Poly where wife and I would not be principal partners
- Thread starter George
- Start date
What do you mean by "principal partners"? Do you mean primaries, as in a hierarchy arrangement?
Not everyone has primaries. Not everyone does hierarchy. For those who do hierarchy, not everyone's spouse is their primary.
I personally try very hard to avoid hierarchy. In my life, my partners are important to me for different reasons, but not by different amounts of importance. I'm married to a man who is monogamous and very much avoids spending time with any other humans, me included. I have a long-term committed partner, who I've been with for over three years, who interacts with me more in any given week than my husband does.
I don't consider either of them my primary, because I don't do a primary-secondary model. However, if someone were to force me to name a primary partner, it would be my boyfriend, not my husband. (Both of them know this. I think my husband isn't necessarily happy about it, but he understands that his choice not to interact with me or give me any attention is a huge problem for me, and since he refuses to try to change that, he accepts the way things are. It's also maybe worth noting that my seeing other people was his idea in the first place.)
Not everyone has primaries. Not everyone does hierarchy. For those who do hierarchy, not everyone's spouse is their primary.
I personally try very hard to avoid hierarchy. In my life, my partners are important to me for different reasons, but not by different amounts of importance. I'm married to a man who is monogamous and very much avoids spending time with any other humans, me included. I have a long-term committed partner, who I've been with for over three years, who interacts with me more in any given week than my husband does.
I don't consider either of them my primary, because I don't do a primary-secondary model. However, if someone were to force me to name a primary partner, it would be my boyfriend, not my husband. (Both of them know this. I think my husband isn't necessarily happy about it, but he understands that his choice not to interact with me or give me any attention is a huge problem for me, and since he refuses to try to change that, he accepts the way things are. It's also maybe worth noting that my seeing other people was his idea in the first place.)
I too approach this from a fairly non-hierarchical point of view - though I have many of the "relationship escalator" trappings (house, kid, shared finances, shared life goals) with my partner Knight, I probably have more romantic intensity with my partner Artist most days, certainly more sexual intensity, and on some levels I feel like he understands me better. Doesn't make *either* of them primary.
Instead of worrying about what makes a partner "primary" or "secondary", "serious" or "casual", spend some time thinking about what you want to share with your wife and what you might want to share with another partner. Here's a useful tool to consider:
http://openrelationshipuniversity.com/the-relationship-smorgasbord/
Instead of worrying about what makes a partner "primary" or "secondary", "serious" or "casual", spend some time thinking about what you want to share with your wife and what you might want to share with another partner. Here's a useful tool to consider:
http://openrelationshipuniversity.com/the-relationship-smorgasbord/
Hello George,
Hierarchies are more common for married couples just starting out in open/polyamory. The idea of poly is still scary and new, and for some people it feels like it may pose a threat to the marriage. So, they decide that, "My spouse will be my primary partner, all others will be secondary and of lower importance/priority." Sort of a way of saying the marriage comes first. This often comes with veto power for the two spouses. If one spouse feels threatened for any reason by the other spouse's secondary, the one spouse may veto that secondary and have the other spouse break up with that secondary no questions asked. The marriage comes first.
But sometimes when a married couple has been poly for awhile, they realize that they do not want their secondaries to be treated as second-class citizens, they want their secondaries to be equal to the spouses; that is, they want everybody to be a primary partner. This perhaps is the model you are considering? No primary (principal) partners, no secondary partners, everyone is on the same level? or are you considering a reverse model, where the spouses are secondary and all other partners are primary? That would certainly be unusual but I suppose you could do it.
In most cases, a nonhierarchical system is better, but there are cases where a hierarchy is useful. Everyone is different, you have to figure out what works best for you. Anyway those are my thoughts.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
Hierarchies are more common for married couples just starting out in open/polyamory. The idea of poly is still scary and new, and for some people it feels like it may pose a threat to the marriage. So, they decide that, "My spouse will be my primary partner, all others will be secondary and of lower importance/priority." Sort of a way of saying the marriage comes first. This often comes with veto power for the two spouses. If one spouse feels threatened for any reason by the other spouse's secondary, the one spouse may veto that secondary and have the other spouse break up with that secondary no questions asked. The marriage comes first.
But sometimes when a married couple has been poly for awhile, they realize that they do not want their secondaries to be treated as second-class citizens, they want their secondaries to be equal to the spouses; that is, they want everybody to be a primary partner. This perhaps is the model you are considering? No primary (principal) partners, no secondary partners, everyone is on the same level? or are you considering a reverse model, where the spouses are secondary and all other partners are primary? That would certainly be unusual but I suppose you could do it.
In most cases, a nonhierarchical system is better, but there are cases where a hierarchy is useful. Everyone is different, you have to figure out what works best for you. Anyway those are my thoughts.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
JaneQSmythe
Well-known member
I have a husband and a boyfriend, both of whom live with me. I am the primary financial provider. No kids.
I would say that they are in a co-primary role at this point. MrS is my husband of 22 years, he and I are emotionally and intellectually, but not particularly sexually, intimate. Dude is my boyfriend of 8 years, he is my principal sexual partner.
If either of them decided that this situation no longer works for them (i.e. they can no longer live with each other/me) we do have informal break-up agreements (which are different for each).
I would say that they are in a co-primary role at this point. MrS is my husband of 22 years, he and I are emotionally and intellectually, but not particularly sexually, intimate. Dude is my boyfriend of 8 years, he is my principal sexual partner.
If either of them decided that this situation no longer works for them (i.e. they can no longer live with each other/me) we do have informal break-up agreements (which are different for each).
I think the word heirarchy is not useful. People are equal in my life. Our 3 kids (11,14,17) alone will have my unconditional love.
Love relationships in any potential poly situation can never be symmetrical.
So the question could be posed as: what poly possibilities with my wife might be good?
1) Me under my own (nearby) roof and my wife and kids in the matrimonial home?
This seems the most likely. However, there are a lot of nuances which could define things in this, e.g., any women I meet would have to accept that I have the monumental task of raising three kids with my wife. Plus we also work together.
2) Me under the matrimonial roof?
Not a likely good option for us any time soon (see below).
Poly was more her idea originally. Now she seems NOT up for the idea of poly while under the same roof.
The fact that I went on a date was devastating for her and we have backed out for now. We are not in a hurry to do anything too soon, although I'll never get over the fact that I know monogamy with me was to her a compromise and NOT her first choice. Now she claims/believes monogamy with me is her true wish. It's not that I think she's lying, just that I think her little taste of it was painful and now maybe seems not worth it.
But over time, I think her heart and mind will quite likely shift and then I'll be feeling undervalued and like an unwanted compromise. I already kind of do, as I'm not trusting her mono intentions are the real deal.
We're on the same page as far as keeping the matrimonial home for the kids.
BTW, it feels awful that I presented myself to my date (with whom I had a very nice connection) as available, only to have to say, "Sorry, I wasn't lying, but things are not ready as I thought." Anyway, that is an aside at this point, as I won't be dating unless my situation is super-solid, more likely if I get my own place, which won't happen soon, if ever.
Has anyone out there had long term successful poly with a matrimonial home/kids /spouse equation?
Love relationships in any potential poly situation can never be symmetrical.
So the question could be posed as: what poly possibilities with my wife might be good?
1) Me under my own (nearby) roof and my wife and kids in the matrimonial home?
This seems the most likely. However, there are a lot of nuances which could define things in this, e.g., any women I meet would have to accept that I have the monumental task of raising three kids with my wife. Plus we also work together.
2) Me under the matrimonial roof?
Not a likely good option for us any time soon (see below).
Poly was more her idea originally. Now she seems NOT up for the idea of poly while under the same roof.
The fact that I went on a date was devastating for her and we have backed out for now. We are not in a hurry to do anything too soon, although I'll never get over the fact that I know monogamy with me was to her a compromise and NOT her first choice. Now she claims/believes monogamy with me is her true wish. It's not that I think she's lying, just that I think her little taste of it was painful and now maybe seems not worth it.
But over time, I think her heart and mind will quite likely shift and then I'll be feeling undervalued and like an unwanted compromise. I already kind of do, as I'm not trusting her mono intentions are the real deal.
We're on the same page as far as keeping the matrimonial home for the kids.
BTW, it feels awful that I presented myself to my date (with whom I had a very nice connection) as available, only to have to say, "Sorry, I wasn't lying, but things are not ready as I thought." Anyway, that is an aside at this point, as I won't be dating unless my situation is super-solid, more likely if I get my own place, which won't happen soon, if ever.
Has anyone out there had long term successful poly with a matrimonial home/kids /spouse equation?
Hierarchy is not a useful word here to me, although I appreciate how it might factor in for some. For me, all poly relationship possibilities could only be some form of ASYMMETRY between the parties involved. (Everyone matters EQUALLY, of course).
One question is, are there any long-term poly success stories involving co-parents of children in a matrimonial home, either with both parents living in that home or under separate roofs?
One question is, are there any long-term poly success stories involving co-parents of children in a matrimonial home, either with both parents living in that home or under separate roofs?
WhatHappened
Active member
Can you explain more clearly? Are you asking if people have successfully co-parented while keeping kids in the marital home, either with one or both parents living there, while said parents are married to each other, but seeing other people? I'm just trying to understand what you're asking.
vinsanity0
Active member
I dated a woman who had an interesting arrangement with her ex. They had children similar in age to yours. They kept the one home for the kids. They would take turns staying there. When she wasn't there she stayed at a boyfriend's house, where she had her own room. Since I had no privacy where I was staying I would usually meet her at her boyfriend's place.
Granted, in this example they were divorced, but the same arrangements would work for a poly couple.
Granted, in this example they were divorced, but the same arrangements would work for a poly couple.
Dagferi
Well-known member
I have 2 kids who are 12 and 16 now. They were 5 and 9 when things got serious with Murf and I.
The first 6 months of dating Murf I only saw him if Butch was available to be home with them. When I knew he was interested in the long haul and Butch was ok with it Murfs presence in their life was slowly increased. They then started traveling with me between the homes I share with each of my husbands. As they have grown and become more independent they stay home more. Mainly due to their social life revolves around gaming and our home.
Currently I spilt my time between the homes I share with each of my husbands. It works out to be 50/50. Of course when something or someone is going through something that requires more attention that is where I am.
The first 6 months of dating Murf I only saw him if Butch was available to be home with them. When I knew he was interested in the long haul and Butch was ok with it Murfs presence in their life was slowly increased. They then started traveling with me between the homes I share with each of my husbands. As they have grown and become more independent they stay home more. Mainly due to their social life revolves around gaming and our home.
Currently I spilt my time between the homes I share with each of my husbands. It works out to be 50/50. Of course when something or someone is going through something that requires more attention that is where I am.
Asymmetry meaning, in this case, that my wife and another woman, while of absolutely equal importance to me, would have much different types of relationships with me and very different roles in my life.
Asymmetrical means equal but not identical. All poly relationships would have to be somewhat asymmetrical, given that every individual is unique. But when there is an already long history, the situation would be inherently more asymmetric.
Some situations would be more symmetric than mine. My wife and I have already spent 20 years together, working on our careers, buying a house, and raising kids into the teen years.
If I had a new lover, both relationships might be sexual, both might be long-term, just asymmetric.
I'm asking for details of actual examples of long-term success stories. Are there arrangements that have included kids, a matrimonial home, co-parents who are also spouses, still romantically involved, but poly?
Could someone give examples, details?
Is this general category rare, problematic?
How many years have they managed?
Ages of kids?
Etc.
Am I dreaming an unlikely dream?
That is an interesting variation in how they dealt with the matrimonial home. They were divorced, but not poly. This is a testament to their flexibility in sharing their equity and assets.
In Summary:
This summarizes what I've been trying to get at:
My wife and I have already spent 20 years, working in a career together, buying a house, and raising kids into the teen years. She's the mom.
If I had a new lover both relationships might be sexual, both might be long term but quite different - I refer to that asymmetric - as I would regard them as equals (non hierarchical poly)
I'm asking for details of succesful actual examples any of long term arrangements that have included kids + a matrimonial home involving co-parents who are also spouses/lovers - but poly?
Could someone give Examples? details?
Is this general category rare? problematic?
how many years have they managed?
ages of kids?
etc..
Am I dreaming an unlikely dream?
This summarizes what I've been trying to get at:
My wife and I have already spent 20 years, working in a career together, buying a house, and raising kids into the teen years. She's the mom.
If I had a new lover both relationships might be sexual, both might be long term but quite different - I refer to that asymmetric - as I would regard them as equals (non hierarchical poly)
I'm asking for details of succesful actual examples any of long term arrangements that have included kids + a matrimonial home involving co-parents who are also spouses/lovers - but poly?
Could someone give Examples? details?
Is this general category rare? problematic?
how many years have they managed?
ages of kids?
etc..
Am I dreaming an unlikely dream?
vinsanity0
Active member
They were/are both poly. That is the main reason for their arrangement. This way they could share equally in child care while still pursuing other relationships, without involving their children too much.
Hello Dagferi,
Thank you for sharing.
At the time you became intimate with Murf, had you already been poly for a while with Butch?
It sounds like you took it slow until Murf had become family. Is that accurate?
Is Butch the father of the two children? Is Butch also mono?
Cheers,
George
SlowPoly
Active member
I guess I’ve been in this sort of arrangement for (depending on how you count) 4-10 years. It’s boring, busy, fulfilling — we have all the standard family stuff, and not much extra for being poly.
Woof and I had been together ~15 years with three kids when we decided to be actively poly (philosophically we were both poly for a while). We’d been together ~20 years when we divorced on principle. (So the home was technically no longer a “matrimonial home” — I’m not actually sure what you mean with this specific term.) Our three kids were (as a group) not quite as old as yours, but they didn’t notice the divorce. I was still spending most of my time in our shared home, and they knew I was at Mitch’s most of the time I wasn’t there. We told them about the divorce months later. No biggie.
Anyway, about five years on, I now live more days of the week with Mitch and our 4yo. My kids with Woof are now 14-19. The 4yo and I spend a couple of days and nights a week in our shared home with Woof and the teens. Mitch and Woof are free to explore other relationships, as am I, but we don’t have a lot of time or inclination to do so.
Things are only as problematic as the individuals involved, and the dynamics among them. So, yeah, we’re not perfect, and there are disagreements and bad scripts. But mostly we are all living the life we want to live, given the choices we’ve made and the options we see as realistic, going forward.
You can search my intro post, divorce post, and blog, but that’s the summary. The kids are fine and growing. The grown-ups are fine and aging. We all state occasionally that we have been very lucky in how our lives have gone.
Families come in all shapes and mixed-up combinations these days. What we have looks not that different from anyone else’s day-to-day family life.
Where I see a major difference in your situation is that your wife isn’t embracing poly right now. Also, you don’t seem too sure it’s a real possibility even if/when she becomes enthusiastic about it.
Besides seeking support here, I recommend you do some reading (my favorite source is morethantwo.com) and get a better idea of the many ways people do poly, and the many known issues you will want to address hypothetically and practically as you go forward.
Keep a slow pace, and consider many possible situations and responses - don’t jump to conclusions about ideal living arrangements enabling a particular lifestyle.
Work out what you’re each looking for, and if your goals diverge, focus on building a separate co-parenting plan before you embark on your new, separate lives. If your goals remain complementary (or return to complementary) plan for yourselves and your kids, and try to remain flexible for the needs of the unknown others who may come into your lives later.
Good luck!
Dagferi
Well-known member
I had dated here and there two years before I met Murf, nothing long term, and I wasn't necessarily searching hard for another partner either. I have always approached dating as: if someone comes along wonderful. If not, that's okay.
I introduced my children to the equation slowly. Things between Murf and me progressed really quickly emotionally. Both of my husbands are mono.
Butch is the father of my children. I would have had children with Murf too. My tubal ligation failed and I became pregnant. But my youngest child was a rough pregnancy where both of us almost died. I would have gone forward if Murf wanted me to, for it would have been his only chance to have children. He decided he needed me more and my children needed their mother. He treats my sons as if they are his own.
You'll see as you read here and at morethantwo.com, that this is a common ocurrence with poly newbies. The instigator can enjoy her own attraction to others, and contemplate dates, sex, relationships, but when her long-term partner or spouse goes on a date and/or has sex, and is full of infatuation, she gets very upset. (This happened to me, in fact, with my ex h when we first Opened.)
Despite being attracted to others, it can still feel very threatening when one's long-term partner is attracted to another. One gets jealous, envious, insecure. One feels displaced.
However, it's not the end of the world, just the end of the old relationship with one's long term partner, and the beginning of a new one (with a new shape). These feelings can be worked through though. Many people work through it, and with practice and reassurance, go on to be in poly relationships with the original partner and their others.
If she really wants to have an Open relationship with you, and you two really want to stay together, while honoring your poly tendencies, it can be done. It doesn't all have to come to a screaming halt because you went on one date. Some formerly mono couples take a good year or two or three of educating themselves before actually involving others.
This happens sometimes. I even had it happen to me with an experienced poly man. He had 2 wives, basically. One he'd been with 20 years, one he'd been with 7 years. One was fine with him meeting a third woman. He thought the newer wife was onboard too. She was a little concerned, but he though she'd come around. So he got on dating sites and approached me. After he had three dates with me, this woman said, no, no more partners. And he assented to her wish/insecurity. And this was an established V, and they lived in an intentional community for poly families! So I'd thought he knew what he was doing.
A separate apartment is one way to meet other lovers. Or you can go to their place, if they can host. I can understand not wanting to bring a new lover around the kids, at least for a while. Many poly relationships don't work out (because dating is hard and it's difficult often to find a good match that has staying power), so you don't want these new good friends to come and go in young children's lives.
You can search this board for any term, poly and kids, or children, for example. Opening up. Jealousy. NRE (new relationship energy).