Secondary Partner to Engaged Woman and Confused About Our Future

K

KnowThyDirection

New member
Hey everyone, this is my first post, and I'm really glad to learn that this place exists.

I've dabbled on and off with polyamory for a handful of years. Right now, this is my third and most serious attempt at it.

I've been seeing an engaged woman for a few months. Her very busy fiancé, bless his heart, gave her permission to find another partner to be with because he wasn't giving her enough attention. This is their first try at polyamory. Things have gone mostly really good, but I admit it is starting to feel really, really hard.

We have both fantasized about one day being monogamous together. We were both initially committed to seeing multiple people, but we grew closer and wanted to spend more time together. We both agreed that it's still too early in our relationship to think about such a massive decision, so we decided together that we would only see two people at a time each (for her, that's me and her fiancé; for me, that's her + 1 other woman who I was dating but am now not dating).

The more she talks to me about a potential monogamous future with me, the more scared I feel when she plans long times away from me to be with him. For example, they just went on a vacation halfway around the world, and they have more plans to fly out for the holidays this year. I also feel scared about being a 'secret' in her life. Only her fiancé knows about me. She is not 'out' to anyone, so I am excluded from work parties and meeting her friends. I feel isolated in the relationship. I also don't like having no contact with her while she is away, and having to spend a lot of time alone. I am trying to allow myself to feel interested in pursuing other women, but it's hard. I think I would feel more comfortable if she were 'out' because I might not be so excluded and isolated.

How reasonable is it to bring this stuff up with her? I admit that I would like a monogamous relationship with her, but I don't think it's safe for me to bet on that since its only been a few months and I have no idea where this is ultimately going. I do know that even though I'm a secondary partner, I am still a partner, and I would like to feel more like one.

What do people suggest? Have you been in any similar situations? How did you handle that?
 
My suggestion is to stop the monogamous cowboy fantasies and ask her to do the same.

She's not single; she's engaged to be married to someone who isn't you. If you can't handle that you should step away from the relationship before you cause problems.
 
Emm said:
My suggestion is to stop the monogamous cowboy fantasies and ask her to do the same.

She's not single; she's engaged to be married to someone who isn't you. If you can't handle that you should step away from the relationship before you cause problems.
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That's a good idea. What about feeling excluded from her life? Am I supposed to just suck it up and deal with it? Does a secondary partner still have some partner rights? I hope that part of my dilemma came through in my original post.
 
I am sorry you struggle.

You are not in a monogamous relationship. You are in a poly one. I'm not sure what agreements were. What were they?

For her to be offering you something she's not currently free to offer seems wonky to me. Don't encourage that behavior. Tell her to stop all mono fantasies. If her intention is to break up with her fiancé? Stop dating her for a while so she sorts her situation out so she is ABLE to date you monogamously. Not put cart before horse.

If it is YOU who wants a monoship? What are you doing participating in a polyship? End it with her and seek the monoship you want from someone who is actually free to give you that relationship shape at this time.

A secondary partner has rights. You can find some info about that here.

But I think you make your own personal standard for how you want to be treated in a relationship. You want behaviors like

  • You want to be "out." You don't want to be someone's "secret."
  • You want to be more included in her regular life -- meeting her friends for instance or attending work parties.
  • When she's away on trips, you want her to take the time to check in briefly to let you know you are thought of. You do not like zero contact.

Then you measure her behavior up against your personal standard. Do they make the cut or not?

  • If not, you ask if she could be willing to change some of her behaviors.
  • If she does not want to, then you think about not dating her any more because she's not actually compatible with you.

Keep this a lot simpler on yourself.

It is totally reasonbale to talk to your partner about what you would like and how you want to be treated in relationships. What Open models you are up for and which ones you are not. That's the point of dating -- to sort out the compatible dating partners from the incompatible ones. You aren't going to find out unless you talk.

So...sort it out.

Galagirl
 
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It sounds, to me at least, that whatever agreements were worked out between all the involved parties kind of got lost in the rush of New Relationship Energy. She is talking of ditching her fiance for you and yet treating you like the back up guy he probbably agreed she could find to while away the times when he is too busy. You stopped seeing your other person and have not found someone to share time with to while away the times when she is busy. The thrill of falling in love combined with so much focus on each other has led you to default to monogamous fantasies.

Talk to her about what she agreed to with you and what she agreed to with her fiance and any changes you would like in your agreement with her. You both sound confused as to what you want to be doing.

I hope it goes well.

Leetah
 
Thank you so much for these helpful responses and resources. I can't even tell you how reassuring it is to me. It helps to know I'm not alone in some of the issues I'm struggling with.

I do think a discussion is in order with her next time I see her. One thing I've realized is that I do want at least one primary partner. I feel safer and securer in a relationship when I receive regular time with someone. If relatively equal attention could be given to both me and her fiancé, this would be a lot easier on me, I think.

I definitely am wanting more of a primary status with this woman since the monogamy fantasies evolved. Until then, I was fine. It becomes really hard for me to be in love with someone when I'm a secondary partner and kept at a distance. It sucks, really. If she can't offer me more in our relationship right now, I don't know what more I can do except find someone else who can, and see how much I'm willing to deal with in this relationship with her in the meantime.

Thanks!
 
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I do think a discussion is in order with her next time I see her. One thing I've realized is that I do want at least one primary partner. I feel safer and securer in a relationship when I receive regular time with someone. If relatively equal attention could be given to both me and her fiancé, this would be a lot easier on me, I think.
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Sounds like what you are missing is enough time and regular time with her. NOT that she spend her time equally between you and her fiancé.

I doubt you would feel like your time needs are being met if you feel good at 4 hours a week with her. And she spends 1 hour with you and 1 hour with him a week. (Which IS equal.) But then she spends 15 hours golfing.

I encourage you to stop comparing "what he gets" and sort out what YOU need to feel happy in a relationship.

If you want to practice a "co-primary open model" ask if that is possible here.

If you are not happy being kept at a distance, ask if this is all the time/attention she can give or if this can change.

Sort it out.

If she can't offer me more in our relationship right now, I don't know what more I can do except find someone else who can, and see how much I'm willing to deal with in this relationship with her in the meantime.
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This is one way to seek a primary. Continue to date her but start seeking someone else who better meets your time and attention needs.

Another is to end it with her and seek a primary without also dating her.

Galagirl
 
Hi KnowThyDirection,

There seems to be three major issues with your current partner; first, you want more of her time and attention; second, you want her to out herself and accompany you openly; third, you want to be an equal primary partner along with her fiancé.

These are reasonable things to bring up with her. Just be aware that something can be reasonable and still not be something she's willing to do. You have your wants, needs, and preferences, and she has hers. They may or may not line up. The only way to find out is to talk with her about it.

I don't recommend aiming to become monogamous with her, because she has a very generous fiancé who has graciously allowed her to add you to her life. If she were to dump him, that would be a terrible way to thank him. It doesn't seem ethical to me. The whole premise that he agreed to in the first place was that this would be a polyamorous arrangement. All three of you agreed to that.

Anyway, you should do some talking with her, about all of these things. I hope you and her (and him) can get it worked out.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
It is absolutely possible to have two primary partners - I know, since that is my polycule; we're a V. Both of my husbands are currently monogamous with me. Until recently, I had 3 primary partners, but I would not recommend that to any person unless that have VERY strong poly skills!

You absolutely have the right to be loved and cherished and to get the time you feel you need from partners in a relationship. Definitely ask her if she is capable of filling that need you have. And it's perfectly reasonable to want to have an out and open relationship as well. Not everyone can swing that, however, and if this woman says no, you'all have to decide if that's a deal breaker or not. My V is completely out to everyone in our lives. It wasn't easy, but it's the way all want to be.

It's concerning to me that your girlfriend is discussing monogamy with you. If that is something she is considering, why is she going off on vacation with her fiance? Has she spoken to him at all about these feelings? That's not very good poly, and to me it sounds like someone who is on the verge of being a cheater. I mean, really? I would consider that a huge red flag! I have never discussed breaking things off with any primary partner and setting off into monogamy, even when in the throes of NRE. To me that sounds like someone who is a very poor partner. Are either of you truly poly?
 
I think you have received some very good "food for thought" from the other replies.

I am married and have a boyfriend (so I can relate to your GF's position).

When we were first together Dude would occasionally make "mono fantasy" comments - I shut those down HARD and FAST - and I think the both of you would benefit from "not going there" as well.

Like Bluebird I view my boys as "co-primaries" (or working toward it). Being "out" though - is difficult for me due my profession and our location (rural/conservative). This has been hard on Dude at times - he doesn't care about "work functions" but restraining PDAs in front of friends/family is hard. Over the last 5 years we have been selectively "outing" ourselves to trusted friends and family - that has been working well so far.

I live with both of my men, so the "time/life" sharing is not a problem. (This was an easy decision for us - since they were best friends before I met Dude. Don't know if that would be feasible for you.)

If you want a "primary" type relationship and she is not willing/able to provide that? I think that you must know that seeking that while still seeing her will be a hurdle that most women will not be willing to jump (unless they are firmly in the poly camp themselves).
 
kdt26417 said:
Hi KnowThyDirection,

There seems to be three major issues with your current partner; first, you want more of her time and attention; second, you want her to out herself and accompany you openly; third, you want to be an equal primary partner along with her fiancé.

These are reasonable things to bring up with her. Just be aware that something can be reasonable and still not be something she's willing to do. You have your wants, needs, and preferences, and she has hers. They may or may not line up. The only way to find out is to talk with her about it.

I don't recommend aiming to become monogamous with her, because she has a very generous fiancé who has graciously allowed her to add you to her life. If she were to dump him, that would be a terrible way to thank him. It doesn't seem ethical to me. The whole premise that he agreed to in the first place was that this would be a polyamorous arrangement. All three of you agreed to that.

Anyway, you should do some talking with her, about all of these things. I hope you and her (and him) can get it worked out.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
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Thanks, Kevin. I agree that her dumping him would really, really suck! I know she feels the same. They do have issues. If she leaves him, it really would have to be for reasons other than me. I keep encouraging her to work on herself in their relationship, potentially seek counseling, and to communicate more with him about what she's doing with me. Ultimately, she's going to do what she wants. I can only try and show my care.

In an ideal world, to me, she would keep seeing the both of us, attempt to work through things with him, and step it up a bit more with me (i.e. more boyfriend privileges, and less 'secondary' treatment). I'd even like to meet her fiancé, but my understanding is he doesn't want to know anything about me or her relationship with me. That worries me a bit. It seems like there are secrets flying all around: he doesn't want to know about me or our relationship, she hasn't given him a realistic dose of information about what we're doing together, and I'm being kept 'hidden' and secret from the rest of her life. All the covering up makes this really hard, I think. It seems like better communication is needed all around. That, and if we were all 'out' and not having to keep secrets, life would be so much simpler. But I guess there is a lot of stigma around this stuff and it makes it very hard for people to integrate it into the rest of their lives. So I'm not angry with her or him, but I am indeed trying hard to find ways that this could work for everyone involved. But I also understand these are merely my thoughts on the matter, and that only so much is up to me.

As for my part in this, she knows now that I want more from her in terms of contact frequency and not feeling so 'hidden' or excluded from the rest of her life...even if she stays with him. I have no idea if this is going to work for her and him, but I feel good that I've made my needs known. I'll keep seeing her in the meantime, but I won't be shutting down other potential partners and ignoring my needs. I hope it works out too! I care a lot about her and am learning so much.
 
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I don't want to be the voice of pessimism here, but are you confident the fiancé actually knows anything about what's going on and she's not just cheating on him? The complete radio silence when she's spending time with him and the fact that she's not out to a single other person in her life (you've not met her best friend? Anyone?) seem like red flags to me. Whilst some couples genuinely do practise a kind of don't ask don't tell policy, I personally steer clear of them unless there is a chance to verify the other person is fully consenting. Something to be aware of at any rate.
 
tenK said:
I don't want to be the voice of pessimism here, but are you confident the fiancé actually knows anything about what's going on and she's not just cheating on him? The complete radio silence when she's spending time with him and the fact that she's not out to a single other person in her life (you've not met her best friend? Anyone?) seem like red flags to me. Whilst some couples genuinely do practise a kind of don't ask don't tell policy, I personally steer clear of them unless there is a chance to verify the other person is fully consenting. Something to be aware of at any rate.
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I am confident he knows she has sex with me, and he knows what I do for a living. When her and I first got together, I saw his dating profile online beside hers, and they both stated they were new to trying an open relationship. He never found anyone, but she found me. They have both since taken their online accounts down.

She says he doesn't want to know anything about me other than whether or not she is safe with me. He doesn't know my name, or the level of feelings involved in our relationship, etc... He lets her stay at my place a couple of nights per week. He has let her go on vacations with me. Sometimes she says he sets limits, like if she wants to spend a third night in a row with me, he might say he doesn't like that. So yeah, he knows about me; he just doesn't really know what is exactly happening. I keep telling her she needs to talk with him more. I think he's under the impression this is just a hookup arrangement, but it's more serious than that.
 
Woah, wait a minute. I thought he gave his "permission" (*puke*) for her to fuck others, because he is too busy to meet all her needs? But now you say he was looking for others as well? If he's too busy to meet her needs, surely he is way too busy to try and maintain TWO relationships?

Be that as it may. This couple has a DADT relationship. And you accepted that when you started dating her. You know she is engaged to this guy, no matter how messed up their relationship is. You have no right at all to push for any more "openness" than first agreed upon.

I mean, you can. So can she. That is between her and her fiance. I have a feeling he would rather break up with her than let it be known he can't meet his fiancee's sexual needs, and agreed to let her seek others for sex, much less love.

As polys, most of us here never date members of a couple who have a DADT policy. If even your metamour wants to know nothing more than that there is safer sex being practiced, there is no way you will get to know her friends, their family, or be able to publicly acknowledged at all. Pull at your chains all you want, this is what you signed up for. If it bugs you a lot, there is nothing you can or should do but bow out.
 
Before anyone starts acting with authority on my relationship and telling me what I'm supposed to do comma remember that I came here for emotional support.

She claims that he knows she needs some kind of emotional connection with whoever she is sleeping with. when I asked her if he really knows how she feels about me, she says he doesn't want to know. This is the first time they are ever trying this out, and we are all trying to figure it out as we go along. iIt s not up to me though what she decides to do about it with him.I do know what I want though, and I am trying to advocate for a way that it can work for everyone.human relationships are complicated, and in this case it takes 3 to tango. Please remember that.
 
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Ouch! I think with this new information, I'd have to agree - DADT is a rough road. My last serious relationship imploded in part because my ex boyfriend's other lady couldn't stand the fact that I existed, and I had to actually structure a DADT policy of sorts, as he couldn't stop himself from overstating all sorts of private information about how upset she was. Boundaries are so very important in this sort of situation, and it sounds like your metamour is clear about what he is willing to accept. And it's clear that what he wants is in opposition to what you are desiring.

I'm afraid it is going to be very difficult for you to advocate for a more open style of relationship, when your metamour doesn't want to acknowledge your existence. With this being a reality in your situation, combined with their inexperience with poly, and you girlfriend's comments and conversations about being monogamous with you - I personally would bow out. This is drama. I see a lot of unhappiness coming your way.

I think you need to spend some time really thinking about your own wants, not only in a relationship, but in this one particular. If nothing changes - if your metamour remains firm that he wants a DADT, and your girlfriend capitulates, are you ok with always being a secret and never being out? Never meeting her friends or family? Maybe you are. Some people can handle this easily. I just know that I can't and it sounds like from what you've posted here, it's a struggle for you as well.
 
Bluebird said:
If nothing changes - if your metamour remains firm that he wants a DADT, and your girlfriend capitulates, are you ok with always being a secret and never being out? Never meeting her friends or family?
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No, I would not be okay with this long-term. I could probably find a way to deal with it for a while by dating other women and looking for a primary partner. But if things continue emotionally in the way they are now between us, I don't see how we could possibly last under the current arrangement. There's just no way. Either she'll leave him for me (which my gut says she is not going to take that risk and do) or I'll end up leaving her, either because a) I want more and can't deal any longer with the way things are, or b) I found someone else who wants the awesome loving relationship that I'm ready for.
 
If that's the case, then I think it is something you should communicate with her sooner, rather than later. If she lets you know that her fiance will never agree to that, and that she is unwilling to go against his wishes, then it's probably best you move on.

I think it is good that you can articulate here what it is you ultimately want. It was really, really difficult for me to deal with my metamour's issues. I am very much used to a family-style of poly, and the fact that she couldn't deal with that - it taught me a lot about boundaries and what I can and can't accept in a relationship. I will NEVER accept a DADT and I will NEVER be in that unhealthy of a dynamic again. Others can make it work, but I know now that I can't. I think it's awesome that you recognize that it is ultimately not for you, right now.
 
Bluebird, I did very recently fill her in on where I'm at (since I first posted this thread). My understanding is that she needs to find time to sit with herself, reflect, and figure out what it is she wants. I don't think she really knows right now, and she's afraid to make any decisions when there's so much uncertainty going on. She really just wants to be happy and is confused about what to do for herself. In the meantime, I'm doing my best to be supportive, respectful, and loving toward her, while I try to hang in there myself and not forget what it is that I need and want to be happy. I think that knowing what one needs to be happy has become clearer for me quicker than it has for her. I hope we can find a way to keep traveling forward on this journey together because I care so much about this person! If I'm able to, I will be with her on a very deep level.
 
Here is an update on how things turned out...

I decided to call things off with this woman. I needed more from her than she was able to give. She said she half-heartedly attempted to negotiate the boundaries of the relationship with her fiancé so that I could have more space in her life, and the conversation didn't go very far. I told her this wasn't fair for me, and it wasn't fair to her or her fiancé either. The emotional involvement in our relationship made it really difficult for me to be okay with 1-2 nights per week on her terms, while she has a partner every night of the week and I am alone and not willing to involve myself with someone else.

We set a breakup date and stuck to it. We both agreed that this experience taught us we couldn't do polyamory. I told her that I wouldn't be contacting her and that she shouldn't contact me, unless she was single. The breakup was amicable, sad, but actually quite beautiful. We spent several days together to say goodbye and celebrated our love. It was the best breakup I ever had.

She is still not happy in her engagement and I guess she is going to be devoting some time to trying to work that out. They may end up splitting up as a result, but they may not. She said she would love to explore the idea of us together again one day if she was single and seemed pretty adamant about it. She said she would need to be single for a little while first and recover from the breakup, get her own place, etc... and then contact me. I thought that was really sweet of her to say, but I'm certainly not waiting around to find out if she follows through with a breakup or still feels that way about me however far down the road that is, if ever at all.

Thank you all again for the support you provided to me, and to us, during this very confusing and trying experience. I have found it incredibly difficult to identify a sounding board where non-monogamy is not pathologized. I love this woman very much and have no regrets about my experience with her. I learned a lot from this person, and this experience, and whatever happens from this point on, I am thankful for it all. Now, I am taking the time necessary to grieve and heal my heart as a single man.

I don't think I'll be dating for at least a little while as I give myself the space necessary to mourn this loss. I have been out with a few women already since ending things with her, but my heart just wasn't in it, so I decided to not pursue any of these women beyond a drink and some chatting and I am just wanting to focus on me for a little bit. But I know that when I am ready to date again that I will be that much clearer as a result of my poly experience about what it is that I want and need.
 
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