Cheating

[ElMango]

I saw in a different discussion group on facebook the idea that if someone cheat, it can be a sign that they are not inherently mono. It is a seemingly common opinion in at least this facebook group.

I wanted to see what people thought of this idea, and how different opinions lined up with mine.

I disagree with that idea.

To me, the urge to cheat can absolutely be a sign of not being mono. It can also be a sign of relationship issues, or personal issues.

To me, the actual ACTION of cheating, while at times I can sympathize with, is not a sign of not being mono. The action is a sign of a lack of communication, or needs not being met even with communication, and the unwillingness (or if in an abusive relationship, inability) to terminate the relationship based on incompatibility. Either way, you are not DOING the action because you are inherently poly, but because there are issues you are, in most cases, choosing not to face and/or deal with. Most times, it is a selfish choice (again, not saying the selfish choice is always one I don't understand people making)

I do believe that humans are flawed and all make mistakes and thus cheating doesn't make you forever trash and irredeemable. I do believe it is a mistake that people can learn and grow from. But either way it isn't a choice that should have been made.

What do others think?

 

[Magdlyn]

I saw in a different discussion group on Facebook the idea that if someone cheats, it can be a sign that they are not inherently mono. It is a seemingly common opinion, at least in this Facebook group.

I wanted to see what people thought of this idea, and how different opinions lined up with mine.

I disagree with that idea.

To me, the urge to cheat can absolutely be a sign of not being mono. It can also be a sign of relationship issues, or personal issues.

I think it's entirely obvious that humankind is not naturally monogamous, despite the practice of it in "civilization" and the patriarchy.

Monogamy was not the norm for humans for a million years, or 3 million years, depending on how you define the category of "human." Anthropology backs this up. (Read the book Sex at Dawn.)

Therefore, it is monogamy that is unnatural. Marriage is a state institution that has, until 100 years ago in the West and still ongoing in many areas, given ownership of a woman to a man. It controls women's sexuality (and not men's) so a man can be sure to only raise his own biological young (or so he hopes), and only have them as heirs. Cheating on a relationship is one way humans get the variety in sex and love partners that is only natural to crave.

Generally men are excused from the consequences of cheating, whereas women can be and are executed for it, or receive harsher judgment at the very least. Women are even executed for being raped. Tough luck! You are TAINTED! You might have a kid not your husband's!

To me, the actual ACTION of cheating, which at times I can sympathize with, is not a sign of not being mono. The action is a sign of a lack of communication, or needs not being met even with communication, and the unwillingness (or if in an abusive relationship, inability) to terminate the relationship based on incompatibility. Either way, you are not DOING the action because you are inherently poly, but because there are issues you are, in most cases, choosing not to face and/or deal with. Most times, it is a selfish choice (again, not saying the selfish choice is always one I don't understand people making).

Your key phrase is "needs not being met." If humans evolved to "need" multiple partners, as is evidenced by cheating, porn, sexy movies, books, serial monogamy, etc., how is having more than one relationship inherently selfish? Is it selfish of me to want variety in the food I eat? To change up the arrangement of my furniture? To take a trip outside my hometown on vacation? To change my hair style or color? Or to even have a closet full of clothes instead of just 3 outfits?

And if a couple has become incompatible, and can't work things out, in a non-marriage oriented society, they would just part. Many relationships serve needs for a few years, or even many years, and then just sort of peter out. But until just recently, there was such a huge social stigma around divorce, people would do anything to "keep up appearances," and stay married. Indeed, divorce can be a death sentence for a woman and maybe even her children in some nations when women have no other means of support than marriage.

I do believe that humans are flawed and all make mistakes and thus cheating doesn't make you forever trash and irredeemable. I do believe it is a mistake that people can learn and grow from. But either way it isn't a choice that should have been made.

What do others think?

I do believe society's flaw is in insisting on marriage as the only place to have romance and sex. And we humans do what we can to get out of that prison, according to the intensity of our desire over what we perceive as duty.

The rise of feminism and emerging rights for women is what allows us to leave marriage and even unmarried monogamy behind as the only choice for romantic partnerships.

 

[Al99]

Magdlyn wrote:

I think it's entirely obvious that humankind is not naturally monogamous, despite the practice of it in "civilization" and the patriarchy.

Monogamy was not the norm for humans for a million years, or 3 million years, depending on how you define the category of "human." Anthropology backs this up. (Read the book Sex at Dawn.)

Therefore, it is monogamy that is unnatural. Marriage is a state institution that has, until 100 years ago in the West and still ongoing in many areas, given ownership of a woman to a man. It controls women's sexuality (and not men's) so a man can be sure to only raise his own biological young (or so he hopes), and only have them as heirs. Cheating on a relationship is one way humans get the variety in sex and love partners that is only natural to crave.

I think Magdlyn's statement is dead on. After a lot of reading and study over the last few years, I have come to the personal conclusion that there are very few, if any, who are truly hard wired for mono - as evidenced by the prevalence of infidelity in our society. And for most (if not all) of those who chose to remain faithful, they still experience the feelings, temptations, and thoughts of being with others - sexually, romantically, or both. Most Christian Evangelicals would even concede that "everyone is tempted". It sure seems to me that monogamy is not the natural human condition, but a lifestyle choice made - and one that is strongly influenced by societal conditioning and religious belief.

That is not to say that mono is not a valid lifestyle choice and that many may be strongly inclined to make that choice - even while still experiencing the (at least occasional) thoughts, temptations, and fantasies of being with others.

In this situation, my take would be that the issue is not about being "mono", but about failing to honor a commitment to be monogamous. But, as the OP, pointed out ... we are all only human....

I do believe that humans are flawed and all make mistakes and thus cheating doesn't make you forever trash and irredeemable. I do believe it is a mistake that people can learn and grow from. But either way it isn't a choice that should have been made.

Just my two cents worth..... Al

 

[ElMango]

I think it's entirely obvious that humankind is not naturally monogamous, despite the practice of it in "civilization" and the patriarchy.

Agreed

Cheating on a relationship is one way humans get the variety in sex and love partners that is only natural to crave.

But do humans not have the ability to, ya know, resist those cravings? To talk about and express needs and cravings? To be ethical? Ethics are a human creation, but we live in a human society. If you have agreements with partner(s), it's not ethical to just ignore them and do whatever. Poly is ETHICAL non-mono.

Your key phrase is "needs not being met." If humans evolved to "need" multiple partners, as is evidenced by cheating, porn, sexy movies, books, serial monogamy, etc., how is having more than one relationship inherently selfish?

It isn't. I'm expressly talking about CHEATING as a sign that someone is inherently 'poly'. Not marriage.

The act of cheating, breaking that agreement for your own satisfaction, is selfish. Not having multiple partners. I had urges to cheat as a teen, but even with my frontal cortex not full developed, I was able to be like "that's a dick move let's not do that". It wasn't even hard to manage resisting. Resisting ice cream is harder.

I do believe society's flaw is in insisting on marriage as the only place to have romance and sex.

Agreed

The rise of feminism and emerging rights for women is what allows us to leave marriage and even unmarried monogamy behind as the only choice for romantic partnerships.

Agreed

 

[Magdlyn]

But do humans not have the ability to, ya know, resist those cravings? To talk about and express needs and cravings? To be ethical? Ethics are a human creation, but we live in a human society. If you have agreements with partner(s), it's not ethical to just ignore them and do whatever. Poly is ETHICAL non-mono.

Of course, people that practice polyamory, like us, think it is ethical. Many monogamous people think we are sex-crazed perverts.

Many so-called monogamous people would much rather cheat than ethically Open their marriage or relationship. Both partners may be cheating and be more or less consciously aware their partner is. But they choose to pretend it isn't happening. This allows them to have the social status of being in a socially sanctioned mono relationship, while still "having some fun on the side."

This may seem "selfish" to you, but the people living like this actually see it as a kindness. And in a way, it is.

The act of cheating, breaking that agreement for your own satisfaction, is selfish. Not having multiple partners. I had urges to cheat as a teen, but even with my frontal cortex not full developed, I was able to be like "that's a dick move, let's not do that". It wasn't even hard to manage resisting. Resisting ice cream is harder.

You're entitled to your opinion! It's kind of black and white. I know a lot of people would rather cheat and be cheated on, than forge ahead as pioneers into modern polyamory.

So many mono people, for example, have no desire for sex with their partner. It may be a power play, it may be exhaustion, boredom, illness, it could be for any reason. They won't work on this, they won't seek counseling, they just stonewall and refuse. Yet, they won't give "permission" for their partner, who desires them, to satisfy their need for sex, if not with them, with someone outside the relationship either. Now who is selfish? So, what does the partner that needs sex do? Accept the path of constant solo masturbation for the rest of their life (ugh, not natural or satisfying, very lonely), or discreetly cheat?

 

[kdt26417]

Most people are more accepting of cheating than they are of polyamory. "Sure," they think, "cheating is bad ... but polyamory is much much worse. Polyamory is cheating dressed up to look like something good. That is a terrible thing to do. If you are going to cheat, at least let it look like the bad thing that it is." For many people, cheating is even (wrong but) forgivable ... as most people recognize that we can be sorely tempted.

By contrast, most poly people are extremely condemning of cheating, and will never say that it should be tolerated even a little. This contrast makes it extremely difficult for polyamorists and monogamists to have a conversation with each other about monogamy, cheating, and polyamory. Until one or both sides moderate/s their view, poly will continue to be sharply condemned by the monogamous world.

Many people are polyamorous at heart, but have been programmed by parents, teachers, and society in general, to believe that any kind of nonmonogamy is always an unhealthy thing. Most people are taught to not even think about polyamory. To not even know about it. So, if they are going to do anything nonmonogamous, they believe that cheating is their only option. For this reason among others, I am generally sympathetic toward people who cheat.

Technically, cheating is not poly. Polyamory is defined as (emotionally-involved) nonmonogamy with the knowledge and consent of all involved. Cheating is at odds with that definition, as it is defined as nonmonogamy without one's partner's knowledge and/or consent. So, cheating is not a polyamorous act. It can be an indicator, however, that deep down the cheater wishes they could be poly, but thinks they don't have that option.

 

[FallenAngelina]

Many so-called monogamous people would much rather cheat than ethically Open their marriage or relationship. Both partners may be cheating and be more or less consciously aware their partner is. But they choose to pretend it isn't happening. This allows them to have the social status of being in a socially sanctioned mono relationship, while still "having some fun on the side."

This may seem "selfish" to you, but the people living like this actually see it as a kindness. And in a way, it is.

Yup.

To say that polyamory is the ethical choice is to live in a poly bubble. Sure, it's ethical for the few people who see it as ethical, but "discretion" is the ethical choice for most people who want to have multiple partners.

Cheating has zero to do with whether a person is monogamous, it has to do with choices based on the social circumstances.

 

[ElMango]

How is cheating on someone a kindness simply because they don't know?

In my experience, you find out eventually. And when you do it's even more devastating. Even if you never find out...I do not see kindness behind lying.

 

[Magdlyn]

How is cheating on someone a kindness simply because they don't know?

In my experience, you find out eventually. And when you do it's even more devastating. Even if you never find out...I do not see kindness behind lying.

We explained, but maybe you need a concrete example.

I have known someone for 10 years, he is a virile young man, now in his very early 30s. He met and married a woman he really loves about 7 years ago. She is 7 years older than him. 2 1/2 years ago, they had a child. They both work outside the home full time. The toddler has gone to daycare since she was an infant.

Every day they have a routine. They get up, start getting ready, wake up the baby, get her and themselves washed, fed, dressed. One of them takes the kid to daycare. The other goes straight to work. They both work hard all day. At 5, the man goes and picks up the toddler. Brings her home, plays a little, makes dinner. Wife gets home. They eat. Then it's time to bathe the baby, make everyone lunches for the next day, do dishes, lay out tomorrow's clothes, clean up clutter. Get baby in pajamas and do her bedtime routine. By this time, the woman is exhausted, and once baby is in bed, so is she.

The guy though, he's now ready for a release before he can sleep. He needs a daily orgasm. So, night after night, he's on his own. Takes matters into his own hands. Looks for some porn to help. Finally he gets off and goes to bed.

He's tried to interest his wife in sex for 2 1/2 years, since she recovered from the birth. But ever since the kid came, she's lost all interest. He finds sitters, he takes her on dates, again and again he gets in bed next to her, she doesn't want to be touched, she won't touch him. He's tried jerking off next to her. She ignores it. Nothing he does get a rise out of her.

I should add, the toddler is a sound sleeper, and sleeps all night, so their sex wouldn't be interrupted, nor would they disturb her, she's in her own room, door closed.

He's only 31. They have sex about once every 4 months, or even longer, 6 months. No bj on his birthday, no sex on their anniversary, on Valentine's Day, no Christmas present. He has hope someday, things will improve. He has even respectfully asked her to Open so he can actually be sexual with someone besides his hand. She freaks out and refuses.

This woman. He loves her. He wants her. He is so frustrated. They get along great except for this one thing. They share interests. They support each other. They share a friend circle. The friends swap babysitting. He can't tell his friends about his lack of sex, there would be gossip. I'm out of that loop. He told me.

He could go and have casual sex...(he's good looking, tall, great in bed, with stamina, generous to a partner, a bit kinky and imaginative, endowed, ask me how I know). But he's trying to respect her. How long is he expected to remain faithful, ElMango? He doesn't want a divorce. He loves her and she's a great partner as far as other interests, a good mother to the child.

One issue is that, he wanted a baby, but she had said she wasn't interested. But they stayed together anyway. When conception accidentally happened, they decided to keep the baby, and the woman says she is glad to be a mother after all. (But one wonders... My theory is, she had just enough intimacy ability to have a sexual relationship or a parental relationship, not both.)

He's pretty sure she'd turn a blind eye to him going elsewhere for sex, as long as he was discreet. He'd be more relaxed and there wouldn't be any pressure on her, now that she's apparently going to be asexual for an undetermined time. Maybe forever.

 

[ElMango]

How long is he expected to remain faithful, ElMango? He doesn't want a divorce. He loves her and she's a great partner as far as other interests, a good mother to the child.

One issue is that, he wanted a baby, but she had said she wasn't interested. But they stayed together anyway. When conception accidentally happened, they decided to keep the baby, and the woman says she is glad to be a mother after all.

I expect to remain faithful as long as he CHOOSES to be in that relationship. ESPECIALLY because they got married knowing they had a difference in want of children, and ESPECIALLY because sexual issues after childbirth like this aren't actually uncommon. It took someone I know 2 years to become sexual again.

Also if she'd turn a blind eye then they should, ya know, clarify about the different TYPES of non monogamy.

He may not want a divorce, but if he is that unsatisfied and they are no longer compatible then leave and let themselves both be able to find someone more compatible. MANY people don't want to break up but do due to incompatibility.

I mean, Kevin so far also has given the only explanation that can explain certain actions but certainly doesn't EXCUSE them.

Lying simply because you won't get caught isn't kind.

And, just to bring things back to my OP; especially since cheating can happen in OPEN RELATIONSHIPS, that alone is a sign that the ACTION of cheating is inherently a sign of poly.

 

[Magdlyn]

I expect to remain faithful as long as he CHOOSES to be in that relationship. ESPECIALLY because they got married knowing they had a difference in want of children, and ESPECIALLY because sexual issues after childbirth like this aren't actually uncommon. It took someone I know 2 years to become sexual again.

Also if she'd turn a blind eye then they should, ya know, clarify about the different TYPES of non monogamy.

He may not want a divorce, but if he is that unsatisfied and they are no longer compatible then leave and let themselves both be able to find someone more compatible. MANY people don't want to break up but do due to incompatibility.

I mean, Kevin so far also has given the only explanation that can explain certain actions but certainly doesn't EXCUSE them.

Lying simply because you won't get caught isn't kind.

And, just to bring things back to my OP; especially since cheating can happen in OPEN RELATIONSHIPS, that alone is a sign that the ACTION of cheating is inherently a sign of poly.

Mango, you have 2 partners. I am not sure, but I assume all three of you have healthy libidos and you all have regular sex. Whatever that is. Once a day, 3x a week, once a month. And you're all happy in that. You're compatible romantically, as friends, and sexually.

Since monogamy is unnatural, and divorce is sad and difficult, especially when there are kids, and polyamory is extremely new and not seen as "normal" yet, most people who are incompatible sexually, but get along really great in other areas, just suck it up and have an elephant in the room, or cheat, or at least go get a lap dance or something. Many get a "work wife" or "work husband," and flirt, and have lunches together with long heart to heart talks, where they seethe with barely suppressed passion. Etc.

I had 3 kids in 5 years. My sex drive dwindled. I was exhausted once the kids were in bed. But once my youngest was sleeping through the night, which actually took 4 damn years, my libido came roaring back!

Even so, I managed to allow my ex h into my vagina once a month or so, all through those exhausting demanding years. And it was THREE kids. And they were all terrible light sleepers, had massive pain with teething, and so on. And I don't think my ex and I were as compatible as my friend and his wife are. We had other issues. Yet, out of a sense of duty, and just to keep his resentment down a bit, so I wouldn't get punished passive aggressively, I had sex once a month. And the funny thing was, he was great at pleasing me, and once I actually got into having a sex session, I loved it. I'd feel good afterwards too. Partly oxytocin and partly because I got the h off my back for a few weeks. I was mostly just in mama mode. But again, 3 kids, who didn't sleep through the night. We did get interrupted during sex sometimes when we tried.

In my friend's case, they only have ONE kid, she sleeps all night! Their daycare provider offers overnights at her house, so they could ostensibly have an entire night alone basically whenever they want. But the wife isn't interested.

Again, back to your OP, cheating doesn't somehow "prove" you're polyamorous. I believe all humans are inherently polysexual, if not also polyromantic. "Civilization" has thwarted us and perverted our true natures. It has created a patriarchy and created the class system, and enslaved women.

 

[ElMango]

Mango, you have 2 partners. I am not sure, but I assume all three of you have healthy libidos and you all have regular sex. Whatever that is. Once a day, 3x a week, once a month. And you're all happy in that. You're compatible romantically, as friends, and sexually.

Your friend and his wife sound compatible as friends to me; they already have two massive compatibility issues-Children which they pushed through, and now sex.

We do have regular sex...but when Z and I weren't practicing poly, and were a LDR, no one cheated even without sex for, especially us, a year. No kids, just school.

Since monogamy is unnatural, and divorce is sad and difficult, especially when there are kids, and polyamory is extremely new and not seen as "normal" yet, most people who are incompatible sexually, but get along really great in other areas, just suck it up and have an elephant in the room

Breaking up is sad in almost every case for at least one party...but I mean...having an elephant in the room and sucking it up are choices.

Even so, I managed to allow my ex h into my vagina once a month or so, all through those exhausting demanding years. And it was THREE kids. And they were all terrible light sleepers, had massive pain with teething, and so on. And I don't think my ex and I were as compatible as my friend and his wife are. We had other issues. Yet, out of a sense of duty, and just to keep his resentment down a bit, so I wouldn't get punished passive aggressively, I had sex once a month.

Your choice. If I had those same feelings I'd make a different one.

In my friend's case, they only have ONE kid, she sleeps all night!

On this note, I think your previous theory was right on the money. But, such are the consequences of having kids...which is a choice.

He can cheat or... they could break up, they could suffer forever, they could get therapy, they could coparent but not be married, they could eventually open up and have in depth discussions about what that would look like for them. Both of my partners parents are divorced; I asked their input as kids of divorce (my parents are not). They both feel that while the urge to cheat is natural and in many situations, basically to be expected, actions are our control. And that, so long as he chooses to stay then he chooses ethical monogamy.

Again, back to your OP, cheating doesn't somehow "prove" you're polyamorous. I believe all humans are inherently polysexual, if not also polyromantic. "Civilization" has thwarted us and perverted our true natures. It has created a patriarchy and created the class system, and enslaved women.

Agreed

 

[GalaGirl]

I saw in a different discussion group on facebook the idea that if someone cheat, it can be a sign that they are not inherently mono.

I would take it as a sign that they don't keep their Word very well.

My opinion? Humans being humans? They are gonna answer to their highest value. And not everyone is in the same place with moral development, values, personal ethics, etc.

I guess for some people it might be a sign that mono is not a good fit for them. Maybe they never heard of open relationship or poly.

I think it is a choice to make an agreement. Just don't make it, and then there's nothing to cheat on!

1) Don't make any sort of exclusive agreements in the first place if they are gonna pinch.

2) If you made them in good faith, then find out they pinch later? Rather than cheat on the agreements? Could give the heads up that you no longer agree to keep them. Disbanding the agreements is "cleaner" to me than pretending you keep them but really you don't.

But there the highest value is "Clear communication." You have to have that as your highest value to go down that path.

Some people make agreements in bad faith. Like agree to whatever, say whatever, just to gain access to you or keep you around, or maybe just to get in your pants. *shrug* There the highest value they answer to is "What's in it for me? What can I get?"

You don't have to know words like "open relationship" or "polyamory" to not cheat. Most people understand words like "playing the field" or "don't want to go steady" and similar. Could be honest about seeking something more like that -- something NOT exclusive. Or wanting a short term fling or casual sex. But that assumes the highest value for those people is "Being honest."

If they don't value honesty and just want to get in your pants? Or they are one of those people who see personal boundaries as challenges to break down, or they like "the thrill pulling a fast one?" That's what they value then. Thrills and stuff. And poor you if you are in the crosshairs.

How is cheating on someone a kindness simply because they don't know?

Some people really don't want to know. They even say so! They want to be in their bubble undisturbed. They request it and say that's their preference. I'd rather know, but whatever. People don't have to have the same preferences/values/personal ethics as me. I don't want to date people who request I help "bubble" them -- that sort of caretaking is not my cup of tea. But if their highest value is "I want to be in my bubble! Ignorance is bliss! Maintain my bubble for me!" then they are gonna fight you if you try to unbubble them. They don't want it.

Other times the cheater cheats and then calls it "being kind" or "don't want to hurt them" when really? It's not taking personal responsibility. It's not wanting to deal with the reaction/response from their person to them cheating on the agreement. The highest value there is "avoidance." Like a variation on "What's in it for me?" and "My comfort above all others." They avoid taking responsibility for their behavior choices and "whitewash" it to themselves so they can do ugh while still believing they are "a nice person." Like mental gymnastics or something.

Other people? They want to "look the other way." They know its going on and don't care or pretend not to care. Like... do whatever, but discreetly.
They like the "social standing" of being a couple or being married. So if you give me what I want that way? I agree to look the other way if you are taking up with some other person on the side discreetly.

I find that arrangement weird but again... people don't all have to share my preferences, values or personal ethics. But that case values "social standing" and "discretion" above all else. So they don't care about their partner having someone on the side so long as appearances are kept up and they are top dog.

I don't know if that helps you any.

I think mono is a social construct, and people as general humans are more apt to seek variety.

But I see the question of "cheating" more as an ethics thing that tells more about the character of the person and their ability to keep their Word than telling about their preference for relationship model.

Cuz it isn't like poly is magic or something. People can cheat on their poly agreements too.

Galagirl

 

[Magdlyn]

GG, I agree with you in general. But what about the case of my friend? Does he just kept being celibate forever? Does he tear apart his cute little family just because his wife has become asexual? Does he live on hope that some day she will change?

He's so young and his needs are so unmet. I feel badly for him. But he really likes living with his wife. He loves her very much. He wants her.

I wish he and she could come to a polyamorous agreement.

 

[vinsanity0]

Interesting discussion. Like GG, I see it as more of an ethics question. If someone agrees to monogamy, they should keep their word or renegotiate. However, it's not really that cut and dried.

Is it really cheating if the other person doesn't want to know? When my wife and I decided to reopen our relationship, she initially wanted DADT. I didn't want that because it would have involved lying to her. So I would not have been cheating, but I wouldn't have been honest either.

I also dated two monogamous women. Neither wanted poly, yet both said they assumed I would get some sex on the side while I was on the road. Both were fine with that as long as they didn't know.

None of that seems logical to me. I can only guess that mono is so ingrained into society that the illusion of mono is more acceptable to a lot of people than an ethical open relationship.

BTW, I think the original discussion referenced in the OP used "poly" incorrectly. People often say poly when they mean non-monogamy. It would be more correct to say cheating is indicative of a non-monogamous nature, not necessarily a polyamorous nature.

 

[ElMango]

BTW, I think the original discussion referenced in the OP used "poly" incorrectly. People often say poly when they mean non-monogamy. It would be more correct to say cheating is indicative of a non-monogamous nature, not necessarily a polyamorous nature.

I for sure meant poly. The original post and some comments I saw on Facebook directly meant and stated that they were referring to poly and the idea that cheating means you inherently want to be and practice poly.

Cheating is practicing non-mono, and absolutely an indicator that being non-mono is what you want for any number of reasons. It still doesn't excuse cheating imo, but it's more cut and dry about whether it's non mono.

Poly is nonmonogamy, but not all forms of non mono are poly.

As for DADT, it's definitely a strange area for me personally. They're consenting to things not being monogamous, but they want to know nothing. It involves lying, but with their informed consent so...

Cheating and simply not telling them to "be kind" removes their ability to have informed consent.

He's so young and his needs are so unmet. I feel badly for him. But he really likes living with his wife. He loves her very much. He wants her.

I wish he and she could come to a polyamorous agreement.

I agree. It's a sad painful situation that, at least right now, has no obvious easy answers. Maybe things change so they both can happily remain a couple, maybe they change so they are friends who coparent; when love is so there that makes everything feel more complicated.

As an aside, sometimes it's the POLY aspect someone hates, but will DADT about a purely sexual relationship outside marriage (sex workers, tinder etc)

 

[vinsanity0]

I for sure meant poly. The original post and some comments I saw on Facebook directly meant and stated that they were referring to poly and the idea that cheating means you inherently want to be and practice poly.

I know you get the difference. I'm saying the people in the FB group don't understand poly.

 

[ElMango]

I know you get the difference. I'm saying the people in the FB group don't understand poly.

Oooooh! Thank you for the clarification!

 

[GalaGirl]

But what about the case of my friend? Does he just kept being celibate forever? Does he tear apart his cute little family just because his wife has become asexual? Does he live on hope that some day she will change?

It's his choice. Right now his highest value sounds like "keep things the same."

Until he gets tired enough of that, I guess, that he is willing to actually change something and try something new.

I have a friend in a similar situation. Married, kids,etc. She would like to share sex more with spouse, but spouse is not interested. For now, it's a closed sexless marriage. She masturbates to take the edge off, and tells me she's bummed out about her married sex life. But she really values the family they make together with the kids so she's not going to break up the family over it. For her, she values "the family as it is" higher than "my sex life."

Me? I would choose different. Like shake things up, reconnect with spouse, see a doc if it is medical reason, seek a sex therapist, and if need be? Ask for open relationship/poly or move on to divorce. And be a divorced family then. It's still a family. But my higher value is the health of the people as individuals. Not "save the family" like some people go on about "save the marriage." It's still a family to me even if the parents divorce. But people are people and think how they think.

I think she is subsuming herself to the family. And I can tell it wears on her. But she's not willing to change anything right now. So I say nothing and just let her air out when she wants to air out without saying anything much. It's not a thing for me to fix.

I think your friend is like that. Wearing on him. But not willing to change anything right now. So all you can do is let him air out when he wants to air out if you are willing to hear it. But don't try to fix anything. Not yours to fix.

Galagirl

 

[Evie]

GG, I agree with you in general. But what about the case of my friend? Does he just kept being celibate forever? Does he tear apart his cute little family just because his wife has become asexual? Does he live on hope that some day she will change?

He's so young and his needs are so unmet. I feel badly for him. But he really likes living with his wife. He loves her very much. He wants her.

I wish he and she could come to a polyamorous agreement.

I have the "same" friend except they managed two kids and the youngest is now 8. She is asexual now. He (my friend) is in despair over his sexual frustration. But the rest of the relationship works well. He is sexually faithful at this time, however the mere fact that I know all this about them would probably be seen a an infidelity on his part in his wife's eyes. Yet the taboo of not discussing with your guy mates that your wife doesn't want to have sex with you anymore...

And so, I am the confidante.

Would it be so much worse if I was also a fuck buddy? We already have the emotional intimacy. So is he already a cheater? His wife may define it so, although she's comfortable with us being friends. I guess she imagines we only talk about work and more trivial things.

So, physically he's choosing not to cheat with me or any other. Does that make him monogamous? Only sexually. Is he polyamorous? Well, our friendship and the love in it isn't entirely platonic.

Lastly, I think DADT has a bad rap for silly reasons. The notion of lying by omission is negated by DADT. It simply means the primary (usually) partner doesn't want to know. I don't want to know the details of my husband's extramarital sex life either, despite being kitchen table in all other respects. Personally, I think the saddest part about DADT agreements would be in the untimely event of someone's death. If it's the shared lover, you can bet that the legal spouse isn't going to welcome the extramarital partner to any part of the farewell. If it's the extramarital partner who dies, the legal spouse is unlikely to be a good support for their grieving partner.

In short, IMO, most people are hung up on the physical when they talk about cheating. We actually have a very unwell society regarding that, and it is socially constructed and the vast majority of people I've ever known rebel against that social construction more than once in their lives indicating a natural inclination towards non-monogamy. But perhaps my social circles have called like to like.