No One Right Way but... Many Wrong Ways?

[Flikker]

Hello all! I've been lurking for a while and decided I would like some advice. So here's my intro and background to my question.

TL;DR: I keep seeing that there is no one way to be poly but I'm guessing there are MANY ways to do poly wrong. I was hoping you all could tell me if you see any red flags. Very long... I know... Thanks ahead of time.

My husband (who I will refer to as Roy) and I, both guys, have been together for 20 years and just so you know we have a certain... competitive nature to our relationship which is hard to put down on paper without sounding unhealthy. There's a certain amount of score keeping that happens. I still owe him two water balloons to the head but I'm not allowed to claim them until I can remember why he deserves them. That sort of thing. ALL in good fun.

This extends to "Greg". Almost the entire time we've been together we've had Greg. Greg is the mythical unicorn houseboy that is in GREAT shape, cooks, cleans, knows massage, is versatile, is available at a moments notice, etc. "I'm going out will you be okay?" "Sure, Greg is coming over. I'll be fine". Sometimes it is more "Well if you're going to be cranky then Greg and I are going to cuddle in the living room. When you stop being pissy you can come join us." In retrospect, I guess we've been "mythically poly" for a long time.

Cut to two years ago, I was headed to an LGBT Underwater Basket Weaving Convention (not sure yet if I want to give away too many real life details...). We were teasing each other and I said something like "You know, if you're going to keep picking on me... I'm headed to UBW and I'm sure, of the thousands of gay guys there, I can find someone to replace you. At the very least I can make sure I have a grand old time in the hotel hot tub without you". His response was something along the lines of "You can do whatever you want I trust you". Conversation was had and basically I was reassured that I could do whatever I wanted.

And I did... My hotel roommate and good friend, Chris, and I hit it off very well. No sex was had but a lot of naked hanky-panky was. More could have happened but I had interpreted Roy's Rules as "anything that happens in the hot tub at UBW stays in the hot tub at UBW" IE less than FULL permission to do anything AND Chris's Husband would have been upset by actual sex. As it is, I think Chris probably shouldn't have done what he did BUT I was trusting his interpretation of their relationship some of the "he shouldn't" is in retrospect.

When I got home I told Roy that hanky-panky happened and his first question was "So did you have sex?" I explained that I didn't think I was allowed, plus the situation with Chris's husband and so on. He told me I should have gone for it. He MEANT it that I could do ANYTHING I wanted.

Partially because of UBW and partially for other reasons I started seeing a therapist, who just so happened to be bi and poly, and we've talked about a LOT of things. Including Greg, Chris, Roy, etc. Short version is that I'm mildly depressed and have mild social anxiety but I'm doing a LOT better now (two years in). I also identify more as Demisexual BUT I'm told that often implies a certain amount of asexuality which I do not identify with. BTW: this probably explains Chris. Good friend, emotional bonds, hanky-panky is okay! One of the other things my therapist and I discussed is a lot of the poly terminology. Things like polycules, compersion, relationship orientation, ethical non-monogamy and so on and so forth.

So now we're back to present day... Only a dozen or so paragraphs in.

As I said about my mental health I'm doing a LOT better and part of that is because I'm on an anti-depressant. Now, I never had a RAGING libido but it has dropped that down to a bare minimum. It also has made it very easy to get "distracted" and lose my ability to perform and lastly while I had an occasional post-orgasm migraine before the meds I now get them almost every time I have an orgasm that is not from jerking off. (And even then sometimes). I am ABSOLUTELY working with my doctor on this but for now that's the lay of the land.

So one night post-sexy-time as I'm twitching in the dark with a migraine Roy asked if we should stop having sex because it was just hurting me. Which means a LOT to me but also feels very unfair because Roy has a fairly high libido. He understands that I need an emotional involvement with any outside partner but he would be more than happy to have someone else in bed with us for the sheer "geometric" possibilities and that this disconnect is a primary reason we haven't done anything poly-adjacent. We talked about a few possibilities but my take was that he was basically talking about having a romantic relationship with me but be allowed to play around to satisfy his libido. Reading that back it sounds selfish of him but in the moment it was entirely me centered. "If I'm physically hurting you, I can do these things and involve you in these ways". I also know that he knows that being Demi, I'm turned on by what turns on my partner so if he is being turned on then I'll be turned on and happy for him. IE compersion. He also works from home so he offered to keep it completely out of sight and I would simply know he was being satisfied. I told him "Head hurts. Brain full. Not the time to decide things."

So I've pondered and my list of things to talk about in the eventual conversation is as follows:

IF we are going to open up our relationship to outside players then...

1. (Biggest question, so first) Does this open the door to "naked play time" in general? As a VERY simple example, Roy can NOT give a massage to save his life. Am I allowed to go find that sort of thing? If I do and that leads to hanky panky or sex is that a problem for him? Are we assuming that I will only have sex with him involved (very likely anyways...) either only with him or with him and someone else?

2. Is anyone off limits? Friends? Co-Workers? Do either of us get Veto rights? Are there behaviors that are off limits? (I know some open couples that save kissing for themselves for example) Is there a quantity limit? No more than three play dates a week or something like that?

3. I now know that I'm not a shy introvert, I'm a mildly depressed, mildly socially-anxious ambivert. I need to socialize as part of treating that. Roy on the other hand is a more classic introvert. I have a social life. He doesn't (much). Especially if veto rights exist, who decides when/if a pal of mine goes from just-social to more?

4. Regarding hosting/location. Roy works from home and I don't. What does that mean for dates.

5. Safety and safe sex. Roy and I are fluid bonded but any dates obviously wouldn't be. Roy brought up the specific example of PrEP and condoms but in general what safety measures, both physically and sexually, need to exist.

6. Reporting in. Do we need to ever check in about dates? If so how and when?

7. Any other suggestions from the hive mind?

Now... I had considered that we're going on vacation next week and I'm thinking of bringing this up and having the chat as a sort of Christmas present. Something along the lines of "I know you haven't been exactly happy, and I want you to be happy, so lets work this out so can be happier again". Depending on the outcome of that, I'd also considered the possibility of cuddling up on the vacation couch, setting up a dating app profile and seeing if we could chat up someone also on vacation. Do enough chatting with new friend so as to get beyond my "stranger danger" aversion and "celebrate" the holidays. My thoughts are that if it doesn't completely work out that it hasn't "tainted" anything at home if only because, in theory, we will never see that person again.

Thoughts? Suggestions? You made it this far in reading my novel and for that I can only thank you.

Flikker

 

[GalaGirl]

Welcome.

Maybe you and Roy want to use the Opening Up worksheets to have this talk? As well as figure out what Open Model(s) you would practice?

They are not definitive, but maybe it can help you articulate some of the things you are trying to articulate?

Plus... can print and if you get tired, put a little tick mark and come back later to where you left off. That might make it easier to have this series of conversations. Don't try to have it all in one go. That would be my suggestion. It's ok to take your time. Some couples take years.

HTH!

Galagirl

 

[kdt26417]

Greetings Flikker,
Welcome to our forum. Please feel free to lurk, browse, etc.

I think you've pretty well got your bases covered, I wouldn't be too worried. Have your conversation and include the seven points you listed. There is a lot to talk about, so I suggest starting the conversation before you leave for your vacation. Be extra cautious about installing veto rights as those can lead to badly hurt feelings given the wrong circumstance. That doesn't mean you shouldn't talk about veto rights, just throwing up an extra caution flag there. You might also consider whether there will be any rules around texting. Like can I text Partner B when Roy and I are spending time together? How much can I text and under what circumstances? Are there other things (besides texting) that could interfere with our time? That's all I could think of besides the points you already listed.

If you're willing, keep us updated on your situation as it evolves, this way we can give you updated feedback and advice. But like I said, so far so good, I think you are planning ahead and that is wise.

Sincerely,
Kevin T., "official greeter"

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Welcome aboard!

 

[Magdlyn]

Hi Flikker, welcome!

You have thought this through pretty well. There are a lot of ways to go when opening up a relationship.

You already have this "houseboy" who is involved physically to some extent...

I'm not sure how 2 gay men, specifically you and Roy, define "sex." I'm a bi or pansexual woman, so I do not define sex as a male penis in a female vagina. And of course, you do not either. Maybe you define it as oral or anal penetration? And so kissing, making out, nipple play, handjobs are just this "naked hanky panky" you mention? I personally define sex to include "naked hanky panky," kissing, touching breasts or genitals, etc. Whether I'm with a cis woman or man, or a transperson or gender nonconforming person.

At any rate, the best way to go in polyamory, as opposed perhaps to swinging or mere "playpartners" where it's sex but "no feelings allowed;" is 2 or more adults agreeing to have feelings if they arise, and doing any kind of sex stuff they want! Including kissing, oral, anal, PIV (if it's a man and a woman, or transpeople who want to do that).

It's kind of ridiculous, in my opinion, for 2 long term partners who open, to tell each other, you have my consent to do sex activities ABC, but not DEF. It breaks the mood of the encounter, and people do slip up and go "too far," breaking agreements in the heat of the moment.

Of course, if you're very new to Opening up, you can create any "rules" you wish. Maybe you want to ease into it gradually. That's now how I'd do it, but whatever.

However, if you're going to draw a line between "naked hanky panky" and "sex," you'd better be quite clear exactly what activities fall under either category.

Now, having group sex between your partner, your houseboy, and/or any other man, is not necessarily a part of polyamory. Many poly people do not engage in group sex.

Safer sex is always a must.

And I'm sorry that you are having these migraines after an orgasm, due to your meds. When you say they do NOT happen after masturbation, do you mean self pleasure? Or can another person give you a hand job and make you cum, and you do not get a headache? Since I don't know what you mean by gay "sex," I don't know where the difference lies.

 

[Flikker]

You might also consider whether there will be any rules around texting. Like can I text Partner B when Roy and I are spending time together? How much can I text and under what circumstances? Are there other things (besides texting) that could interfere with our time?

Oddly(?) I don't think that's an issue that we need to worry about because we're already pretty good about focusing on the person in front of us. In other words, to ME at least that's a common courtesy thing regardless of whether the texter is a friend and the person I'm with is husband/partner or vice-versa.

You already have this "houseboy" who is involved physically to some extent...

Oh... to be clear he doesn't actually exist. We just teased each other with him. That said, he's served as a proxy for actual talk about poly issues in some small way at this beginning stage.

I'm not sure how 2 gay men, specifically you and Roy, define "sex." I'm a bi or pansexual woman, so I do not define sex as a male penis in a female vagina. And of course, you do not either. Maybe you define it as oral or anal penetration? And so kissing, making out, nipple play, handjobs are just this "naked hanky panky" you mention?

Exactly. Oral and Anal are sex. Anything else falls into the hanky panky area. Sorry for not being clear.

It's kind of ridiculous, in my opinion, for 2 long term partners who open, to tell each other, you have my consent to do sex activities ABC, but not DEF.

I assume the theory is that it has to do with "saving" something for only the primary partner. If all partners are equal then you are right it doesn't make much sense.

Now, having group sex between your partner, your houseboy, and/or any other man, is not necessarily a part of polyamory. Many poly people do not engage in group sex.

Good point. I guess I'm defining poly as "more than two people" but not necessarily always at the same time. For us, I think that's where we are headed. From "virtual" houseboy to "the two of us and a real someone else" to whatever lies beyond that.

And I'm sorry that you are having these migraines after an orgasm, due to your meds. When you say they do NOT happen after masturbation, do you mean self pleasure? Or can another person give you a hand job and make you cum, and you do not get a headache?

I'll be honest I don't know the answer to that but it could be interesting to find out. Generally I masturbate to orgasm alone but it is part of foreplay when with my husband. My assumption was that it is less taxing on the system as a whole but that penetrative sex resulted in the use of more muscles/resources/whatever and triggered something. Thinking about it more logically, if the "amount of effort" is the trigger than you are right having someone else give me a hand job should NOT trigger a migraine. Similarly, receiving oral sex with no movement on my part should also not trigger one (I'm normally more active... but "for science"...). Conversely, trying to find another intense physical activity might also result in triggering one. (Running on a treadmill beyond my normal ability???) Something to think about.

Thanks everyone!

 

[JaneQSmythe]

Oh... to be clear he doesn't actually exist. We just teased each other with him. That said, he's served as a proxy for actual talk about poly issues in some small way at this beginning stage.

Doh. Thanks for clarifying - I missed that the first time too. Time for a re-read.

 

[Magdlyn]

Greg is the mythical unicorn houseboy.

Thanks for clearing up the Greg stuff! I assumed he was real. Even though poly unicorns don't exist... I thought maybe you 2 got really lucky. Moving on...

Convention. "You can do whatever you want."

Chris... naked hanky-panky. More could have happened but I had interpreted Roy's Rules as "anything that happens in the hot tub stays in the hot tub" less than FULL permission to do anything. Chris's Husband would have been upset by sex... I was trusting his interpretation...

"So did you have sex?" I didn't think I was allowed...

Chris was in murky waters as regards his agreements with his husband (possibly breaking agreements, cheating). Many, if not most, ethically polyamorous folks won't have sex (penetrative or moreplay, making out, anything) with a person who is cheating on their partner/spouse. You might not so much "trust" Chris or other partner to decide if they are breaking agreements or not, and decide for your own boundaries, you won't engage in anything sexual unless you're sure it's completely fine with your partner's partner. You could get beat up or otherwise harassed in the future. People like to blame the new person, rather than blame their longer term partner, when agreements are broken.

2nd of all, I suggest you let go of the idea that your husband has the right to permit or allow you to do anything. Unless he is your Dom (as in D/s) he merely can consent, or not, to what you 2 decide is the correct way to be Open. So there won't be Roy's Rules. You take responsiblity for agreements too.

therapist, bi and poly

Good! Although I'm surprised you didn't discuss the idea of consent/negotiation as opposed to "permission," and the definition of what "sex" is, with the therapist.

Demisexual... implies a certain amount of asexuality which I do not identify with.

I had never heard of demisexuality being part of being on the asexual spectrum. I think demisexuality is very common, especially with women, who NEED to be careful who they fuck, because, especially if they like men, they have to be wary of rapists and people who would otherwise take advantage of them against their will. There needs to be trust.

Men often need to be seen as studs who can fuck anyone of their gender preference at the drop of a hat. But in actuality, many men do need a degree of comfort and trust before being able to enjoy sex (some men I've been with have trouble with getting fully erect or being able to orgasm the first couple times we have sex, despite having sought sex very enthusiastically.)

anti-depressant... libido... post-orgasm migraine...

...Roy asked if we should stop having sex because it was just hurting me...

He understands that I need an emotional involvement with any outside partner, but he would be happy to have someone else in bed...

What I hear you saying is (correct me if I've got it wrong), he suggested you 2 seek a unicorn for sexy fun times, not actual polyamory, where feelings are encouraged. So since you get migraines when you fuck or are fucked, and cum, the idea is you'd be involved in the moreplay stuff, but wouldn't fuck or be fucked by, Roy or the unicorn? You'd avoid orgasm completely during these 3ways, and just be pleased by watching and being involved, short of penetration acts or orgasm?

... having a romantic relationship with me, but be allowed to play around... if he is being turned on, then I'll be turned on

It doesn't actually follow that being demisexual means you're automatically compersive. But it seems you're thinking you'd be happy to see him being pleasured by another, in front of your eyes, in your bed? Even if you're avoiding certain things they are doing for health reasons? You don't think you'd be envious?

... offered to keep it out of sight.

OK, or that. As I said, if he's the one who has the higher libido, he certainly could seek sexual play-partners on his own, and do the deeds privately (at the other guy's house, or at your house when you're at work). This would of course be also up to the other guy. Some might be OK with a 3way. Others might avoid 3ways for various excellent reasons (to avoid a suddenly jealous other partner beating them up, for example).

...example, Roy can NOT give a massage... Am I allowed to go find that? If that leads to... sex, is that a problem? Are we assuming that I will only have sex with him involved... or with him and someone else?

What do you want? A massage or a "happy ending" massage? Won't that give you a headache?

Decide what you want first, then ask him what he wants. Negotiate a compromise. Take your time. It might take months. And it kinda should take a while, to avoid misunderstanding, fucking or jerking off cheaters, catching a STD, deciding if there will only be 3ways sought (reducing your dating pool), deciding if hands only is good enough for one or both of you (and potential partners' desires come into this) or must there be penetration and oral, etc.

anyone off limits?

It is very helpful and common to have a "messy persons" list. Your coworkers or his coworkers or boss, relatives, best friends, drug addicts, psycho hose beasts...

behaviors... off limits?

This isn't an site for any Open relationship. This is a site for polyamory. So therefore it's not common here for limiting kissing or various sex acts, cuddling, romantic non-sexual dates or acts, etc. So you won't get advice about "saving certain acts for the primary" unless someone is practicing strict hierarchical polyamory. Which is very difficult to achieve, or maintain.

...quantity limit?

Many polyfolks, especially those already living with a partner, do politely and lovingly schedule dates so that everyone feels their needs and desires are being reasonably met. If you don't have kids, you might feel you have enough time/energy to date others 3 days a week. But if you and Roy are dating separately, don't count on being able to find a date/playpartner/lover who is always available when Roy is with someone else. Prepare to have nights to yourself sometimes. I personally love nights to myself. Others struggle with it, especially at first.

... if veto rights exist, who decides... goes from just-social to more?

Vetoes are NOT recommended. They are a couple-centric entitlement concept which isn't fair to the newer partners you guys start seeing. Your prospective new mates are full people. The relationship you have with a new someone, or that Roy has with his new someone, has rights. They can't be treated like disposable sex toys.

If you're seeing someone, you and this new guy decide when it goes from platonic to sexual. Roy and whoever he is seeing decide when they go from just friends to sex partners. And if you're both attempting to date/fuck the same guy, it's up to all 3 of you... maybe new guy ends up only attracted to one of you, not both. Or maybe Roy loses interest in new guy, but you don't... then what? Be prepared for NRE. Some of the changes will be fun. But some could be costly.

hosting/location

Doesn't matter. Roy could fuck someone while you were in another part of the house, otherwise occupied. You and Roy could have a 3some after you get home from work, or on your days off. You could have moreplay dates with someone who doesn't fancy Roy, at home, at his place, at a hotel, etc. Either of you could go on a non-sexual date whenever. Roy could do it taking a break from his work at home, or go out to dinner or a show or bike ride or whatever he likes, with your consent, either when you're on a date, seeing platonic friends or family, doing hobbies, going to the gym, away visiting family or friends, etc., etc.

Do we need to ever check in about dates?

There are options. Generally you need to decide how much detail you want to share about dates if you're dating separately. Even if you're both seeing the same guy, unless all the sex is 3ways every time, all 3 of you need to decide how many details you're OK with the other partners knowing about the sex or other intimacies (like your partner's life history, issues, whatever).

Some dyads don't need to know right away if their partner has an attraction or crush. Some don't need to know before sex occurs. Some want to know ahead of time. You talk it over and decide. And renegotiate openly if you change your minds once things get going.

vacation... "I know you haven't been happy, and I want you to be happy..."
dating app... if it doesn't work out, it hasn't "tainted" anything at home...

What you're suggesting here is some casual sex. It's not polyamory, but can still be fun or a disaster depending on expectations and how the other person turns out to be.

It could still "taint things at home," if one of you loves it (a 3way ) and one is not so into it as he thought he'd be.

Good luck. A real guy isn't a perfect mythical Greg.

 

[Flikker]

Oops... I posted an update here instead of in this thread. My apologies for confusing anyone.

Chris was in murky waters as regards his agreements with his husband (possibly breaking agreements, cheating).

Yeah, I'll need to be more aggressively careful about that. It could have gone down BAD but luckily two years later we've both talked about it and we agree we lucked out.

2nd of all, I suggest you let go of the idea that your husband has the right to permit or allow you to do anything.

And...

Good! Although I'm surprised you didn't discuss the idea of consent/negotiation as opposed to "permission," and the definition of what "sex" is, with the therapist.

I may be using a loaded word when I say permission or rules or permit. The intent is something along the lines of "I am okay with this. You have permission to do this." Using foreplay as an example, phrasing something as "Yes, you have permission to unzip my pants" as opposed to "I consent to you unzipping my pants". Not so much as in a D/s type of arrangement but more this is the arrangement we have worked out and under that arrangement, that we both consented too, this is the behavior that is permitted to occur without violating the agreement.

As to the definition of sex, we VERY briefly talked about but, as a Cis Gay Male talking to a Cis Bi Female, we agreed that the practical implications would vary. (Touched on in my update thread terms section.)

I had never heard of demisexuality being part of being on the asexual spectrum. I think demisexuality is very common, especially with women

I think the theory, as I remember it, was that forming emotional connections becomes more important than physical connections to some demis and thus on that spectrum. I have no outside "scientific sources" but that's roughly how it was explained to me anyways.

What I hear you saying is (correct me if I've got it wrong), he suggested you 2 seek a unicorn for sexy fun times, not actual polyamory, where feelings are encouraged. So since you get migraines when you fuck or are fucked, and cum, the idea is you'd be involved in the moreplay stuff, but wouldn't fuck or be fucked by, Roy or the unicorn? You'd avoid orgasm completely during these 3ways, and just be pleased by watching and being involved, short of penetration acts or orgasm?

That was the original plan. I could either be in the room or not, involved to any of a number of varying degrees, and so on depending on the moment. That said, to paraphrase someone, and as mentioned in my update thread, plans do not survive their first encounters with the battle field.

It doesn't actually follow that being demisexual means you're automatically compersive. <snip> You don't think you'd be envious?

I don't think the two are automatically tied but I do think I possess both of those qualities. So if he's happy that makes me happy and I'm not going to be envious. Well... not to an unhealthy extent. If a friend wins an all expense paid vacation are you going to be a tiny bit jealous? Sure. That's human. That's why you keep communication open.

What do you want? A massage or a "happy ending" massage? Won't that give you a headache?

Either works for me. I haven't found hand jobs or jerking off to have the level of headache/migraine that "full" sex does. Blow jobs also don't seem to have the same impact. It seems like the level of effort matters. Being the top/insertive partner is worse for side effects. Standing is worse for side effects. With a partner is worse for side effects. So worst case is topping/insertive while standing (say on the side of the bed). Least impact is solo jerking off laying down in bed.

Decide what you want first, then ask him what he wants. Negotiate a compromise. Take your time. It might take months.

We've covered as much as we can in one week. The only thing so far SET in STONE is communication must remain open. Mistakes might happen but that's why the communication.

It is very helpful and common to have a "messy persons" list. Your coworkers or his coworkers or boss, relatives, best friends, drug addicts, psycho hose beasts...

Yup. I have my "Underwater Basket Weaving Society" that is, as a rule, off limits because for ME they are closer to Family than to general public and even that's open to negotiation on a case by case basis.

This isn't an site for any Open relationship. This is a site for polyamory. So therefore it's not common here for limiting kissing or various sex acts, cuddling, romantic non-sexual dates or acts, etc. So you won't get advice about "saving certain acts for the primary" unless someone is practicing strict hierarchical polyamory. Which is very difficult to achieve, or maintain.

Before talking with Roy I didn't know what his comfort levels/wants and wishes were. So those were on the table as acceptable to me (if not what I thought was absolutely best) because "compromise". Since then we've moved on to more "pure" poly expectations. That dating, solo or coupled, will happen. Long term relationships outside the original will happen. How will we introduce new partners to family or friends and so on. But again, I didn't know if he'd want the full-Poly thing before talking to him.

Many polyfolks, especially those already living with a partner, do politely and lovingly schedule dates <snip> Prepare to have nights to yourself sometimes. I personally love nights to myself. Others struggle with it, especially at first.

Roy works from home, I LOVE nights to myself. As much as I love him he is ALWAYS there.

Vetoes are NOT recommended. They are a couple-centric entitlement concept which isn't fair to the newer partners you guys start seeing. Your prospective new mates are full people. The relationship you have with a new someone, or that Roy has with his new someone, has rights. They can't be treated like disposable sex toys.

At this point the veto is pretty much "scheduling conflict" or "me conflict". IE: You can't do this because you already agreed to do this other thing OR like in the case of a Poly V where the Hinge is bisexual but their partners are not. If the Hinge is seeing one Male and one Female there isn't (probably) ever going to be a situation where all three play together. If I'm simply not attracted to the person Roy can decide to do something on his own or not.

If you're seeing someone, you and this new guy decide when it goes from platonic to sexual. <lots snipped> There are options. Generally you need to decide how much detail you want to share about dates if you're dating separately. Even if you're both seeing the same guy, unless all the sex is 3ways every time, all 3 of you need to decide how many details you're OK with the other partners knowing about the sex or other intimacies (like your partner's life history, issues, whatever).

Roy and I have agreed at this point information/communication is the important part. I and New Friend decide by ourselves to become sexual BUT I will tell Roy that this shift has happened even though details aren't required. This is all in the realm of "I'm going to be late coming home because I'm stopping at the grocery store" as opposed to just showing up two hours late with lots of food and not telling where I've been.

At this point the only "hard" vetoes is No Basket Weavers without LOTS of communication between Roy and I. I don't want to foul up a VERY important Chosen Family of mine. A softer veto also exists on what/who I (or Roy for himself) will do in a three-way where both of us are involved. (IE... sorry I'm not into X with Y) Lastly, and lightest, communication about high level details (dates, is sex happening, etc) but mostly from scheduling factor with a dash of "I would like to know what's going on in your life" kind of way or "don't walk in on..." that sort of thing.

What you're suggesting here is some casual sex. It's not polyamory, but can still be fun or a disaster depending on expectations and how the other person turns out to be. It could still "taint things at home," if one of you loves it (a 3way ) and one is not so into it as he thought he'd be.

I get that Open is not Poly but our long term goals are Poly. Not to mention I don't know of any other type of place to ask for advice on "more than two". For us casual sex and dating are on the road to something more. I don't remember if I said it above or in my other followup: I feel like you kinda can't be poly if you don't have more than two people. Kinda... Sorta... So dating comes first (and everything that comes with that these days) and then we tweak and adjust as we go along.

Good luck. A real guy isn't a perfect mythical Greg.

Sigh... But wouldn't it be nice if they were. At least some of them. Too much perfect might be annoying too.

Thanks!