JaneQSmythe
Well-known member
FWIW, this would not necessarily be an "of course" in all polycules/social circles...some "polyborg collectives" would find this down-right convenient (a "natural" quad)!
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Feeling All the Feels
- Thread starter MsEmotional
- Start date
FWIW, this would not necessarily be an "of course" in all polycules/social circles...some "polyborg collectives" would find this down-right convenient (a "natural" quad)!
MsEmotional
Member
For sure! I can see the appeal in some ways, but we both were in agreement that too many connections is a recipe for disaster.
MsEmotional
Member
I actually feel super awkward about it now. We haven’t talked in over a week or so. I don’t know what to talk about anymore now that my anonymity is gone. I feel a little guilty, but I also .....just don’t have anything to say? He was the one directing most of our chatting before and so I don’t have natural conversation-starters. It wouldn’t be a big deal except that now I’m worried that if we don’t all get along there will be some kind of tension amongst all the relationships.
MsEmotional
Member
I feel so stupid
I’m hoping that this is temporary insecurity.
I have been working with my therapist on communicating with Whiskers about my feelings of vulnerability/anxiety/insecurity. She said that really the only way to not feel the anxiety that I am feeling is to be brave and express those feelings, ask him questions about how he is feeling in the relationship, etc. My basic opener, planned out with my therapist, was, “Something that is really important to me in relationships is expressing and sharing vulnerablity. I have been noticing that in this relationship there is something that holds me back from feeling comfortable being vulenerable with you and I’m not sure what to make of that. I was wondering what you think about that and how comfortable you feel being vulnerable with me.”
Basically the same thing happened as when I talked to him about communication in sex. I nervously and awkwardly brought it up, he seemed to be processing it for a few min, and asked some follow up questions about what I meant by vulnerability. He asked for an example. I said it was hard to give an example but that I am used to my partners expressing worries or concerns to me and that I’m wondering if he feels safe doing that with me. He still seemed confused so I explained that I feel like I still have first date jitters with him and After 6 months I am wanting to not feel nervous like that anymore and trying to figure out why I don’t feel that level of comfort with him yet.....then I babbled more, saying “So I’m just wondering what you think about that,” and random other fillers. He looked pressured to say something but still very uncertain and confused. So I said I didn’t mean to spring this on him and let’s talk about it later.
Ugh. I just feel like such a fuck-up. Why did I take my therapist’s advice to talk to him about these nebulous “feelings” with no action plan in place for what I am asking of him? Why didn’t I just let the date end on a good note? I feel so stupid. Now he is just going to be walking on eggshells trying to figure out how to navigate my stupid emotions.
And I’m mad at myself too because I had felt like things were actually going well. Last week he referred to me as his “girlfriend” for the first time. And when we were having sex today he said he loved me (in a Freudian slip kind of way — pretty sure he meant that he loved fucking me). Now I go and be all confusing. But really what am I supposed to do? I only get to see him maybe once a month — I can’t pick the perfect time to bring up the uncomfortable topics.
This is so embarrassing. When I asked him if we could talk and said I was nervous, he even said, “I can tell you for sure that it is not going to be nearly as big of a deal as you are thinking.” And holy fuck, it WAS. It was just as bad as I had feared —I knew it was just going to be confusing to him and I was going to just make a fool of myself and I did. Fuck.
I’m hoping that this is temporary insecurity.
I have been working with my therapist on communicating with Whiskers about my feelings of vulnerability/anxiety/insecurity. She said that really the only way to not feel the anxiety that I am feeling is to be brave and express those feelings, ask him questions about how he is feeling in the relationship, etc. My basic opener, planned out with my therapist, was, “Something that is really important to me in relationships is expressing and sharing vulnerablity. I have been noticing that in this relationship there is something that holds me back from feeling comfortable being vulenerable with you and I’m not sure what to make of that. I was wondering what you think about that and how comfortable you feel being vulnerable with me.”
Basically the same thing happened as when I talked to him about communication in sex. I nervously and awkwardly brought it up, he seemed to be processing it for a few min, and asked some follow up questions about what I meant by vulnerability. He asked for an example. I said it was hard to give an example but that I am used to my partners expressing worries or concerns to me and that I’m wondering if he feels safe doing that with me. He still seemed confused so I explained that I feel like I still have first date jitters with him and After 6 months I am wanting to not feel nervous like that anymore and trying to figure out why I don’t feel that level of comfort with him yet.....then I babbled more, saying “So I’m just wondering what you think about that,” and random other fillers. He looked pressured to say something but still very uncertain and confused. So I said I didn’t mean to spring this on him and let’s talk about it later.
Ugh. I just feel like such a fuck-up. Why did I take my therapist’s advice to talk to him about these nebulous “feelings” with no action plan in place for what I am asking of him? Why didn’t I just let the date end on a good note? I feel so stupid. Now he is just going to be walking on eggshells trying to figure out how to navigate my stupid emotions.
And I’m mad at myself too because I had felt like things were actually going well. Last week he referred to me as his “girlfriend” for the first time. And when we were having sex today he said he loved me (in a Freudian slip kind of way — pretty sure he meant that he loved fucking me). Now I go and be all confusing. But really what am I supposed to do? I only get to see him maybe once a month — I can’t pick the perfect time to bring up the uncomfortable topics.
This is so embarrassing. When I asked him if we could talk and said I was nervous, he even said, “I can tell you for sure that it is not going to be nearly as big of a deal as you are thinking.” And holy fuck, it WAS. It was just as bad as I had feared —I knew it was just going to be confusing to him and I was going to just make a fool of myself and I did. Fuck.
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FallenAngelina
Well-known member
I just want to mention that there are many fruitful ways to work with anxiety in relationships that do not involve being brave and expressing those feelings to the partner. Our anxieties usually have to do with pre-existing fears that the partner, for whatever mysterious or not so mysterious reasons, is able to somehow touch. It's the experience of vulnerability: our partner somehow has access to parts of ourselves that we're not confident about. My experience is that expressing this insecurity once or twice to a partner is sufficient for good communication's sake. Beyond that, the only person who can make anxiety shift is ourselves. It sounds like Whiskers felt pressured and confused because he was. You were asking him to help you with tender, vulnerable and murky feelings that he really is in no position to help you with - and you perhaps touched areas in him that are equally as tender, vulnerable and murky. You did not fuck up, you just followed the standard relationship advice that sharing difficult feelings is what we all should be doing if we want good relationships - and that's actually not what makes for solid and positive change.
I'd be happy to say more, but I don't want to intrude on your blog if you're not looking for more on this. My point is only that there are many ways to get to a much better place with our fears than laying them out for our partners to hopefully help us with.
So it's your date #6 or #10 or something. Not that many yet.
MsEmotional
Member
I think my therapist’s point was that he must have moments of vulnerability and that he is holding back from expressing those to me — perhaps because he doesn’t know that that is something I care to hear. That what makes me feel so anxious is that he doesn’t express any vulnerability to me and so I feel like it is a BFD every time I need to work up the courage to express my feelings or raise an issue. I realized, reflecting on his comment about how I probably am making whatever the issue is a bigger deal in my mind than he will think it is, that he has never had to approach me and ask, “Hey, can we talk?” the way that I have. In fact, he has never expressed any kind of emotional response (fear, joy, appreciation, worries, etc) about our relationship. And that was what my therapist was getting at — that if there isn’t some level of balance in sharing and expression, then it isn’t a relationship that I am ever going to be comfortable being myself in.
MsEmotional
Member
I think I calculated that we are on date 14. We started with dates every 2 weeks and have had some scheduling difficulties that have spread them out more.
And yes, I think that the disparity between the length of time we have been dating and the actual amount of time that we spend in each other’s presence is part of it. He makes me so nervous that I don’t really want to see him more frequently than every 2 weeks (nor could I, even if I wanted to) but as a result I feel like he barely knows me for someone I have been dating for 6 months.
I quote these to highlight how Whiskers doesn't show emotion. Which is quite typical of males! Maybe with your other partners it's different. Which is why things are going well with them.
But Whiskers is maybe just enjoying "fun" with you. Sex, good times, light conversation. You however, want to be fully human with him, deeper than surface "fun." You want the whole package.
You say he "makes" your nervous. But no one can make anyone feel anything. Take responsibility for what is yours. You feel uncomfortable around Whiskers because he doesn't show a full range of human emotion around you. However, he may never feel relaxed enough to get to this point. Especially since now you only see each other once a month. He may have chosen you because you have 2 other partners, so he has figured his role is just to be the "fun, casual" partner. That is what he wants. Can you live with that?
Personally, if I had deep relationships with 2 men, I'd be OK with having a third guy, a more casual sex partner, who was fun or funny or really cute eye candy, or relaxing to be around, and the sex was AWESOME. I really enjoy sex while it's happening. And it's a great stress relief that can make my whole week feel brighter. I might feel a tinge of regret this great handsome well-hung, intelligent man only wanted me for sex and fun, and wasn't interested in going higher on the relationship escalator, but I might adjust if it seemed worth it over all. That's the good thing about polyamory, not every partner needs to be the "whole package." We can meet them where they are at, if other things in the relationship make it worth it.
You weren't "stupid." You aren't a "fuck up." Those are self-bullying words. Why be your own bully?
MsEmotional
Member
Thank you for your insights. I think you may be right that the (in)frequency of contact may prevent us from developing the kind of relationship I am expecting/wanting.
I dont’t think I am up for just being fun. That’s not really how my brain operates. I can want to have a more limited relationship (never move in together, never have kids together) but it isn’t a relationship to me until I can fully relax and trust the other person — and I can’t really trust someone if they always feel distant to me.
Maybe that is ultimately what I need to figure out — are his goals for the degree of intimacy misaligned with mine?
I don't know that I would _assume_ that Whiskers only wants fun - I mean, honestly Artist and I floated in that "just fun, not really talking about emotions" space for _years_, slowly moving from "every 2-3 weeks" to "every week or more" - but eventually it became something that is FAR more than "just fun". But that also was much easier because neither of us, I think, had an internal timeline of what it should be by what date (though I admit it was very different than any relationship I've ever had, and if you flip back in my blog a few years, it certainly caused some angst at the time).
I agree that some idea of the goal or at least the ... possibilities? would be useful for you, though.
I agree that some idea of the goal or at least the ... possibilities? would be useful for you, though.
breathemusic
Active member
Does he not talk to you about ANYTHING emotional? Nothing that he's clearly excited about? Really happy about? Etc.?
I guess I'm wondering if him not being open emotionally is about ALL emotions and he's a bit more "robotic" (I don't mean that in a negative way, I myself am jokingly called a robot by a friend). Or is it just that you want him to be more open with his negative feelings of vulnerability and insecurity? If it's only about him not being vulnerable vs him not being emotional.... is it possible that he just ISN'T feeling vulnerable/insecure and so he has nothing to share? If he's feeling really happy with where things are at and enjoys the time you spend together and the conversation that you have, etc. he may not actually really have any insecure or negative or sad thoughts to share. That's not a bad thing. Has he actually indicated in any way that he's holding back?
I guess I'm wondering if him not being open emotionally is about ALL emotions and he's a bit more "robotic" (I don't mean that in a negative way, I myself am jokingly called a robot by a friend). Or is it just that you want him to be more open with his negative feelings of vulnerability and insecurity? If it's only about him not being vulnerable vs him not being emotional.... is it possible that he just ISN'T feeling vulnerable/insecure and so he has nothing to share? If he's feeling really happy with where things are at and enjoys the time you spend together and the conversation that you have, etc. he may not actually really have any insecure or negative or sad thoughts to share. That's not a bad thing. Has he actually indicated in any way that he's holding back?
MsEmotional
Member
So here’s where this all gets really interesting for me to contemplate....because no, I don’t get the impression that he is holding back at all. I had frames it in terms of asking him if he is comfortable kind of in the hopes that he WAS holding back for some reason, but really I am pretty sure that his affect is representative of exactly the depth of his emotions — and that is what makes me feel so insecure.
It’s the fact that I don’t think he is holding anything back that makes me feel like a mess — as far as I can tell, he is totally content with how things are and has neither worries and concerns, nor giddy excitement....about anything, but especially not about me. So if I am giddy or excited or worried or anxious (and, true to my screenname, I am all of these things), I feel like I am showing him that I care. Whether I am feeling good or bad about something...I care and I am showing that I care. At the end of the day, I don’t know if he cares about this relationship. I know he likes it. I know that it brings him some sense of happiness. But I don’t know if he cares one way or another about whether it continues, whether it grows, or whether it ends.
MsEmotional
Member
So here’s where this all gets really interesting for me to contemplate....because no, I don’t get the impression that he is holding back at all. I had framed it in terms of asking him if he is comfortable kind of in the hopes that he WAS holding back for some reason, but really I am pretty sure that his affect is representative of exactly the depth of his emotions — and that is what makes me feel so insecure.
It’s the fact that I don’t think he is holding anything back that makes me feel like a mess — as far as I can tell, he is totally content with how things are and has neither worries and concerns, nor giddy excitement....about anything, but especially not about me. So if I am giddy or excited or worried or anxious (and, true to my screenname, I am all of these things), I feel like I am showing him that I care. Whether I am feeling good or bad about something...I care and I am showing that I care. At the end of the day, I don’t know if he cares about this relationship. I know he likes it. I know that it brings him some sense of happiness. But I don’t know if he cares one way or another about whether it continues, whether it grows, or whether it ends.
So yeah, maybe he is just kind of robotic and that is just his normal state... but if my normal state is emotional, then is this just not a relationship that I can be comfortable in?
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Maybe you could ask about that specifically?
What causes the discomfort? Is it that you feel you can't be emotional around him if he isn't?
What happens if you share your emotions without expecting him to share emotions back? SOME people are shallow in their inner life, but still good listeners. They can give valuable feedback that will help you snap out of whatever emotional tangle. Of course, other people can't handle displays of emotion.
Try finding out if there's a way you can be comfortably yourself around him by experimenting in a reasonable pace.
Ms Emotional, icesong and breathesmusic bring up interesting thoughts to me about my partner Pixi's bf. They also had a very slow start to their relationship. Her bf was slow to be open and vulnerable. I'm thinking something just built in him, and things about his childhood making him have issues around trust.
At first she wondered if he was somewhat on the autism spectrum, but after a while she decided that probably wasn't the case.
Pixi would be all giddy and NRE lala with him, and he'd gently laugh and tell her she was like a lovestruck schoolgirl. But he kept wanting her around. It's been 5, nearly 6 years now. He is still not one to say I love you. But he will say he misses her a lot and is sad when their usual date gets postponed for whatever reason. Anyone can tell she is really important to him. It's just been a very gradual evolution of trust. She is more on the submissive side, so she just let him be him, and never acted impatient or pushy. And they are solid.
At first she wondered if he was somewhat on the autism spectrum, but after a while she decided that probably wasn't the case.
Pixi would be all giddy and NRE lala with him, and he'd gently laugh and tell her she was like a lovestruck schoolgirl. But he kept wanting her around. It's been 5, nearly 6 years now. He is still not one to say I love you. But he will say he misses her a lot and is sad when their usual date gets postponed for whatever reason. Anyone can tell she is really important to him. It's just been a very gradual evolution of trust. She is more on the submissive side, so she just let him be him, and never acted impatient or pushy. And they are solid.
MsEmotional
Member
The Sadness of Being Right
I had written a whole long post this morning and it got deleted....I’m going to try to recreate it.
In a nutshell, I hate it when my instincts were right and I have confirmation that all my fears were legit. My anxiety goes away, but it is replaced with grief.
Whiskers and I talked again. Here are some bullets of what was said:
1. He doesn’t have any problems with our relationship and so he hasn’t brought anything to me to be concerned about, but he knows that he could if he needed to.
2. His lack of emotional intelligence/expression is something that he is aware of and has impacted other relationships, but he doesn’t know how to fix it.
3. He rarely ever expresses an emotional need, but when he does, he goes to his wife because he is closest to her.
4. He never wanted or expected our relationship to become deeper than it is — he wasn’t looking for emotional depth in his other relationships since becoming poly.
I think he could sense how sad this all made me and he spent a fair amount of the time in the latter part of our conversation trying to figure out what he needed to say to fix it. It was really heartbreaking because there was nothing that he could say that would “fix” it — at one point he said, “okay, so what I am hearing is that you want me to clarify my feelings for you,” and I nearly burst into tears because the idea of him telling me — again — that he just wants to have fun and enjoy sex and spend time together but not have it ever go any deeper than that and what’s so wrong with that? made me feel so sad and empty and awful. I said, “no, I really don’t think you need to clarify that agin. I feel like you have done that, it just sounds like at this point I need to figure out if that’s the kind of relationship that I can be in. I don’t have any experience with the kind of relationship you are describing. I don’t know how to be in a relationship that doesn’t have an emotional core.”
We left things unresolved. He recognized that my feelings were too confused for me to “make a decision.” That this was a good and important conversation, but that it had raised other feelings that I needed to deal with.
I feel so sad. This is always my worst fear with kinda-distant guys: that the reason they are kinda-distant isn’t that they are afraid to express their feelings about me, but that they just don’t really have feelings for me period. I guess I shouldn’t take it personally — the way he described his reactions to previous break-ups was that he was always, “oh well, that’s over.” (And this is what clued him in to the that maybe he doesn’t have a lot of emotional intelligence.) So the fact that he is kinda “I could take it or leave it” about this relationship is not a new phenomenon for him.
I’ve been trying to think about whether I could be happy continuing like this with him — if I can be satisfied with what we have, now knowing that that’s really all there is or will ever be. I just don’t know.
I had written a whole long post this morning and it got deleted....I’m going to try to recreate it.
In a nutshell, I hate it when my instincts were right and I have confirmation that all my fears were legit. My anxiety goes away, but it is replaced with grief.
Whiskers and I talked again. Here are some bullets of what was said:
1. He doesn’t have any problems with our relationship and so he hasn’t brought anything to me to be concerned about, but he knows that he could if he needed to.
2. His lack of emotional intelligence/expression is something that he is aware of and has impacted other relationships, but he doesn’t know how to fix it.
3. He rarely ever expresses an emotional need, but when he does, he goes to his wife because he is closest to her.
4. He never wanted or expected our relationship to become deeper than it is — he wasn’t looking for emotional depth in his other relationships since becoming poly.
I think he could sense how sad this all made me and he spent a fair amount of the time in the latter part of our conversation trying to figure out what he needed to say to fix it. It was really heartbreaking because there was nothing that he could say that would “fix” it — at one point he said, “okay, so what I am hearing is that you want me to clarify my feelings for you,” and I nearly burst into tears because the idea of him telling me — again — that he just wants to have fun and enjoy sex and spend time together but not have it ever go any deeper than that and what’s so wrong with that? made me feel so sad and empty and awful. I said, “no, I really don’t think you need to clarify that agin. I feel like you have done that, it just sounds like at this point I need to figure out if that’s the kind of relationship that I can be in. I don’t have any experience with the kind of relationship you are describing. I don’t know how to be in a relationship that doesn’t have an emotional core.”
We left things unresolved. He recognized that my feelings were too confused for me to “make a decision.” That this was a good and important conversation, but that it had raised other feelings that I needed to deal with.
I feel so sad. This is always my worst fear with kinda-distant guys: that the reason they are kinda-distant isn’t that they are afraid to express their feelings about me, but that they just don’t really have feelings for me period. I guess I shouldn’t take it personally — the way he described his reactions to previous break-ups was that he was always, “oh well, that’s over.” (And this is what clued him in to the that maybe he doesn’t have a lot of emotional intelligence.) So the fact that he is kinda “I could take it or leave it” about this relationship is not a new phenomenon for him.
I’ve been trying to think about whether I could be happy continuing like this with him — if I can be satisfied with what we have, now knowing that that’s really all there is or will ever be. I just don’t know.
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SEASONEDpolyAgain
Well-known member
My guess is that you are indeed struggling to find an emotional core without the option of an escalating relationship. My emotional core would be in the shared memories and intimacy we have. Of course, time would deepen that emotional core unless one of us were actively preventing it.
Basically I think you will have a relationship that increases in emotional intimacy over time if you just spend time together that you both enjoy. I think you feel (maybe subconsciously) that can't happen without being somewhere in the escalator.
Basically I think you will have a relationship that increases in emotional intimacy over time if you just spend time together that you both enjoy. I think you feel (maybe subconsciously) that can't happen without being somewhere in the escalator.
MsEmotional
Member
Maybe.
I guess I see the relationship escalator as more of a set of social expectations more than a difference in feelings. And maybe that is part of what is going on here....but a big thing for me is that I am falling for him. That is how I am — I can’t have sex with someone and spend time with them and think they are funny and have common interests with them without falling in love with them. I am actively holding back on saying “I love you” because I know he isn’t even remotely there yet — but now it sounds like he won’t *ever* feel the same for me. The discrepancy between our feelings for each other is only going to grow wider if this is just how he is. I am scared of the day when we break up and I am heartbroken and crying while he is shrugging, “oh well. That’s over.”
I guess what makes me so sad is that I want him to have some feelings for me that are deeper than, “I like having sex and talking with her.” I just feel so alone in my feelings for him.
He texted me yesterday saying that he felt sad and inadequate after our conversation. He said he feels like he is deficient as a human being, but doesn’t know how to change it. I feel bad — I know he wishes he could flip a switch and meet my needs....I wish it didn’t bother me that he is like this.
I don’t know what to do. I just feel like I can see the writing on the wall and it spells out “you are going to get hurt.”