High bar for kink?

[pseudoclever]

This is more of a general relationship question, specifically meant for kinksters and those with experience in that realm.

I was recently in a situation where my primary was involved in fairly heavy impact play and lifestyle (evening or weekend-long) D/s play with her partner. I personally began to perceive signs that their relationship wasn’t healthy - various red flags for emotional manipulation and gaslighting. My partner assured me I was misreading the situation. I mentioned to her, during a discussion about it, that because of their kink it made it extremely difficult to know where to draw the line between standard D/s play, and manipulative behavior. I struggled with whether or not to mention their kink arrangement as evidence that additional scrutiny was due.

So, is it fair to pay special attention to your partners’ kink relationships to make sure they’re safe and healthy? I have heard from some people in the community that this sort of gaslighting is all-too common with kinksters. Or is this the kind of thing, as with most of poly, that I just have to trust my partners and metamours, to make them aware if I’m uncomfortable, and if things get too bad to simply remove myself from the situation without regards to the safety of others?

Edit: in short, my question is, if you think you see dangerous behavior in a partner involved in kink, is it fair to ask them to take it more seriously SPECIFICALLY because they’re kinky?

PS, my specific situation has been resolved, looking for more general guidance.

 

[GalaGirl]

So, is it fair to pay special attention to your partners’ kink relationships to make sure they’re safe and healthy? I have heard from some people in the community that this sort of gaslighting is all-too common with kinksters. Or is this the kind of thing, as with most of poly, that I just have to trust my partners and metamours, to make them aware if I’m uncomfortable, and if things get too bad to simply remove myself from the situation without regards to the safety of others?

I think both.

I think it is fair to tell your partner things like

"Partner, I'm concerned about how you vet your kink partner(s). I wonder if you have considered ______?"

"Partner, I noticed __________ from your kink partner. It seems dangerous and concerns me. I wonder if you noticed that and find it concerning too?"​

I don't kink with anyone but my spouse. I trust him to stop and notice when I start to "slip away." I cannot look out for myself. Because I black out. I cannot fully consent to anything done to me in that window. I am NOT THERE. I'm also one of the "difficult" people to read. Even when I'm not there, I can carry on full conversations and INSIST that I am there and can consent. When actually, I'm NOT there and cannot consent. Because I'm on a head trip. I am in an altered state.

Knowing this about myself? I just don't go to that level often, and only with him. Once at a dungeon workshop we were doing new rope things and I told him I was having fun and I was going to let go and roll with it. He knew what that meant. I took off. I was NOT there. I came to much later.

He told me the teacher saw it happen and came running over to make sure I was ok and I was let out of the ropes and put on a couch with water. Spouse told me I was giggly the whole time and talking about all sorts of things.

But from my POV? I don't remember a thing from going up in the ropes to WAY later when I "came to" and found spouse holding my hand and the teacher still checking on me periodically. They had bodily moved me to another area to the couches. I didn't know that happened to me. I have no recall of any of the conversations I had.

The teacher had a lot of general experience with many types of people and knew to get me out of there. My spouse has a lot of specific experience with ME and knew to get me out of there.

Someone without enough general experience or specific experience with my personal cues? Who would BELIEVE my talk rather than be suspicious about whether or not I'm really there or not? Or with manipulative intent or gaslighting intent? Could do me bodily or mental harm.

Could have left me up there too long, could have done things to me while I was blacked out... and not nice things like move me to a couch with a blanket and get me water. It's edge play. One can easily cross the line and not stay on the "good" side of the edge.

So if my spouse told me something smelled off to him about a person? I would LISTEN.

And if I insisted on going there anyway with that person? I would expect my spouse to say "No. I do not consent to participate in this network like this. I am bowing out." Because his consent belongs to him. (It would give me serious pause if he did that. I'd be stupid not to listen if my spouse thinks it is SO bad he's going to walk away. )

But he retains the right to walk away from stuff. He retains the right to say "No. I love you a lot. But not even for you am I doing that." I think that is fair for him to do. Because I retain the same right.

Edit: in short, my question is, if you think you see dangerous behavior in a partner involved in kink, is it fair to ask them to take it more seriously SPECIFICALLY because they’re kinky?

Yes, I think it is fair. Being sad about a poly break up and enduring some heartache and mental ache? One can recover. One cannot recover loss of life or limb -- and some kink if not done well will lead to bodily harm that is not recoverable. Plus add the altered states? It matters.

Speak up to your partner if you have concerns. Do your side of the communication job.

They may or may not listen. But that's their side of the communication job.

Talk to your partner about all this. Make sure you are on the same page.

Galagirl

 

[kdt26417]

Hi pseudoclever,

I believe D/s play needs extra caution, it can be hard to tell what all everyone consents to along each step of the way. If you saw some red flags in the way a Dom was acting, your instincts were probably giving you a fair warning. On the other hand, the most you can do is express your concerns to your primary partner, after that she is on her own. You can remove yourself from the relationship if you strongly object to what's happening.

Regards,
Kevin T.

 

[BelleRose]

I think that expressing concern is more than fair, and yes, I think it's fair to ask for an additional level of scrutiny in a kink related or D/s relationship. The assymetrical power dynamic makes it too easy for manipulation to occur without the person realizing (at least for a while).

Additionally, this can happen regardless of which side of the power dynamic your parter is on. It may seem that the person in control would be more likely to manipulate or gaslight, but not necessarily. Suppose a submissive wants more of a Domme's attention, or even most of it, despite not being the primary partner. A Domme isn't just in control, they are responsible, so a sub could act out or create cause for concern that would lead to a need for increased time and attention from the Domme.

 

[Tinwen]

I mentioned to her, during a discussion about it, that because of their kink it made it extremely difficult to know where to draw the line between standard D/s play, and manipulative behavior.

That's the crux of the matter. One can easily be overcautious (and ruin the play), or not cautious enough.
I think usual biases would be for the one who's involved in the relationship to not be cautious enough, and for the one who's watching to be TOO cautious, to see more 'red flags' then usual because of jealousy, because of a general suspicion of a kink that's not your kink etc.
So a conversation is certainly in place, but also I would advise knowing one is likely to be biased and cutting some slack (esp. if the person involved says she's happy with the dynamics).

 

[lunabunny]

I don't wish to hijack the thread, however I just have to say thank you, GalaGirl for sharing this very personal experience with us:

I don't kink with anyone but my spouse. I trust him to stop and notice when I start to "slip away." I cannot look out for myself. Because I black out. I cannot fully consent to anything done to me in that window. I am NOT THERE. I'm also one of the "difficult" people to read. Even when I'm not there, I can carry on full conversations and INSIST that I am there and can consent. When actually, I'm NOT there and cannot consent. Because I'm on a head trip. I am in an altered state.

Once at a dungeon workshop we were doing new rope things and I told him I was having fun and I was going to let go and roll with it. He knew what that meant. I took off. I was NOT there. I came to much later.

He told me the teacher saw it happen and came running over to make sure I was ok and I was let out of the ropes and put on a couch with water. Spouse told me I was giggly the whole time and talking about all sorts of things.

But from my POV? I don't remember a thing from going up in the ropes to WAY later when I "came to" and found spouse holding my hand and the teacher still checking on me periodically. They had bodily moved me to another area to the couches. I didn't know that happened to me. I have no recall of any of the conversations I had.

This insight really resonated with me.

I am not an experienced kink practitioner by any means, but under certain conditions I too can enter an altered state of consciousness, and on occasions have found myself "allowing" sexual things to happen to me that I wouldn't under normal circumstances.

So thank you. Your explanation will help me to explain this phenomenon to my partners a little better, which is something I've struggled to do thus far.

 

[GalaGirl]

Glad it helped you some, Lunabunny.

Whether it's sub space or sub drop or post orgasm bliss or whatever "stage of it" a person is in? Any stimulus that causes the right "brain dump" response is going to put in them in an "altered state."

From http://helloflo.com/what-is-subspace/

The sympathetic nervous system responds to BDSM because of the typical inclusion of pain and pleasure. A release of the natural chemicals epinephrine, endorphins, and enkephalins contribute to drug inducing emotions. These chemicals are a part of the fight or flight response which stimulates a morphine-like result. As a submissive, the chemicals increase pain tolerance, creating a floating feeling when pain is introduced. For many, a subspace creates a drunk or high feeling — pain is gone, problems disappear, and your current state of mind is a dizzy of joyful feelings.

That's why I think one could vet their kink people carefully, and it is fair if their other partners are concerned. You really CANNOT fully consent if you are in altered state. You are impaired.

What you can consent to ahead of time is consenting to put yourself in their hands and entrusting them to take of you and not cross the lines you set out. But if you are putting yourself in the hands of a shady sounding character that's not going to bode well.

I think it is natural for the other partners to be concerned about that skill/ability to vet people.

Galagirl

 

[dingedheart]

One cannot recover from the loss of life and limb...some kink play if not done well will lead to bodily harm that is not recoverable. Plus add the alter states ? It matters.


What you can consent to ahead of time is consenting to put yourself in their hands and entrusting them to take of you and not cross the lines you set out. But if you are putting yourself in the hands of a shady sounding character that's not going to bode well.

Galagirl

So in a case where things go wrong who’s responsible and who pays the clean up? Has anyone been dragged into court to pay damages? Let’s say for fun a poly wife and her BF/dom / master were awesome at planning, documenting/ recording each fantasy just stupid sloppy keeping it private...and their own documentation proves how risky and negligent they are in public spaces. Their sloppiness causes great harm to one of the family members a ( 13 yr child ) and to a less extent to a younger child. Who should pay ????

 

[vinsanity0]

So in a case where things go wrong who’s responsible and who pays the clean up? Has anyone been dragged into court to pay damages? Let’s say for fun a poly wife and her BF/dom / master were awesome at planning, documenting/ recording each fantasy just stupid sloppy keeping it private...and their own documentation proves how risky and negligent they are in public spaces. Their sloppiness causes great harm to one of the family members a ( 13 yr child ) and to a less extent to a younger child. Who should pay ????

This doesn't make much sense. What are you considering as "negligent"? Pay for what?

 

[vinsanity0]

Don't we all look out for a partner's well-being whether they are having kinky sex or not? Keep an eye out for behavioral changes in your relationship. You can't dictate what happens in other relationships.

 

[GalaGirl]

I think the parent of the children -- for putting them at risk with that behavior. Because if they behave like a footloose single when really they are a family person? Their behavior can and does affect their family.

The kids take damage that might not be able to be undone. This is exactly what I'm talking about. Their lives are forever changed. Therapy and whatnot might help them cope, but it's not like "never happened in the first place."

(And I'm still sorry about your situation in 2011, Dinged. That whole thing was horrible.)

Galagirl

 

[dingedheart]

This doesn't make much sense. What are you considering as "negligent"?

I think exchanging graphic text and emails and pictures on phones or shared home computers with adolescent kids in both homes to be risky and then if you dial up the volume of said material you could make a case of negligence.

I’d also say performing certain acts in public in....and then on top of that photograph or record said act moves toward negligence.

I could give you several examples of this but the one I think tops my list was the time we ( family ) were all at a water park it during winter so it was an indoor water park. One of those big hotels at the Wisconsin Dells (apparently the water park capital of the world ) While 3 of us were in that water my wife sitting in a lounge chair chatting via tablet with her “ master “ ....she made some grumbling comments of having to be there and that she was bored and that when he had the great idea she should play with herself in various ways. Ok so it worked that had this great trill she didn’t get caught because the place was too busy and no one was specifically watching her. HOWEVER what if she would have been caught and she/ we would have been throw out of the hotel.

Balconies also seems to be a big trill to them. Blowjobs and screwing on balconies is fun but what happens if you get caught ?? Or in elevators ?? If your single who cares but with a spouse and kids I think negligence is less subjective.

Pay for what?

The OP was concerned about his partner and the comment suggestion was voice your concern and if it gets too much take a walk.

My question was for a married spouse with kids ....a) walking away at the first sign of trouble isn’t as practical. And B) if something really breaks bad who pays the clean up. C) is there consideration for collateral damage.

 

[Vicki82]

To the original point- I think that it's a tough situation. My partner and I have had people express that they thought our relationship was/is abusive. These aren't people who really understand BDSM and D/s at all, and didn't want to.

I'm rather of the opinion that if it's consensual, then most of the time you need to stay out of it unless it's hurting you, in which case you get to decide what boundaries of your own to enforce. I don't think that activities are bad in and of themselves, and I don't judge dynamics even if they aren't my cup of tea.

I think it's one thing to do a check in and see how your partner is feeling, or perceiving specific things. It's quite another to tell them you think their partner is abusive.

 

[WhatHappened]

This doesn't make much sense. What are you considering as "negligent"? Pay for what?

It makes perfect sense to me. As gala said, there can be serious consequences to kink, life of loss or limb being only two.

DingedHeart mentions a child finding these graphic texts and photographs. Who pays the price--emotionally, financially? The child who is exposed, through no fault of her own, to her own parent in a very graphic photograph pays the price emotionally. Who pays for the counseling? Who is there to help the child through that? The kink partner who left those words and images to be seen? The 'master' who is involved with the parent?

I know a woman involved in poly and kink, including things like breath play. Her behavior is so odd at times, completely weird for an adult woman, that I have often wondered if she's sustained some sort of brain damage from some of her activities. Her husband is paying the price by being the sole support and the one who's carrying the great majority of the keeping the household going. She seems incapable of doing much of anything other than trolling the internet for the next man. He's paying the price--not whatever kink partner caused the damage.


Gala mentioned other consequences. I've seen articles about people who have died in kink situations. Who pays for the funeral? Who supports the spouse or children left behind?

The question makes perfect sense.

 

[vinsanity0]

I think exchanging graphic text and emails and pictures on phones or shared home computers with adolescent kids in both homes to be risky and then if you dial up the volume of said material you could make a case of negligence.

I’d also say performing certain acts in public in....and then on top of that photograph or record said act moves toward negligence.

I could give you several examples of this but the one I think tops my list was the time we ( family ) were all at a water park it during winter so it was an indoor water park. One of those big hotels at the Wisconsin Dells (apparently the water park capital of the world ) While 3 of us were in that water my wife sitting in a lounge chair chatting via tablet with her “ master “ ....she made some grumbling comments of having to be there and that she was bored and that when he had the great idea she should play with herself in various ways. Ok so it worked that had this great trill she didn’t get caught because the place was too busy and no one was specifically watching her. HOWEVER what if she would have been caught and she/ we would have been throw out of the hotel.

Balconies also seems to be a big trill to them. Blowjobs and screwing on balconies is fun but what happens if you get caught ?? Or in elevators ?? If your single who cares but with a spouse and kids I think negligence is less subjective.



The OP was concerned about his partner and the comment suggestion was voice your concern and if it gets too much take a walk.

My question was for a married spouse with kids ....a) walking away at the first sign of trouble isn’t as practical. And B) if something really breaks bad who pays the clean up. C) is there consideration for collateral damage.

Other than keeping porn unprotected on a shared computer, I mostly disagree. My recollection is you weren't exactly a willing participant so I understand why you might exaggerate the problem. The core problem is your lack of consent, not bdsm.

 

[River]

I don't wish to hijack the thread, however I just have to say thank you, GalaGirl for sharing this very personal experience with us:



This insight really resonated with me.

I am not an experienced kink practitioner by any means, but under certain conditions I too can enter an altered state of consciousness, and on occasions have found myself "allowing" sexual things to happen to me that I wouldn't under normal circumstances.

So thank you. Your explanation will help me to explain this phenomenon to my partners a little better, which is something I've struggled to do thus far.

This may have already been mentioned in here (I've not read much of the thread, yet), but I'll mention it anyway. Please read up on dissociation in relation to trauma. When people "go away," this is generally what's going on: trauma associated dissociation.

 

[vinsanity0]

To the original point- I think that it's a tough situation. My partner and I have had people express that they thought our relationship was/is abusive. These aren't people who really understand BDSM and D/s at all, and didn't want to.

I'm rather of the opinion that if it's consensual, then most of the time you need to stay out of it unless it's hurting you, in which case you get to decide what boundaries of your own to enforce. I don't think that activities are bad in and of themselves, and I don't judge dynamics even if they aren't my cup of tea.

I think it's one thing to do a check in and see how your partner is feeling, or perceiving specific things. It's quite another to tell them you think their partner is abusive.

This I agree with. One of my wife's friends went so far as to tell my wife I was a sociopath for wanting to practice bdsm. Obviously they had no understanding of bdsm at all. Their "diagnosis" certainly didn't help matters.

 

[vinsanity0]

It makes perfect sense to me. As gala said, there can be serious consequences to kink, life of loss or limb being only two.

DingedHeart mentions a child finding these graphic texts and photographs. Who pays the price--emotionally, financially? The child who is exposed, through no fault of her own, to her own parent in a very graphic photograph pays the price emotionally. Who pays for the counseling? Who is there to help the child through that? The kink partner who left those words and images to be seen? The 'master' who is involved with the parent?

I know a woman involved in poly and kink, including things like breath play. Her behavior is so odd at times, completely weird for an adult woman, that I have often wondered if she's sustained some sort of brain damage from some of her activities. Her husband is paying the price by being the sole support and the one who's carrying the great majority of the keeping the household going. She seems incapable of doing much of anything other than trolling the internet for the next man. He's paying the price--not whatever kink partner caused the damage.


Gala mentioned other consequences. I've seen articles about people who have died in kink situations. Who pays for the funeral? Who supports the spouse or children left behind?

The question makes perfect sense.

What Gala mentioned is an extreme case. People dying is another extreme case. To jump to extreme cases like these is not reasonable IMO.

 

[GalaGirl]

I think it's one thing to do a check in and see how your partner is feeling, or perceiving specific things. It's quite another to tell them you think their partner is abusive.

What if you do really think that? You are are supposed to say nothing to your partner? You cannot ask them for reassurance that they are ok and that they vet carefully?

Between "nothing kink happening at all" extreme and "loss of life or limb" extreme there's a wide range of things in between. Somewhere in there is a threshold, a line. I think partners could talk about that and come to terms where the line may be for them.

A solo person operating a free agent doesn't have to answer to anyone but themselves. A partnered person, a family person? What they choose to do can and does affect their people.

https://www.thehotline.org/2017/04/06/healthy-bdsm-relationships/

One of my wife's friends went so far as to tell my wife I was a sociopath for wanting to practice bdsm

Plenty of healthy people practice BDSM. To me that is jumping to extreme conclusions. But there ARE unhealthy people in all walks of life, and there are risks that cannot be undone. So in their BDSM practice, a person has to figure out where their limit of tolerance lies for who they will kink with, what activities are on the table or not, when it will happen, where, etc.

This may have already been mentioned in here (I've not read much of the thread, yet), but I'll mention it anyway. Please read up on dissociation in relation to trauma. When people "go away," this is generally what's going on: trauma associated dissociation.

Yup. I like the "floaty" space, but for me to push the stimulus to the max so I go away? It is RARE. It's going into overload. Because I don't know what's going on. And it's pleasant to me to experience that when all is good and safe. Would be horrible if not.

Galagirl

 

[WhatHappened]

Other than keeping porn unprotected on a shared computer, I mostly disagree. My recollection is you weren't exactly a willing participant so I understand why you might exaggerate the problem. The core problem is your lack of consent, not bdsm.

The question, for which you asked for clarification, was not what the problem was, but who pays the price in the event of damage and harm. This related directly to the OP's question of when do you step in to voice concerns about a partner's kink with another partner.

It's possibly irrelevant to these questions what you personally think the core problem was in Dinged Heart's particular case. Furthermore, you are mistaken about core problems.

In one case I mentioned, the core problem was a child seeing very graphic words and photographs. Those photographs and words existed, and would have if all the adults involved consented, and damage resulted from activity consented to by those adults.

In the other case, all adults consented. The woman's behavior suggests that permanent, life-altering damage occurred and that the husband is paying the price, for the rest of his life. Not the kink partner who inflicted the damage.

These examples speak directly to the OP's question of when/if it is acceptable to express concerns. Dinged Heart is pointing out that it is acceptable to do so because the OP (or anyone with the same question) may well be the one paying the price if they don't speak up about the red flags and it goes wrong.

What Gala mentioned is an extreme case. People dying is another extreme case. To jump to extreme cases like these is not reasonable IMO.

I think it's quite reasonable to discuss the OP's question and the fact that extreme things do happen when people engage in extreme play should not be ignored. But the examples I added to Gala's examples are not as 'extreme' as actual loss of life or limb. But they still have deep and painful impact on the people in question AND on those around them in who knows how many ripples.

In short, the things we do affect other people. The things OP's partner does with her kink partner affect OP and may potentially leave him with a price to pay. Therefore, it is fair for him to voice concerns. Their activity is not isolated from his life.