen. I didn't even get propositioned for play, or looked up and down, or any attempts made on my person for play or sex of any kind. But (get this!) it's actually PART OF ORIENTATION at Thunder, "how to respectfully approach people and not be a creeper." I'm not joking. They tell people to look for something you can compliment about them (not a body part!) to start conversation.

I like to talk to people. I love the story exchange. I feel that all humans have different stories, and it's sharing our human experiences through the telling of them that enriches life. Like art, writing, and music. Storytelling. I love it.

So I walked around in my socks, boots, and jewelry, with Zen, and I had some nice conversations in a gigantic room at a kink convention full of people getting their slap and tickle on. It was FUN!

And I don't think my smiles come off as a leer...but I'm a tiny friendly little brunette, slightly nerdy and entirely not threatening in person, except that sometimes my extrovert energy can be overwhelming to some introverts. I am working on being more aware of that and sensitive to my introvert friends. I like to be thoughtful, I want to be kind.

But my response did steer towards the notion of introductory moves to casual sex and a party, only because that's what KC43 was talking about.

And the closest parallel I have to it, is my BDSM party experience.

I am not interested personally in having intercourse of the kind I have with ~partners~ in a public place or with a near-stranger. Even the Worm King, who persuaded me to hop into his bed on the first date, had weeks of OKC chatter leading up to that. I actually made him wait for that date, until my college semester ended! I think it was almost a month.

But I get...oh, do I ever get...being in a place full of nonjudgmental people, and those whose opinions you're not really that invested in either. Being at the BDSM parties helped me overcome my body image issues, my tendency to compare myself to everyone and come up less, my fears on a number of things. I get to explore my exhibitionism in comfort, and be a voyeur while projecting love and approval at my friends, so that they can feel more happy and comfortable in their skin, too. And the energy in the room is warm and wonderful, and no one is creepy or skeevy. It's just...nice. It's a whole different world. And I am able to even bring some sex stuff into my public play and objectification and so on...and when I get up off the bench or the cross, everyone in the place still respects me just as much as they did before. Because we're all there exploring stuff, doing stuff, having our fun.

I think the main thing that keeps me on the BDSM side and not the swinger side...at this point...there is my intensity with Zen, he's kind of the one I want right now, and there's the fact that sex without kink sounds rather boring to me these days. But that's all personal choice, and I respect KC's.

 

[Magdlyn]

Thanks for your explanations, friends. They make a lot of sense. And I apologise deeply to KC for taking it off topic into my reasons for not liking public sex and lukewarm feelings about publically doing kink. I apologise to you, Spork, for the "leer" comment. I didn't mean you were leering, I'm sure you don't! I entirely respect both of you and encourage you in your explorations.

 

[KC43]

Spork, I think I forgot to say, in trying to clarify and explain, but THANK YOU for all of your suggestions! While you're talking from the perspective of chatting with folks at a BDSM play party, the *social* interactions aren't that different, and that's the main thing I'm struggling with. I'm going to re-read your responses a few times to get them into my brain, but what you've said is extremely helpful!

Mags, no apology needed here It's actually good to see different people's perspectives and points of view. I know you have strong opinions about some things, but I also know that you are open-minded and respect other people's opinions even when you don't agree with them. So it's all good as far as I'm concerned. But thank you.

 

[KC43]

But I get...oh, do I ever get...being in a place full of nonjudgmental people, and those whose opinions you're not really that invested in either. Being at the BDSM parties helped me overcome my body image issues, my tendency to compare myself to everyone and come up less, my fears on a number of things. I get to explore my exhibitionism in comfort, and be a voyeur while projecting love and approval at my friends, so that they can feel more happy and comfortable in their skin, too. And the energy in the room is warm and wonderful, and no one is creepy or skeevy. It's just...nice. It's a whole different world. And I am able to even bring some sex stuff into my public play and objectification and so on...and when I get up off the bench or the cross, everyone in the place still respects me just as much as they did before. Because we're all there exploring stuff, doing stuff, having our fun.

This. A hundred-plus times.

I'm not entirely comfortable being touched by people, even those I know. I have body-image issues that all the help and support and domly powers of domness from my guys have not been able to fully overcome. And yet my first night at the club, I lay naked on a massage table with anywhere from 4-7 people massaging me, and several others watching... and I didn't feel awkward. I didn't feel self-conscious. I felt strong and powerful, because everyone there was invested in *my* enjoyment. And when the massage ended, three people helped me sit up because I was a bit wobbly in the aftermath, four of them gave me friendly, affectionate hugs and kisses and compliments, and everyone told me how awesome it was that I was so comfortable in my own skin. Three of those people were people I'd been hanging out with all night, and they've become ongoing friends.

That isn't an experience I could have had anywhere else. That isn't an experience I would ever have believed I would have at all. Taking off my clothes in front of my regular partners still makes me self-conscious sometimes, and the idea of strangers touching me would have sent me screaming. But the reality went light-years toward helping me feel more powerful and more confident in myself.

 

[Spork]

You know, I used to have this thing of having "outrageous" fantasies that were personal, private, that "I would never" have imagined being comfortable enough to DO. In fact, I couldn't even comfortably talk about them. I still struggle with saying what I want, to my partners, there is still a weird verbal brain block I have to navigate. But what is actually possible, because holy cow I have found a safe environment to explore it...that's changed. Surprise!

I thought that my first social event with these folks would be "a big deal." I was scared to go in. It wasn't.

I thought my first visit to the club/dungeon would be "a big deal." It wasn't.

I thought my first party would be "a big deal." It wasn't. (at least none of these were a big deal in terms of being SCARY.)

And I was sure that taking my clothes off in front of people for the first time would be a big deal in some way. We're used to society in the outside world where if you're naked, everyone is LOOKING AT YOU. You stand out. The closest parallel the "muggles" have is strip clubs, where the naked people are the subject of staring and ogling, they're naked for entertainment because hey...naked people...it's some kind of a BIG DEAL.

While I'm not as hung up on my body, and I've had people say they enjoy watching my scenes, and men I know like to see me nude at the parties, I don't feel weirdly stared at. I can walk up and just talk to people, and still feel human. I don't feel vulnerable. Maybe because everyone there knows that they have to ask before they touch and the rules feel...sacred. It's so comfortable, and feels so free.

I've participated in the many-hands-massage scenes, both as a bottom and a top, at our parties, too. That's fun.

And Mags, I echo that there's no need to apologize. I wanted to convey that my mention of the smiling was a matter of being socially warm, not even necessarily being flirty. These interactions happen in layers. Each layer is a request for permission to step to the next layer, and we do it all the time without being conscious of it, most of us. When I used to ride the bus, I didn't want to talk to the weird people, so I'd wear a baseball hat, and bring a book. I'd be peripherally aware of everyone around me, but I'd meticulously avoid eye contact. People usually try to do eye contact before making verbal contact, so cutting out that first step kept people from bugging me, and it sends a strong primitive human message that you don't want to talk.

Eye contact and a smile is almost an invitation to talk. At least to initiate small talk. If small talk is welcomed, then deeper talk can go from there. Or if you blunder, or the person decides they aren't actually interested, they might stop somewhere in the small talk stage, and look away a lot or turn away or extricate. Talking to people online, especially men, I'm often surprised how many folks don't really know the steps to this dance. The harder part is making it smooth and natural feeling, but like any dance that is a matter of practice.