Religion, politics, sex .. and other taboo subjects

[vinsanity0]

I fear he will start a national white supremacy/alt-right party of some kind. I do not believe that is out of the realm of possibility.

While I think Trump is a racist, I don't think he is radical like that. What he is is a marketing genius. His team has identified certain core groups and crafted messages to appeal to them.

Another example of marketing strategy is how these Catholic emails were leaked because Trump is losing the Catholic vote. I have yet to see a conservative media outlet report that Palmieri is Catholic or mention Trump's Pope bashing.

 

[FallenAngelina]

I think it's a little naive to think he will just fade into obscurity after the election.

As long as Donald Trump draws breath, he will never fade into obscurity, but he will not be anywhere near as relevant in the popular or political culture after this election. Without popular support, celebrity has no power. The media will cover him for a bit to get his colorful reaction to his huge loss and then he will fall from the front pages of all the newspapers, blogs, YouTube channels and TV news stations that have been following him around like puppies. Puppies are easily distracted and they will move on.

 

[vinsanity0]

As long as Donald Trump draws breath, he will never fade into obscurity, but he will not be anywhere near as relevant in the popular or political culture after this election. Without popular support, celebrity has no power. The media will cover him for a bit to get his colorful reaction to his huge loss and then he will fall from the front pages of all the newspapers, blogs, YouTube channels and TV news stations that have been following him around like puppies. Puppies are easily distracted and they will move on.

I wish I could believe that. Trump wasn't exactly politically relevant when he jumped into the spotlight with his revival of the Birther Movement. He knows how to work that weirdo crowd into a frenzy. Also, I truly believe he is a narcissist. He doesn't realize how much trouble his campaign is in. I hope you are right, but I don't see him stopping at all.

 

[FallenAngelina]

I truly believe he is a narcissist. He doesn't realize how much trouble his campaign is in. I hope you are right, but I don't see him stopping at all.

If ever there was a narcissist, it's that guy and he definitely won't stop, but my point is that the media follows what sparkles and after the election, he will certainly be around but he won't be anywhere near as alluring as he is now. Right now, every outlandish comment he utters makes headlines, but after the election, these amusing "pearls of wisdom" just won't matter. The focus will quickly change to the first woman president and that we have a shiny new re-booted Clinton White House once again. Trump will be irrelevant, which is media death. It will be interesting to watch what happens, in any case.

 

[Spork]

I'm actually kind of happy about something here...

(And I feel safer saying this, feeling this, because I do think Clinton will win.)

This election pulled the masks off of some nasty persons in my social world. In my opinion, anyone who will specifically defend what Trump has said, because "men talk that way" and thinks that I as a woman am being hysterical, thin skinned, pc, an sjw, a man hater or a feminazi, or otherwise I'm silly for being offended to the point of anger and hurt over this, and over their support and defense of it... The men who say I am "living in a bubble" if I don't realize that men are just pigs and talk like this. Those men, I don't want in my social world. I'm kicking them out. I don't trust them. I don't want to be friends. I do not wish to extend them any of my personal energy or goodwill.

There are real benefits to being my friend. I have helped and supported numerous friends. Sometimes materially. Sometimes with very heavy emotional support. I've saved the lives of suicidal friends, and I have raised money for friends who had emergencies like a job or housing crisis. I've helped friends afford to travel up to a festival we all wanted to attend. I've made big loans, I've soaked tears, I've fed my friends, I've kept them and their families safe.

This is not me simply symbolically huffing and flouncing. I'm withdrawing something that has historically had some value. I don't care if these men realize that or not. I know it.

I also believe that these men are the same men who will say that there is no rape culture. And that any time a story comes out either in our community or on the news about a rape or sexual assault case, these are the first men who will start questioning if she lied, or if there was some kind of a mistake here. Who will hold out and defend the accused until there is no possible remaining doubt of guilt, and then go silent. Who will never, ever support a woman who has been a victim. Ever. Men who will be silent when a proven rapist gets off with almost no sentence at all.

These men are the reason that I, and nearly every woman I know, has not only suffered some kind of sexual assault or violation of her consent, but knows very well that the odds of getting any kind of justice are practically none, and the very attempt will be so painful, difficult, traumatic and expensive, that there really just isn't much point.

And they have no idea what their support of Trump, saying that this kind of talk is normal man banter, is telling me about them.

Because no one elected these men to represent their gender. They are speaking for themselves, and probably their own immediate group of friends. It is very encouraging to me that the number of men I know who say this is NOT normal and acceptable, far outnumbers those who think that it is. But yeah...this whole business is letting me take out the trash.

 

[vinsanity0]

I think I was living in a sort of bubble because I didn't really see this sort of behavior...until now. But I don't hang out with a religious repressed crowd.

Some of the Trumpfans' comments truly boggle the mind. Trotting out Beyonce lyrics? Not understanding the difference between consent and non-consent?

My favorite response to people who say it's no big deal is to ask where their daughter lives. Of course they threaten me, to which I ask if it is because I'm not famous enough.

 

[Ravenscroft]

Anyone who sees even a Trump defeat as a "victory" is an idiot. Call it my opinion, but I feel that's verifiable.

Given what we've seen thus far, what's to be said if DJT "only" gets 46% of the vote?

That is your friends... your neighbors... your family... your LOVERS... your supervisors... your managers... your teachers... who are saying that anyone with a vagina is probably a lying whore & you're only getting what you really want.

What is it exactly that is "acceptable" here? 33% -- one in three people? 25% -- one of four?? 20% -- one of five? To be blatant, let me remind youthat the number of homosexuals is commonly "one in ten" -- 10%.

Even if someone so saintly as to shame Mother Teresa would become President, the fact remains that you walk among those who see women as inherently dirty & thus readily abused for amusement.

 

[FallenAngelina]

OK, Ravenscroft, I usually get you but you've left me stymied. Who are you addressing with your comments?

 

[Ravenscroft]

Okay, a little unpacking then.

The point I'm trying to make is that Donald Trump has become the Rorschach blot for our society. I get the feeling it could turn out he's running a gigabuck child-porn racket, & a substantial proportion of his minions would leap to defend him -- you know, "the past is past" etc.

And when the election's over, they will still walk among us, infected with the unsane thinking necessary to wholeheartedly support an image in the face of objective reality.

Consider all the hardcore religious types who stand behind Trump "because he's a good moral Christian man." He's said he's Presbyterian, & evangelical. (The Presbyterians say "he's not an active member" of any of their Manhattan churches. I doubt he's attended many services: when he did Sunday morning at an Iowa church at the end of January, he had to be stopped from tossing cash onto the Communion plate. )

And I do have, actually, much more humility than a lot of people would think.

I'm no fan of Rightist end-of-times Evangelicals (since 1977) but I cannot understand how it's possible that those people can hold those conflicting beliefs without being somewhat insane. Being able to hold up two mutually exclusive worldviews & objectively assess them is a powerful skill... but quite different from fervently believing both simultaneously in pure Orwellian doublethink.

This sort of delusion will continue to skew their worldview & the way they treat others, long after Trump is (please god) forgotten... & just in time to be rounded up to support Ted Cruz in 2020 (who hopes to finally put the Moral Majority into the White House). Trump has whipped up their xenophobia, their misogyny, their race hatred, he has encouraged them to not only bring it out into the light of day but to be PROUD of it, & indeed to EXPAND upon it.

Like, in hotly denying the existence of "a rape culture," & building up the memes on Facebook/Twitter/etc, the ground has been cleared to CREATE a full-on rape culture. There are now more people -- male & female alike -- who will be more likely to look at a woman or girl who's clearly been abused or assaulted in a sexual manner, & shift blame away from the assailant & toward the victim. IMNSHO, any such shift is reprehensible, no matter how minuscule.

I have no doubt that in the near future we will see someone take "the Trump defense": "she didn't say 'no' & she didn't complain soon enough, so my actions don't count."

If such a culture is allowed to expand, there will of course be localized fallout. When some of Trump's yapping dogs find that a woman dear to them has been brutally assaulted, THEN they'll scream for Justice, only to find themselves crowded toward silence & threatened with banishment.

The populace has been steered toward "looking out for #1" & away from considering the needs of Society -- even if that's just extended family or the neighborhood, "the village" as Clinton once put it.

Everyone demands a free ride AND the right to deny the same to others. "Give me my rightful due -- protect me, clean my water, take my trash, fix my roads, but first ELIMINATE MY TAXES. Need more funding? Well, then cut all of THOSE PEOPLE who are sponging off MY hard-earned dollars."

Trump is NOT the disease -- he could disappear in a flurry of foul smoke & the disease would remain. He might be a vector, a Typhoid Mary, even a willing host to the pathogenes, but the sickness was here before him, it's been refined & strengthened & made hardy, & now will flourish when we actively pretend the danger is past.

 

[Spork]

Yes...BUT...

OK, so here is a thing I put somewhere else but it belongs here:

http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-reasons-trumps-rise-that-no-one-talks-about/

I have *suppresses gag reflex* talked to Trump fans. Thing is, they...

1. Believe that Hillary is in fact going to immediately get us into a nuclear exchange with Russia.

2. Believe that Hillary is a criminal who is dangerous to their way of life.

3. Believe that Trump's personality even if it IS repugnant, is irrelevant. That it can be dismissed because he will do things they think will be good for them. What things? They believe he will shmooze Putin into not nuking us, to start with. They believe that Trump will fix the "very incomprehensibly complicated" tax code so that the economy will somehow work in their favor, because they don't understand the economy and they figure the rich guy does.

4. Believe that the "checks and balances" of the government will prevent him from doing other things that are particularly odious.

5. Believe that he will get rid of Obamacare, which they are pretty sure is...bad. (I actually agree that it's a flawed system, but that's beside the point.)

6. Believe that government and politicians are all crookedy crooked (I agree) and that business people are more honest (I disagree.) Personally I think those two systems (big gov, big biz) need to check each other, and maybe there should be laws to keep them from getting too incestuous. Otherwise...power and corruption begets more power and corruption, unchecked and monstrous.

Trump fans don't realize that with the layers and kinds of influence that exist among the powerful, big business and big government are equally horrifying in the things that they can easily get away with doing, and that NONE of the ones at the top of these institutions cares about regular America, except as chattel...a profit mill...serfs to their Lordships, keeping their glut afloat not just today, but for future generations of their genetic lines. The only thing I'm not real sure of, is if there is some kind of an endgame in this conspiracy, or just continuation of the power structure.

Thing is, they are desperately denying the importance of the rape culture stuff, really of ANYTHING that doesn't fit their desired narrative, because they are desperately afraid. It's just sad that they don't realize they should be desperately afraid of both of them, if anything. Certainly if Hillary is bad (and I'm not 100% sure, but I wouldn't be surprised)...Trump is worse! But they've already placed their bets, many of them.

I do not believe that all of the people who vote for Trump are in fact rape culture supporters. My ex is a Trump supporter and he says, "Hillary will get us nuked. Trump says bad things."

...

Here's what I think is freaking great though. People who never talked about consent culture are now talking about consent culture. I have two big social groups I'm part of. GWAR people: about 300 friends. BDSM people: about 200 friends. "Friends" being a loose term and including everything from fam to acquaintances. In the BDSM crowd, we understand consent. We get permission before we HUG someone. "Don't touch without asking" is the rule. GWAR folks however, are from all walks of life. Had a former "friend" who was a skinhead who just got imprisoned for selling meth. Have friends who are amazing artists and intellectuals. A drag king. An Army SF guy who came to a show in a white ballet costume, tutu and fake boobs and all. ALL KINDS.

A number of them are all "I'm not into this PC culture, I want to be an offensive asshole" mentality. And they make fun of the concept of rape culture, and often say it's not really a thing. They do ask, "why didn't she call the cops" and such. Some few go that far. One posted yesterday on Facebook saying something like "I have heard that all women have a story of being groped, raped, or sexually assaulted. I don't believe this. I don't want to believe it's really that common. I won't ask women to share their stories here, but I'd like to hear what you have to say...I'm hoping most will say it's never happened to them." And he got hundreds of comments from his female friends saying that, yes, it's all of us. We all have a story. Hundreds of women who have had consent violated, and only ONE who said it had never happened to her and she was surprised by all this too.

And she started the only argument on the thread, by saying something like, "I don't know where all of you live, but it's not like that here in Annapolis, MD and all the men I know are good men." She thought that we were man haters for saying that we'd experienced what we'd experienced, or that we must be living somewhere bad or doing something wrong. Oh, did she ever get shouted down. But here is the thing...I get it. She wants to believe that she's had a better experience not through sheer random luck, but because she made a better experience happen for herself. She wants the personal empowerment of being able to feel like consent violations are a natural penalty of bad choices, and if you live right, they won't happen to you.

The fact that SO DAMN MANY women eventually sounded off on that thread has her, and the OP, shocked and rethinking what they believed.

And many of his male friends said they were shocked, tears, jaws on floor, reading this. They had no idea.

I hate that this conversation had to happen. But it fucking does. America needs to get its head out of its collective ass about the concept of consent, and if it takes THIS to make people talk...well...at least people are talking and thinking now.

 

[Spork]

Let me tell ya'll about something I am sick of...

When I was in my 20's I discovered a radio jock called Mancow. I used to love listening to him when I lived in Des Moines, Iowa. It was listening to him, combined with some very bad experience with the welfare system when I was in desperate need, which convinced me that the government sucks and that liberals were BAD for wanting more of it (financially.)

At the same point in life, I read a bunch of conspiracy books and got all worked up about secret societies and tinfoil hat stuff. But eventually...and this was before I was really on the internet much, I came to a CONCLUSION. My conclusion was this:

The truth is whatever you want to believe.

For the most part, at that time, there was just no way to know. I was hearing a whole lot of "don't trust the lamestream media! Sheeple, baa! Lies!" And I realized there is NO real legit way for pretty much any of us to discover THE TRUTH about so many things.

Ultimately there were a lot of ugly things that, while I acknowledged they probably happen...I don't want to think too hard about them. Especially if there just isn't a lot I can do to change them.

And now, the internet.

I really think that ANY position that anyone has on pretty much anything, you can find "sources" to "cite" to back it up, on the internet. Which means that if you don't believe "credible" sources, because "the media"...then you basically are just shilling whatever you think is true, and backing it up with whoever was able to get a bias confirming yours published on a website of any kind.

The entire concept of journalistic integrity is so damaged that people place more faith in the words of stand up comedians than anybody reporting the news these days. And I suspect that's one of the reasons Trump has done so well in the "well he's just honest, says what he thinks, lots of people think that but are too scared to say it" crowd. Yeah, well, they loved Jeff Dunham before they loved Trump. So whatever.

Here we are.

Cite your sources all you like, someone will say it's all lies.

I had this in my mind this morning, but then I forgot about it, until I saw something on Facebook. A captioned photo of an older woman, who is supposedly a nun (who knows) and says something to the effect that if you are anti abortion, but don't care enough to put your taxes in for the care and feeding of babies born into hardship, then you are not in fact pro life. You're only pro birth. And maybe should learn some things about what "life" is actually about. It was a well worded take on an old sentiment. And one of the commentors on the post made a fuss about the horror and corruption of the Catholic church and I'm not even sure what his point was, but the original poster of the image engaged him. And it came down to, "Dead baby skeletons were found in the basement of a Catholic church in Colorado, so the priests were rapping the nuns (spelling error as posted) and the Catholics are evil and shouldn't be asked any question of morality ever." And the OP said, "I have attempted to find a record of the skeletons found, and could find nothing. Can you post a source?" And the arguer said, "You won't find one, it was in the 30s and it would never be reported by the media anyways."

So...how did he know?...is the question. Maybe his grand-daddy told him a story? He didn't say, he just continued to insult the OP and rant about how Catholics this and the media that.

And this reminded me of my train of thought in the shower this morning. Which goes also back to an argument I had with my ex last night on the phone...because I'm anti Trump, and he is anti Hillary. And he loves to hop on the "media lies! baa baa sheeple!" argument that the conservative talking heads have programmed into his brain. And of course Trump has been using this "you can't trust the media" angle now to try and hang onto voters.

It's frustrating. OK so no, the media doesn't always report honestly or accurately or timely or without bias. But that does not mean that the tinfoil hat forum site that you reposted on Facebook because your Army buddy shared it, should be everyone's REAL source of information.

Frankly, I'm not 100% sure about many of the anti-Hillary talking points. People say that GW Bush's administration deleted many more emails that they shouldn't have or something. People say that Kerry is trying to get Assange and that proves that all the wikileaks stuff is totes accurate. Or maybe it proves that Assange is interfering in an election, if the wikileaks stuff is NOT accurate, who knows? I mean somebody could come along and try to put some "facts" in here, but unless I see a video of Hillary confirming it, as accusations against her go, I am not sure anyone can be 100% positive about any of it.

I sure as hell don't care that she got cheated on. And I think it's shameful that some want to trot that out as a mark against her character.

But we do have video of Trump, again and again, saying awful things, that should be taken as reliable testimony as to his character.

I know a Trump supporter who actually seems to believe it's all some sort of act, a character, and when the time comes, he'll cast it aside and be amazing...that he's some kind of secret rebel leader, and if you're in the know, you can spot all sorts of secret signals he gives that he's REALLY on OUR side... Well, the aluminum millinery is doing a brisk business these days, for certain. Alien control rays don't stand a chance.

The whole thing is a mess. Everyone is in their own echo chamber at this point. And I watched a Lewis Black comedy routine from something like 15-20 years ago, and he was saying that as insane and ridiculous elections go, "this is it." No, Mr. Black, I'm sorry. You're wrong.

And I'm really far more scared that one day I'll be looking back at this one from a place where I've seen horrors worse still...

 

[FallenAngelina]

I sure as hell don't care that she got cheated on.

We actually do not know that Bill cheated. We know that he has had quite a few sexual relationships/escapades outside of his marriage, but none of us knows what kind of agreement Bill & Hillary have. I would not at all be surprised if they had come to a private understanding many years ago and I would not be surprised at all if Hillary and her real mate were to come forward sometime during her second term in office. I would not be surprised to see some form of polyamory come out of the fictional White House (House of Cards) and see public recognition in the actual White House.

 

[Spork]

We actually do not know that Bill cheated. We know that he has had quite a few sexual relationships/escapades outside of his marriage, but none of us knows what kind of agreement Bill & Hillary have. I would not at all be surprised if they had come to a private understanding many years ago and I would not be surprised at all if Hillary and her real mate were to come forward sometime during her second term in office. I would not be surprised to see some form of polyamory come out of the fictional White House (House of Cards) and see public recognition in the actual White House.

That would be very, very cool. I don't know if I dare hope or wish for such a thing.

But the bottom line for me was always, as long as no one is convicted of actually assaulting or raping someone...as long as there is consent as far as we know...I don't care, and I don't want to hear about it.

I had a friend argue that a man cheating on a woman is as bad as the way that Trump treats women, that any wrong done to a woman by a man should be seen as an affront to all womankind. I don't agree in the slightest. Women and men cheat on one another sometimes. Other people's marital or relationship issues aren't any of my business. If they worked it out and continued to be married, hey good for them. Even if he were an infamous philanderer, I cannot take her to task for "enabling" him. And I'd rather not hear about who they sleep with, and certain don't want to picture Bill in the act, thank you very much!

My point is that although there have been concerns...I cannot find anything solid and conclusive that convinces me that she is "just as bad" (let alone worse) and that seems to be the argument so many Trumpers are using.

So I did not watch the debate last night. I was having sex, which is far more fun. And this morning with my coffee in hand, I turned on the news and watched a few snips of recap.

I caught multiple programs saying that Trump has put the final nails in his own coffin by saying he would not or might not accept the outcome of this election. People saying that this will drive away his supporters, that it's not what they want to hear. That is baloney!! That is EXACTLY what Trump supporters want to hear. Who hired these people? Where is their head at?? Trumpers love to grump about how "crooked" Hillary is, and they've been dying for a candidate who would, when he lost, fight the "rigged" system. Hell, I've wondered if it was rigged. But I've always felt like well...a decision has to be made somehow. We do need to accept the outcome and get on with life. What is he gonna do, start a civil war? His supporters already fly the rebel flag! So when these talking heads say he has alienated his supporters saying he won't accept the outcome, I really do not know who in the hell they are talking about. The Trumpfans I know eat that shit right up.

I can't wait for this to be over. I'm fairly confident we're gonna see Hillary win, and I do fear the Russia situation with her stepping up and everything, sure...but I need the looming threat of Trump becoming a world leader to just go away.

 

[Magdlyn]

I fear he will start a national white supremacy/alt-right party of some kind. I do not believe that is out of the realm of possibility.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blog...ionalist-media-empire/?utm_term=.be7480dd030e

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/peter-dreier/stephen-barron-trumps-lat_b_11598490.html

Evidence Trump doesn't want to be president. It's not lucrative enough. He wants to be king of his own alt right universe, using media. Our present media is corrupt. This recurring theme of his shows he wants to create a better one, along Breitbart lines, with his super rich son in law (husband of that shill Ivanka) publisher, and Steve Bannon's help.

 

[opalescent]

I would not be surprised by this. But think of the toxic impact Fox News has had on our politics. A Trump network would be worse AND openly support white nationalist ideology (even if it was 'dog whistle' type of approach). There are people backing Trump who would have no trouble taking over and co-opting anything he does for their racist ideology. And if he gets money and attention out of the deal, he clearly is fine with that. It gives white supremacists the biggest platform they have had since the KKK in the 1920s. (And the Klan was everywhere then - it's overlooked now how widespread and influential they were.)

So it's great he won't be president, looks like. But he has made white nationalism mainstream and even openly acceptable among some. We are going to be dealing with the consequences of 'Trumpism' for a very long time, even if he himself fades away (and I doubt that will happen).

 

[Spork]

I would not be surprised by this. But think of the toxic impact Fox News has had on our politics. A Trump network would be worse AND openly support white nationalist ideology (even if it was 'dog whistle' type of approach). There are people backing Trump who would have no trouble taking over and co-opting anything he does for their racist ideology. And if he gets money and attention out of the deal, he clearly is fine with that. It gives white supremacists the biggest platform they have had since the KKK in the 1920s. (And the Klan was everywhere then - it's overlooked now how widespread and influential they were.)

So it's great he won't be president, looks like. But he has made white nationalism mainstream and even openly acceptable among some. We are going to be dealing with the consequences of 'Trumpism' for a very long time, even if he himself fades away (and I doubt that will happen).

I have some idea, about how widespread they were. I have a trunk. It is full of bits and bobs of stuff owned by my ancestors going back to about the early 1900's I believe. And my Great Grandfather's wallet is in there.

Inside of it was a KKK business card.

I demanded of my Mom and my Grandma, "WTF??" because I was concerned I might have a Klansman in my history (heaven forfend) and they told me that no, he went to a lot of Freemason activities and town socials and there were occasionally Klan guys who would hand out cards at some of the other social get togethers in hopes they'd recruit new members. This was in Ohio. Grandma was quite certain that her father was never part of the KKK. I was satisfied.

But that thing I talk about up above, how people only believe what they want to hear now...everyone is stuck in their own echo chamber, and we surround ourselves with voices that say what we like to think and hear, until we insist that the other side must be the minority. And whether you are a liberal person who knows the struggle and does their best to be supportive and caring to others in their hardships...or you are a paranoid conservative who believes that the media is fooling all the "sheeple" and they're gonna come fer yer guns (!!) and America is going right to pot, right to hell in a handbasket, and has to be saved from "special interests" like feminazis and colored folks...everybody thinks they are a certain kind of enlightened and the other side is trudging along brainwashed and delusional. Maybe we all are, in one way or another, huh?

But with all that going on, it doesn't matter what you're selling, somebody is gonna buy it. Probably lots of people. These divisions worry me.

So I hear the ones who say, "when in the hell was America GREAT??" but you know, I look at news of times back before I was born and I think surely there was once more dignity in politics than THIS... I mean, people running for President were expected to at least be civilized once upon a time, right? Where in the hell did that go? Can we have that back? Trump sure as all hell isn't the one to give that kind of greatness back to anybody, though, that's for sure.

 

[Lou32]

I've never been one much for politics but, even though I think Trump hits the nail on so many issues more than any leader ever, both he and Hilary are not suitable to be a leader of any country. I wish they would both stand down and someone else stand up. I really do not like either of them.

 

[Magdlyn]

Spork, there was no utopian time in the history of the US. You might think the time of the founding fathers was such a utopia, but it was based on slavery of blacks, the slaughter of Native Americans, and of powerlessness for women.

You might think just post WW2 was such a time. We defeated Hitler! But Jews and blacks were still victims of prejudice and violence in our country. Women were still considered to be inferior, and pressured to breed and keep house. Men wanted their wives to quit their jobs when they married. And we swung right into a time of the "Red Menace" and the horrific power of McCarthy, who managed to create an aura of communist threat, and blackball much of Hollywood who had only casually looked into communist ideas.

The hippies of the 60s and 70s were self consciously attempting to create a utopia. Blacks were struggling to take back power from whites. But the free love movement benefited men more than women. And we still struggle with racism.

"Make America great again." "America is already great." "America is the best country in the world!" Catch phrases based on xenophobia. It's silly at best.

We will always have conservatives and xenophobes in the South and Midwest. People who aren't in large cities tend to be tribal and fear those they don't come into contact with on a daily basis. People in coastal cities, or on the borders of the country, come into contact with others whose skin color and culture are slightly different, and have more opportunity to understand, accept, tolerate, and even befriend each other, and learn to live side by side.

Also, people in places of poverty receive a lesser education and tend to come up with theories based on fear of The Other. Also, older people cling to the fears of their youth. In general, currently, strong racists and homophobes tend to be part of an older generation. The democracy of the internet has enabled younger people to feel less threatened by those of a different skin color or sexual preference or identity. That is why millennials chose Bernie Sanders. To lure them, Hillary had to change her platform to reflect Sanders' ideals.

 

[Spork]

Spork, there was no utopian time in the history of the US. You might think the time of the founding fathers was such a utopia, but it was based on slavery of blacks, the slaughter of Native Americans, and of powerlessness for women.

You might think just post WW2 was such a time. We defeated Hitler! But Jews and blacks were still victims of prejudice and violence in our country. Women were still considered to be inferior, and pressured to breed and keep house. Men wanted their wives to quit their jobs when they married. And we swung right into a time of the "Red Menace" and the horrific power of McCarthy, who managed to create an aura of communist threat, and blackball much of Hollywood who had only casually looked into communist ideas.

The hippies of the 60s and 70s were self consciously attempting to create a utopia. Blacks were struggling to take back power from whites. But the free love movement benefited men more than women. And we still struggle with racism.

"Make America great again." "America is already great." "America is the best country in the world!" Catch phrases based on xenophobia. It's silly at best.

We will always have conservatives and xenophobes in the South and Midwest. People who aren't in large cities tend to be tribal and fear those they don't come into contact with on a daily basis. People in coastal cities, or on the borders of the country, come into contact with others whose skin color and culture are slightly different, and have more opportunity to understand, accept, tolerate, and even befriend each other, and learn to live side by side.

Also, people in places of poverty receive a lesser education and tend to come up with theories based on fear of The Other. Also, older people cling to the fears of their youth. In general, currently, strong racists and homophobes tend to be part of an older generation. The democracy of the internet has enabled younger people to feel less threatened by those of a different skin color or sexual preference or identity. That is why millennials chose Bernie Sanders. To lure them, Hillary had to change her platform to reflect Sanders' ideals.

Oh no, I completely know, agree, am on board with all that. That's why I tried (maybe didn't communicate it well) to say that the slogan was dumb, but it sure would be great if people trying to get elected could at least act like dignified and civilized individuals, and I have seen that get worse and worse until now we have THIS going on.

Anyhow.

My community was the GWAR community, centered around a punk/metal band that is severely offensive, right? I knew some 300-odd people. The core premise was the roasting of sacred cows and we had some pretty unsavory bastards in that mess...a few neo-Nazi types, some really bigoted redneck types who had this punk/rebel thing going on...and the mentality was just to put up with anything no matter how obnoxious or offensive because after all, GWAR, our beloved favorite monster band, was disgusting and offensive.

Well the thing is... I've known those guys, as have most of us to some degree or other, for years. I've read the late singer's memoirs and had many late night conversations with him, may he rock in peace... And he would sing songs about war machines and Nazi history because his parents were Brits fighting in WWII and from a young age he had a horrified fascination. The point of his character, the monster in the band, was to not glorify, but rather caricature, the things he found horrifying about humanity. And exorcise his own demons in the process. I think many fans didn't get that. He sang songs about gay people and AIDS. His older brother, who was possibly the one person he loved, respected, and looked up to the most in life, died of AIDS. Laughing in the face of despair and making the point that these realities are the REAL horror in the world...war, disease, suffering...was the point.

But small, low minds did not get that. And they thought it was "cool" to exalt these things, and that was the opposite of what their idols were ever about.

Which is how I ended up with "friends" who were bigots, Nazis, racists, homophobes, and generally absolute SHIT and now...things are changing. I'm changing, they are changing...more even than the band is changing with the passing of Dave and the replacement as singer with Mike Bishop, who is a genius and a great guy himself...the fans are changing. Those "family" ties are falling apart. And I've been taking out the trash.

In a way I can be thankful to Trump. Because frankly, the things he has said have pushed people to showing their true colors, and emboldened even a conflict avoidant, fence sitting coward like me, to take a stand and have a position. But I am yet horrified that there are SO MANY people in America who are so hateful. And they aren't all old. The people I kicked out of my life, are largely folks younger than me. Mostly struggling young low class and low income white males. They aren't getting their due, and it's got to be somebody's fault. It's terrible.

 

[Ravenscroft]

I was talking to an Army vet from the 1970s who served in Germany. Back then, if you sent like $5 to the KKK, they'd make you a member, send you a card & everything. (The newsletter cost a few bucks more.) The soldiers started passing the address around, until one day they all got called into a sit-down with their CO. He said he'd just become aware that some of his boys had joined an organization that stood against blacks (& Jews & Catholics, I should add), & that he could not tolerate anything so divisive in his command.

Actually, ALL of the guys were members, & the black soldiers pulled out their membership cards to show him.

Nobody in the platoon took the KKK seriously.

At its height, the second-wave Klan was heavily urban (rather than a gaggle of inbred backwoods crackers) & had morphed into a strange social club & marching society, akin to the Eagles & Elks & Moose & KofC & Masons, with more than four million registered members -- actual members, not self-anointed supporters. Any white person who wasn't an actual member probably knew at least one.

The KKK was strongly anti-saloon & laid much of the groundwork for Prohibition, & we all know how well THAT worked out.
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I dunno that I have ever lived in a GREAT United States... but it ain't been terrible or anything. That is not to speak for the experience of others. And I seriously doubt that some dude preaching Fascism (NOT Nazism, btw) -- even if it's just a character he's playing like Pee Wee Herman -- will achieve "great" for everyone.

It's all an invocation of Saint Ronnie. The Greatness was an air filledmyth back then, & it remains so. When asked to reflect upon "the good ol' days," Isaac Asimov said of downtown New York, "Everything smelled of horse shit."

And that's the first thought in my head EVERY time I hear of "greatness" -- it STILL smells of horse shit.

Two books worth considering: The Way We Never Were: American Families & the Nostalgia Trap, & The Way We Never Were: the Truth About "the Good Old Days". The former was written as an emetic for galloping Reaganism -- as one review says,

Those good old days were also days of racial discrimination, sexual repression, and looming threats of Communism and nuclear war. It was a time when fat was considered good for you; vaccines for polio and other diseases (like mumps and measles) were nonexistent, as were video games and laptops; massive suburban housing developments were a new and promising trend; and environmental concerns were few. The Cold War hung in the air, and the duck and cover drill (recently parodied in a fast-food commercial) was a common practice and a dispiriting reminder for children of the fragility of peace.

Is anyone else old enough to remember the fad for sending the kiddies off to school with nametags on strings around their necks, so that their charred corpses might be more easily ID'd in case of a nuclear strike...?